Other State of Bulky Waters

[Sarpyn]

For a long time, bulky waters have been a dominant force for generations. The legendary suicune, to might swampert; the unbreakable vopareon, to metagame defying gastrodon. Now we are here in 6th gen, we can clearly see the drop of usage in bulky waters.

With inital UU banlist it can be seen that only waters left in OU are rotom-w (which i consider more as an electric type, than a water type) gyarados (bulky variants are pretty rare these days), Starmie (generally used for rapid spinning) azumaril (which doesn't define a bulky water at all) and lastly tentacruel.

Only one of 5 water types that are left in OU is generally used as bulky water, which is only tentacruel. And ironically it is used more as a rapid spinner than a bulky water. That is why i was wondering, are the days of bulky waters over? will mega venusaur replace most of our needs for bulky water in this generation? What will happen to our beloved beard jelly fish?

 

[Nubbins]

Because rotom-w pretty much outclasses every other bulky water. Besides maybe tentacruel's random RS+knockoff support.

 

[sora13]

I honestly think azumarill and rotom-w has taken the role of most of the more traditional bulky waters, what with Rotom's great typing, ability and ability to burn and Azumarill's great offensive prowess courtesy of gen 6. Even though people people don't usually think just "bulky water" when adding these two pokemon to their team, they really add something different that more traditional bulky waters like Suicune or Vaporeon didn't have(Priority Aqua Jet/Momentum thru volt switch) and thus become more relevant to the Gen 6 metagame while still being capable of holding the title of "Bulky Water".

 

[Tacoshack55]

Just because they aren't being used as much doesn't make them any less usable. Anyone can pull off using a bulky water. It really just depends on the play style.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I disagree with the OP that Rotom-W does not fit the bulky water role. After all, Bulky Water-types have always drawn their usefulness and popularity from the following traits:

1-General check to many relevant threats in the metagame
2-Fills that role by having few weaknesses, and decent overall bulk
3-Fills that role by having STAB with very good neutral coverage that can really sting, with or without EV investment
4-Generally easy to switch in and out, and "glues" a team together

Rotom-W fulfills ALL the roles of a traditional bulky water admirably. In many ways, it fills the role better than any single bulky water type has in any previous generation-- which may be why it's seen than any other.

It is a good general check to many threats in the meta, and also out-right-walls several with the right EV investments. Talk about few weaknesses, it only has ONE (not including mold breaker EQ). It has not one, but TWO STABs that have good neutral coverage and can sting without EV investment. Will-o-Wisp and Trick make it even more difficult to switch into, which boosts its effectiveness at the role of a general defensive check. Also, it's easier than any bulky water-type ever at switching in and out, being neutral to SR while immune to spikes and even Paralysis; not to mention Volt-Switch which grabs momentum AND provides STAB.

Looking at tradition...

In BW, the role of bulky water types was warped by the dominance of Drizzle, and a water-type's merit could not be measured without considering its effectiveness in a rain metagame (Politoed/Tentacruel/Jellicent/Gastrodon > Suicune/Vaporeon/Swampert). It's pretty hard to project the DPP notions of water types onto BW Water-types, however Pokemon with good synergy with Politoed (read: not pure Water-types) and ability to abuse Rain or counter Rain teams was inevitably favored.

In DPP, many bulky water types were interchangeable, but a bulky water-type pretty much had to bring some type of major support to be worth considering.
Tentacruel-- Rapid Spin / Toxic Spikes
Swampert-- SR / Roar
Vaporeon-- Wish (plus IMPOSSBLE to break by Mixed Wallbreakers in DPP thanks to Wish)
Suicune-- Chance at a CM Sweep / Roar
If you didn't have some type of specific major team support, you were left out in the cold (see: Milotic).

However, in XY, even with Drizzle dying down, a lot of these support options DPP Water-types brought to the table have become a lot less relevant, while the job of acting as a general defensive check with offensive presence has become a LOT HARDER-- because everything hits harder. A lot of the more traditional bulky water types don't have the same defensive merit they previously had, or aren't as threatening as they were previously (at greater risk to become set-up bait).

Actually, the creation of Ferothorn alone should have doomed the traditional role of bulky water-types, but the ability to abuse Drizzle kept them in the game in BW. It doesn't surprise me that with a Drizzle nerf, their general presence is a lot weaker. Rotom-W's greater general threateningness (Water / Electric / W-o-W / Trick) and ability to build momentum with Volt Switch are really what keep it in the game.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

You should mention Milotic as that is DPP...

 

[TheTraininator]

For a long time, bulky waters have been a dominant force for generations. The legendary suicune, to might swampert; the unbreakable vopareon, to metagame defying gastrodon.

lol vopareon

...What? You expect me to make a legitimate contribution to this thread? Alrighty then...

Bulky Waters certainly nowhere near as prevalent as they used to be, but that doesn't mean they are dead. Though Rotom-W, Gyarados, and Tentacruel maybe the only Water types that made the cutoff who can perform the role of Bulky Water, that doesn't mean they're the only viable ones - try Assault Vest Slowbro or bulky Manaphy, they work great. And in the lower tiers, they're probably going to be as great as ever.

 

[Ryolain]

lol vopareon

...What? You expect me to make a legitimate contribution to this thread? Alrighty then...

Bulky Waters certainly nowhere near as prevalent as they used to be, but that doesn't mean they are dead. Though Rotom-W, Gyarados, and Tentacruel maybe the only Water types that made the cutoff who can perform the role of Bulky Water, that doesn't mean they're the only viable ones - try Assault Vest Slowbro or bulky Manaphy, they work great. And in the lower tiers, they're probably going to be as great as ever.

Well now I can't stop laughing hysterically at Vopareon…thanks for that.

The role of a bulky water as an all-purpose tank to hold your team together has definitely diminished. Most of them haven't kept up with the power creep - that's why stuff like Milotic barely has any relevance in OU anymore. Before, Water was both a decent defensive and offensive type, taking and dishing out a lot of neutral hits. That's not enough anymore, now you need something like Volt Switch or Regenerator Assault Vest or Tail Glow to keep you relevant. It's also why stuff like Bronzong disappeared; just being kind of tanky 2 generations ago doesn't give you any use now when we've got 180 effective BP priority flying around and MLuc OHKOing half the damn game.

 

[Lee]

Since Gen 4 Pokemon has become less about general bulkiness and more about resistances. I don't care how high your defense is, don't even think about switching into a Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat or Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor unless you resist it (the latter has a few exceptions now I admit).

Bulky Waters felt this shift a lot...Water is an okay typing but by itself it only resists Water, Fire, Ice and Steel so people tend to opt for more dual-type Waters and their additional resistances, even though they're often statistically frailer. The result is less Suicune, Swampert and Vaporeon and more Rotom-W, Storm Drain Gastrodon, Jellicent and Azumarill.

 

[TheTraininator]

The role of a bulky water as an all-purpose tank to hold your team together has definitely diminished. Most of them haven't kept up with the power creep - that's why stuff like Milotic barely has any relevance in OU anymore. Before, Water was both a decent defensive and offensive type, taking and dishing out a lot of neutral hits. That's not enough anymore, now you need something like Volt Switch or Regenerator Assault Vest or Tail Glow to keep you relevant. It's also why stuff like Bronzong disappeared; just being kind of tanky 2 generations ago doesn't give you any use now when we've got 180 effective BP priority flying around and MLuc OHKOing half the damn game.

Oh, there is absolutely no doubt they are nowhere near as effective as they used to be, I'm just saying they aren't "dead," they are just much fewer and farther between in OU because, like you said, they need to be very tailored in other niches as well in order to make OU. I have a feeling, however, that RU this gen is going to be massively populated with bulky waters, as I don't see Mega Blastoise, Empoleon, Jellicent, Slowbro/king, Milotic, Vaporeon, and Suicune all hanging out in the same tier, (though to be fair, a lot of those actually did populate UU last gen.)

 

[Ryolain]

Oh, there is absolutely no doubt they are nowhere near as effective as they used to be, I'm just saying they aren't "dead," they are just much fewer and farther between in OU because, like you said, they need to be very tailored in other niches as well in order to make OU. I have a feeling, however, that RU this gen is going to be massively populated with bulky waters, as I don't see Mega Blastoise, Empoleon, Jellicent, Slowbro/king, Milotic, Vaporeon, and Suicune all hanging out in the same tier, (though to be fair, a lot of those actually did populate UU last gen.)

I think what I was shooting for and maybe didn't really state is that the Water types that have stuck around are so diverse at this point that they hardly qualify as one unified "bulky Waters" group any more than any other type. Looking back to DPP, Vaporeon, Suicune, Milotic and Swampert all served more or less similar positions on your team. Nowadays you could easily run Azumarill, Rotom-W and Tentacruel on the same team and they'd have nothing in common in terms of how they function.

There are certain Water types with bulk still floating around, but their viability is independent of the old "bulky Water" genre, which I argue does not exist anymore as a more defined role like a revenge killer, cleric, etc.

Since Gen 4 Pokemon has become less about general bulkiness and more about resistances. I don't care how high your defense is, don't even think about switching into a Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat or Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor unless you resist it (the latter has a few exceptions now I admit).

Bulky Waters felt this shift a lot...Water is an okay typing but by itself it only resists Water, Fire, Ice and Steel so people tend to opt for more dual-type Waters and their additional resistances, even though they're often statistically frailer. The result is less Suicune, Swampert and Vaporeon and more Rotom-W, Storm Drain Gastrodon, Jellicent and Azumarill.

This is another really good point - Water pairs well with other things as a defensive type but it doesn't do much on its own anymore. Azumarill's typing is crazy good, allowing it to take a lot of hits its stats shouldn't allow. Water, Fire, Ice, Bug, Fighting, Dragon and Dark resistance? That's pretty much every common attacking type except Ground and Electric.

 

[Clair]

Chou's post covers basically everything relevant. It's worth noting that traditionally, one major niche of the bulky Water was to handle mixed attackers (think Infernape or Salamence). The popular bulky waters of 4th gen had just enough mixed defensive capability to handle these threats, and no exploitable weaknesses. However, the two intervening generations have seen the near-extinction of mixed attackers, in favour of insanely powerful physical or special threats; power on one side of the spectrum is usually enough to break defensive teams. This is basically just another reason for the decline in bulky waters.

Agreeing btw that Rotom-W basically fills the bulky Water niche, but in comparison to 4th gen Waters it relies much more on its useful resistances / immunity than pure bulk. Gyarados is the other notable defensive Water, using Intimidate and it's nice typing to handle most physical and mixed threats.

 

[Terminate421]

Since Gen 4 Pokemon has become less about general bulkiness and more about resistances. I don't care how high your defense is, don't even think about switching into a Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat or Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor unless you resist it (the latter has a few exceptions now I admit).

Bulky Waters felt this shift a lot...Water is an okay typing but by itself it only resists Water, Fire, Ice and Steel so people tend to opt for more dual-type Waters and their additional resistances, even though they're often statistically frailer. The result is less Suicune, Swampert and Vaporeon and more Rotom-W, Storm Drain Gastrodon, Jellicent and Azumarill.

Been seeing more Empoleon in OU. (Mainly due to Defog) But when given the right shit he can wall like a pro.

But this is my personal experience. The only thing I still don't like is having to watch for them Earthquakes.

 

[SkiGloves]

My fellow students and I have joke running around about Ferrothorn. That being Ferrothorn haunts water types to no end. I was under the impression it single handedly booted Suicune out of OU as Suicune's niché of setting up as the last pokémon on a team against stall teams was dead.

Still, those water types in OU have reason to be notable. Azumarill and Gyarados got blatant new toys this gen and are effectively new pokémon. Rotom-wash is a reliable counter to Talonflame that can function in practically every team due its only weakness being a fairly unused attacking type and three mons that don't want to switch in on it (Gyarados vs volt switch, Excadrill vs hydropump and Haxorus vs Will-o-wisp). Starmie is still the fastest spinner in the game and can kill most spinblockers. Tentacruel? I'd say it brings us back to Ferrothorn, FerroCruel is not about to die any time soon.

 

[Debury]

Past experience has shown that vapoureon can still be a total dick to take down with super effective moves with the right EVs invested.

With it being specially defensively set, it can take electric attacks pretty well as most of the used electric attacks off the top of my head are special anyway. Reliable recovery and the ability to burn with STAB scald lets vaporeon phase a few of its threats out of the match.

 

[Jojobobo]

Quagsire's still good occasionally, as long as you know what hits he can take and what he can't. Maybe he's just slight not good enough for OU anymore though, with all the crazy megas running around.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Lee's absolutely right-- These days unless you're Mega/AV Careful Tyranitar taking Special attacks, you probably have no business taking on the metagame's most powerful attacks unless you resist them. However, in DPP/ADV, bulky Waters had what it took to take multiple attacks even without Resistances, and "neutral typing" + natural bulk was a lot more important than having resistances. Now Defensive Pokemon have to be built to take on much more specific threats. Rotom-W is still the most generalist defensive Water-type in the meta, but even it would probably not be very good if not for Electric + Water giving it just the right set of resistances to handle specific major threats.

It fills the meta's need for bulky water types almost by itself, but it can't check anywhere near the same % of the meta that say, DPP Vaporeon could.

 

[FurryFurret]

Tentacruel has been doing an amazing job for me. Resists the new fairy type, bug, fighting, steel, poison, fire, ice, and water. It feels like a steel type without the steel typing lol.

 

[Tacoshack55]

Tentacruel has been doing an amazing job for me. Resists the new fairy type, bug, fighting, steel, poison, fire, ice, and water. It feels like a steel type without the steel typing lol.

What kind of set do you run?

 

[neooo]

CTRL + F'd Haze and found zero results.

Tentacruel isn't just a spinner.

 

[DaiGuren]

What if we look at bulky waters not as a one-stop answer to sponge all threats, but as what their intended use is supposed to be? Would anything change?

As far as theorymoning goes, Suicine imo is a very underrated threat as its CroCune set(as a late game sweeper) is much more potent that it was last gen. As long as it doesn't come on something that can 2hko it(which are not a lot if unboosted), Suicune can wreck havoc. I mean, Suicune wins one-on-one against MSaur(unless its packing roar).

 

[blizzarddd]

What if we look at bulky waters not as a one-stop answer to sponge all threats, but as what their intended use is supposed to be? Would anything change?

As far as theorymoning goes, Suicine imo is a very underrated threat as its CroCune set(as a late game sweeper) is much more potent that it was last gen. As long as it doesn't come on something that can 2hko it(which are not a lot if unboosted), Suicune can wreck havoc. I mean, Suicune wins one-on-one against MSaur(unless its packing roar).

with leech seed i don't think a spD mVenu is going anywhere any time soon against suicune. it may win 1v1, but it is gonna take 90902490 turns

 

[Hrothgar]

While I agree that most of what we consider bulky waters have been knocked down a few pegs, Vaporeon is still just as good as ever IMO. Those massive wishes are still just clutch after clutch.

That being said, Vappy and tenta are the only water types that can challenge rotom-w for a slot (I'm not even close to sold on azumarill).

 

[Colonel M]

Water-types with a mixture in their typing will always be the more superior of the bulky Water-types. It's a shame and, at the same time, a good thing that they're becoming more of a dying breed. Water-types are still solid this generation, but shadow from the previous generations. Though I disagree slightly with the introduction of Ferrothorn dooming bulky Water-types - Scald scares Ferrothorn most of the time and bulky Water-types were extremely dominant in BW2 - Tentacruel, Politoed, Vaporeon, Gastrodon, Jellicent, and many others.

 

[dragonizzlenite]

I've gotten really tired of using Rotom-W, because it is almost like the perfect Pokemon and works on just about every team. It is ON just about every team. In a search for a cure, I've found that the old CM Resttalk Suicune performs admirably in gen 6. You lose out on Volt Switch, but having Calm Mind and Scald is so much more effective at what a Bulky Waters does best.