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Data State of the Game - 07/10/2011 (Huge Stat Announcement)

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Deck Knight, Jul 10, 2011.

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  1. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Joined:
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    New Standing Committee Members have been sworn in, the following is the current listing of the ASB Policy Committee:

    Committee Members:
    Seven Deadly Sins
    DarkSlay
    Kaxtar
    Flora
    iiMKUltra
    deadfox081
    Objection
    TravelLog
    Rediamond
    IceBug
    Gerard

    Notifications:
    Nature and Hidden Power Change (open)


    1. Allowance of one free Nature change to account for the drastically different mechanics of Speed Natures. A Hidden Power Change will also be allowed on the basis several moves with Accuracy issues are fixed, and HP was used to cover those types.
    Attack List Updates (open)


    2. The Attack List now has Priority for each Attack as well as how they interact in multiple Pokemon battle formats. If you have any questions about how Dig, Fly, etc. work then the answers are in there. Targeting for attacks in Multi-Battles has also been added. A Command List has also been added.
    Profile Formatting Notification (open)


    3. All Players are to implement Active Slots in their profiles, as well as update their information to Ranks and STABs, as those have all changed.

    Here is the Active Slots formatting:

    Active Slots:
    <Battle Slot 1 Link>
    <Battle Slot 2 Link>
    <Battle Slot 3 Link>
    <Tournament Link> (If the user is in a tournament )
    <RP Link (Pokemon RPing)> (If the user is in an RP)
    <Additional RP Links (with Pokemon RPing)>
    <Gym Link> (If the user is in a Gym match [Mechanics TBD later])


    Implementations:
    Reduction of global effects (open)


    Weather and other global effects (Rooms, Gravity, etc.) are reduced from 5 rounds to 4 rounds.
    Torment and Substitute Changes (open)


    Changes to Torment and Substitute:

    Torment: The Pokemon imbues itself with dark energy and torments the foe, preventing the opponent from using using the same attack twice in a row or from using any moves used in the previous round for six (6) actions.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 10 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Dark | Priority: 0

    Substitute: The Pokemon siphons 15, 20, or 25 HP of its life force and creates a Substitute. The Substitute can absorb damage and status attacks for the user. When Substitute is constructed, status effects and secondary effects cannot be inflicted. Taunt and Torment ignore this, however.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 12 (15 HP), 18 (20 HP), 24 (25 HP)| Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0
    Codifying Effect Priority (open)


    Effects can be tricky to ref depending on when they happen in a round. Here is a listing of priority on effects and the dropping of various counters.

    Beginning of action: Confusion Stage, Speed Tie Flip (if moves are similar speed/complexity. Otherwise simpler moves like Water Gun beat more complicated moves like Surf)

    Beginning of action effects occur before the Pokemon begins that action.

    During action: Bide Activation, Bide Release, Confusion Activation, Confusion Damage, Flinch Activation (except Sky Attack), Paralysis Activation, Sleep Stage, Taunt Activation, Disable Activation, Encore Activation, Magnet Rise Activation, Reflect Activation, Light Screen Activation, Safeguard Activation, Telekinesis Activation.

    During action effects occur as that action is being used. If a Pokemon is faster, they will be able to activate effects like flinch or benefit from defensive actions.

    After action: Poison, Toxic, Leech Seed, Burn, Weather Damage, Partial Trapping Move Damage, Bide Stage, Yawn Stage, Taunt Stage, Disable Stage, Encore Stage, Magnet Rise Stage, Reflect Stage, Light Screen Stage, Telekinesis Stage.

    After action effects occur after both Pokemon have completed their actions.

    Beginning of next action: Sky Attack Flinch

    Sky Attack is the only attack that calculates flinch on the opponent's next action.

    Beginning of round: Global effects used on the last action of the previous round.

    On the third action of a previous round, a global effect will not activate. Instead it is summoned at the beginning of the next round and has its duration for the full span of all rounds relevant rounds.

    End of round: Paralysis Stage, Stat Reset Check, Perish Song Stage, Safeguard Stage, Global Effect Stage.

    End of round effects are resets on paralysis, stats, and reduction in the round counters of global effects, Safeguard, and Perish Song.
    Minor Adjustment to +Spe Natures (open)


    +Speed Natures now have 5 as a minimum on the accuracy boost.
    Burn Mechanics Revisited (open)


    Burn no longer has degrees. It is now a straight -3 BAP reduction in physical attacks, with 2 HP damage at the end of each action.
    Changes to Levitate (open)


    Levitate has always been difficult to navigate because of the number of Pokemon demonstrated to fly/float. Levitate is now treated entirely differently, and has both an ability and a command associated with it. This information is in the Ability List and the Command List.

    Levitate:

    Type: Trait

    This Pokemon naturally floats above the earth when released or easily takes flight, evading Ground moves like Bulldoze, Dig, Earthquake, and Magnitude. Other Ground moves can still hit. Levitate Pokemon will retain the Levitate trait when they use Skill Swap on an enemy, and will steal the opponent's ability (the user can specify if they want a foe or ally to gain Levitate from a Skill Swap.) If a Pokemon with Levitate uses Role Play, they will copy the opponent's abilities and retain Levitate.

    Pokemon with this ability: Gastly, Haunter, Gengar, Koffing, Weezing, Misdreavus, Unown, Vibrava, Flygon, Lunatone, Solrock, Baltoy, Claydol, Duskull, Chimecho, Latias, Latios, Mismagius, Chingling, Bronzor, Bronzong, Carnivine, Rotom, Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf, Cresselia, Giratina (Origin Forme), Tynamo, Eelektrik, Eelektross, Cryogonal, Hydreigon, Rebble, Bolderdash, Stratagem, Nohface.

    Pokemon that have the Levitate Trait without the ability (based on anime precedent, advanced wings, etc.):

    Beedrill, Venomoth, Mew, Celebi, Dustox, Shedinja, Shuppet, Beldum, Jirachi, Deoxys, Victini, Accelgor.

    Levitate Command:

    Pokemon with access to the Levitate Command float or rest at an altitude too low to avoid Seismic Attacks. The seismic activity disrupts their field or concentration and they will be struck unless they use this Command or Magnet Rise. In contrast to Magnet Rise, Levitate Command only lasts for three (3) actions and has an energy cost of 5.

    Pokemon with the Levitate Command (Based on Anime precedent, basic wings, etc.):

    Magnemite, Magneton, Geodude, Staryu, Starmie, Dragonair, Mewtwo, Heracross, Forretress, Scizor, Nincada, Nosepass, Volbeat, Illumise, Banette, Dusclops, Glalie, Metang, Metagross, Magnezone, Froslass, Probopass, Dusknoir, Garchomp, Dialga, Palkia, Darkrai, Arceus, Cottonee, Yamask, Cofagrigus, Solosis, Duosion, Reuniclus, Vanillite, Vanillish, Vanilluxe, Excavalier, Frillish, Jellicent, Litwick, Lampent, Chandelure, Druddigon, Golett, Golurk, Klink, Klang, Klinklang, Larvesta, Volcarona, Reshiram, Zekrom, Genesect.
    Changes to Bide (open)


    Bide will receive a minor change and will now send back 1.75x the normal damage instead of 2x. The Energy Cost will remain the same. Additionally, Bide has been updated with more complete move data, and Yawn now activates after 2 actions, meaning if used on action 1 against Bide, the Pokemon will fall asleep before it can unleash Bide.

    Bide: The Pokemon braces for impact, quickly forming a white aura around itself. For the next two actions, the Pokemon will absorb any attacks against it, adding its suffering into the aura. On the third action, it will release the energy gathered from Bide, doing 1.75 times (1.75x) the damage received during its use. If Protected or Detected against, Bide will still have an energy cost based on the damage the attack would have done. Bide hits Ghost types as well as Pokemon during Bounce, Dig, Dive, Fly, and Shadow Force. If a Pokemon using Bide is put into Sleep status, Bide will dissipate.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 6 + (Calculated Damage to Opponent/2) | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 1 (all phases)
    Changing Speed Divisors (open)

    Changing Speed Divisors:

    Speed Nature Calculation: Accuracy increase = (Adjusted Base Speed^2)/Divisor

    Divisors:

    Fully Evolved: 870
    Second of Three: 580
    First of Two: 435
    First of Three: 290

    And the values from the calculation would follow normal rounding rules.

    This results in a buff to Spe natured Pokemon, especially first and middle evolutions. The cap will remain at 30, however now more FE Pokemon will actually reach it (currently only Ninjask and Deoxys-S do). These are the same Pokemon from the last thread with the updated formulas for examples:

    Dratini: (58 * 58)/290 = 11.6, which rounds up to 12. [Dragonair is 11, Dragonite is 10 Acc]

    Aron: (35 * 35)/290 = 4.22, which rounds to 4 (but it gets bumped to the minimum +5) [Lairon is 4 Acc and gets boosted to 5, Aggron is 4 Acc and gets boosted to 5.]

    Cranidos: (67 * 67)/435 = 10.32, which rounds down to 10. (Compare Rampardos which gets a 5 Accuracy boost)

    Ponyta: (104 * 104)/435 = 24.86, which rounds up to 25. (Compare Rapidash, which gets a 17 Accuracy boost)

    Onix: (81 * 81)/435 = 15.08, which rounds to 15 (Compare Steelix, which gets a laughable 2 Accuracy boost now boosted to 5)

    Scyther: (121 * 121)/435 = 33.65, which hits the cap of 30 (Compare Scizor, which is slower and only gets a 6 Accuracy boost)

    Charmeleon: (92 * 92)/580 = 14.59, which rounds up to 15 (Compare Charmander which gets a 19 Acc boost and Charizard, which also gets a 15 Accuracy boost)

    Magneton: (81 * 81)/580 = 11.32, which rounds to 11 (Compare Magnemite which gets an 9 Acc boost and Magnezone, which is slower and only gets a 5 Accuracy boost)

    Kadabra: (121 * 121)/580 = 25.24, which rounds to 25 (Compare Abra which gets 30 (Cap) Acc boost and Alakazam, which gets a 22 Accuracy boost)

    For Fully Evolved Pokemon, this change brings Electrode (140 Base) to +30 Acc, Accelgor breaks the cap, Base 80's get +10 Acc, Base 100's get +15, Base 115's get +20, and Base 130's get +26.

    Stat Boost Increase (open)


    Stat Boost Increase:

    Increasing Stat Boosts from +1.5 after W/R to +1.75 after W/R. This would change the energy costs of the stronger stat boosters (+3 Boosters, Belly Drum, Shell Smash, Quiver Dance) upward to account for the increased power.

    Provided below is the maximum value of this change compared to the current value:

    Table of damage increase values:

    Value: +1s, +2s, +3s, +4s, +5s, +6s
    1.50: 1.50, 3.00, 4.50, 6.00, 7.50, 9.00
    1.75: 1.75, 3.50, 5.25, 7.00, 8.75, 10.5

    The +6 Values are also the maximum impact (6 actions) of a +1 Boost.

    +2 Stage with maximum impact:

    (N = Null, B = Boosting turn)

    N + B + 3
    3 + 3 + 3
    1.5 + 1.5 + 1.5

    Total 16.5

    N + B + 3.5
    3.5 + 3.5 + 3.5
    1.75 + 1.75 + 1.75

    Total: 19.25



    Big Stat Announcement

    I have considered at great length the issue of the stat cutoff vote at the end of May. The Rank 4 Cutoff was defeated soundly at 4-7 and will not be reconsidered. However the Rank 5 Cutoff was passed by only one vote, and had the panel been different I suspect a different outcome would have arisen. I am thus using my bully pulpit as game designer to reverse the decision of the vote.

    I do put a lot of faith in the community to look over the issues and come to the best conclusion. However in such a close vote in a matter of game balance I may have been mistaken in placing my full faith it it. The inital ranks were based on a set of values for nuetralizing all Pokemon, but it is apparent that while stats are an important factor in determining usefulness of a given Pokemon, they are not the only factor. Successive changes have shifted the focus of good Pokemon to a much healthier balance between defensive, tanking Pokemon and speedy Pokemon who now enjoy higher accuracies on stronger attacks to compensate for their lower overall stats.

    As such I believe it is time to exercise my discretion and make the cutoff for Rank 5 120. All Pokemon with a value of 120 shall have their stats increased. This will have no effect on participants in the current tournament, however it will be important for future implementations.

    Here is the list of affected Pokemon and the relevant stat:

    HP: Arceus, Cresselia, Throh, Pyroak

    Atk: Hitmonlee, Granbull, Weavile, Donphan, Blaziken, Hariyama, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Staraptor, Luxray, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, Arceus, Druddigon, Reshiram, Genesect.

    Def: Weezing, Rhydon, Magcargo, Donphan, Dialga, Giratina, Cresselia, Arceus, Zekrom.

    SpA: Kadabra, Magneton, Togekiss, Giratina-O, Shaymin-Sky, Arceus, Zoroark, Zekrom, Genesect, Stratagem.

    SpD: Tentacruel, Mr. Mime, Mantyke, Claydol, Kecleon, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus, Reshiram.

    Since there is always complaints of Pokemon getting "trolled", I will list them now so that griping may commence. I have selected 120 because I believe it the final reasonable threshold for a Rank 5 Attack, and I have no issues with the subsequent scrunching of Rank 3 and Rank 4. Here are the Pokemon between 116 and 119 in HP/Atk/Def/SpA/SpD:

    HP: Musharna (116)

    Atk: Krookodile (117), Fraxure (117)

    Def: Shieldon (118), Hippowdon (118), Cyclohm (118), Bronzong (116)

    SpA: Yanmega (116)

    SpD: Bronzong (116), Ferrothorn (116)

    Stat Categories shall now be:

    Rank 1: 0-25
    Rank 2: 26-60
    Rank 3: 61-95
    Rank 4: 96-119
    Rank 5: 120-140
    Rank 6: 141-160
    Rank 7: 161-180
    Rank 8: 181-200
    Rank 9: 201+

    Consider this change effective immediately in all new battles.

    Now for the questions:

    1. Referee Tutoring Program:

    The Program has been in effect since the beginning of June. If you have been in the program as a tutor or an apprentice, please provide some feedback.

    2. Bide Revisited:

    It's only been about two weeks since the Bide change, but since it's the single most complained about move, how have the various changes to moves that now counter it as well as the reduction on damage sent back affected its use?

    3. Substitute Revisited:

    It may also be too soon for Sub, but how is the 3-tier usage affecting battles? SotG's tend to drag on, so I'm sure people will have more data on it.

    4. "Brokenmons":

    While I admit some Pokemon have better strategies than others, I do not believe any Pokemon is sufficiently broken in a way that differs from how it tends to operate in-game or in the anime. Gengar has the worst rap at the moment, though Cyclohm gets a fair amount of it. What specifically is the problem?

    5. Freeze and Sleep:

    There's been disputes about how Sleep and co. are supposed to work so I'm attempting to clarify it.

    As far as I'm aware ever since GSC if your Pokemon was asleep and its counter hit 0, it would wake up. This is why Spore Electrode was a running gag in RBY, because your Pokemon would never wake up if it was just put to sleep. The idea behind Sleep's 3 stages was that you'd have a 1/3rd chance for sleep to do nothing, a 1/3rd chance for sleep to lose your opponent 1 action, and a 1/3rd chance for sleep to lose your opponent 2 actions. Thus your sleep counter was supposed to go down each action before an attack (like Confusion) and if it hit 0 you would snap out of sleep (or confusion) and attack normally.

    Freeze is in a different boat in that it's never really been codified. There are a few potential ways out of this, first in codifying the status itself and what it should do and second making it possible to alter the Base Attack Power of a freezing Ice-type move to focus more on inflicting freeze instead of damaging, allowing freeze to bypas things like Shield Dust for a price.

    6. Codifying Combinations Further:

    Combinations have always been tricky because much of it is left up to the imagination. Combinations will still be allowed at ref discretion, however the efects of how they work together will be codified below.

    Priority of Move 1 vs. Priority of Move 2.


    Priority 0 + Priority 0: -2

    Priority 3 + Priority 2: 5 (ex. Fake Out + Feint)
    Priority 3 + Priority 1: 4 (ex. Fake Out + Bullet Punch)
    Priority 2 + Priority 2: 4 (ex. Extremespeed + Feint)
    Priority 2 + Priority 1: 3 (ex. Extremespeed + Aqua Jet)
    Priority 2 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Feint + Crunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 1: 2 (ex. Bullet Punch + Mach Punch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Bullet Punch + ThunderPunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority -3: -3 (ex. Mach Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -1: -3 (ex. Body Slam + Bounce [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -2: -4 (ex. Brave Bird + Fly [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -3: -5 (ex. ThunderPunch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -4: -6 (ex. Icicle Crash + Avalanche)
    Priority 0 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Metal Burst + Counter)
    Priority 0 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Iron Tail + Dragon Tail)
    Priority -1 + Priority 0: -3 (ex. Razor Wind [Hit] + Air Slash)
    Priority -1 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Vital Throw + Circle Throw)
    Priority -1 + Priority -2: -5 (ex. Skull Bash [Hit] + Dig [Hit]
    Priority -2 + Priority 0: -4 (ex. Dig [Hit] + Crunch)
    Priority -2 + Priority -1: -5 (ex. Fly [Hit] + Sky Attack [Hit])
    Priority -3 + Priority -3: -7 (ex. Focus Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority -4 + Priority -4: -7 (ex. Avalanche + Avalanche)
    Priority -5 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Mirror Coat + Mirror Coat)

    Other Priority Combination notes:

    Charge effects always occur during their normal priority, so Focus Punch will always charge before any other action, Sky Attack will still charge at +1, and Razor Wind and Skull Bash will still have their useful effects at +1 Priority.

    Evasive Actions are moved down by the same level of priority as a the Hit phase, so Dig + Crunch will have the Evasive action take place at -2 and the Hit take place at -4 (e.g. it can evade Focus Punch and priority combinations that hit -3 priority) Body Slam + Bounce will take evasive action on -2 priority and hit at -3, potentially allowing you to evade a normal Dig, Fly, or 0 + 0 Combination, or worst case scenario evading or damaging vs. a Focus Punch.

    So the general rule for most priority at 0 or below is it drops priority 2 levels. Priority above 1 tends to either maintain itself or drop by one stage, depending on the combination. Combinations of multiple low priority moves will drop to the lowest priority stage, -7.

    As long as we're on the subject of combinations:

    Combination Effects and Energy Cost:

    There are two kinds of combinations. A combination of the same attack, and a combination of different attacks. Combinations of the same attack have multiplicative effects, Combinations of different attacks have additive effects.

    Same Attack:
    Base Attack Power = BAP * 2.25
    Energy Cost = (EC + (EC+4))*2
    Effect Chance = Effect Chance * 2
    Stat Boosts/Drawbacks = Stat Boosts/Drawbacks * 2
    Return Damage = Return Damage^2
    Recoil = Recoil * 1.5
    Accuracy = (Accuracy^2) + Spe Modifier

    Different Attacks:
    Base Attack Power = BAP 1 + BAP 2
    Energy Cost = (EC 1 + EC 2) * 1.5
    Effect Chance = Effect Chance 1 + Effect Chance 2
    Stat Boosts/Drops = B/D 1 + B/D 2
    Return Damage - Return Damage 1 + Return Damage 2
    Recoil = Recoil 1 + Recoil 2 / # Recoil Moves
    Accuracy = ((Accuracy 1 + Accuracy 2) / 2) + Spe Modifier

    Combining Physical and Special attacks:

    Ever though Work Up and Growth were kind of useless? Well, the good news is that as difficult as it is to pull off, you can use both attack types at once in a combination. Here's how to calculate:

    Example: Brave Torterra Razor Leaf + Leaf Storm w/ +1 Atk/SpA, in a Double Battle against Starmie and Archeops.

    Move Data (open)
    Razor Leaf: The Pokemon fires a blast of razor-sharp leaves at its opponent. The extreme sharpness of the leaves make the attack more likely to result in a critical hit. This move targets up to three (3) adjacent opponents in a multi-battle.

    Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 4 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Leaf Storm: Several parts of the Pokemon's body start to glow as it charges up. The Pokemon then launches a huge cyclone of wind and razor-sharp leaves at the foe. The attack is so exhausting that it lowers the user's Special Attack stat by two (2) stages.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 9 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    First combine the Base Attack Power of the two attacks, then split it in half. One will calculate using Physical Attack and the other will calculate using Special Attack. Apply STAB before the split. 6 + 14 + 3 = 23, split in half is 11.5. The accuracy if the attack will be 92.5%. In a double battle, Razor Leaf hits all foes, and Leaf Storm lowers Special Attack two stages after use. The Energy cost is (4 + 9 - 1 = 12) * 1.5 = 18.

    Physical Calc:
    Starmie: (8.625 (11.5 *0.75) + 3 [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1.5 = 17.4375 + 1.75 = 19.1875
    Archeops: (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 3) [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1 = 11.625 + 1.75 = 13.375

    Special Calc:
    Starmie (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1.5 = 12.9375 + 1.75 = 14.6875
    Archeops (8.625 (11.5*0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1 = 8.625 + 1.75 = 10.375

    Total Damage: 34 Starmie, 24 Archeops, 18 Energy, -2 SpA.

    Combination Type (CT):

    Combination type can alter based on how attacks are used, though most are cut and dried. If wanted, I can try and come up with a list of combination properties. Combination attacks are usually the type of the move with the highest Base Attack Power in the combination.

    There are 6 Combination Types, in order of strength:

    Set: Typing is such a fixed part of this attack it will override all other types.
    Force: Typing defines the attack to such an extent it will override elements.
    Elemental: Typing defines the attack as imbued with an elemental property.
    Passive: Typing is part of the attack but is not definitive in its use.
    Deferring: This attack is easily redefined by the qualities of other attacks
    None: This attack summons other attacks and uses their properties, or otherwise cannot be combined.

    Set Examples: Fake Out, Feint, Earthquake, Surf

    Force Examples: Draco Meteor, Heat Wave, Reversal, Superpower

    Elemental Examples: Aqua Tail, Bullet Punch, Energy Ball, Earth Power, Flare Blitz, Flash Cannon, Ice Fang, ThunderPunch, Will-O-Wisp.

    Passive Examples: Crunch, Dragon Tail, Iron Tail, Focus Punch, Rock Slide.

    Deferring Examples: Dig, Dive, Flail

    Example Combinations:

    Lets give a few examples. For our first example, lets assume we have an Emboar using Flare Blitz + Superpower.

    Flare Blitz + Superpower:

    Move Data (open)
    Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: 10% | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Superpower: The Pokemon glows with strength before making a powerful strike. However, it exhausts the Pokemon, lowering its Attack and Defense by one (1) stage each.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    The attacks would combine to have 24 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy of both is 100. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Both Attacks have the same Base Attack Power, but because Superpower has Force, it overrides Flare Blitz's Elemental, making it a 24 BAP Fighting Attack. Emboar has STAB on Fighting, so the combined cost is (8 + 8 -1 [STAB] = 15) * 1.5 = 22.5 EC. The attack does 25% recoil damage and has a 10% burn chance. Lets roll it against something it hits for Super-effective damage, say an Aggron.

    Calc: (12 + 12 + 3 [STAB] - 2 [Star Difference] -1 [Sturdy] = 24) * 2.25(4x Weakness) = 54 Damage, 14 recoil, -1Atk/Def, 23 energy, Burn failed, Crit failed.

    Lets try a different combination. Jolly Gyarados using Aqua Tail + Iron Tail vs. Impish Bronzong with Reflect.

    Move Data (open)
    Aqua Tail: The Pokemon surrounds its tail with swirling energized water and smashes it into the opponent.

    Attack Power: 9 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Water | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Iron Tail: The Pokemon coats its tail in iron and sweeps it into the opponent. It can lower the opponent's defense by one (1) stage.

    Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 75% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: 30% | Typing: Steel | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    The attacks would combine to have 19 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy is 82.5, and Gyarados' +Speed boost is 10, so the total accuracy is 92.5. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Iron Tail has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Aqua Tail is Elemental, the attack is Water-typed and gets STAB. The Energy Cost is thus (7 + 7 - 1 = 13) * 1.5 = 19.5 EC. The attack has a 30% chance to drop the opponent's Defense by one stage.

    Calc: [9 + 10 + 3 (STAB) - 5 = 17] * 1 = 17 damage, 20 energy, Def lower fails, crit fails.

    One more, just to examine priority:

    Lucario with Extremespeed and Bullet Punch vs. Aerodactyl.

    Move Data (open)
    ExtremeSpeed: The Pokemon tackles the opponent with blinding speed. The attack is so blindingly fast it strikes even before other priority attacks. Only Fake Out can strike more quickly.

    Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 2 | CT: Passive

    Bullet Punch: The Pokemon energizes their fist with a steely glow then delivers a lightning-quick strike on the opponent, outpacing their attack.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Steel | Priority: 1 | CT: Elemental


    Because Bullet Punch is a priority attack, its Base Attack Power is halved, giving the combo a Base Attack Power of 10. The average accuracy of both attacks is 100. The total priority of the combination is +3. Extremespeed has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Bullet Punch is Elemental, the attack becomes Steel-type. The Energy Cost is (6 + 3 - 1 = 8) * 1.5 or 12 EC. Since Aerodactyl has Pressure, this is increased to 14.

    Calc: (8 + 2 + 3 (STAB) + 1.5 (Star Difference) = 14.5) * 1.5 = 21.75 (22) damage, 14 energy, crit fails.
  2. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,936
    Good to finally get this up. As for that stuff:

    Tutoring: No real opinion, aside from what I said then.

    Bide: Did not need to be nerfed. The energy cost was huge anyway, 2x did not seem to be too bad to me, unless someone was an idiot, and it still serves that purpose. Bring back 2x.

    Substitute: It's okay. I like the way it is, but I liked the way it was. In my experience, people tended to go for the max or min anyway.

    Brokenmons: Get over it. It is competitive, and if you think they're good, then get them yourself. I haven't yet seen something unbeatable.

    Freeze and Sleep: Sleep should be the way it is practiced: equal chances for being out of it 1, 2 or 3 actions. Now that each time it is put to sleep it is less effective, I don't have a problem with the new sleep. Freeze, however, needs to be codified. Fully frozen should just be then norm, I think, because it happens enough that it should be concrete.

    I'll edit in with anything else I think of.

    EDIT: Torment is the single most broken in ASB at the moment. It didn't need to be changed. Change it back.
  3. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    1. No idea.
    2. No idea. I haven't been in enough battles to really observe it.
    3. Meh. While I can't custom-tailor it so well anymore, it does what it's supposed to for fast mons. It still came in handy as a damage controlling move in my round two tourney match. My personal question, though: Why doesn't Encore affect Substitute anymore? (I admit Encore was an amazing counter to Substitute users.)
    4. Haven't used Gengar. Haven't seen enough Gengar to tell. As for Monohm...it's a beast from the womb, thanks to its amazing coverage. It's good-but again, I can't tell if it's broken yet.
    5. I think most refs simply ref it as "how many turns do you sleep."

    As for freeze, I believe I need to do a little more testing with Secret Power Dunsparce in Ice-themed arenas before I can form a valid opinion. I find that the added body part rolls can get annoying occasionally, although the increased control potential is nice for Dunsparce (assuming he can chicken-flappingly fly high enough to hit any part of the opponent with Secret Power.)

    (BTW, can we update Data Audit thread Burn to the current version? People might get confused.) Speaking of which...does anyone besides me wish to alter all degrees of burn back to affecting the entire body of the opponent? It seems a bit tedious and overly complex IMO.
  4. Gerard

    Gerard

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    In the Brokenmons topics, the fact is that Gengar cannot be countered by the normal means, you might say he has shitty defenses (and you would be right), but his movepool is just awesome (even more in ASB), he has effectively 4 defense thanks to WoW, one of the fastest (and more accurates at +Spd) sleeping moves, "inmunity" to status thanks to Sub and Magic coat, various ways to annoy your opponent (torment, disable, confuse ray, toxic, etc...), and even if you actually damage him he has bide and counter, worst of all, even if you put him on red he can explode or put you on a timer with Perish Song (and if he just defeated a pokemon then kill another one), and a nice recovery move in Pain Split, seriously there's nothing Gengar can't do, you hit him, he can return it, you don't he taunts, or just attacks, he is really powerful and very few things outspeed him

    Cy is another boat, in that he hits EVERYTHING really hard, first there are only 5 pokes that ressist Dragon/Electric (shedinja, steelix, exca, ferro, and magnezone) just there he has an advantage, then he has BoltBeam, not any boltbeam since really with Sheer Force he transforms Thunderbolt in Thunder, and Ice Beam in "Blizzard", and that's just without Flamethower that is escecialy Fire Blast, all completely accurate but without it's secondary effect (and really nobody cares about 10%), with Hydro Pump and Surf just for giggles he hits almost every type for SE damage, then he has only two weeknesses (since magnet rise makes most ground attacks as good as neutral attacks), and the pokemon that normaly have any of those attacks are either week to dragon or electric (dragon and water respectively) or just raped by one of it's coverage moves, and just like gengar he has bide to just kill anything that tries to damage him, oh and he is quite bulky with slack off, just if it wasn't hard enough to kill already

    Not saying they are incredibly broken, but they are at least really, really, really good


    PS: on freezing, it's haxy at best so i don't think is really a poblem, i would say ref disscretion, since at least when it happened to me i use stages: 1 stage, reduced motion; 2 stage, no motion and only able to use non contact moves; 3 stage, completely frozen, to get to stage three you need 1 in 1000 chances, and you shouldn't have gotten a really strong hit, do it like confusion if hit by a strong attack, obviously in something like dunsparce it's a lot more common, but the stage system works it's best there

    PSS: Isn't the new Torment a way better disable?
    .
  5. Flamestrike

    Flamestrike

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    I'd like to talk about moves being used evasively, more specifically Agility, Quick Attack, Extremespeed and Aqua Jet. We'll get to the priority moves in a bit, but first, Agility, which AFAIK right now is still allowed to be used evasively. This flat-out doesn't make sense. From the Data Audit Thread, this is Agility's description:

    The Pokemon focuses to increase its speed two (2) stages, enabling it to maneuver much more swiftly.

    It has nothing to do with moving quickly to increase speed; it just increases your speed so you can later move quickly. This means that an evasive Agility is really an Agility+Dodge combo move, except it has no recharge turn and doesn't suffer the increased energy cost. This makes no sense to me. Unless someone can come up with a really good explanation as to why evasive Agility should work without being a combo (the only way I could see it happening right now would be if there was anime precedent for Agility actually involving movement, in which case the DAT's description would be wrong) I feel like it shouldn't be allowed.

    As for the three priority moves I listed, currently they aren't allowed to be used evasively. While I understand the mechanical reasoning behind this (they're about as cheap as a Dodge command if not cheaper and guaranteed to work, etc), the simple fact of the matter is that there is no flavour reason that these moves shouldn't be allowed to be used evasively, and given all the creative moves we allow that are stretching the limit much more than this it seems odd that this isn't allowed. I mean, I'm sure Ash has ordered Pikachu to use evasive Quick Attacks plenty of times in the anime (I won't bother looking for concrete evidence unless someone absolutely demands it) and Extremespeed is basically Quick Attack on steroids. Aqua Jet is a bit more iffy (especially since IIRC in the anime Buizel uses it as a projectile attack) but the general consensus is that Aqua Jet is a quick dash propelled by water, which again sounds perfect for the purpose of evading attacks. If the energy cost is really that big a deal, couldn't we just say they have double the energy cost if being used evasively or some sort of increase? I dunno, it just seems weird that three moves that are perfect flavour-wise for evading attacks can't be used to do so.
  6. TEA_DEMON

    TEA_DEMON

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    i didn't see a problem with bide before, since it has a huge energy cost and in doubles etc you can't control who it hits anyway. substitute seems fine, although i never really saw a problem with it to begin with.

    i've been reffing sleep by counting down the actions at the end of an action (same with confusion), since i don't think sleep is strong enough to warrant being able to have a stupid no action sleep. freeze has really annoyed me since nothing about it is concrete so i have to bullshit my way through it 100%.
  7. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    My personal question with sleep is one of flavor-Why should a Dragonite that's asleep NOT wake up from an incredibly painful 10 base power Ice Beam but wake up to a barely-scratching 12 base power Power Whip? There's a flavor problem with using base power as a determining factor to wake up a mon rather than total damage.

    There's been minor discussion of it on IRC. One possibility is to simply use, say, 12 total damage as a criteria for an early wakeup call.
  8. C$FP

    C$FP

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    There are only two things I want to comment on.

    1. I think Bide should do *1.5. Counter and Mirror Coat do *1.5, why not Bide? And the only reason Bide is bad in-game is that odds are the user will be KOed before the release. That is not as likely here at all, that is why it is so good in ASB.

    2. I think the approving needs to be addressed in some form. Recently, several times, a couple of pages stack up unapproved. Then, it becomes difficult for the approvers to do their job. It is very true that when danman and Flamestrike became approvers, they approved CONSTANTLY, probably because they were AC hungry and it didn't seem so boring at first. At least, I think that is why some approvers never bother -- it can be boring and sometimes not worth it, especially it you already have umpteen UC. I think if we cycled the approvers (I forgot some approvers were even approvers, because they hadn't approved in a while) a bit, that could be beneficial. I know this isn't an official topic, so I may be heavily criticized by some, but consider my suggestion.
  9. Fire Blast

    Fire Blast

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    Tutoring: The tutor program has been going great so far. The only suggestion I would make, is making sure that the people battling know that there ref is a tutee. Sometimes, a tutor ref needs more time because they need to send it in and they spend more time on it because it is their first. The battlers should know that is coming, and either accept it or decline.

    Bide: Bide is fine right now for the most part. (More coming later)

    Substitute: Working great, no real complaints/problems.

    Brokenmons: What Gerard said, idk what to do about them though...

    Sleep: Sleep should be useful. Almost everything get's Protect/Taunt, which stops a lot of the reason to use Sleep. I would say 1/2 might be better.

    Freeze: Codify them more, especially a Thaw rate.

    @Flamestrike (Although this can apply to a lot of things): There is one main problem with Anime precedent. Bias. In the Anime, basically *everything* Ash does will go his way, unless he is facing a strong trainer that is supposed to win (In which case it will be bias towards him). Most of the time, if Ash tries a combo, or 'creative command,' it goes his way. However, in ASB, bhot trainers are at an equal level. One is not a protagonaist who can get away with crazy ;h like AIM FOR THE HORN. By creating a dodging move w/o a percentage chance, it is not really fair. It could be avoiding a game changing move, and spamming it could create problems. That is what dodge is there for.

    Btw, I want to suggest something that has been irking me for a while. More Substitutions

    Right now, each round, you get one substitution based on what the other person will do. However, one substitution is often not enough, and adding more will allow there to be less of an advantage gap between moving first and second. Additionally, there are many moves in ASB, that would simply rip apart everything, if there weren't Substitutions. Examples are Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, Encore, Disable, and Magic Coat. If a pokemon has some of there moves (Gengar), the pokemon moving second needs to prepare for many of those moves. It is impossible to do so, and often these moves are so powerful that they can change the game significantly. A pokemon that attacks will eat Bide, status means a Magic Coat, non-attacking moves could take an encore, and being too careful could simply mean taking a ton of damage while you try to stop of all of these moves.
  10. Flamestrike

    Flamestrike

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    That's fair enough, though it doesn't necessarily need to be a guaranteed success. It could be +2 evasion for the action, or something similar. TBH the main thing I'm worried about is the Agility; it simply does not make sense to allow evasive Agility in a non-combo form. I'd like to see evasive priority moves because it makes sense flavour-wise (I'm sure characters other than Ash have used it, and come on, an attack that involves moving at lightning-fast speed *should* be able to be used to get away from/avoid an attack rather than attacking directly), but if it's simply not worth it due to mechanics and etc then that's fine.
  11. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Some moves suck and never get used. As usual, I'm here to change that:
    My proposal:
    My proposal:
    Reasoning:

    One layer of Spikes should do the same damage as a neutral hit of Stealth Rock. Furthermore, Rapid Spin shouldn't be such a 'get-out-of-jail-free-card' for hazards in ASB, since it's not like you can force a switch and set them up on the switch. It's much more costly and dangerous in ASB than in-game to set up hazards, and so they shouldn't be so easy to remove. Rapid Spin should physically make contact with the Spikes and Toxic Spikes, thus inflicting them with the effects before removing them. This will at the very worst make Spikes and Toxic Spikes have its affect against the spinner and thus not be completely useless. The worst case is that you set up Spikes/TSpikes against a spinner and they Rapid Spin it away; the move shouldn't be useless in that case.

    More moves:
    My proposal:
    My proposal:
    Reasoning:

    These moves have no value in singles battles, and I think they should have some utility there and some more utility in general. Since both Rage Powder and Follow Me work by distractions, I feel like if you're not attacking on the action that they are used, you would be distracted away from your intended action and fail it. This equates to a one-action-only +3 priority Taunt, pretty much, for 4 less energy. This is very balanced, considering that Taunt lasts for 6 actions and this only works on the action it is used and only moves used after it, meaning this doesn't block things like Protect or Endure.

    More:
    My proposal:
    Reasoning:

    Helping Hand is always worse than just attacking. Let's say you're using Helping Hand on a Pokemon that is using a 4x super effective 8 BAP STAB move against an opponent with no stat difference.

    Normal Damage:
    (8+3) x 2.25 = 24.75 ~ 25 damage
    Helping Hand-boosted Damage
    (8+3+6) x 2.25 = 38.25 ~ 38 damage

    The difference here is 13 damage. Pretty much every Pokemon with Helping Hand is capable of doing more than 13 damage with an attack, making Helping Hand always the inferior option to outright attacking, even in the best case scenario. For this reason, I want to see Helping Hand straight multiply the BAP of the attack with a minimum to guarantee it's effective. Now let's try the math:

    Normal Damage:
    (8+3) x 2.25 = 24.75 ~ 25 damage
    Helping Hand-boosted Damage
    (16+3) x 2.25 = 42.75 ~ 43 damage

    Keep in mind that this is the best case, and here, we see a boost of 18 damage, which is enough damage that it'd be worth using. Note that this isn't enough damage to make Helping Hand always the best choice, but only in certain scenarios, as it should be. Consider a less amazing case with my suggestion.

    Normal Damage:
    (6+3) x 1.5 = 13.5 ~ 14 damage
    Helping Hand-boosted Damage
    (12+3) x 1.5 = 22.5 ~ 23 damage

    Only a net boost of 9 damage makes this less beneficial than just attacking outright. To reiterate, this means that you'd only use Helping Hand in certain scenarios, but it would be a move with actual and legitimate niche value, unlike what it is now.

    I will likely have more suggestions later because I might be the only human being who uses some of these moves, but hey, we'll cross that bridge when we get there. Now onto the questions I have a say in:
    The Bide nerf was 'enough' for the moment, I think. The change to Yawn really bothers me because now Yawn is absurdly powerful as a general move. I'll touch on this more later during my discussion on sleep, but suffice to say that I think Bide is cool.
    I like it. Substitute was too versatile before, and now you can't cheese it and make it survive with 1 HP. This is a good change and it should stay how the change was made.
    The problem is a combination of spectacular ASB movepools with great typing, great abilities, great coverage, and all the stuff that makes some real Pokemon ridiculous in-game. Obviously no Pokemon is broken in a way that differs from how it tends to work in the anime, but that doesn't mean it's not broken because of how excellently it operates in its niche. Gengar, for instance, is so potent that it's outright ridiculous how it can take poor match-ups and just shit on its opponent with a combination of techniques like Counter, Bide, Disable, Pain Split, typing, great coverage, and other such trickery. Sure, makes sense for Gengar to be that way, but that doesn't make it okay for it to be so many leaps and bounds ahead of other Pokemon. The problem is a combination of things, and I doubt any one fix to a part will make it much better.
    I want to talk about sleep in particular. the change to Yawn made it ridiculous with how sleep actually works in-game, which is 1 guaranteed turn of sleep, with a 1/3 chance for 2 and a 1/3 chance for 3. Your interpretation of sleep changes a lot of things and makes it substantially less broken. Yawn is a —% accurate move with great distribution that now has only a 1 action delay, which doesn't give players a chance to use something like Roar or Bug Buzz (sonic attacks) to knock off the drowsiness. If we go with your interpretation of sleep, then this isn't too bad, but it's a serious problem right now with the in-game interpretation of sleep. Basically, right now Yawn guarantees 1 action of disabling, and can "completely freeze" a Pokemon for up to 3 actions. That's insane!

    I don't quite have a suggestion right now because I don't have a good solution yet, but I'll think more and see what some others have to say. Regardless, something here needs to change, because sleep and Yawn are completely ridiculous right now.
  12. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    I personally agree that some priority attacks should be allowed to be used to dodge at the cost of not dealing damage. I also personally think Flame Charge should be allowed as a dodge move in the same manner-you're moving quickly with an attack.

    Also, I'd like to recodify how priority attacks interact in combos. I dislike the idea that a Wild Charge+Aqua Jet combo would get 0 priority, and it also gives ExtremeSpeed an annoying niche in combo attacks.

    Responses to Dusk's inquiries:

    As for Follow Me/Rage Powder: So? Both moves were designed inherently with Doubles in mind, and they always have been. I see no real reason to alter this.

    Hazards Buff: My personal thoughts are that Spikes should work just as much as an RPing hazard as an entry hazard-you have to step on the spikes/toxic spikes if you want to move around ant hit your opponent. On the other hand, I agree a single layer should be 12.

    However, I dislike the idea of getting 24 free damage in against everything that switches in in a 6v6. Seriously, not cool.

    Why not simply have hazards deal more initial damage, but wear down over time, I.e. having levels of Spikes coverage? Obviously some stones from Stealth Rock will get caught and deactivate, and some Spikes will get caught in the opponent's foot.

    To the next post: Yeah, I was also wondering if we could hard-codify how moves function if they exhaust the mon's energy in the process.
  13. Gerard

    Gerard

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    ^.^
    R_D, I love many of your sugestions, but i have a problem with Helping Hand, since I don't know if you considered the multi target moves, that's where helping hand is useful (and the reason it's used in double/triplets) to icrease the BP of already good moves like Rock Slide, Heat Wave or Surf, you know the moves that really do lots of damage to many targets, those moves have their power cut for a reason, they do lots of damage, one helping hand would increase those 9-18 damage and transform it in 27-54 damage, really insane for 7 energy, if they didn't increase the damage so much in those moves i would be totally on board of a boost on it (yeah Togetic!)

    PS: I agree in that "some" pryority attacks should be able to dodge an attack, in the same way Agility can serve to dodge in exchange of not doing anything else, or you could do the dodge command suck less so people would actually use it

    PSS: I also think we should talk about energy exhaustion, riht now, I can use a pryority combo when i'm at 3 energy, or use perish song at 2hp and 1 energy, falling, but taking a big chunck of my opponent with me, can we codify attack in a way that if the pokemon doesn't have enough energy the attack fails and the pokemon faints instead of the other way around (the pokemon attacks and AFTER that faints)
  14. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I considered that, but let's look at some numbers. Remember that spread attacks have their BAP reduced by 25% where they would hit multiple targets.

    Earthquake:
    Normally in a Multi-Battle:
    (7.5+3) x 1.0 = 10.5 ~ 11 damage x 2 targets = 22 net damage
    Helping Hand-Boosted:
    (15+3) x 1.0 = 18 damage x 2 targets = 36 net damage

    That's a gain of 14 net damage (assuming you can dodge your ally's EQ with Levitate/Flying-type, that is) on a fairly average STAB neutral hit. That's not too much. Granted, this gets exciting if the opponents are weak to EQ:

    Super Effective Earthquake:
    Normally in a Multi-Battle:
    (7.5+3) x 1.5 = 15.75 ~ 16 damage x 2 targets = 32 net damage
    Helping Hand-Boosted:
    (15+3) x 1.5 = 27 damage x 2 targets = 54 net damage

    This is a pretty exceptional case, since it requires both opponents be weak to Earthquake, and it requires that your ally using Helping Hand is immune to Earthquake (Plausible). In this exceptional case, you gain a net of 22 damage, which is about as strong as if the Helping Hand user were to use a STAB super effective attack of its own against a single opponent with a fair stat advantage. (10+3+1.5) x 1.5 = 21.75 ~ 22 damage (Very plausible). That still isn't what I would consider ridiculous. Outside of Explosion and Selfdestruct and a few others like Eruption, which have obviously intense drawbacks or problems, the strongest spread attack has 12 BAP in ASB, which makes the above numbers reasonable.

    While I agree that the suggested Helping Hand would be strong, it'd be nice if it were actually strong as opposed to the meh that it is now. Although to be fair, it really doesn't change the super effective Earthquake example much at all.

    Super Effective Earthquake:
    Normally in a Multi-Battle:
    (7.5+3) x 1.5 = 15.75 ~ 16 damage x 2 targets = 32 net damage
    Helping Hand-Boosted:
    (13.5+3) x 1.5 = 24.75 ~ 25 damage x 2 targets = 50 net damage

    Only marginally worse, in reality. (+18 net damage, as opposed to +22 net damage)
  15. Temperantia

    Temperantia

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    Afaik Tort, Priority in combos still has +1. The damage output is calc'd differently to make up for it.


    Here's the post from the Data Audit:

    Show Hide
    Show Hide

    Priority and Combination Attacks:
    Combination Attacks distort priority beyond that of normal actions. A Combination Attack of two Priority: 0 moves will have a -2 priority on its Hit. A combination of a Priority: 1 or Priority: 2 move with a Priority: 0 move will add Priority: 1 to the attack, but will only increase Base Attack Power by half the Priority: 1 attack's amount (e.g. Mach Punch + Fire Punch will have 10 BAP, not 12.) The only other odd priority combination are attacks combined with negative priority moves. These will have the BP of the Priority: 1 or Priority: 0 Attack and reduce the priority of the entire attack combination to -7, lower than moves like Circle Throw and Dragon Tail. (ex. Icicle Crash + Avalanche will have 10.5 Base Attack Power, which will double to 21 if the user is hit. Mach Punch + Focus Punch can clear distances with a +1 priority on reaching proximity with the target, but will only have 17 Base Attack Power when it strikes)
  16. Leethoof

    Leethoof

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    In addition to R_D's suggestions on entry hazards, I propose that they have some sort of use in no-switch battles (3v3 Triples, 2v2 Doubles, etc). It will also increase its use in regular 3v3 Singles and whatnot as generally, there are only 2 switch-ins in a 3v3 Singles battle, making entry hazards kind of a waste when you could be killing the pokemon in front of you.

    Perhaps we could codify some sort of command like "put toxic spikes between you and your opponent" Then, the opponent will have to use ranged attacks or find a way around the spikes.
  17. deadfox081

    deadfox081

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    Tutor Program: Not something I've been a part of on either end, but it is something I fully encourage. Especially with the build up of un-reffed matches that seems to be occurring in the Battle Tower from time to time. I also don't think ref DQs should be so heavily enforced on tutees, but not that I have seen this happen.

    Bide: Bide was strong before, it is still strong now. I don't know that I would have gone so far as to say it was broken either way. It simply meant looking over an opponents movepool before issuing actions and planning for it should it be present.

    Subs: Like the change, being able to plan to reliably (outside crits) make an attack+1 HP sub was too good for its energy cost. I much prefer how it is now, 20 and especially 25 HP subs can easily take 2-3 attacks anyway. I also like their slightly increased energy cost from before.

    Brokemons: This is really a movepool issue, and it comes from CAPs and the stronger Gen 1 mons. Hence why Chlom and Gengar are good examples. They both are certainly tough to combat but I don't know if this shouldn't just be a reward for building a strong Poke and using it cleverly. Remember, both are 3 stage evolution lines and take a fair investment of MC to get the aforementioned movepools. Particularly in Gengar's case when a lot of them come from Past Gen.

    Freeze and Sleep: I have never seen Sleep stages lowered before the action, nor do I believe they should be reffed that way. Most sleep moved out there are of poor accuracy, and need some luck or a +Spe nature to come off. This coupled with the reduction in duration for future naps and the limit on 3 sleeps per battle in no way makes sleep a problem. Freeze on the other hand is a problem in terms of ambiguity that needs to be fixed. I am in favour of the current partial freeze system, but rarely does someone specify which body part their Ice Beam is aimed at. In the past I have used ref discretion to decide what gets frozen and have also seen others randomize it. Both of these I feel are useable suggestions, but some sort of hard-coding of how freeze works could also be very useful.

    Dusks move changes: I don't have a particular aversion to any of these, but most are niche moves that will not largely effect ASB as a whole. I do think that something being done to make entry hazards more useable is a good thing though. It takes a concerted effort to get 3 layers of spikes up so having these do more damage is a good thing. I could also be for the hazards not necessarily needing a switch to do damage (ie moved like Whilwind, Circle Throw, Dragon Tail, etc could throw the opponent into the hazards in Switch=KO)

    Priority dodging: I have always thought that it made intuitive sense for priority to be able to be used in a dodging capacity, particularly with something like Extremespeed. I can see how this can be construed as a little bit broken though so any implementation should be approached with caution. If I have ever reffed an attempt to dodge using Agility I have given it a 50% chance of working, and the use did not give the usual +2 speed increase. In this case the Agility is more of a one time boost of speed used to dodge a specific attack.
  18. Flamestrike

    Flamestrike

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    This is how I've done it in the past as well, but as I pointed out given Agility's current description that is technically a combo, as it combines the focusing of Agility to boost the dodging speed with the action of dodging itself. Therefore it should be subjected to the usual combo penalties, namely increased energy cost and a recharge action.
  19. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    RE: Combo Priority:

    The best thing I can come up with for shorthand is the following.

    Priority of Move 1 vs. Priority of Move 2.


    Priority 0 + Priority 0: -2

    Priority 3 + Priority 2: 5 (ex. Fake Out + Feint)
    Priority 3 + Priority 1: 4 (ex. Fake Out + Bullet Punch)
    Priority 2 + Priority 2: 4 (ex. Extremespeed + Feint)
    Priority 2 + Priority 1: 3 (ex. Extremespeed + Aqua Jet)
    Priority 2 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Feint + Crunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 1: 2 (ex. Bullet Punch + Mach Punch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Bullet Punch + ThunderPunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority -3: -3 (ex. Mach Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -1: -3 (ex. Body Slam + Bounce [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -2: -4 (ex. Brave Bird + Fly [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -3: -5 (ex. ThunderPunch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -4: -6 (ex. Icicle Crash + Avalanche)
    Priority 0 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Metal Burst + Counter)
    Priority 0 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Iron Tail + Dragon Tail)
    Priority -1 + Priority 0: -3 (ex. Razor Wind [Hit] + Air Slash)
    Priority -1 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Vital Throw + Circle Throw)
    Priority -1 + Priority -2: -5 (ex. Skull Bash [Hit] + Dig [Hit]
    Priority -2 + Priority 0: -4 (ex. Dig [Hit] + Crunch)
    Priority -2 + Priority -1: -5 (ex. Fly [Hit] + Sky Attack [Hit])
    Priority -3 + Priority -3: -7 (ex. Focus Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority -4 + Priority -4: -7 (ex. Avalanche + Avalanche)
    Priority -5 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Mirror Coat + Mirror Coat)

    Other Priority Combination notes:

    Charge effects always occur during their normal priority, so Focus Punch will always charge before any other action, Sky Attack will still charge at +1, and Razor Wind and Skull Bash will still have their useful effects at +1 Priority.

    Evasive Actions are moved down by the same level of priority as a the Hit phase, so Dig + Crunch will have the Evasive action take place at -2 and the Hit take place at -4 (e.g. it can evade Focus Punch and priority combinations that hit -3 priority) Body Slam + Bounce will take evasive action on -2 priority and hit at -3, potentially allowing you to evade a normal Dig, Fly, or 0 + 0 Combination, or worst case scenario evading or damaging vs. a Focus Punch.

    So the general rule for most priority at 0 or below is it drops priority 2 levels. Priority above 1 tends to either maintain itself or drop by one stage, depending on the combination. Combinations of multiple low priority moves will drop to the lowest priority stage, -7.

    As long as we're on the subject of combinations:

    Combination Energy Cost:

    Combination Energy costs are equal to the sum of both actions multiplied by 1.5. If an attack is combined with itself, the additional energy cost is added before the multiplier. In mathematical terms:

    Energy Cost (different moves) = (EC Move 1 + EC Move 2) * 1.5
    Energy Cost (same move) = ((EC Move * 2) + 4) * 1.5

    Combination Accuracy:

    Combination Accuracies are equal to the average accuracy between the two attacks, then the speed modifier from a +Spe nature is applied.


    Combining Physical and Special attacks:

    Ever though Work Up and Growth were kind of useless? Well, the good news is that as difficult as it is to pull off, you can use both attack types at once in a combination. Here's how to calculate:

    Example: Brave Torterra Razor Leaf + Leaf Storm w/ +1 Atk/SpA, in a Double Battle against Starmie and Archeops.

    Move Data (open)
    Razor Leaf: The Pokemon fires a blast of razor-sharp leaves at its opponent. The extreme sharpness of the leaves make the attack more likely to result in a critical hit. This move targets up to three (3) adjacent opponents in a multi-battle.

    Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 4 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Leaf Storm: Several parts of the Pokemon's body start to glow as it charges up. The Pokemon then launches a huge cyclone of wind and razor-sharp leaves at the foe. The attack is so exhausting that it lowers the user's Special Attack stat by two (2) stages.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 9 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    First combine the Base Attack Power of the two attacks, then split it in half. One will calculate using Physical Attack and the other will calculate using Special Attack. Apply STAB before the split. 6 + 14 + 3 = 23, split in half is 11.5. The accuracy if the attack will be 92.5%. In a double battle, Razor Leaf hits all foes, and Leaf Storm lowers Special Attack two stages after use. The Energy cost is (4 + 9 - 1 = 12) * 1.5 = 18.

    Physical Calc:
    Starmie: (8.625 (11.5 *0.75) + 3 [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1.5 = 17.4375 + 1.75 = 19.1875
    Archeops: (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 3) [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1 = 11.625 + 1.75 = 13.375

    Special Calc:
    Starmie (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1.5 = 12.9375 + 1.75 = 14.6875
    Archeops (8.625 (11.5*0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1 = 8.625 + 1.75 = 10.375

    Total Damage: 34 Starmie, 24 Archeops, 18 Energy, -2 SpA.

    Combination Type (CT):

    Combination type can alter based on how attacks are used, though most are cut and dried. If wanted, I can try and come up with a list of combination properties. Combination attacks are usually the type of the move with the highest Base Attack Power in the combination.

    Example Properties:

    Elemental: When combined, this moves Element takes precedence over the Base Attack Power of the combinants.

    Example Elementals: Aqua Tail, Bullet Punch, Energy Ball, Earth Power, Flare Blitz, Flash Cannon, Ice Fang, ThunderPunch, Will-O-Wisp.

    Force: When combined, this move's type takes preference when it is has equal or greater Base Attack Power (before STAB/Abilities etc.) than other moves in the attack, regardless of their combination properties.

    Force Examples: Draco Meteor, Hammer Arm, Meteor Mash, Outrage, Sky Attack, Superpower

    Passive: When combined, this move's type is passive and will be overridden by another move in the combination if applicable.

    Passive Examples: Crunch, Dragon Tail, Dig, Iron Tail, Focus Punch, Rock Slide, [Most Normal and Fighting attacks]

    Example Combinations:

    Lets give a few examples. For our first example, lets assume we have an Emboar using Flare Blitz + Superpower.

    Flare Blitz + Superpower:

    Move Data (open)
    Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: 10% | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Superpower: The Pokemon glows with strength before making a powerful strike. However, it exhausts the Pokemon, lowering its Attack and Defense by one (1) stage each.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    The attacks would combine to have 24 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy of both is 100. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Both Attacks have the same Base Attack Power, but because Superpower has Force, it overrides Flare Blitz's Elemental, making it a 24 BAP Fighting Attack. Emboar has STAB on Fighting, so the combined cost is (8 + 8 -1 [STAB] = 15) * 1.5 = 22.5 EC. The attack does 25% recoil damage and has a 10% burn chance. Lets roll it against something it hits for Super-effective damage, say an Aggron.

    Calc: (12 + 12 + 3 [STAB] - 2 [Star Difference] -1 [Sturdy] = 24) * 2.25(4x Weakness) = 54 Damage, 14 recoil, -1Atk/Def, 23 energy, Burn failed, Crit failed.

    Lets try a different combination. Jolly Gyarados using Aqua Tail + Iron Tail vs. Impish Bronzong with Reflect.

    Move Data (open)
    Aqua Tail: The Pokemon surrounds its tail with swirling energized water and smashes it into the opponent.

    Attack Power: 9 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Water | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Iron Tail: The Pokemon coats its tail in iron and sweeps it into the opponent. It can lower the opponent's defense by one (1) stage.

    Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 75% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: 30% | Typing: Steel | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    The attacks would combine to have 19 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy is 82.5, and Gyarados' +Speed boost is 10, so the total accuracy is 92.5. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Iron Tail has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Aqua Tail is Elemental, the attack is Water-typed and gets STAB. The Energy Cost is thus (7 + 7 - 1 = 13) * 1.5 = 19.5 EC. The attack has a 30% chance to drop the opponent's Defense by one stage.

    Calc: [9 + 10 + 3 (STAB) - 5 = 17] * 1 = 17 damage, 20 energy, Def lower fails, crit fails.

    One more, just to examine priority:

    Lucario with Extremespeed and Bullet Punch vs. Aerodactyl.

    Move Data (open)
    ExtremeSpeed: The Pokemon tackles the opponent with blinding speed. The attack is so blindingly fast it strikes even before other priority attacks. Only Fake Out can strike more quickly.

    Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 2 | CT: Passive

    Bullet Punch: The Pokemon energizes their fist with a steely glow then delivers a lightning-quick strike on the opponent, outpacing their attack.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Steel | Priority: 1 | CT: Elemental


    Because Bullet Punch is a priority attack, its Base Attack Power is halved, giving the combo a Base Attack Power of 10. The average accuracy of both attacks is 100. The total priority of the combination is +3. Extremespeed has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Bullet Punch is Elemental, the attack becomes Steel-type. The Energy Cost is (6 + 3 - 1 = 8) * 1.5 or 12 EC. Since Aerodactyl has Pressure, this is increased to 14.

    Calc: (8 + 2 + 3 (STAB) + 1.5 (Star Difference) = 14.5) * 1.5 = 21.75 (22) damage, 14 energy, crit fails.
  20. MK Ultra

    MK Ultra BOOGEYMAN
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    2,368
    1. N/A
    2. I haven't encountered Bide since the change, but I haven't heard any complaints from those who weren't prolific users of the move beforehand.
    3. See Bide.
    4. I also have never battled a Cyclohm nor a Gengar, so can't really comment.
    5. No-one ever reffed Sleep like that, in fact I don't see how you could possibly interpret 'Intense Sleep: Lasts for three (3) actions' as a sleep that lasts for two actions. I dislike the Yawn change and I think something needs to be done to make 'sleep resistance' more useful, as I have had mons near-permanently incapacitated by Sleep. Freeze definitely needs codification. I think partial freeze is a poor idea, and would go by a definition of 'the pokemon's muscles are frozen so it cannot move until it attempts to use an appropriate move' or something similar, with an appropriate move being anything Fire-typed, Ice Burn, or any move with enough movement involved to generate sufficient heat energy. This deliberately shies away from 'block of ice' as that makes no sense, firstly in how it would happen and secondly in how a pokemon survives encasement in ice.


    Well 1/5 ain't bad...
  21. Ragnarokalex

    Ragnarokalex

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,996
    well, think ive been here long enough that I should post SOME kind of opinion here:

    1. The Tutor system is, IMO, a great success, I learned a lot from my stint through it, both mechanically and flavorwise. My only thought for improvement is perhaps to try and find a way to speed up the process, because ive seen a lot of fights stall out waiting for a tutor to approve, but unfortunately i have no ideas to help with the matter :(

    2. I havent had a whole lot of trouble with bide in my past battles, in the few matches it was actually used against me, proper timing and substitutions rendered it mostly ineffective. While Bide is an annoying move its not a terribly devestating one with proper preperation.

    3. I actually haven't ran into the new substitute much since its implementation, I like the idea of it. Ill have to try and use it more to really get a feel for it.

    4. I havent actually battled against a Gengar or Cyclohm yet, but since I own both of them NFE. Cyclohm seems like it will be an incredibly effective spiker, but with a the proper status moves hes more than handible, he just calls for a roundabout approach. Gengar on the other hand DOES seem to have an answer to almost everything thrown at it. While I understand that his versatility is a bit extreme, I dont really see much in the way of fixing it.

    5. I think sleep should function exactly like it does in B/W, it lasts 2-5 actions, and whatever turn it wears off is the turn u start acting again, so if sleep only lasts 2 actions, the pokemon is out of commision for 1 action, then wakes up on the 2nd action and acts normally that action. Freeze i think shouldnt last quite as long but shouldnt really be subject to the timer being lowered for damaging attacks. I also think that freezing should just result in all the pokemons muscles freezing over making it unable to move, pretty much the same thing iiMK said above. But I think you should be able to target specific parts of a pokemons body to cause a smaller penalty, such as cant use punching moves if arms are frozen or lowering accuracy a bit if you target eyes or something, for an increased chance to freeze or longer duration maybe.
  22. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Messages:
    3,171
    I'd just like to comment on Gengar and Cyclohm. People who have seen him on IRC will already know my thoughts on the matter.

    Simply put, yes, they are strong. Very strong. But that doesn't necesarily require a "nerf". THey're a mix of components, and trying to nerf them in any way will just be half-assed(and also showing the finger to those people who bought them, js). THis is an issue which divides ASB almost equally, so simply put, if you think Cyclohm and Gengar are broken, feel free to ban them from any battle requests you put up in the Tower. You are allowed to do this, and if you have some "moral reasons" for not using them, either man up and prepare for them, or outright ban them from your battles. If you're willing to have Beginner Battles for people who want to train their NEs, then at the same time you should be willing to go for "No Cyclohm/Gengar battles" if you really don't want to battle them.

    I feel these Pokemon should be left alone, because nerfing them goes against everything that ASB has been doing so far. We opened up full movepools, and trying to lock off moves on specific mons or something similar is just silly. Just deal with them, or ban them from your matches. Simple solution, and both sides get what they want.
  23. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,005
    I'd just like to add that I agree with Flamestrike about Evasive Agility. I have, and will again, refused to let Agility succeed as an evasive maneouvre in battles I've reffed. Both the audit thread and in game descriptions basically describe meditating to enhance speed, and the Psychic typing I think also reflects this. Nowhere in any of description is it stated that using the attack involves rapid movement; rapid movement is the result.
    edit: oh yeah, I also agree with Destiny Warrior on "Brokenmons", if you dislike them either deal with it or don't play with/against them.
    And I'm not just saying this because I own a Gengar, though I will add that I haven't found my Gengar all that overwhelming.
  24. deadfox081

    deadfox081

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2011
    Messages:
    4,133
    I have a couple of little comments on combination moves.

    Firstly I don't and never have understood why combos need to attract a negative priority. When performing a combo you are already being saddled with a higher energy cost than using the moves separately, and being forced to take an action to recover. The addition of negative priority on this seems to handicap combos a little too much. The whole list Deck made for combining priority attacks seems very fair, but only because it largely ignores the negative priority for normal attacks.

    Secondly, while I don't think Decks idea of codifying the way different moves are to interact in combos is a particularly bad idea, I also don't think it is necessary. Combos are something I have always been happy to leave up to the referee's discretion. Sure they may not always go exactly as you intended, but with a little bit of flavour text in regards to what you intended when giving your actions they are largely likely to as planned. I have always been happy to see combos as one of the elements that make ASB more like roleplaying, where you can have a little fun rather than just applying moves as they act in game with a slightly different damage system.
  25. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,695
    Well, let's take a look shall we?

    Referee tutoring program: So far I have only tutored one person. I really need to do more tutoring before I can say for sure whether or not I think it's as effective as it could be.

    Bide: I have at least two mons with Bide and so far I haven't used it once. I just find that my mons have strong enough attacks that they don't need to rely on Bide.

    Substitute: Well at least it's virtually impossible to tailor a substitute to be just the right size. I'm still not entirely sure if the freedom to choose how much HP (even from only a few choices) is a good thing. I might do a test battle with a rule that all substitutes have to be a certain amount of HP and see how that goes.

    Brokenmons: I don't use them, I've not yet faced them (though I faced a Gastly once, it was later revealed that the Gastly had an illegal moveset), so I can't really comment much.

    Freeze: I'm glad that it's been somewhat codified now, but I think it is becoming complicated much like the degrees of burn were. The problem with anything affecting specific body parts is that, 99.99% of the time, battlers never specify which body part they're aiming an attack at. Plus, even if the ref somehow works out which body part gets affected, how does he know which moves that affects? For example, can a mon use Fake Out if its arms are frozen? I guess what I'm saying is, do not make any ASB mechanics involve specific body parts AT ALL EVER, because it's too fucking complicated. Instead, go with something like what Gerard suggested, where stage 1 of freeze simply slows a mon down, stage 2 immobilises it a la Ingrain, and stage 3 is a total freeze.

    Sleep: I heard about this last night and my reaction was a great big WTF? As far as I know, if a sleep-inducing move is used on one turn in-game, that mon is guaranteed to be asleep the next time it tries to move. I don't understand why we deviate from this in ASB ... except sleep-inducing moves cost somewhere between 6 and 10 energy iirc, whereas Protect (the other way of guaranteeing avoiding damage for one action) usually costs considerably more. I heard one suggestion on irc that I liked: have sleep be 3/2/1 actions or possibly 2/1/1 actions (ie, 2/3 chance of 1-turn sleep, 1/3 chance of 2-turn sleep) instead of what is effectively 2/1/0 right now (why the fuck do we even have 0-turn anything?), but have the sleeping mon automatically wake up if it takes 12 or more damage (maybe lower this damage cap even further to 10 or 8). That's right, damage, not BAP. Why the fuck could a Dragonite sleep through an Ice Beam but not a Fire Blast? How does Aggron not wake up after Earth Power if a Stone Edge can wake it up? This way, although a pokemon can be temporarily incapacitated, the opponent is much more restricted in terms of what moves they can use.

    However, Yawn is now ridiculous. It was fine the way it was before.

    Moves being used evasively: I thought we ultimately agreed in a previous SotG that this was a flat out never, not in a million years, absolutely not, no way jose, no chance lance, nyet, negatory, mm-mm, nuh-uh, uh-uh, man falling off a cliff NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo ... so why is it an issue today? If people are trying to use moves evasively, make them pay the energy cost and make the move fail completely! If you want a guaranteed dodge, use Protect (which everything gets).

    However, this does bring up another issue: Protect outclasses Dodge command to the point where Dodge command is practically never a viable option. Now, I don't have a problem with Protect outclassing Dodge, since we're talking 5 energy against 7+ energy. However, I think the Dodge formula needs an adjustment. Currently it's (dodger's speed - attacker's speed)/5, how about making it /4 or /3 instead and put a cap of 50% so stuff like Ninjask and Electrode and Agility abusers can't get guaranteed dodges for 5 energy. I'll need to work out some numbers so I may withdraw this suggestion later.



    Combo moves: Right now, unless you're changing a not very effective move to a super effective move or going for a super powerful special effect, they suck suck suckity suck suck. 99% of the time, the two attacks separately do more damage than the one combo attack. Let's look at an example: Charizard's Fire Blast and Charizard's Flamethrower against a Cloyster (so that's rank 4 sp atk vs rank 2 sp def):
    • Fire Blast: (12+3+(4-2)*1.5)=18 damage
    • Flamethrower: (10+3+(4-2)*1.5)=16 damage
    • Combo: (10+12+3+(4-2)*1.5)=28 damage (6 less than using the two attacks separately)
    So, I'm using extra energy to do less damage than I would've done if I'd used the two attacks separately? Completely illogical! Therefore, I propose the following for calculating the damage of combos where the types of the moves are the same:
    • Calculate the damages of the two individual moves, add them together and multiply the result by between 1 and 1.25, depending on whether or not there were any secondary effects caused by the combo or any secondary effect chances were adjusted by the combo.
    For the Flamethrower + Fire Blast example, I don't know if a ref would give that combo an increased burn chance or not. If so, then a multiplier of 1.1 would be reasonable considering the combo isn't even 100% accurate ((18+16)*1.1=37.4 damage). If not, then 1.25 would be a fair multiplier ((18+16)*1.25=42.5 damage).

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