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Data State of the Game - 07/10/2011 (Huge Stat Announcement)

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Deck Knight, Jul 10, 2011.

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  1. Objection

    Objection

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    !support dogfish
  2. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Programmer Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    You're already allowed to remove your WLT from your profile. Hell, you're allowed to remove your entire battle list from your profile. It only exists as a trail of crumbs in cases where you're cheating or something, but in reality there's plenty of documentation across the forum to help in any suspected cheating scandals.

    Secondly, I think this is a ridiculous claim:
    The penalty has never been a loss on your record or something. The penalty is the time you spend battling in order to get the rewards. No matter what, the time is still there; you still spend the time to battle, and thus get the rewards. If you have a problem with people speed battling, that's a completely separate concern than training battles, which don't augment token gains at all. Brawls as they originally existed were retarded because they were a token farm. You'd pit 11 against 4 and crush them with spam spread attacks in one round, then earn all the counters for all of your Pokemon. That is not so with the idea of a training battle. Literally, the only thing the training battle does is says "Hey, WLT means jack shit and I think it should mean jack shit, so I refuse to adjust my WLT (which I've probably already deleted from my profile) in response to this battle. Otherwise, this battle is standard." There's nothing wrong with that no matter how you dress it up.
  3. Objection

    Objection

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    So, basically, the 'solution' to training battles is already in place.

    Thanks for the reminder RD.
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    Most of this will be in implementations. Consider this the move revamp SotG:

    Notifications:

    Stat System (open)

    1. Mons with 120 in a Base Stat are now Rank 5. No other stat related changes have been made.


    Sluggish Note (open)
    2. Sluggish is not negated by STAB.

    This will be edited in STAB descriptions.


    Combination System (open)

    3. The Combination System has been greatly enhanced and codified.


    Combination Priority (open)
    Combinations have always been tricky because much of it is left up to the imagination. Combinations will still be allowed at ref discretion, however the efects of how they work together will be codified below.

    Priority of Move 1 vs. Priority of Move 2.


    Priority 0 + Priority 0: -2

    Priority 3 + Priority 2: 5 (ex. Fake Out + Feint)
    Priority 3 + Priority 1: 4 (ex. Fake Out + Bullet Punch)
    Priority 2 + Priority 2: 4 (ex. Extremespeed + Feint)
    Priority 2 + Priority 1: 3 (ex. Extremespeed + Aqua Jet)
    Priority 2 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Feint + Crunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 1: 2 (ex. Bullet Punch + Mach Punch)
    Priority 1 + Priority 0: 1 (ex. Bullet Punch + ThunderPunch)
    Priority 1 + Priority -3: -3 (ex. Mach Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -1: -3 (ex. Body Slam + Bounce [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -2: -4 (ex. Brave Bird + Fly [Hit])
    Priority 0 + Priority -3: -5 (ex. ThunderPunch + Focus Punch)
    Priority 0 + Priority -4: -6 (ex. Icicle Crash + Avalanche)
    Priority 0 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Metal Burst + Counter)
    Priority 0 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Iron Tail + Dragon Tail)
    Priority -1 + Priority 0: -3 (ex. Razor Wind [Hit] + Air Slash)
    Priority -1 + Priority -6: -7 (ex. Vital Throw + Circle Throw)
    Priority -1 + Priority -2: -5 (ex. Skull Bash [Hit] + Dig [Hit]
    Priority -2 + Priority 0: -4 (ex. Dig [Hit] + Crunch)
    Priority -2 + Priority -1: -5 (ex. Fly [Hit] + Sky Attack [Hit])
    Priority -3 + Priority -3: -7 (ex. Focus Punch + Focus Punch)
    Priority -4 + Priority -4: -7 (ex. Avalanche + Avalanche)
    Priority -5 + Priority -5: -7 (ex. Mirror Coat + Mirror Coat)

    Other Priority Combination notes:

    Charge effects always occur during their normal priority, so Focus Punch will always charge before any other action, Sky Attack will still charge at +1, and Razor Wind and Skull Bash will still have their useful effects at +1 Priority.

    Evasive Actions are moved down by the same level of priority as a the Hit phase, so Dig + Crunch will have the Evasive action take place at -2 and the Hit take place at -4 (e.g. it can evade Focus Punch and priority combinations that hit -3 priority) Body Slam + Bounce will take evasive action on -2 priority and hit at -3, potentially allowing you to evade a normal Dig, Fly, or 0 + 0 Combination, or worst case scenario evading or damaging vs. a Focus Punch.

    So the general rule for most priority at 0 or below is it drops priority 2 levels. Priority above 1 tends to either maintain itself or drop by one stage, depending on the combination. Combinations of multiple low priority moves will drop to the lowest priority stage, -7.


    Combination Effects and Energy Cost (open)
    Combination Effects and Energy Cost:

    There are two kinds of combinations. A combination of the same attack, and a combination of different attacks. Combinations of the same attack have multiplicative effects, Combinations of different attacks have additive effects.

    Same Attack:
    Base Attack Power = BAP * 2.25
    Energy Cost = (EC + (EC+4))*2
    Effect Chance = Effect Chance * 2
    Stat Boosts/Drawbacks = Stat Boosts/Drawbacks * 2
    Return Damage = Return Damage^2
    Recoil = Recoil * 1.5
    Accuracy = (Accuracy^2) + Spe Modifier

    Different Attacks:
    Base Attack Power = BAP 1 + BAP 2
    Energy Cost = (EC 1 + EC 2) * 1.5
    Effect Chance = Effect Chance 1 + Effect Chance 2
    Stat Boosts/Drops = B/D 1 + B/D 2
    Return Damage - Return Damage 1 + Return Damage 2
    Recoil = Recoil 1 + Recoil 2 / # Recoil Moves
    Accuracy = ((Accuracy 1 + Accuracy 2) / 2) + Spe Modifier


    Combining Physical and Special Attacks (open)
    Combining Physical and Special attacks:

    Ever though Work Up and Growth were kind of useless? Well, the good news is that as difficult as it is to pull off, you can use both attack types at once in a combination. Here's how to calculate:

    Example: Brave Torterra Razor Leaf + Leaf Storm w/ +1 Atk/SpA, in a Double Battle against Starmie and Archeops.


    Move Data (open)
    Razor Leaf: The Pokemon fires a blast of razor-sharp leaves at its opponent. The extreme sharpness of the leaves make the attack more likely to result in a critical hit. This move targets up to three (3) adjacent opponents in a multi-battle.

    Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 4 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Leaf Storm: Several parts of the Pokemon's body start to glow as it charges up. The Pokemon then launches a huge cyclone of wind and razor-sharp leaves at the foe. The attack is so exhausting that it lowers the user's Special Attack stat by two (2) stages.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 9 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    Show Hide
    First combine the Base Attack Power of the two attacks, then split it in half. One will calculate using Physical Attack and the other will calculate using Special Attack. Apply STAB before the split. 6 + 14 + 3 = 23, split in half is 11.5. The accuracy if the attack will be 92.5%. In a double battle, Razor Leaf hits all foes, and Leaf Storm lowers Special Attack two stages after use. The Energy cost is (4 + 9 - 1 = 12) * 1.5 = 18.

    Physical Calc:
    Starmie: (8.625 (11.5 *0.75) + 3 [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1.5 = 17.4375 + 1.75 = 19.1875
    Archeops: (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 3) [Star Difference] = 11.625) * 1 = 11.625 + 1.75 = 13.375

    Special Calc:
    Starmie (8.625 (11.5 * 0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1.5 = 12.9375 + 1.75 = 14.6875
    Archeops (8.625 (11.5*0.75) + 0 [Star Difference] * 1 = 8.625 + 1.75 = 10.375

    Total Damage: 34 Starmie, 24 Archeops, 18 Energy, -2 SpA.


    Combination Type (open)
    Combination Type (CT):

    Combination type can alter based on how attacks are used, though most are cut and dried. If wanted, I can try and come up with a list of combination properties. Combination attacks are usually the type of the move with the highest Base Attack Power in the combination.

    There are 6 Combination Types, in order of strength:

    Set: Typing is such a fixed part of this attack it will override all other types.
    Force: Typing defines the attack to such an extent it will override elements.
    Elemental: Typing defines the attack as imbued with an elemental property.
    Passive: Typing is part of the attack but is not definitive in its use.
    Deferring: This attack is easily redefined by the qualities of other attacks
    None: This attack summons other attacks and uses their properties, or otherwise cannot be combined.

    Set Examples: Fake Out, Feint, Earthquake, Surf

    Force Examples: Draco Meteor, Heat Wave, Reversal, Superpower

    Elemental Examples: Aqua Tail, Bullet Punch, Energy Ball, Earth Power, Flare Blitz, Flash Cannon, Ice Fang, ThunderPunch, Will-O-Wisp.

    Passive Examples: Crunch, Dragon Tail, Iron Tail, Focus Punch, Rock Slide.

    Deferring Examples: Dig, Dive, Flail


    Example Combinations:

    Lets give a few examples. For our first example, lets assume we have an Emboar using Flare Blitz + Superpower.

    Flare Blitz + Superpower:

    Move Data (open)
    Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: 10% | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Superpower: The Pokemon glows with strength before making a powerful strike. However, it exhausts the Pokemon, lowering its Attack and Defense by one (1) stage each.

    Attack Power: 12 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 8 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Force


    Show Hide
    The attacks would combine to have 24 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy of both is 100. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Both Attacks have the same Base Attack Power, but because Superpower has Force, it overrides Flare Blitz's Elemental, making it a 24 BAP Fighting Attack. Emboar has STAB on Fighting, so the combined cost is (8 + 8 -1 [STAB] = 15) * 1.5 = 22.5 EC. The attack does 25% recoil damage and has a 10% burn chance. Lets roll it against something it hits for Super-effective damage, say an Aggron.

    Calc: (12 + 12 + 3 [STAB] - 2 [Star Difference] -1 [Sturdy] = 24) * 2.25(4x Weakness) = 54 Damage, 14 recoil, -1Atk/Def, 23 energy, Burn failed, Crit failed.


    Lets try a different combination. Jolly Gyarados using Aqua Tail + Iron Tail vs. Impish Bronzong with Reflect.

    Move Data (open)
    Aqua Tail: The Pokemon surrounds its tail with swirling energized water and smashes it into the opponent.

    Attack Power: 9 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Water | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental

    Iron Tail: The Pokemon coats its tail in iron and sweeps it into the opponent. It can lower the opponent's defense by one (1) stage.

    Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 75% | Energy Cost: 7 | Effect Chance: 30% | Typing: Steel | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    Show Hide
    The attacks would combine to have 19 Base Attack Power. The average accuracy is 82.5, and Gyarados' +Speed boost is 10, so the total accuracy is 92.5. Since both moves are priority zero, the attack hits with -2 priority. Iron Tail has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Aqua Tail is Elemental, the attack is Water-typed and gets STAB. The Energy Cost is thus (7 + 7 - 1 = 13) * 1.5 = 19.5 EC. The attack has a 30% chance to drop the opponent's Defense by one stage.

    Calc: [9 + 10 + 3 (STAB) - 5 = 17] * 1 = 17 damage, 20 energy, Def lower fails, crit fails.


    One more, just to examine priority:

    Lucario with Extremespeed and Bullet Punch vs. Aerodactyl.

    Move Data (open)
    ExtremeSpeed: The Pokemon tackles the opponent with blinding speed. The attack is so blindingly fast it strikes even before other priority attacks. Only Fake Out can strike more quickly.

    Attack Power: 8 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 6 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 2 | CT: Passive

    Bullet Punch: The Pokemon energizes their fist with a steely glow then delivers a lightning-quick strike on the opponent, outpacing their attack.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Steel | Priority: 1 | CT: Elemental


    Show Hide
    Because Bullet Punch is a priority attack, its Base Attack Power is halved, giving the combo a Base Attack Power of 10. The average accuracy of both attacks is 100. The total priority of the combination is +3. Extremespeed has more Base Attack Power, but because it is Passive and Bullet Punch is Elemental, the attack becomes Steel-type. The Energy Cost is (6 + 3 - 1 = 8) * 1.5 or 12 EC. Since Aerodactyl has Pressure, this is increased to 14.

    Calc: (8 + 2 + 3 (STAB) + 1.5 (Star Difference) = 14.5) * 1.5 = 21.75 (22) damage, 14 energy, crit fails.


    Implementations:

    Changes to Rapid Spin and Hazards (open)

    Rapid Spin: The Pokemon spins extremely quickly in place, generating a pulse of air that frees the Pokemon from any grasp the opponent has on it and physically knocking away Leech Seed, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock that are on its side of the arena. If Rapid Spin removes a hazard from the field, the Rapid Spin user will suffer the damage/effects of the removed hazard.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Spikes: The Pokemon spreads spikes and barbs that absorb into the ground. Each time a new Pokemon is switched in, they receive damage from the Spikes. Up to 3 layers of Spikes may be placed on the field. Each additional layer adds to the damage dealt. Flying-type Pokemon and Pokemon with the Levitate trait dodge Spikes. Rapid Spin will remove all Spikes from the user's side of the field, but will cause the Pokemon using Rapid Spin to suffer the damage from Spikes.

    Attack Power: 12/18/24 | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Other| Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Ground | Priority: 0 | CT: Set

    Stealth Rock: The Pokemon thrusts rocks at the opponent that split apart and set themselves at the corners of the field. Each time a Pokemon switches in, the rocks will become active and smash the opponent from all sides before setting down in their corners again.. Multiple layers of Stealth Rock cannot be laid. Rapid Spin will remove Stealth Rock from the user's side of the field, but will cause the Pokemon using Rapid Spin to suffer the damage from Stealth Rock.

    Attack Power: 6-4x resists Rock | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 12 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Rock | Priority: 0 | CT: Set
    9-2x resists Rock
    12-neutral to Rock
    15-2x weak to Rock
    18-4x weak to Rock

    Toxic Spikes: The Pokemon lays down a layer of spikes that inflict varying degrees of Poison status. One (1) layer of Toxic Spikes inflicts Poison, and two (2) layers of Toxic Spikes inflict bad poison. Pokemon with the Levitate trait or those that are Flying-, Steel-, and Poison-type are immune to the effects of Toxic Spikes. Pokemon that would be affected by Toxic Spikes, but are Poison-type, absorb Toxic Spikes, removing them from their side of the arena. Rapid Spin will remove all Toxic Spikes from the user's side of the field, but will cause the Pokemon using Rapid Spin to suffer the effects of Toxic Spikes.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Poison | Priority: 0 | CT: Set


    Changes to Helping Hand (open)

    Helping Hand: The Pokemon releases a bolt of blue energy, doubling the Base Attack Power of another ally’s move in the same action. The minimum increase in Base Attack Power that can be offered by this move is six (6).

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + (Adjusted BAP of Ally's Move / 2) | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 5 | CT: Passive


    Changes to Last Resort (open)

    Last Resort: The Pokemon recalls all of the attacks or commands it has used, and unleashes a desperate attack at the opponent. The move fails if fewer than nine (9) unique actions or commands have been issued by this Pokemon in the battle. Last Resort doesn't count itself as a unique move the first time it is used by a Pokemon.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Set


    Changes to Chatter (open)
    Chatter: The Pokemon yells meaningless statements at the opponent loudly. The inanity of the speech always confuses the foe. This move can hit any single Pokemon on the field, regardless of position.

    Attack Power: 6 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 5 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: 100% | Typing: Flying | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    Changes to delayed reaction moves (Doom Desire (open)


    Doom Desire: The Pokemon calls down a rain of energy beams from the sky that fall after the first action of the next round. The attack uses any stat boosts/drops the Pokemon had at the time the move was initially called, as well as the Special Attack of the original user. The damage is considered residual, and will faint a Pokemon using Endure.

    Attack Power: 14 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 10 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Steel | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Future Sight: The Pokémon uses its mind to summon a delayed telekinetic attack that strikes at the end of the first action of the next round. The attack uses any stat boosts/drops the Pokemon had at the time the move was initially called, as well as the Special Attack of the original user. The damage is considered residual, and will faint a Pokemon using Endure.

    Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Special | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Yawn: The Pokemon yawns loudly, forcing the opponent to think of sleeping and making them drowsy. Once afflicted by Yawn, the target Pokemon will fall asleep at the end of the first action of the following round. Yawn is blocked if a Substitute is presently up, but will not be blocked by a Substitute used after it takes effect. This move will fail if the opponent cannot hear the user.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Wish: The Pokemon funnels its energy into a small white sphere that is released into the sky. At the end of the first action of the next round, a large, energized sphere plummets from the sky onto the Pokemon, restoring 20 HP. If the Pokemon is KOed or switched, its replacement receives the boon.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 17 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    Changes to Explosion and SelfDestruct (open)


    Explosion: The Pokemon mechanically, through the mixing of noxious gases, or simply by release of pent up pressure, creates a massive explosion, fainting itself and causing massive damage to the opponent. This attack hits all adjacent Pokemon. This attack causes the user to faint. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack.

    Attack Power: 25 (user faints) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 20 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force

    Selfdestruct: The Pokemon focuses all of its energy in its care and releases it all at once, creating a huge explosion. This attack causes the user to faint. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack. This attack hits all adjacent Pokemon.

    Attack Power: 20 (User faints) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 15 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Set


    Changes to Mountaineer (open)

    Mountaineer:

    Type: Innate

    This Pokemon is used to scaling and avoiding rocks. It can avoid damage from Stealth Rock when it switches in, and all Rock-type attacks the round it switches in. In subsequent rounds Mountaineer will not evade Rock-type attacks.

    Pokemon with this ability: Sylar, Syclant.


    Changes to Major Status (open)

    Status Implementations:

    Paralysis:

    Every time you are fully paralyzed, your paralysis level reduces by 5%.

    Sleep:

    Sleep will change so that it still has two intensities, but three actual stages.

    Sleep Stage 1: 1/3rd. If inflicted with Sleep Stage 1, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up immediately. All other Pokemon will be asleep for 1 action.
    Sleep Stage 2: 1/3rd. All Pokemon inflicted with Stage 2 Sleep will be asleep for 1 action.
    Sleep Stage 3: 1/3rd. If Inflicted with Sleep Stage 3, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up after 1 action. All other Pokemon will be asleep for 2 actions.

    Sleep will no longer be weakened after successive sleeps, and will not have a 3 sleep per Pokemon limit. The Sleep Counter will however go down whenever a Pokemon takes 16 or more damage from a single attack (not in a single action, so two attacks that deal 15 damage each in doubles will not reduce the sleep counter.)

    Freeze:

    Freeze will now cause the Pokemon to lose actions like Sleep, and will have two intensities.

    Freeze Stage 1: The Pokemon will be frozen for 1 action.
    Freeze Stage 2: The Pokemon will be frozen for 2 actions.

    The following attacks can be used while frozen and will remove the Freeze condition from the Pokemon (they will still have their accuracy check to determine if they hit the opponent):

    Blast Burn, Blue Flare, Eruption, Flame Charge, Flame Wheel, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, Inferno, Lava Plume, Magma Storm, Overheat, Sacred Fire, Scald, Searing Shot, and V-Create.

    If a Pokemon is hit by a Fire attack or Scald while frozen, it will remove the freeze condition.


    Votes:

    Changes to Follow Me/Rage Powder (open)

    Follow Me: The Pokémon creates a distraction, forcing all opponents to target the user with their attacks instead of their intended targets. If a contact attack is redirected towards this Pokemon from another target, it will have half its usual Base Attack Power.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 3 | CT: Passive

    Rage Powder: The Pokemon unleashes a noxious powder that enrages all opponents, taking over their senses and forcing them to target the user with their attacks instead of their intended targets. If a non-contact attack is redirected towards this Pokemon from another target, it will have half its usual Base Attack Power.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 9 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Bug | Priority: 3 | CT: Passive

    A YES vote would implement these changes to Follow Me and Rage Powder.

    A NO vote would keep their current effect of simply redirecting attacks.



    Changes to Sing/Grasswhistle (open)

    GrassWhistle: The Pokemon folds a leaf or large blade of grass and blows into it like a primitive flute. The soothing music puts the target Pokemon to sleep, and keeps it asleep for as long as the music is played. For each extra action the music is played, it costs three (3) extra energy times the number of extra actions of sleep. Even if the song does not put the target to sleep, the move will calm down a Pokemon that is using rage-based moves like Outrage, Thrash, or Uproar, stopping their onslaught and preventing the resulting confusion.

    This move fails or stops working if the target cannot be put to sleep by any means. Louder sound moves like Bug Buzz, Chatter, Hyper Voice, Metal Song, Perish Song, Relic Song, Roar, Screech, Sonicboom, Supersonic, Snore, and Uproar will disrupt Grasswhistle, however Grasswhistle will drown out Yawn. Grasswhistle ceases at the end of a round, and cannot be used the action after sleep ends. Grasswhistle can be combined with another Grass attack on the action it is used, and the song will remain in effect during the combination cool down.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 and (3 * Extra sleep actions) per action | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Grass | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    Sing: The Pokemon sings a calming lullaby to its opponent. The soothing song puts the target Pokemon to sleep, and keeps it asleep for as long as the song is sung. For each extra action the music is played, it costs three (3) extra energy times the number of extra actions of sleep. Even if the song does not put the target to sleep, the move will calm down a Pokemon that is using rage-based moves like Outrage, Thrash, or Uproar, stopping their onslaught and preventing the resulting confusion.

    This move fails or stops working if the target cannot be put to sleep by any means. Louder sound moves like Bug Buzz, Chatter, Hyper Voice, Metal Song, Perish Song, Relic Song, Roar, Screech, Sonicboom, Supersonic, Snore, and Uproar will disrupt Sing, however Sing will drown out Yawn. Sing ceases at the end of a round, and cannot be used the action after sleep ends. Sing can be combined with another sound move the action it is used, and the song will remain in effect during the combination cool down.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 and (3 * Extra sleep actions) per action | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    A YES Vote would change Grasswhistle and Sing as outlined above.

    A NO Vote would keep Grasswhistle and Sing as they are.



    Second Specific Substitution (open)


    Allow a second specific substitution for a player moving first to deal with very diverse opponents.

    A YES Vote would allow a player attacking first to make a second specific substitution in response to an opponent's actions. This substitution must apply the same kind of response as your first. (e.g. IF X uses Protect, use Y and push attacks back will be your first substitution. IF X uses Dig, use Z and push attacks back will be your second substitution. You cannot make your second substitution simply "IF X uses Dig, use Z then A" unless your first substitution is "IF X used Protect, use Y then B." In both cases you are changing the same number of your actions based on one of your opponents actions.

    A NO Vote would keep players acting first with one specific substitution.
  5. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,695
    If sleep stage is lowered by 1 whenever a mon takes 16 or more damage from one attack, is this applying to attract and confusion as well?

    EDIT: And Rediamond does bring up an important point. What are your views on the proposal for using moves when you don't have enough energy for them, since that argument took up nearly a whole page?
  6. Rediamond

    Rediamond

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    3,168
    Wait, hold on. Those three issues weren't even mentioned in the SotG? Where did you come up with the idea to test them? Beyon that, are we just going to ignore the negative energy debate on the last page? Seven users pushing for a notion has never been ignored. I see no reason why Rage Powder and Sing are being voted on, and not Sleep and Negative Energy, both of which had substantial debates that were not one sided. I barely even know much about the various sides in the issues that are being voted on.

    I thought implentations were for issued that were fairly small or had no opposition? If so, half of what's being voted on should just be implanted. That, and sleep isn't exactly "small" or "uncontroversial." That, and I never got why we had to change decay and lower sleep stages, without any testing of one change independently. And second, an entire page of the SotG was debate on the weakening of attacks and combos that go negative. Only one user actually supported we keep it as is, and thats enough reason to go without any sort of vote whatsoever?

    I feel as if this SotG vote is about move changes. But I feel as if the actual thread was about Sleep and Negative Energy. Why shouldn't the vote match the actually controversial issues?
  7. FlamingFighter

    FlamingFighter

    Joined:
    May 9, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    Damn. That was a long thread. People, please stop posting so much stuff for me to read; this thread has taken 2 hours out of my life that I'll never get back. To say the least, my eyes hurt.

    I really would like to see sleep mechanics made a 3/2/1 system with decay; if not, just a 2/2/1 with decay would probably suffice. As for negative energy, I agree with R_D on the matter; not only are last-ditch ending combos fun as hell to pull off successfully, it is important and gives a usable edge if you're low on HP; they may be destructive if the new Pokemon gets a solid combo hit, but that's partially why Protect, Dodging, and priority were created.

    As for Selfdestruct and Explosion, I know for a fact that they both had a caption saying that they couldn't be used without sufficient energy. I had the moves list bookmarked, and my bookmarks on my computer, for some strange reason, load a cached version of the webpage on the day I bookmarked it as opposed to the updates. Stupid old machine was actually useful for something for once. YAY!

    Actually, I think I have an idea to (sort of) end the Rank 4 and 5 cutoff debate. These debates only ask "will this Base stat be Rank 4 or Rank 5?" Well, Wynaut (it's a pun, laugh, dammit) make it Rank 4.5?

    The main reason we use integer ranks is because the original system used asterisks to measure the ranks. Personally, I liked that system better (personally, the new system I find not aesthetically appealing and rather generic and boring), but now, with us using plain, boring numbers, we can divide them in half. Possibly, we could apply this to any "bordering" base stat, like the Base 95's, Base 140's (I think that's the cutoff for Rank 6), and all the rest, creating a new system with decimal points. Of course, nature changes would still be a 1 rank difference, and Rank 1 will still be the lowest rank a Pokemon can have without nature changes. I doubt the damage formula would have to change much to accomodate this new system.

    As for HP, I propose making a new formula for total HP as totalHP=HPRank*10+70. Basically, Rank 1 Pokemon would have 80 HP, Rank 2 have 90, Rank 3 have 100, et cetera, up to Rank 9 with 160 HP to punch through. And yes, it would probably make Blissey OP. Deal with it. If you think soething threatens you, find a way to circumvent it. Same arguement I give for Gengar, Cyclohm, and any other OP 'mon there may be.

    So, any thoughts on my idea?

    EDIT: Objection, I know that; I said that it had it at some point in the past. I edited the part to prevent further confusion.

    Any comments on my idea?
  8. Objection

    Objection

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    Actually, Explosion no longer has that statement last time I checked (though Selfdestruct does). Besides, there's a difference between low on HP and low on energy. The former is just bad luck/matchup 90% of the time. The latter is pretty much entirely your fault all the time.
  9. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Well; in regards to your HP proposal... we already do that. That's exactly how HP is determined, except it increments small amounts at the very highest levels.
  10. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    That's not what I'd call a persuasive way to go about it
  11. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    The reason it goes to +5 at higher ranks is simple. Every other stat loses power after rank six. Therefore, HP works the same way. It's quite simple, and keeps Blissey in check. And seriously, Blissey would already have more hatemail than Cyclohm if he was any good before her final evo, and was actually common.
  12. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    What gets Implemented and what gets Voted are both determined arbitrarily and capriciously by yours truly.

    Thus why Sleep Mechanics are getting fiated, however moves that would circumvent the new rules getting very large makeovers is a voting item. Any status that could cause 3 actions worth of unanswered attacks was far too powerful in the hands of anyone competent to use it. People have lost matches based on one misplay alone, sleep makes what would function as a misplay a matter of course.

    Rage Powder/Follow Me are significant changes with high damage-altering potential. Personally I approve them but since they weren't discussed and make the moves highly valuable I imagine passage will occur easily, but I put it up anyway.

    Same with the second substitution.

    RE: Energy and moves weakening:

    I considered this, but decided against it in the long run. Even for moves like Selfdestruct and Explosion, I don't see anything so inherently broken about them to warrant the need for this. The only thing I might add is a condition that you need the energy to perform a combination with them, but that can easily be added. Otherwise Selfdestruct + Explosion and Explosion + Explosion are absurdly powerful. That being said, the fact Seldestruct has the language means Explosion probably should too, though it should be altered to account for combinations.

    Changes to Explosion and SelfDestruct (open)


    Explosion: The Pokemon mechanically, through the mixing of noxious gases, or simply by release of pent up pressure, creates a massive explosion, fainting itself and causing massive damage to the opponent. This attack hits all adjacent Pokemon. This attack causes the user to faint. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack.

    Attack Power: 25 (user faints) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 20 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Force

    Selfdestruct: The Pokemon focuses all of its energy in its care and releases it all at once, creating a huge explosion. This attack causes the user to faint. This move cannot be used unless the user has enough Energy to afford the resulting attack. This attack hits all adjacent Pokemon.

    Attack Power: 20 (User faints) | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 15 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Set
  13. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
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    I feel that the whole energy thing has inadvertently shifted to a discussion about Explosion and Selfdistruct, rather than moves in general. Personally, I feel that it is a problem in many ways that a Pokemon can use moves without the right amount of energy, but just from a competitive standpoint, what Rediamond said about momentum is really the main problem. If you get a KO in a no switch battle, you basically can abuse this to do massive damage and take yourself out rather than do less and be KOd normally.

    However, I do not believe that we would need to say "no using moves without enough energy" in order to fix it. I think the only restriction should be on combos. If Explosion and Selfdestruct are not allowed to be used in such a scenario, why are combo moves allowed, when they often require more energy and have more power? Even if regular moves can still be used in such a scenario, stopping combos at least keeps things manageable.

    Additionally, there is always the logic behind the mechanics. It has been brought up before about the plausibility of a Pokemon using an attack that it doesn't have the energy for, and I can understand the idea of being able to generate enough for one last normal attack, but having enough energy for all these combos is kinda absurd. Maybe some sort of rule about the amount of energy you can go over would make more sense, as having enough adrenaline to give you that extra 3 energy you need for a Flamethrower makes some sense, but somehow pulling out 25 energy for some absurd combo is just flat out not realistic.

    No matter what, I do think more changes should be done than just to Explosion and Selfdestruct, but I still think it is possible to have some sort of system where last ditch moves are allowed, but without allowing them to be too overpowering.
  14. Objection

    Objection

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  15. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    Well, if we're renovating old moves, I think that Perish Song needs an update (Either this or the removal of Switch=KO matches).

    Old (open)
    Perish Song: The Pokemon lets out a horrible shriek that envelops the entire field. At the end of three (3) rounds, any Pokemon that hears Perish Song will faint. The haunting shriek can even echo through caves and other places. The effect is removed on that Pokemon if the Pokemon switches. This move strikes all Pokemon on the field, including the user.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 15 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    In switch = KO this can be used to ensure a strong pokémon a second KO after a first, for example, Gengar. In switch = OK this move is about as useless as splash. This makes it unbalanced imho, particularly since it can tip the match in a huge manner with a small amount of effort.

    Suggestion (open)
    Perish Song: The Pokemon lets out a horrible shriek that creates a ring of pitch black musical notes which surround the arena. At the end of each round all active Pokemon bar the user take 14 damage, and all active Pokemon bar the user have a 10% chance of flinching each action. The user takes 6 damage and loses 6 EN at the end of each round. The effect is removed when the user is switched out or KOed. The user can remove the effect for 10 EN without using an action. Multiple Perish Songs can be active from different users at the same time.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 10 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    This newer version acts as a large field effect. It loses the ability to be a huge nuke to end a Switch=KO match, and also means that the effect can'[t be dodged with a simple switch in a Switch=OK match. I'd be willing to use this newer variant in either format, but I want other opinions.
  16. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    That is just changing the move to be completely different. We try not to entirely change the move. That is just a totally new field effect, unrelated to Perish Song.

    EDIT: I should have said, but I don't think Perish Song is broken. For one thing, I think Switch = OK will happen more and more, and as movepools get bigger most Pokemon will get PHazing moves for multi battles and many will get U-Turn/Volt Switch for singles. Just work out a way around it if you opponent looks likely to use a Pokemon with it.
  17. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    I disagree - Perish Song is in effect an arena wide move which damages opponents and places the user at risk - this move damages opponents and places the user at risk, but doesn't allow that risk to be nullified by using the move at 2 HP. Do you believe that it is better to let the move remain broken, or to become more balanced? Of course, if you have a solution which stays closer to the "true nature" of the move, fire away.
  18. Gerard

    Gerard

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    There's a move i've always loved but that is kind of useless here
    And i think a little change could be really welcomed
    This makes it closer to the "real" Wish, while helping it to be a big help in Switch=OK battles (where, let's face it, is rarely used thank to you haing to switch and the upcoming pokemon having to move first)

    The cost is about the same of morning sun (since on average pokemon have 100hp and will be recovering 25hp), other pokes can go higher but the cost is increased (blissey would have to give 20% of it's energy if she wants to use it), and helps in doubles a triples where flavor-wise, you should be able to cure your partners trough wishing.
  19. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    http://pastebin.com/s2k9UfnT
    tl;dr version: Zarator posed a question-Should moves that fail to hit the target but affect the user still affect the user? The general consensus is "yes," but we were hoping this could be clarified. (There's also a little bit about raids in there.)

    Just wanted to bring this up.
  20. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    That depends on the move, of course. Something like Skull Bash definitely still affects the user, since the Defense boost is beforehand. Furthermore, unlike in-game, if you use Explosion and there's no target, you still explode and are KOed. These all make sense from a logical anime point of view, so I doubt there's any question there. Things like Charge Beam obviously hinge on the user hitting the target to get the bonus, so if it misses you wouldn't roll for the boost. In most cases, I'd say it's obvious how it should function and doesn't need codification.

    Also, I agree with Gerard about Wish. Even in the case of Blissey with 140 HP, it's only healing 35 HP to the Pokemon coming in, which is the same as a full-power Morning Sun/Moonlight. I think that's fair and a welcome change to the move.
  21. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    I do not consider it worth interpreting based on in-game logic, and it's surprising you say that when you're proposing several changes to moves in the first place. Charge Beam is still charging up that electrical power-and I DON'T think it's obvious how it should function, since I clearly disagree with you on it.
  22. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    Charge Beam gets its power from hitting the opponent and completing the circuit. If you miss, there's no circuit, and there's no power boost.
  23. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    That's not how Charge Beam works.

    Charge Beam: The Pokemon builds up a large amount of electricity in its body, and fires a small beam of it at its opponent. The excess electricity has a high chance of increasing the user’s Special Attack by one (1) stage.

    Most Electric-type attacks use the ground to complete their circuit.
  24. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    http://veekun.com/dex/moves/charge beam

    I think, in the instance of this and Fiery Dance (and perhaps other moves); the boost should be independent of hitting or missing. A move that would have to hit in order to boost would be Meteor Mash or Metal Claw - you literally strop your claws using their face. No surface to strop with; no boost.
  25. Rising_Dusk

    Rising_Dusk
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    I'll give it to you that the in-game descriptions suggest that it would boost without hitting, but I'd argue that Charge Beam and Fiery Dance should have to hit in order for it to get their SpA boost. Part of the value of dodging a move is preventing your opponent from benefiting from it, and I'd like to keep it that way. Furthermore, you can't discriminate between things like Meteor Mash or Metal Claw or whatever; why can't the act of the strike be what gives you the boost, not the hit? I'd honestly like to keep it consistent, but keep it at "no effect unless you hit".
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