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Data State of The Game (11/13/2011) - IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT IN POST #233

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Nov 11, 2011.

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  1. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    DK: I'm Hijacking SDS's Thread for a few updates.

    In regards to the ASB PRC, I think at this point its done its job, and I'l be operating more on a consensus or fiat basis unless something serious comes up, in which case I'll put up a general poll. The game is developed enough where we can trust the refs and players at large. I'm trying to drop a lot of red tape here.

    Announcement of Currency Changes:

    This is an announcement of new system-wide token implementations. These are both effective immediately.

    1. Counters are being consolidated. Trainer Counters and Battle Points are now being rolled together into a single counter type: Currency Counters. Currency Counters are used to buy items and Pokemon, as well as pay for other expenses, such as facilities which may require payment to enter. Similarly, Ref Counters, Business Tokens, Approver Counters, and all similar counters are now rolled together into a single counter type: Universal Counters. These counters may be used as any counter type, and can be applied to Pokemon-specific counters, such as EC/MC/DC. All existing counters are now converted to their new types, effective immediately. The DAT will be updated shortly with the changes, but for now, treat all instances of TC/BP as CC.
    2. Standard match reffing now pays 1 more counter. Just add 1 to whatever the going rate is. This also applies to matches still in progress, but does not apply retroactively. This also does not apply to facilities- their rewards remain at the current levels.

    Move Changes:

    I'm making a move change to Teleport. Currently its usage is not clearly defined.

    Current Teleport:

    Teleport: The Pokemon glows white and then disappears, reappearing in another location several seconds later. The longer the Teleport Range, the greater the energy used. In a switch battle, the Pokemon can also Teleport back to its Pokeball, evading damage for the rest of the round.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 4 + 1 for each meter of distance | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Psychic | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    New Teleport:

    Teleport: The Pokemon glows white and then disappears, reappearing in another location several seconds later. Teleport has 2 distinct uses:
    1. Teleport (Evasive)
    Teleport can be used as a +1 Priority evasive attack. Teleport will evade any single target attack (other than perfect accuracy attacks and No Guard attacks) in a lower priority bracket and +1 priority combination attacks. If used evasively, the Pokemon does not gain any other benefits.
    2. Teleport (Switch)
    [Switch = KO], Teleport can be used to briefly return to a Pokeball and reappear, resetting all of the Pokemon's stat changes and snaps it out of temporary status as well as other effects like Disable, Taunt, and Torment.
    [Switch=OK], In a switch battle, the Teleport user is sent back to its trainer's Poke Ball at the end of the round. The Pokemon that is switched in to replace the user is chosen by the player from their remaining Pokemon, however the trainer that commanded Teleport must attack first. A Pokemon switched out with Teleport can switch without initiating a Switch Phase, but only Pokemon that used Teleport, U-turn or Volt Switch can be swapped out.

    Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Psychic | Priority: +1 Evasive Action, 0 Switch Effect | CT: Passive

    Illusion Note:

    Illusion has been clarified with a sentence defining direct damage.

    Illusion:

    Type: Innate

    Whenever you send this Pokemon out, it can feign the appearance of another member on your squad. If this Pokemon is damaged by a direct attack, the Illusion will cease at the end of the round. Direct damage is any attack that does damage to the Pokemon's HP. Attacks that are evaded, blocked via Protect, or damage a Substitute are not considered direct damage. It will retain the typing and moveset of the Pokemon with Illusion. [Usage Note: PM the ref if you are sending out a Zorua or Zoroark with the info on Zorua/Zoroark and one of your squad members in a Switch=KO battle. You must use that squad member later in the battle though.]

    Pokemon with this ability: Zorua, Zoroark

    Increasing Energy Cost of Dig/Fly/Dive stalling:

    Delaying the hit on Dig/Dive/Fly will now cost 6 Energy (5 with STAB) for every action spent underground/in the air/deeper in water. This cost will only apply if the action is to remain hidden, and not if an attack is ordered the next action.

    Discussion topics:

    Should partial trapping moves have effects other than residual damage?

    These moves aren't particularly strong, but the residual damage is helpful. My current thought process is that a partial trapping move will nullify contact or distance attacks based on whichever is the opposite type of attack to the move (ex. Bind is a contact attack and would nullify distance attacks. Fire Spin is a non-contact attack and would nullify contact attacks)

    Sense notes on STAB:

    Currently the "sense" notes on STAB have no codified effect on attacks. I can think of two ways to resolve this:

    1. Ignore and scrap these sentences.

    2. Create codified arena types where these effects apply, and codify those effects (these effects would be weak, but noticable).

    The second is more complicated of the two, but would increase the depth of the game.

    Otherwise, the floor is open for any other concerns.
  2. Deck Knight

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    I've updated this OP into a State of the Game. Have at it, folks.
  3. Objection

    Objection

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    For partial trapping attacks, I remember reffing a Fire Spin once, and after asking a bit on IRC, I decided that, if the pokemon used any attack that required it to travel through the vortex, it took extra damage. Perhaps the partial trapping moves, instead of nullifying attacks at the opposite range, could give the pokemon using the move somewhere between 25% and 50% recoil? This makes more sense for Bind/Wrap and long-range attacks like Hydro Pump, since being bound close to a pokemon doesn't stop you from hitting it with a blast of water from your mouth, but it does mean that blast is probably going to hit you a bit as well.

    Also, I'm glad we're finally bringing up the issue of "Superior senses in X" and similar statements that have not been codified. I don't have any suggestions on how to codify them yet, but I might be able to come up with something.
  4. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    I would like codification for "superior senses." IDK what to do for them at this moment, though. 10% Accuracy Boost, +1 Speed, +1 any other Stat, +1 BPA to STAB Attacks, +2 Final Damage on STAB, +1 Final Damage on all attacks, and -1 BP on incoming Attacks all sound like good ideas. Maybe we can decide based on Anime precedent which types could get which bonus (or bonuses), so that each type gets a unique boon in certain arenas.

    If we go this route, we'd have to consider if these effects would stack with other type boosts and abilities, though.
  5. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Hmm. A recoil effect for opposite type moves could be helpful. I'd have to add Contact/Non-Contact to the attack list though, but that's all codified game data anyway. Or in other words, about a single afternoon of work.

    As far as arena types, I'm thinking of 18, one for each type, plus Neutral for a Tournament Arena type. I'll have a summary of ideas below a little later. As far as these goes, the idea here is that these are generally supposed to be small benefits, not game changing ones, and in line with the types themselves. Even though Rock would benefit more from accuracy than power, its more of a Power > Accuracy type. In other words, the boosts tend to be more localized to certain moves. And of course, these benefits are only accessed if your STAB matches the Arena type.

    Neutral: No Benefits to any type.
    Bug: Always wins Speed ties. +1 BAP on Multi-Hit Moves.
    Dark: Immune to Accuracy Stat reduction. +10% added to Bite and Dark Pulse flinch chance.
    Dragon: Always wins Speed ties. -1BAP on Ice Moves aimed at Dragon-type Pokemon.
    Electric: Always wins Speed ties. -1BAP on Ground Moves aimed at Electric-type Pokemon.
    Fighting: Immune to Attack Stat reduction. +1BAP on "Punch" and "Kick" moves.
    Fire: Always wins Speed ties. -1BAP on Water Moves aimed at Fire-type Pokemon.
    Flying: Immune to Speed Stat reduction (paralysis still lowers speed). +10 Base Accuracy on Flying-type moves.
    Ghost: Always wins Speed ties. +1 BAP on "Shadow" Moves (e.g. Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Punch).
    Grass: Immune to Special Defense Stat Reduction. No Accuracy check on "Grass" Moves. (E.g. Grass Knot, Grass Pledge, GrassWhistle)
    Ground: Immune to Evasion Stat reduction. +10 Base Accuracy on Ground-type moves.
    Ice: Always win Speed ties. +10 Base Accuracy on Ice-type moves.
    Normal: -1BAP on Fighting Moves aimed at Normal-type Pokemon. +10 Base Accuracy on Normal-type moves.
    Poison: Always wins Speed ties. +1BAP on all moves with a Poison-inflicting effect.
    Psychic: Immune to Special Attack Stat reduction. +10 Base Accuracy on Psychic-type moves.
    Rock: Immune to Defense Stat reduction. +1 BAP on "Rock" Moves (E.g. Rock Throw, Rock Tomb, Rock Wrecker).
    Steel: Immune to the corrosive effects of Acid and Acid Spray. +1BAP on "Iron" and "Steel" Moves (E.g. Iron Head, Iron Tail, Steel Wing)
    Water: Always wins speed ties. -1BAP on Electric moves aimed at Water-type Pokemon.
  6. Objection

    Objection

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    After some discussion on IRC, it has come to our attention that the current wording of the new Teleport description is a bit confusing, as it implies that Teleport can be used while taunted. This is obviously not the case, but this means that Teleport cannot remove Taunt, which contradicts the description, which says that Teleport can remove Taunt. There's also the problem that U-Turn and Volt Switch share that is the occasional "Does effect X get removed?" in the chat. Therefore, an alternative phrase has been proposed:

    "When this move is used succesfully, any stat boost and secondary status is removed."

    This way, there is no implication of Teleport being able to remove Taunt yet the phrase still works for U-Turn and Volt Switch. Plus, it covers all effects that the moves should cover.

    Credit goes to Dogfish44 for that phrase btw.
  7. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    Alright, time for Red's obligatory rant. Yeah, those things...

    Dig and crew

    I realize they cost 11 energy, which is just a little less than a Protect and 8BAP attack combined. However, they can still easily dominate a match. Most expereinced players know what I'm talking about here, and are it's impossible to deny their power. Basically, if your opponent is faster, they can evade almost any attack, leaving only a handful of options available. Don't have one? Sorry, you're going to be screwed over, as the opponent can avoid any single attack and do damage in the meantime, shutting down most every strategy a player has and sometimes dealing a fair amount of damage.

    I realize options exist. However, in most NFE battles, or on Pokemon with shallower movepools, the Pokemon will be decimated. Combinations can circumvent them, but they cost two actions and a lot of energy.

    My point is, even if they can be worked around, it is difficult and limits options to only a handful, meaning the player with Fly or Dog automatically has the opponent at a disadvantage and severely limited. This is different from other limiting moves such as Taunt which need to be worked around and limit about half of a Pokemon's options. In this case, instead of having only an offensive movepool to work with, a Pokemon only has three to four viable moves that can't be easily dodged, and this requires a substitution to not get screwed. In my opinion, this is at least as powerful as Old Burn for shutting down options, if not better.

    Therefore, I have my stupid solution for someone else to shut down and improve:

    Make Dig a two action move. Action one, he flies up high at 0 priority. Action two, he hits at 0 priority. This means they can only avoid 50% of attacks, and can't continuously spam to get three protects, or gain more turns to attack than the opponent does, making it a good move to dodge, but not the deciding factor in almost every match it appears in.
  8. Alchemator

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    Looking over the arena benefits, +10% acc for Psychic-types doesn't help very much at all. It benefits Hypnosis, and that's it as far as I can see.

    How about one extra action on moves like Reflect and Safeguard?
  9. Spenstar

    Spenstar

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    Not codifying these would be a huge waste. I like Kaxtar's ideas the best, namely +1 Accuracy and +1 to the STAB bonus (and/or an additional -1 energy to STAB moves). These are specific, but universal. Each type already has a specific arena type they have an advantage in, let's not make the bonuses also differ with each type. An accuracy boost and an upgrade in the STAB bonus for the STAB arenas would be perfect.
  10. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    I'd like to hear some thoughts on the relation with distance in respect to bodyblock and take cover. For example, in a recent match I had, on the first turn of triples action I had Onix bodyblock for Slowpoke, Onix and Slowpoke standing like 3 feet beside each other. The opposing Sneasel acted, still able to hit Slowpoke despite standing on the other side of the arena, which iirc was quantified at 60 feet. Now regardless of how fast a Pokemon could be (unless its Deoxys or something) I find it difficult they could cover 60 feet quicker than another Pokemon that isn't slow as fuck (Onix has 60, Sneasel 115 for reference) could cover 3 feet.

    Just an issue I wanted to hear some discussion on and was told to bring it up in the SotG
  11. Gerard

    Gerard

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    This is what I was about to say, it helps hypnosis and... Zen Headbutt?, really that's the reason i have TR because of the 10% acc increase and telekinesis if i want to use it, how about an increase of one round in rooms (magic, wonder, trick) or in support moves since that's where psychic actually shines

    On a similar note, on Ice pokes, how about a "serene grace" effect on ice moves when used in an Ice Arena?, like Ice beam has a 20% chance of freazing (like dark's one), flavor wise it fits considering it's an Ice arena, and it could give them interesting probabilities to screw over the types they're week against

    Also so many pokes with "always wins speed ties", I think we will probably see two of them colide, still nice idea to codify them considering other than water there were completely to the ref (and i'm pretty sure even water wasn't used)

    PS: shouldn't grass retain the immunity to powders?
  12. Deck Knight

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    Unless it was a priority move like Quick Attack, that's a fair criticism. This is one of those areas that's almost impossible to codify though. "Use Common Sense" only goes so far.

    Incidentally, I do plan on altering Dig/Fly/Dive, in that I'm changing the hit delay from costing 3 Energy to 6 Energy, with STAB reducing it down to 5. This at least prevents hiding out with the moves and not attacking. Otherwise the ways around the moves are well known.
  13. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    While well known, they are few.
    These are:
    -Thunder Wave: while some Pokemon are immune, it is probably the best. The problem comes when they can just use fly to avoid it.
    -Trick Room: The second best, although it's distribution is limited and some Pokemon can Trick Room (or taunt) to stop it.
    -Thunder/Surf/Magnitude/Earthquake/Twister/Gust/Sky Uppercut: Don't have this particular move, sorry, you're screwed. While they have good distribution, saying "you're screwed, but it's your fault for not having move X or Y" seems to be going a bit far.
    -Torment: Only disrupts continual spamming, can also be taunted or just flown over.
    -Other Dig clones: It checks itself is terrible logic
    -Revenge: Distribution issues, not always particularly effective either
    -Counter: Alright, so this is pretty fail-safe. We're up to one that can't be reliably outplayed.
    -Combinations: Congrats, you just forfeited a turn and a lot of energy to actually hit something.
    -Priority: You're 4BAP attack is used. You get hit by an 8BAP attack. I'll accept this as reliable counter two though.


    Alright, there are ways around it. However, most of them are either bad, have poor distribution, or can be outplayed by the move itself. The fact is, your total available options are now limited to those above, just because of one move. Don't have one? Give up now. You aren't going to win. It's just the sheer ability of being able to dodge almost any move and strike for decent damage that pushes it over the edge into broken. It literally requires a move substitution goes towards it so the Pokemon won't get screwed over as well, meaning that it should at least be duly considered as a possibly broken move as it currently is.

    And I've found that hiding underground isn't usually as bad as the move itself, as no side is really doing damage. It's when you get in an attack but the opponent can't hit you back that problems arise.
  14. Kaxtar

    Kaxtar

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    Rediamond, those stops to Dig/Dive/Bounce/Fly are more than enough ways to prevent Dig from being an OP strategy. All Pokemon have access to Combos (which are a lot stronger than regular moves), and moves like T-Wave and others have stupidly large distribution. If anything, your post only helps to prove how Dig/Dive/Bounce/Fly are, in fact, not overpowered.
  15. Deck Knight

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    You missed a few:

    Use a Speed Booster on yourself to become faster.
    Sub + Focus Punch.
    Avalanche, Revenge's counterpart.
    Pursuit (which has 8BAP as Dig/Fly/Bounce/Dive start as evasive actions).
    Circle Throw/Dragon Tail.
    Moves that don't have an accuracy check.
    Evasive Agility (and now Teleport).
    Set up Double Team clones (these make the single target attack quite likely to miss, and 2 clones cost less than a usage of Dig, while 3 cost about the same.)

    EDIT: Also Smoke Ball in items battles.
    Smoke Ball: The Pokemon negates all of its own accuracy drops, all of its opponent's evasion boosts, and the effects of an opponent's Double Team. Actions used evasively always fail against the Pokemon. If the opponent uses Dig, Bounce, or similar moves, the carrier of Smoke Ball always strikes just before the opponent can take evasive action, even if it would normally be slower.

    The sum of all these methods don't really have poor distribution, and pretty much all of them except combos (which can do comparable damage to two actions worth) are more energy efficient than Dig/Bounce/Fly.
  16. Engineer Pikachu

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    I definitely think partial trapping moves should have some effect; instead of causing recoil, though, I think something like reduced BAP or increased energy would make more sense (if you're trapped in a fire spin, using a contact attack will either require more effort or have reduced effect).

    I'd also like to ask a couple things about the energy costs of certain moves.

    Avalanche: Right now, it is a 6 or 12 BAP attack that costs 6 energy. Its clone, Revenge, costs 8 energy. Given that the only reason you'd use Avalanche over something like Ice Punch or Fang is if you're being attacked, shouldn't the energy cost reflect the maximum BAP? For example, Brine and Venom Shock are both 7 or 13 BP/8 En, which shows that the energy cost reflects the maximum BAP.

    Confuse Ray: It's currently 5 energy. On average, confusion makes you hit yourself in confusion at least once 85% of the time. It also makes you hit yourself more than once about 21% of the time. If it is almost guaranteed for confusion to disrupt your opponent's actions at least once, why does it cost so little?

    In the same vein, Chatter: It has a decent 6 BAP, and is guaranteed to cause confusion. Yet, its energy cost is identical to that of Confuse Ray. I propose that Chatter's energy cost should be the same as the standard cost of a 6 BAP move and Confuse Ray combined; you're getting both effects in just one action, so this is actually a good deal. Instead of the current 5 energy, perhaps a (5 + 4) = 9 energy cost is warranted.
  17. Deck Knight

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    Avalanche is just a DAT fix. It should cost the same as Revenge.

    All Confusion only moves currently cost 5 Energy (except Supersonic, which causes 4). Dynamicpunch is 7 EC since its a damaging attack. In any case, Chatter is Chatot only (and I guess Smeargle if you Sketch it), and its EC is based on being a damaging attack. It just happens to have an additional effect. I could bump up their costs to 7 like the permanent status inducing moves I suppose, but I'd like more feedback.
  18. Gerard

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    Or you could just leave that to Chatot (who nobody has) and smeargle (from which you need an existing chatot), think of it as a signature item, they are supposed to be good to give and edge to somehow underpowered pokemon

    About trapping moves i think recoil is a ver nice option, but it could be a case-by-case situation (fire spin should cause damage, but probably more than whirlpool against grass pokes)

    Edit: DA is correct, only Chatot is able to use it in-game, then why can't we leave hi that little thing, he's outclassed everywhere else
  19. Darkamber8828

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    I was under the impression that Chatter was one of the only unSketchable moves, along with Sketch. Source.

    Can Smeargle Sketch it? Because it would be pretty sweet with Technician.
  20. Alchemator

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    The only reason it's unsketchable is because of the in-game quality of Chatter -- that is, you can record the sound it makes. On an internet forum this technicality isn't apparent.

    Then again, if we want to be absolutely true to the games it would be unsketchable.
  21. Lord Jesseus

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    That's not strictly true. I've found taking into account STAB and high attacking stats, a combination is often weaker than the two attacks used separately.
    For instance, a Tyranitar using Stone Edge on a Rank 3 Def Pokemon does 16 damage, two would do 32. A Stone Edge+Stone Edge Combo only does 28.5, which is close but still weaker, not to mention energy costly. And that's with a 2.25 multiplier to BAP, iirc combos of different moves don't get this nice boost.
    SE: 10+3+3=16
    SSE: 22.5+3+3=28.5
    Worth noting: There is a larger gap when using weaker moves in combo, 2 Rock Slides=28, Double Rock Slide=24

    But that's not what I'm here for.
    I'd like to look at multi-hit moves, because I think the way they work currently has some issues.
    The current calculation method (bap*number of hits + stab + stat differential etc) works fine for normal circumstances, but there are instances where it poses a problem.
    The main one is substitutes. Say the attack has enough power to break the sub and do some damage to the mon behind it. But how do we determine how much is absorbed by the sub? Do we just say it takes exactly as much as it had and the rest goes through? Or what? I really don't know how to handle that.
    I personally think multi-hit moves should be calculated on a per-hit basis, as in find the damage for one hit and multiply that by the number of hits. Obviously there would have to be some nerfing of the effects of stab and stat differential (I was thinking reduce STAB to 1, similar to crits) but I think overall it would be a logical change.
    You could then work out how many hits breaks a sub, and how many hits go through to hit the mon.
    It has other applications too, eg to hit multiple targets. "Cloyster use Rock Blast to hit all of the clones and the real Charizard!"
  22. Deck Knight

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    Multi-Hits vs. Subs are easy, just calculate the number of hits and any damage over and above the Substitute's current HP is applied to the opponent. If there are any other effects (e.g. Twineedle's Poison effect) they are rolled against the opponent since they are damaged by the attack.
  23. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    I brought up two things a while ago which people seemed to like and which were never changed afaik: deleting/giving away mons and posting in ongoing matches.

    For the first, yes, -Charmander-, unfair advantage, against ASB, blah blah blah, but some of us have Pokemon we don't want. It happens. Now either they should be sent to another 'releasing' thread, or they should be allowed to be given away. I would vote for giving away being an option. It isn't really gamebreaking, people were just butthurt because they didn't get one of -Charmander-'s strongmons. I think that there aren't really any good reasons against, but that can be for others to discuss.

    For the second, iirc this rule was introduced because it was thought that there would just be a storm of posts in unrelated threads, possibly to add to pc++. However, I'm not convinced that this would happen, and I don't think it was ever actually tried. I think it would foster a greater community atmosphere if people can engage more with others' games and the players would enjoy it too. It would be like people entering and watching battles of big players or friends on Pokemon Online. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts. Keep in mind that pc++ would still be a problem, but with more mods than ever coming up, I'm sure it could be managed and be worth it, and if it ends up not working we could just go back to the old system. It's not the first time we've done something like this.
  24. Objection

    Objection

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    Actually Atheno, I think the reason for the second rule is to stop people from being able to suggest tactics to either battler.
  25. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    With IRC, PMs and VMs, I wouldn't have thought that was a huge consideration. If people want to advise then they will.
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