1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Data State of The Game (11/13/2011) - IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT IN POST #233

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Nov 11, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Gerard

    Gerard

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    4,392
    Is there a reason Trace activates with an action? when many of the other abilities that activate as soon as you switch in (Intimidate, Download, etc...) and only two FE pokemon have it, without being activated when you switch in then you lose a lot of the power of it (like waisting a turn to trace Volt Absorb but you're hit by Thunder Wave before) since your opponent now knows your traced ability in the next rounds, making it a little less useful
  2. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,695
    Because you might want to Trace an ability that is on a mon that isn't out yet but will be soon? I was actually considering that in one of my battles, using Trace to get my ally's ability when said ally wouldn't be released until at least 2 rounds had passed. Unfortunately, by the time that opportunity came around, the Trace user was on too low health for it to be worth it, but still.
  3. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    2,628
    ...Can we just make Trace "Can be Enabled" as a lot of the time taking an action to Trace an ability for 6 actions isn't worth it anyway?
  4. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,618
    [box]Illuminate:

    Type: Can be Activated

    When this Pokemon initially goes out into the battlefield, it generates an intense light that blinds opponents, reducing their Accuracy stage by one (1). The accuracy drop is maintained at the end of each round. If an opponent switches in a new Pokemon, Illuminate can be activated again as an Action, and will affect all opponents.

    Command: (Ability: Illuminate)

    Pokemon with this ability: Staryu, Starmie, Chinchou, Lanturn, Volbeat, Watchog.[/box]

    This is basically just free Skill Swap bait. Is there any reason it doesn't trigger, say, when the Pokémon gains the ability as well as upon entry?

    This concern also applies to Intimidate.
  5. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,979
    oyeah guys let's nerf illuminate free accuracy drops are incredibly irritating
  6. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,030
    Perhaps make the drop not-permanent?
    It doesn't help Lou's problem at all but towards the end of nerfing it in general...
  7. Spenstar

    Spenstar

    Joined:
    May 6, 2010
    Messages:
    1,856
    Or we could just give it a different effect completely.

    I was thinking something along the lines of...

    [box]Illuminate:

    Type: Innate

    This Pokemon emits a piercing light that reveals the opponents' weak points, cancelling all type-based immunities on opponents' Pokemon.

    Pokemon with this ability: Staryu, Starmie, Chinchou, Lanturn, Volbeat, Watchog.[/box]

    Or something.
  8. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,267
    Okay, so this was reviewed on IRC and approved by Deck Knight and all other ASB officials, so this is a thing that will be implemented.

    SUBSTITUTION REVAMP

    First things first, this introduces the concept of "Substitution Classes". These are moves that are grouped together and are considered the "same move" for the purpose of a single substitution condition. These classes will be rigidly defined, used for the purpose of grouping together moves with the same effect. This would include non-attacking moves with the same effect but NOT attacking moves with that effect. For example: Stun Spore, Thunder Wave, Glare would be in the class Paralysis-Inflicting Move, but Body Slam and Discharge would not be. Obviously, not every move will have a class- unique effects like Taunt, Torment, or Perish Song would not have an associated class. These classes are also fairly specific. Paralysis-inflicting moves (Thunder Wave, Stun Spore, Glare) would be a distinct class from Poison-inflicting moves (Poison Gas, Poisonpowder, Toxic), and no "Status-inducing Moves" class will exist.

    There is one specific exception to this rule: Protective Actions and Evasive Actions. Protect and Detect belong to their own class (for the purpose of Feint substitution), and Agility (Evasive) and Teleport (Evasive) belong to their own class (for the purpose of area-target substitution). However, the two classes can be combined into a single class: Protective / Evasive Actions. This is the only class combination that is allowed.

    For the purposes of general use, this implements the following classes:

    Protective Moves: Protect, Detect

    Evasive Moves: Agility (Evasive), Teleport (Evasive)

    Damaging Evasive Moves: Dig, Fly, Dive, Bounce, Shadow Force

    Paralysis-Inflicting Moves: Thunder Wave, Glare, Stun Spore

    Poison-Inflicting Moves: Poison Gas, Poisonpowder, Toxic

    Sleep-Inflicting Moves: Spore, Hypnosis, Sleep Powder, Sing, Grasswhistle, Lovely Kiss, Dark Void, Yawn

    Confusion-Inflicting Moves: Confuse Ray, Supersonic, Sweet Kiss, Teeter Dance, Swagger, Flatter

    Switch-Preventing Moves (Only allowed during Switch = OK): Block, Mean Look, Spider Web

    Trapping Moves: Fire Spin, Sand Tomb, Whirlpool, Magma Storm, Bind, Wrap, Clamp

    Switch-Forcing Moves: Whirlwind, Roar, Circle Throw, Dragon Tail

    Self-Switching Moves: U-Turn, Volt Switch, Teleport (Switch)

    Healing Moves: Roost, Slack Off, Recover, Moonlight, Synthesis, Morning Sun, Softboiled, Heal Order, Milk Drink, Swallow

    Status-Healing Moves: Aromatherapy, Heal Bell, Refresh

    Lock-On Moves: Lock-On, Mind Reader

    Attack-Reducing Moves: Growl, Charm, Featherdance, Memento

    Defense-Reducing Moves: Leer, Tail Whip, Screech

    Special Attack-Reducing Moves: Captivate, Memento

    Special Defense-Reducing Moves: Fake Tears, Metal Sound

    Speed-Reducing Moves: String Shot, Cotton Spore, Scary Face, Bulldoze, Icy Wind, Mud Shot, Rock Tomb, Electroweb, Glaciate, Low Sweep

    Accuracy-Reducing Moves: Flash, Kinesis, Sand-Attack, Smokescreen

    There is also an additional class that is implemented in this update- 17 to be precise. Specifically, "Damaging. One can specify, for example, "Damaging Fire-type Moves", and it would apply to all moves of the type Fire with a Base Attack Power stat. This would apply exclusively to damaging attacks, and must be applied entirely or not at all. For example: "Damaging Water-type Moves" is legal, but "All Damaging Water-type Moves except Surf" is not. You may only sub against one move or all moves of a class.

    In addition to this, the "Substitution Thresholds" are no longer in effect. Instead, number of substitutions is a claused amount to be set per battle, in the same way as items, abilities, and chills/recoveries. It defaults to 1 sub for Basic, and 2 subs for Stage 2, Stage 3, or Single Stage Pokemon. Number of substitutions must be set at the beginning of the battle. The number of subs must be agreed upon by all parties in the battle. There is no cap, but exercise restraint- too many subs clogs things up and can get silly for the ref.

    This is now considered implemented for any battles beginning after the time of this post. It does not affect battles currently in progress unless both/all battlers agree to adopt it.
  9. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,267
    Another implementation to be aware of:

    Agility, Teleport, and Dodge Command all now work in the same way as Protect and Detect, in that consecutive uses fail. This also stacks with the consecutive use failure for Protect and Detect.
  10. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,979
    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

    Rest?
  11. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,030
    Rest is different, I think its sensible to discount it.

    Consecutive agility/teleport failing is a good idea, and the new system for substitution amounts is brilliant and simplifies the process.

    On the other hand the groupings complicate things, though may be easy to get used to... I'm not sure I'm comfortable with being able to sub against entire types though, I think that may be taking it too far.
  12. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,936
    This is completely unnecessary now that they are all grouped under one sub.

    In other news, my Swampert may now be considered God. Always and forever.
  13. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,267
    Oh, one last thing.

    I've updated the rules on starting genderless Pokemon.

    If your Pokemon has no Egg Moves, you may select 3 Tutor Moves or Special Event Moves from any generation. If that Pokemon also has no Tutor Moves or Special Event Moves, you may select 3 TMs from any generation.

    This will give a retroactive bonus to all genderless Pokemon purchased. These Pokemon may receive two (2) applicable moves learned by their basic form. If the Pokemon is unable to learn any more Tutor Moves (due to having learned all of them), this bonus is forfeit. Evolved Pokemon may not use this to purchase Tutor, Event, or TM Moves learned by the evolved form and not the baby / basic form. You do not have to forfeit the Level-Up moves earned when initially purchased.
  14. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,030
    AW YEAH RETROACTIVE
    ROTOM THANKS YOU
  15. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,618
    A lot of things about the substitutions revamp bug me, but I will address that at some point when I have more concrete reasoning.

    At the moment I will cite being able to sub against Sucker Punch (a priority move), Pursuit (an evasion counter),and Night Slash (a basic attacking move) simultaneously seems extremely strong.

    "If Pokémon A uses any STAB move, do X"

    "Don't buy mons with only one STAB" is not a valid answer to this.
  16. C$FP

    C$FP

    Joined:
    May 6, 2011
    Messages:
    4,715
    I don't exactly see why "If Pokémon A uses any STAB move, do X" is bad. Where exactly would one go with that sub in a general situation that makes it so powerful? (btw I am not saying that this certainly could not be argued as powerful, I am just wondering what your basis is)
  17. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,612
    This doesn't work in practice because any sub other than Protect/Detect is subject to things like priority or field effects. Using an evasive action against damaging Dark moves just makes a Pokemon Pursuit bait, because ASB Pursuit ignores evasion against evasive actions (since it's in-game effect is irrelevant).

    Furthermore there's no "fail chance" associated with Protect and Detect. They work once a round. I'm vetoing applying Agility/Teleport to the same counter as Protect/Detect no such counter exists, and those attacks can be worked around through other methods.
  18. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,936
    Thank you DK. But does that mean that SDS just announced a large change to the rules without actually discussing it with anyone? Because I think there is an issue if he feels that he can and should do that. And it feels like he's doing it a bit.
  19. Alchemator

    Alchemator my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,803
    There is a fail chance: 100%.

    'Once a round' is certainly not how the current effect is accepted, also.

    Please provide reasoning, E.G. 'other methods'.

    I should also make it clear that my support for the sub-grouping was based on the condition that it would be tested rather than fiated.
  20. Objection

    Objection

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2008
    Messages:
    5,695
    I was under the impression that Protect and Detect could be used more than once a round like this: Protect - some other move - Protect. To my knowledge, it has never been once per round unless the round only has two actions.
  21. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight DK! DK! Donkey Kong is here!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,612
    Yeah, I goofed on the Protect/Detect thing.

    Also, as far as fixing Illuminate, I think I'll weaken it since -Accuracy is a pain in the rear. Basically it will be like using Flash but will have the same decay rate as stat boosters usually do, so it'll last for 6 actions.

    A few other issues:

    Pain Split:
    A cap of 25 Damage/25 Healing will be established on the move. It will still cost the full calculated energy, so you *can* use it if you're down more than 25 HP, but it will still suck up energy if it's a lot more than 25 down.

    Protect/Detect: Will have the denominator in the damage blocked formula reduced from 3 to 2.5.

    Double Team will be updated with ASB parlance.
  22. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Messages:
    2,958
    About time on Double Team, literally no player/ref has used it as stated in the DAT since ASB's introduction... What will the exact wording be?
  23. Alchemator

    Alchemator my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,803
    It is quite interesting that Atheno claims that consecutive Teleport/Agility is not overpowered, and is about to have it abused in our battle.

    Also on that note, the issue has been dismissed rather than solved. Can you please explain your opposition to having it work like Protect/Detect in said regard?
  24. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,936
    Just because I'm using it doesn't mean it is overpowered. It needed very specific attack spam from you to be useful. And if it were never useful I wouldn't argue against it being changed, because it wouldn't matter.
  25. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    4,030
    Hey so with the new substitution rules is it still necessary to list the amount of moves a Pokemon knows?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)