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Data State of The Game (11/13/2011) - IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT IN POST #233

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Nov 11, 2011.

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  1. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Not really, same with Base Rank Total.
  2. Temperantia

    Temperantia

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    Halle-flippin-lujah, that's one pain in the arse gone from claiming.

    BRT isn't nearly as annoying to figure out. Plus, its the closest thing ASB has to a measure of Pokemon viability...


    EDIT: Post Count=1,111 :D
  3. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Move Count and BRT together still give us a nice rating for the strength and training level of a given mon, all things considered.
  4. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Eh, its a pain in the rear to keep track of and now superfluous, though it was good from a data perspective to give matchup strength I guess. Not required any longer though.
  5. Objection

    Objection

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    There may be certain circumstances in which it is a good idea to keep a note of a pokemon's BRT and/or move count, such as arena effects or, as with the case of the gym leader battle between me and jas, deciding who sends out first.

    But yes, if the reason for BRT and move count being compulsory is no longer valid, then that would mean BRT and move count are no longer compulsory.
  6. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    You'll notice I never said "keep them compulsory." Just don't remove them if you already have them, is all.

    ===

    Giga Drain should really cost more like 8 or 10—it has healing, but it's a pittance on anything that isn't already getting destroyed by it.

    Assuming grass neutrality, a R5 STAB user can heal ((8 + 3 + 7.5 - 4.5) / 2) = 7 HP a use for... 11 En to start with, then 15, then 19. The move is priced at more than the summed healing and damage are worth, currently.

    At most, this draining effect can earn you perhaps one more action—but that assumes you use it successively, which you won't because that will Exhaust you at ridiculous speed.
  7. deadfox081

    deadfox081

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    All the draining moves have an energy cost significantly higher than other moves with similar BP. Drain Punch costs the same as Giga Drain and its more than a fair cost. The HP gained from these attacks is a huge selling point. Sure the healing may be minimal on neutral oppoents (not that I would call 7 HP healed while doing damage exactly minimal) but think for a second you hit something super effectively. Suddenly you're healing 11 damage while simultaneously doing 21. Not to mention there are a number of Pokes who are 4 times weak to both Grass and Fighting, your 11 EN just did an average of 32 while healing you 16. Then don't even get me started on Big Root.
  8. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    To be fair, looking at either healing or draining with these moves is unfair. You must consider that in your example (7 healed, 14 damage done) the gap between the battlers in HP increased by 21 in your favor. To compare, you would have to have a Base 15 attack to do this with Rank Five and STAB. If anything, (15/2)+2=9.5 so 9 or 10 energy (how do we do rounding again?) would make sense.

    I'll shut up before I say to much I might regret.
  9. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    Exactly. For further comparison, healing moves heal 20 HP and for pokes with 100 HP it costs... 12 EN. The same. So in your example, Drain Punch/Giga Drain actually shifts the HP gap more in your favour for the same energy. And if you're doing some hefty damage to low def or type-weak opponents, well...
    You're kidding yourself if you think they're a rip-off for EN.
    edit: at least compared to healing moves
  10. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    OK, the actual Chance Substitution rules have apparently been completely ignored in reffings for quite a while (A large portion of people have only found this out through an IRC debate today). I'm actually gonna post a suggestion to add to the Data Audit thread in lieu of the current rules, and use the popular method:

    "Chance Substitution: A substitution based upon an event where it is uncertain that the event will occur. They can either change the action during which the event occurred, or an action after the event.
    If used during the action during which an event occurs, the event must occur before the action. In addition, the Priority of the substitution action must be the same as the priority of the action that is now being replaced. If a move has multiple stages, the first priority stage is used."

    This enables subbing for paralysis occurring or burns occurring in the action which a response is wanted - which is actually illegal.
  11. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    Support for df's proposal. It has worked well when everyone used it, and the priority bit stops the Counter/Focus Punch abuse that everyone is scared of.
  12. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Support. I had no idea it wasn't like this already.

    for reference

    this stuff really should be in the data tower
  13. Objection

    Objection

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    I like Dogfish's proposal as well. I mean, changing tactics halfway through if the situation calls for it does make sense.
  14. Flamestrike

    Flamestrike

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    Rapid Spin: The Pokemon spins extremely quickly in place, generating a pulse of air that frees the Pokemon from any grasp the opponent has on it and physically knocking away Leech Seed, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock that are on its side of the arena. If Rapid Spin removes a hazard from the field, the Rapid Spin user will suffer the damage/effects of the removed hazard.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive

    I understand that when this was put in place hazards were rarely used and in need of a buff, and that this makes sense common sense wise. But this is a bit much. Hazards will always be useless in smaller matches, but they are already extremely good in bigger matches, and Rapid Spin is practically the only way to combat them. Right now though Rapid Spin is worse than useless, as spinning forces you to take the damage twice, which can be a lot. Not only that, but if the spike layer is still around, they can just come back in and set right back up on you! And if you try to keep them from setting up by spinning, you're basically just letting them rack up more damage. I dunno, I really don't think this is necessary and that it would be better for the game if it was the way it used to be.
  15. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    ^I agree with everything in the above post. I wasn't really sure about it when we started that tbh.

    EDIT @ Gerard: What?
  16. Gerard

    Gerard

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    Just to add to that, a huge number or pokes can set up SR, and (altough less number) can do the same with Spikes and T-Spikes (with many of them being fairly bulky), vs the number of pokes that can remove them (outside of 3 CAPs and Starmie) most other pokes with it are rare in ASB and most teams will only have one if any to deal with them, so if that poke dies then you're stuck with such hazzards to hurt your team for the rest of them match

    Many pokes can ser up hazzards, very few can remove them and hurting yourself while doing it it's extemely frustrating when you know if this mons dies you're (very likely) stuck with SR and co. for the rest of the match
    .
  17. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    Agreeing about Rapid Spin.

    Also I'm going to bring this up here because things don't seem to get noticed in the DAT:
  18. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    Agreeing about Rapid Spin.

    Also concurring with the Safeguard—is there any particular reason the lesser-known third screen was nerfed so hard?
  19. Lord Jesseus

    Lord Jesseus

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    To be fair it does last longer than the others...

    Another thing that bugs me: as far as I know, Pokemon not sent into battle do not get counters.
    I take issue with this; for instance in a battle I'm reffing one player is basically dominating the other to the extent that unless he delibrately gets one of his mons killed off, the last mon will probably not even see the battle and thus gain no counters.
    This means that due to being the better* battler, he'll actually recieve less counters overall than his opponent unless he deliberately gets his own mon kod.
    The rule makes sense for DQ battles that end prematurely, but I think in the case of completed battles, the winner should automatically recieve counters for all mons as though they'd been sent into battle (the loser of course needs no such rule).

    *better is of course a loose term, factors such as mon mathcups obviously come into play as well as player skill.

    PS no offense intended toward the battler/s I'm talking about
  20. deadfox081

    deadfox081

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    Okay, I have two things to gripe about.

    Why exactly did we enact the "illegal actions need to be reissued" rule? It seems to me that people who aren't fully thinking through or researching their actions are getting a free pass to correct these mistakes instead of being forced to learn to perform better by having moves fail/not be performed as intended. This is in my opinion a very unwelcome dumbing down of ASB and removes a large amount of the oneupsmanship this game used to have.

    The second is possibly less controversial. Sky Drop is currently drastically overpowered.

    It seems we have for some reason taken what is a 60 BP move ingame and made it BP 9-10 against your average weight class poke. The energy cost formula is also out of whack with the accepted BP to EN conventions, with BP 10 only costing 6 EN (before STAB, which every ASB legal Poke has on it) rather than the expected 7. The move is really only intended to be used for its secondary effect and having it deal upwards of 15 points of neutral damage on top of this is a little out of line.
  21. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    Thank you. I've been meaning to bring this up for a while, and there are 2 reasons. One is to be friendlier to newbies, and one is to prevent EN stall wars. I wholeheartedly agree with this being revoked in non beginner battles, and replaced with this:

    • An illegal action cannot be reffed in a beginner battle. The ref must alert the participant as to why the move is illegal, explain how the situation will be rectified, and how in non beginner battles the move would fail at a high EN cost.
    • An illegal action is defined as an action where at the start of the round, it will fail due to an effect known in advance. This does not include moves which fail when used consecutively, since they may be prevented due to the effects of hax.
    • In the event of legality issues with restricted recoveries or chills, the move is not considered illegal, but the action will fail.
    • Substitute Actions will NOT be triggered by moves which are illegal, or moves which fail due to an effect not known at the start of the round.
    • A move which is illegal will take 10 EN.
    • A move that otherwise fails will cause the user to use struggle (Even if Torment prevents this from occuring).

    This is just a rough draft, but it's to outline a proposal which retains the benefits of illegal = reorder, whilst removing the negative effects and bringing back a more skill required game.
  22. Flamestrike

    Flamestrike

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    The reason ordering an illegal move is grounds for a reorder is because that's how it works in-game. In-game, if you're taunted you can't order Spore. In-game, if you don't know Fire Blast, you can't order Fire Blast. Yes I know this is Anime Style Battling, but the game is still built upon in-game stats and mechanics, and this is one of those mechanics that IMO it should still follow. If you want to prove your "oneupmanship" then take advantage of their orders when you order second, and make sure they can't do the same to you when you order first. Getting an advantage because your opponent made a silly mistake (and while you can argue that it's their fault for trying to use a move that they couldn't use for some reason, people do sometimes make mistakes such as trying to use a move they haven't learned yet or forgetting they're Taunted/Tormented) doesn't prove that you're better than them, it's just a really lucky break for you.

    @ DF That solution wouldn't work very well simply because no one ever uses the official Beginner Battle rules anymore; most new players simply specify that they're using only NFEs. Then again I suppose with that in place more people would use them, but I still disagree with it for the reasons outline in my first paragraph.
  23. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    We also have rules which completely ignore the in-game precedent, and we were all perfectly happy before the rule was added. CAPASB is supposed to be more competitive than your standard ASB - All of which I've seen do ref illegal orders - And beginner battles would come into more common standards if it was emphasized.

    Also, I don't see your logic in missing moves or status effects. Say I misread an opponent's status or miss a move when I make subs. Yet that doesn't make my orders illegal and being allowed to re-order them with this new info in mind.
  24. LouisCyphre

    LouisCyphre heralds disaster.

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    I'm going to side with Flamestrike on this one—eliminating the potential for that kind of abuse tilts the game more towards the skilled opponent, which is what we want.

    I know I've had those late nights coming home and trying to meet a DQ, only to be told to reorder because I typed an attack I don't know. That's skirting on a different issue, though.
  25. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    18:43 Engineer if you want to discuss Rapid Spin, SotG please

    Current Rapid Spin (open)

    Rapid Spin: The Pokemon spins extremely quickly in place, generating a pulse of air that frees the Pokemon from any grasp the opponent has on it and physically knocking away Leech Seed, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock that are on its side of the arena. If Rapid Spin removes a hazard from the field, the Rapid Spin user will suffer the damage/effects of the removed hazard.

    Attack Power: 4 | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 3 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive


    New Rapid Spin Idea (open)

    Rapid Spin: The Pokemon spins extremely quickly in place, generating a pulse of air that frees the Pokemon from any grasp the opponent has on it and physically knocking away Leech Seed, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock as sharp objects at the opponent. If Rapid Spin removes a hazard from the field, the Rapid Spin user will suffer the damage/effects of the removed hazard. However, if Rapid Spin or a combo containing it knocks away more than 3 layers of hazards, Rapid Spin or the combo will bypass moves such as Protect, become unstoppable (negating flinch effects and full paralysis rolls), and become unable to miss.

    Attack Power: 2+5 for every layers of Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock+2 for every Leech Seed and Binding effect | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: 0 | CT: Strongly Deferring [special class reserved for Rapid Spin, which Deferring supercedes. The intent is to enable typing combinations if at all possible.]


    This makes entry hazards remain a useful punishment option, but make strategic usage more critical. The enemy can effectively get in massive damage on one of your mons if you try to set up over 3 layers, as with strategic combos to change the typing of Rapid Spin, you can get in MASSIVE damage as revenge for entry hazards. Remember, 32+whatever unblockable base power that can be changed to hit an enemy for SE damage is not to be trifled with, and even 22+whatever can be deadly.
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