I will start using items once permanent items are available. I generally don't find the use of berries actually interesting - or worth their cost in TC
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Data State of the Game - 4/22/2011
- Thread starter Seven Deadly Sins
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Yeah, 10 TC for infinite oran berries!
Seriously, the problem with berries and herbs and other such items is you have to keep buying them over and over and over and over and over AND OVER ... you get the idea. Remove this temporariness, bump up the price, problem solved!
From what I've seen, berry planting (suggested in the RP thread) has been approved, so that might fix this problem by itself.
Agreed.
Again, Metal Burst is really the one that needs to be fixed. :0 CounterCoat is relatively simple to get around, even if a mon has both moves, but Metal Burst is almost-always paired with Taunt, which makes it a much more significant problem. Maybe do what RD says with the energy cost for CounterCoat, but otherwise don't change their mechanics.
The only problems with items are:
- Only certain Pokemon have permanent items that they can use.
- The items that any Pokemon can use cost too much at 2TC = 1 Berry. They should be 1 TC = 2 Berries. I would actually pay that.
There should be a list of moves that can't be substituted. "Counter if physical, Mirror Coat if special," anyone?
Life Orb
Costs 5 TC
Before a round starts, a Pokemon can choose to activate this item. When activated, the Pokemon puts 6 hitpoints and 5 extra energy at the start of the round, but all attacking moves gain an additional 3.5 base power for the round's duration. Pokemon with the Sheer Force ability activated will not have to pay a hitpoint penalty.
Choice Band
Costs 5 TC
Before the round starts, a Pokemon can choose to activate this mysterious headband. When activated, the Pokemon can only use a single move three times in a row, but the Attack stat of this Pokemon is treated as having an extra * added and the penalty for this Pokemon's repeated attacks is reduced to 2, then 4.
Choice Specs
Costs 5 TC
Before the round starts, a Pokemon can choose to activate these mysterious glasses. When activated, the Pokemon can only use a single move three times in a row, but the Special Attack stat of this Pokemon is treated as having an extra * added and the penalty for this Pokemon's repeated attacks is reduced to 2, then 4.
Choice Scarf
Costs 5 TC
Before the round starts, a Pokemon can choose to activate this mysterious scarf. When activated, the Pokemon can only use a single move three times in a row, but the Speed of this Pokemon is treated as being 150% of normal for this round, the Pokemon receives a +5% flat accuracy boost for the round, and the penalty for this Pokemon's repeated attacks is reduced to 2, then 4.
Leftovers
Costs 6 TC
At the end of each round, the Pokemon who holds this item nibbles on the leftovers and recovers 5% of its hitpoints, rounded up.
...
To be honest, berries suck. They're temporary (and I can purchase a new mon for 2 TC;) they don't do nearly enough.
Additionally, who's using Thick Club when I can use Cranidos?
We've already got mechanics ideas in place for how those items will work, please don't propose them here. They also won't be purchasable through TC, but through roleplay. Once they go through they'll appear in the documentation. If you want to focus on items at all, discuss this:
Rising_Dusk said:
So, I have a question. :0 Fire Blast had me pick up a Zoom Lens in the current Fog of War RP he's reffing for me and a few others.... would I get to keep an item like that afterward? Even though it's not nearly as good as stuff like LO and choice stuff, it still seems pretty cool to have... (it's like a flat 5% accuracy boost to all moves plus greater visibility or something)
Is this the type of RP I could keep such an item from? Or will they be later, and need to be properly approved and stuff?
Is this the type of RP I could keep such an item from? Or will they be later, and need to be properly approved and stuff?
I was mostly being facetious-the point was to say "we don't have very good items, why bother."
Also, Banryu's idea about move range seems pretty good. Here's a match where it unofficially came into play, and it's personally my favorite (despite Finn making a few bad plays, like using Rock Slide against Mountaineer Syclar): http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86261
Moving out of range of attacks was probably one of the reasons Syclar wasn't completely roasted by Fire punches. (Tail Glow helped, though.) I would certainly be in favor of range restrictions.
Dodge... screwed something? That is the single worst excuse for an "improvement" I have ever seen, as only +Speed Ninjask after a speed body can actually use it. Aside from that, if I want to lower an offense or defense, I play the price. Why shouldn't that also apply if I lower speed? I get a benifit from raising every other stat, why can't I get a benifit by raising speed? I'm sorry, but your logic completely says "I want something for nothing, so please don't balance things."
I think +5/-5 is too little of a boost for speed, but +10/-10 is too much; with +10/-10, Moves such as Stone Edge and Fire Blast are guaranteed to hit, while the infamous unreliable moves such as Focus Blast and Blizzard are suddenly reliable to use (90%). Moves that are fairly reliable but often miss have their accuracy boosted to nearly 100% (e.g. Will-o-Wisp, Sleep Powder); keep in mind that the user of these moves will be going first, which means that you'll often be crippled or even incapacitated before you have a chance to move.
I think Dodge needs some type of buff. A semi-average speed difference is about 50 points, which translates to a 10% drop in accuracy for your opponent's attacks; that costs 5 Energy. You can also use Agility, which costs 7 Energy, for a near guaranteed dodge on attacks. Agility costs 2 more Energy, but works about ten times better; why would you ever use dodge? Even for an unnaturally zippy Pokemon such as Weavile, the dodge command doesn't really work unless you have a speed boost. The worst part? The slower Pokemon can just completely render the dodge command useless by boosting its own speed (now that it's 75/150/225). Say a base 60 is up against Weavile, a base 125. With just one Agility, the base 60 suddenly has 150 Speed, effectively outspeeding everything in the ASB metagame bar Ninjask. And this is just a base 60. A base 65 with an agility outspeeds everything in the ASB metagame bar none. In fact, it reaches 163 speed. This is assuming no +Spe natures. With +Spe natures, a base 56 Pokemon can now outspeed Adamant Ninjask with an Agility. Even outspeeding every Pokemon in the metagame, it only gets a 32% boost in evasion against the slowest Pokemon, a Shuckle. I propose that we change the divisor of the formula from 5 to 1, which will at least make it somewhat useful. Not only will it make dodge more useful (65% increase in evasion against a base 60 with weavile at the cost of 5 energy sounds pretty good) and make it semi-comparable to Agility, it also makes the ref's life easier.
Thoughts?
I think Dodge needs some type of buff. A semi-average speed difference is about 50 points, which translates to a 10% drop in accuracy for your opponent's attacks; that costs 5 Energy. You can also use Agility, which costs 7 Energy, for a near guaranteed dodge on attacks. Agility costs 2 more Energy, but works about ten times better; why would you ever use dodge? Even for an unnaturally zippy Pokemon such as Weavile, the dodge command doesn't really work unless you have a speed boost. The worst part? The slower Pokemon can just completely render the dodge command useless by boosting its own speed (now that it's 75/150/225). Say a base 60 is up against Weavile, a base 125. With just one Agility, the base 60 suddenly has 150 Speed, effectively outspeeding everything in the ASB metagame bar Ninjask. And this is just a base 60. A base 65 with an agility outspeeds everything in the ASB metagame bar none. In fact, it reaches 163 speed. This is assuming no +Spe natures. With +Spe natures, a base 56 Pokemon can now outspeed Adamant Ninjask with an Agility. Even outspeeding every Pokemon in the metagame, it only gets a 32% boost in evasion against the slowest Pokemon, a Shuckle. I propose that we change the divisor of the formula from 5 to 1, which will at least make it somewhat useful. Not only will it make dodge more useful (65% increase in evasion against a base 60 with weavile at the cost of 5 energy sounds pretty good) and make it semi-comparable to Agility, it also makes the ref's life easier.
Thoughts?
^ I am unsure about the exact mechanics of it, but I would support buffing Dodge so that it isn't completely outclassed by something like Agility. Though granted, they're not all that different anyway, why not just make them similar so Pokemon that don't get Agility can have the benefits of its evasive uses for one turn?
Nobody replied to this. Any opinions?
I didn't see it, but it makes sense to me.
Maybe there should be some other commands that assist in energy restoration, like Rest or something helping with that.
Of course, you could also just use your Energy more efficiently. :0 I realize that that's not always an option though.
^Buffing Rest by making it restore Energy (since right now it's pretty much BS,) faster than a Chill AND a small amount of HP might be helpful.
And my Snorunt (as a Froslass) eventually, but it has level 4 Double Team and Snover-supported Snow Cloak. Meaning that it only supplements its already outstanding evasive capabilities.
Pourquoi?
I don't get how introducing another form of currency to be exchanged and stuff will somehow simplify the system and make berries not suck.
Amirite?
I don't get how introducing another form of currency to be exchanged and stuff will somehow simplify the system and make berries not suck.
Amirite?
Maybe making low-tier berries cost 25 zennies?
I.e. four low-tier berries per TC?
...Either way, we need something that does more than berries-something which notably influences the course of the match.
...Do mons automatically eat berries at the end of a round if they meet the activation conditions?
I.e. four low-tier berries per TC?
...Either way, we need something that does more than berries-something which notably influences the course of the match.
...Do mons automatically eat berries at the end of a round if they meet the activation conditions?
As a seasoned turn-based text combatant on a few roleplaying-based forums, I approve of the existence of this forum. My two cents on the OP:
-Combo moves can lead to some rather exotic and unpredictable effects due to the wide range of possibilities, to say nothing of the whims of the referee. This unpredictability is often taken advantage of in the anime to gain the upper hand, both in battles and Contests: See Buizel's "Ice Aqua Jet" vs. Wake's Floatzel. Thus, the energy cost should be the sum of the moves involved plus TWICE the number of moves in the combo to reflect this game-changing power and the fact that it requires a keen sense of timing and coordination to manage. Of course, this is merely a baseline figure, and the referee is encouraged to use his best judgment on this matter.
-Moves that attack in a straight line (Flamethrower being the classic example) are notoriously easy to dodge in ASB. Perhaps a Pokemon could use energy to negate such an attack being aimed at it equal to the energy cost of the move? (Edit: Read the posts above me on page 2, and the dodge command mechanics seem unnecessarily complicated. Powerful moves should be harder to avoid, and what I propose is a deceptively simple way to handle that fact.)
-Combo moves can lead to some rather exotic and unpredictable effects due to the wide range of possibilities, to say nothing of the whims of the referee. This unpredictability is often taken advantage of in the anime to gain the upper hand, both in battles and Contests: See Buizel's "Ice Aqua Jet" vs. Wake's Floatzel. Thus, the energy cost should be the sum of the moves involved plus TWICE the number of moves in the combo to reflect this game-changing power and the fact that it requires a keen sense of timing and coordination to manage. Of course, this is merely a baseline figure, and the referee is encouraged to use his best judgment on this matter.
-Moves that attack in a straight line (Flamethrower being the classic example) are notoriously easy to dodge in ASB. Perhaps a Pokemon could use energy to negate such an attack being aimed at it equal to the energy cost of the move? (Edit: Read the posts above me on page 2, and the dodge command mechanics seem unnecessarily complicated. Powerful moves should be harder to avoid, and what I propose is a deceptively simple way to handle that fact.)
Relatively few people like Dodge and how it turned out.
However, the above proposal interestingly causes Ice beam to be easier to avoid than the area-of-effect Blizzard outside of a hailstorm. This proposal seems slightly inconsistent.
Additionally, OHKO moves-why I don't go ahead and buy that tempting 25 base power STAB attack for my Syclar for 1 MC is a matter of accuracy.
While I see the intent, it doesn't seem very consistent with the games (which are the hard and fast point for standard moves)
So your combo proposal is for the energy cost to be...
M1+M2+4 or M1+M2+M3+6
depending on how many moves are in the combo? An interesting proposal-although it assumes all refs favor combo attacks and would reward you in turn.
I have an additional combo idea: Combo training.
Basically, Pokemon can "train" certain combinations of moves for 1 TC-I.E. the aforementioned Ice Aqua Jet-and use them as normal attacks. The advantage, of course, is consistency-the combined move is treated like a normal attack (albeit with a high energy cost), and it isn't nearly as subject to the whims of the ref as a normal combo would be.
As this is a fairly gray area, players would get in touch with a "combo lawyer-" i.e. somebody to make sure the combo move you make isn't broken.
To prevent the power of such combo attacks from being game-breaking, a Pokemon can only pre-learn a fixed number of combos. Any other combos must be done normally.
However, the above proposal interestingly causes Ice beam to be easier to avoid than the area-of-effect Blizzard outside of a hailstorm. This proposal seems slightly inconsistent.
Additionally, OHKO moves-why I don't go ahead and buy that tempting 25 base power STAB attack for my Syclar for 1 MC is a matter of accuracy.
While I see the intent, it doesn't seem very consistent with the games (which are the hard and fast point for standard moves)
So your combo proposal is for the energy cost to be...
M1+M2+4 or M1+M2+M3+6
depending on how many moves are in the combo? An interesting proposal-although it assumes all refs favor combo attacks and would reward you in turn.
I have an additional combo idea: Combo training.
Basically, Pokemon can "train" certain combinations of moves for 1 TC-I.E. the aforementioned Ice Aqua Jet-and use them as normal attacks. The advantage, of course, is consistency-the combined move is treated like a normal attack (albeit with a high energy cost), and it isn't nearly as subject to the whims of the ref as a normal combo would be.
As this is a fairly gray area, players would get in touch with a "combo lawyer-" i.e. somebody to make sure the combo move you make isn't broken.
To prevent the power of such combo attacks from being game-breaking, a Pokemon can only pre-learn a fixed number of combos. Any other combos must be done normally.
Acklow
I am always tired. Don't bother me.
Okay easiest way for me to explain this is in example form:
Let's say that an Oran berry costs 3 TC (I'm not looking at the Data thread, so I'm just going to guesstimate). In the new currency, we can have it cost, say, 6 <Currency>. In order to get that <Currency>, I would have to trade in my TC at a fixed cost. So we could say that 3 TC=9 <Currency> or 3 TC=12 <Currency>. Upon exchange I would be able to have an easier way of obtaining what used to be an expensive commodity, and at a cheaper price too.
So in my mind, one of the simplest ways of fixing the whole berry problem is creating a currency that is only half the worth of TC. Of course, we could always double the amount of berries purchased if we continue to run with TC, but we'll still continue to run into problems later on.
tl;dr: New currency=solution to hold item problem
^...Again, why would I pay 1.5 TC for one poor berry that will last me one match when I can buy a mon for 0.5 TC more?
A large price drop in the berries would be needed-as in "a small fraction of 1 trainer counter for normal berries, 1 TC at most for the absolute best berries." The ability to purchase "wild berry bushes" that allow possession of an infinite number of berries for say, 5 TC, would also come in handy.
I think the first action should be to cut the price of berries to one-quarter of their current cost. That would give me incentive to buy berries that are only going to last me one fight and can't evolve, and 1.5 TC for the absolute best berries is pricey, but not absurd (I can buy 3 good non-evolving mons/1 weak non-evolving mon for the cost of a Rowap Berry right now.)
Finally, I propose that Delibird's cost in TC be reduced to 1. The reasons behind this move should be fairly obvious to long-time CAP-goers.
A large price drop in the berries would be needed-as in "a small fraction of 1 trainer counter for normal berries, 1 TC at most for the absolute best berries." The ability to purchase "wild berry bushes" that allow possession of an infinite number of berries for say, 5 TC, would also come in handy.
I think the first action should be to cut the price of berries to one-quarter of their current cost. That would give me incentive to buy berries that are only going to last me one fight and can't evolve, and 1.5 TC for the absolute best berries is pricey, but not absurd (I can buy 3 good non-evolving mons/1 weak non-evolving mon for the cost of a Rowap Berry right now.)
Finally, I propose that Delibird's cost in TC be reduced to 1. The reasons behind this move should be fairly obvious to long-time CAP-goers.
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