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Substitute is currently far too powerful as a move. There are several factors relating to this:
- The ability to block all moves and status
- The ability to select an exact level of HP
- The incredibly high HP value a sub can create
- The relatively low energy cost
The aim of the following move change are not to shaft any single strategy.
Firstly, I'm going to remove 2 birds with 1 stone. We're going to limit the number of options a sub can have in terms of health:
Small Substitute - 10 HP
Medium Substitute - 15 HP
Large Substitute - 20 HP
By doing this, we limit the range of powers a substitute can have. The HP values are flat, and in my opion fairer. You could also set simple energy costs for these - I'd reccomend 8, 12 and 16.
This deals with the energy costs, the incredible easy to control HP and the overall power (Weakens the range from 15% - 25% down to 10HP to 20HP flat).
Now then, this next bit I fully expect to cause people to hate me, but I think that it would sort out a logical problem:
Make the substitute a seperate mon.
The sub simply acts like a distraction, which the opponent must always target. However, this gives a couple of options:
Multi Hit moves: These now become very useful by damaging the sub and the sub user
Healing: All healing is split between the sub and the original mon. Each recieves half of normal HP healing, barring rest and pain split, which work as normal.
The substitute would be a copy of the mon, except with no moves or attacking stats, or speed. This replica would have the same stats otherwise, barring the altered Max HP. Doing this resolves the logical issue that a substitute is used as a distraction, but it renders earthquakes useless versus a target which is simply hiding.
I like what dogfish is proposing except for one thing:
Healing: All healing is split between the sub and the original mon. Each recieves half of normal HP healing, barring rest and pain split, which work as normal.
I'm pretty sure that a substitute has always been simply a decoy and I don't understand why a mon using Recover would automatically give half it's restored health to its substitute. Recover has never been able to give health to another mon so why should it be able to give health to a mon's substitute if you're treating said substitute as an entirely new mon?
Being able to pass through walls is not equal to Possession. I don't see why having all ghost being able to go through walls would be so much "broken". And even if it actually was, couldn't we simply add some kind of advantage to the Ghost type besides passing through walls which could be shared by all Ghosts (regardless of whether they have a secondary type or not)?
Dragon type benifits also suck. No one objects to that. Before anyone objects about Dragon types being incredibly strong and stuff, most ghosts have an incredible supporting movepool, and I personally think hiding in a wall is very annoying as well.
I think most refs already treat the Substitute as a separate poke. I know when I ref subs, large-range moves split their damage. I think by officially making it a separate poke though makes Substitute WAY too easy to get around (literally). I'm also personally in favor of the control in HP over Substitute. It makes it a versatile option to many Pokemon's movepool in the same vein as Protect, but requires a bit more skill and creativity to try and successfully maneuver with. I just haven't had any problems with Substitute in practice.
Since subs are supposed to looks like this, the poke creates another version of itself to take the damage (altough it vanishes after one hit), and so the trainer can't say with pikachu (in the image) is the real one (kind of giving a 50/50 chance of hitting the real poke)
I also want to add that with the curent % sistem of subs you can say make me a sub x%, where that percent is just enough to ressist an attack and stop a second one
Dragon type benifits also suck. No one objects to that. Before anyone objects about Dragon types being incredibly strong and stuff, most ghosts have an incredible supporting movepool, and I personally think hiding in a wall is very annoying as well.
weak bonus>no bonuses. I simply don't understand why Ghosts can't have at least a little benefit of some kind - one which could be exploited in an arena, for example (like Dragon's one)
EDIT: An idea I thought about is giving Ghosts the same immunity to visibility reduction from Haze Poison Pokémon get. This would have the added advantage that the only dual-typed Ghost which already can pass through walls - Gengar - would not benefit from this bonus since it is already part Poison. To me it would make sense and would give Ghosts something to boast like all other types.
weak bonus>no bonuses. I simply don't understand why Ghosts can't have at least a little benefit of some kind - one which could be exploited in an arena, for example (like Dragon's one)
EDIT: An idea I thought about is giving Ghosts the same immunity to visibility reduction from Haze Poison Pokémon get. This would have the added advantage that the only dual-typed Ghost which already can pass through walls - Gengar - would not benefit from this bonus since it is already part Poison. To me it would make sense and would give Ghosts something to boast like all other types.
Ok, there are two things that really irritate mr, and I will call people out on either one (even though I am guilty of the former): Needlessly breaking the way things are to benifit one's own team (e.g. setting the new *** cutoff right below the point where one would be hurt by it), and senseless fear of HAX. As half of your team is non-pure ghost type, I realize that I can't actually convince you of anything. But swriously, Ghost types are very, very good. Most of them get Will-o-Wisp, Hypnosis, Toxic, Confuse Ray, Taunt, Curse (arguably the ghost-type advantage, and if so a good one), and Destiny Bond, and sometimes Perish Song. Hiding in Walls is the single most aggravating and cowardly thing I have ever seen in a battle, and I am completely against that spreading to things with an already ridiculous supporting (and normally insane offensive) movepool, typically paired with above-average stats, and two (sometimes three) immunities. Ghost types need no boosting, although giving them night vision could be reasonable...
Ok, there are two things that really irritate mr, and I will call people out on either one (even though I am guilty of the former): Needlessly breaking the way things are to benifit one's own team (e.g. setting the new *** cutoff right below the point where one would be hurt by it), and senseless fear of HAX. As half of your team is non-pure ghost type, I realize that I can't actually convince you of anything. But swriously, Ghost types are very, very good. Most of them get Will-o-Wisp, Hypnosis, Toxic, Confuse Ray, Taunt, Curse (arguably the ghost-type advantage, and if so a good one), and Destiny Bond, and sometimes Perish Song. Hiding in Walls is the single most aggravating and cowardly thing I have ever seen in a battle, and I am completely against that spreading to things with an already ridiculous supporting (and normally insane offensive) movepool, typically paired with above-average stats, and two (sometimes three) immunities. Ghost types need no boosting, although giving them night vision could be reasonable...
First of all, I refused of being accused of being partial. When there was to be voted for nerfing burn, I voted yes despite almost all my mons knowing Will-o-wisp. Don't try this bullshit with me, and I mean it.
Secondary of all, Ghost-types are good, yes, but are certainly not above all the other types in the ASB game. Giving them such a disadvantage is completely unfair. Psychic Pokémon, for example, are very powerful too, why they still get a bonus from their typing besides STAB (one which works for dual-types like Metagross too)?
There are a lot of Pokémon which get good support movepools, good offense, immunities etc. And I'd like to point out that, in a meta where Pokémon learn such huge movepools, having an immunity to Fighting and Normal is not as big as you're making it out.
Stop acting like Ghosts are the most broken type in ASB. It's not the weakest one, of course, but it doesn't deserve to be the only one without any kind of bonus besides type chart and STAB.
EDIT: Plus, I never said I want to spread the bonus of passing through walls to all Ghosts, don't put things in my mouth. Heck, if it were for me, I would be ok with removing it entirely (and I have a Gengar, too, so again don't try bullshit with me). I only want for Ghost a bonus applying to ALL Ghosts, like EVERY OTHER type gets.
First of all, I refused of being accused of being partial. When there was to be voted for nerfing burn, I voted yes despite almost all my mons knowing Will-o-wisp. Don't try this bullshit with me, and I mean it.
Secondary of all, Ghost-types are good, yes, but are certainly not above all the other types in the ASB game. Giving them such a disadvantage is completely unfair. Psychic Pokémon, for example, are very powerful too, why they still get a bonus from their typing besides STAB (one which works for dual-types like Metagross too)?
There are a lot of Pokémon which get good support movepools, good offense, immunities etc. And I'd like to point out that, in a meta where Pokémon learn such huge movepools, having an immunity to Fighting and Normal is not as big as you're making it out.
Stop acting like Ghosts are the most broken type in ASB. It's not the weakest one, of course, but it doesn't deserve to be the only one without any kind of bonus besides type chart and STAB.
EDIT: Plus, I never said I want to spread the bonus of passing through walls to all Ghosts, don't put things in my mouth. Heck, if it were for me, I would be ok with removing it entirely (and I have a Gengar, too, so again don't try bullshit with me). I only want for Ghost a bonus applying to ALL Ghosts, like EVERY OTHER type gets.
... I really need to stop taking out frustration on people. Sorry about the personal attack, it's been a stressful weak and I had just woke up when I read that. Anyways, I can see where you're coming from, and little things are never really that overwhelming. Pre-burn nerf (Thank God that passed), ghosts might have been broken and needed no further boosts but curse (which is a completely amazing advantage. Night vision of a sort, and possibly the ability to see through fog would be interesting. Beyond that, Ghosts don't need the seruous help that other types (Ice) need to get along. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a bad ghost type. But seriously, there's already more than enough precedent. Dragon's boost is seldom used, and Curse is probably better. But seriously, being immune to two/three types, disabling another attacking move, giving the opponent a 50% chance to hit, reducing the damage of physical attacks, and possibly putting the enemy to sleep (not to mention Suicidal options) normally counts as "good."
... I really need to stop taking out frustration on people. Sorry about the personal attack, it's been a stressful weak and I had just woke up when I read that. Anyways, I can see where you're coming from, and little things are never really that overwhelming. Pre-burn nerf (Thank God that passed), ghosts might have been broken and needed no further boosts but curse (which is a completely amazing advantage. Night vision of a sort, and possibly the ability to see through fog would be interesting. Beyond that, Ghosts don't need the seruous help that other types (Ice) need to get along. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of a bad ghost type. But seriously, there's already more than enough precedent. Dragon's boost is seldom used, and Curse is probably better. But seriously, being immune to two/three types, disabling another attacking move, giving the opponent a 50% chance to hit, reducing the damage of physical attacks, and possibly putting the enemy to sleep (not to mention Suicidal options) normally counts as "good."
Nvm^^ And I'm not advocating much more than "seeing through fog" (which also makes sense to me in many ways). Personally, I'd be open to discussing Curse too (although it's not as clear to me as burn was, it is certainly worth a closer look). I'm only asking for some kind of bonus like any other type, and "fog immunity" is more than enough to me.
P.S.: About Dragon, even if that boost (I'm not even sure how it'll play out) will be seldomly used, it's still something easy to enforce in an arena, and henceforth exploitable.
EDIT: Also, since I'm realizing I'm posting way too much, I won't reply anymore for now.
I'm not sure where I should post this so I figure here's as good a place as any.
Sometimes people have troubles in real life which can naturally cause a delay in a a game. For example, in my current battle against Zystral, he's passed the DQ time, but a little look has revealed he has a good reason to. I've had people pass the DQ time for no apparent or mentioned reason and get DQ'd, which is fine, but it seems unfair to DQ someone in this instance.
What I'm thinking is an option to "suspend a battle". Rather than DQing, Forfeiting or simply waiting, the battle can be put on hold until the troubled player is ready. You could easily by do this by just being nice and patient, but I like to fill my quota of battles. So what I'm saying is, while a battle is suspended it doesn't count towards your battle limit. Of course there'd have to be conditions in place to stop players from just constantly suspending battles to increase their limit, but this could be as simple as having to provide a good reason and having the opponent agree to it.
Thoughts?
I like this idea, the only part that I feel that problems may arise is when someone can't "suspend a battle" on a short term's notice and they lack the capability to notify their opponent. Maybe we could change it so that battles are "suspended" if they go beyond a certain time limit, and then are DQed once they go further than the suspended amount of time?
Example: I have a RL issue. I can't get online for some time. Battle is suspended after, say 3 days of my inactivity. Then after, say three weeks or so, the battle expires and I am DQed if I don't notify my opponent/referee of the situation.
I feel like this may be a better solution, imo. (basically, it's your idea, but elaborated much further)
That could probably be solved with by waiting until one of the other three matches are over. So in essence, it is hit or miss for the person who causes the suspension of the match.
Yeah of course you'd have to wait until both players have a battle space opened up to pick up the suspended battle.
I see what your getting at Acklow, you may have a good point there. This is especially good for if, say for example, my internet goes down or I have a blackout (like last night).
I'm not sure where I should post this so I figure here's as good a place as any.
Sometimes people have troubles in real life which can naturally cause a delay in a a game. For example, in my current battle against Zystral, he's passed the DQ time, but a little look has revealed he has a good reason to. I've had people pass the DQ time for no apparent or mentioned reason and get DQ'd, which is fine, but it seems unfair to DQ someone in this instance.
What I'm thinking is an option to "suspend a battle". Rather than DQing, Forfeiting or simply waiting, the battle can be put on hold until the troubled player is ready. You could easily by do this by just being nice and patient, but I like to fill my quota of battles. So what I'm saying is, while a battle is suspended it doesn't count towards your battle limit. Of course there'd have to be conditions in place to stop players from just constantly suspending battles to increase their limit, but this could be as simple as having to provide a good reason and having the opponent agree to it.
Thoughts?
That could probably be solved with by waiting until one of the other three matches are over. So in essence, it is hit or miss for the person who causes the suspension of the match.
I think it should be allowed, but there shouldn't be any punishment for the person who was not the reason for the suspension. I don't think it will be enough of an issue to matter. Suspensions require notice and otherwise wold be a DQ.
Also, some new codifications/change suggestions:
Confusion:
When a Pokemon hits itself in Confusion, its attack fails and it expends 3% energy on the 4 Base Power, typeless self-damaging attack.
KO Substitutions for Multiple Battles:
This is just codifying that each Pokemon in a multiple battle gets an Attack Substitution and a KO Substitution. KO Substitutions are redirected attacks/commands for a Pokemon based on an opponent's KO.
+1/+1 Boosts and +1 or -1 with Damage:
Whenever a move with multiple +1 boosts are used for a state of +0/+0, those boosts/drops last for 4 actions before the boosts start deteriorating instead of 2. This makes the moves more viable (or less in the case of Close Combat/Superpower) on the first and third actions.
This would change our stat boosts summary examples to:
Stat Boosters:
Stat boosters/drops will work exactly as they do in-game, boosting as many stages as is stated in the attack. +2 and +3 Stat boosts always last for at least two actions after use, and +1/+1 boosts always last for four actions from +0, so strategic placement of stat boosters is a skill you can utilize in battle. During the third action of a round (after the damage is calculated and applied to the opponent), whatever boost/drop a Pokemon has will be moved towards a zero stage boost, and any boosts/drops they would get from their 3rd action are moved forward to apply to the next round. Single stage boosters/drops will be balanced by locking the boost rate in for the round, e.g. if you Howl once, you will not lose the +1 boost at the end of the round, it will carry over to the next round.
Three Examples:
Zangoose with Swords Dance and Claw Sharpen
Meditite with Bulk Up, Meditate, and Ankle Sweep.
Tepig with Curse, Nitro Charge, and Superpower.
Zangoose:
Slash ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance. Zangoose will have no boosts at the time of Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +4 Attack. At the start of the third round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack. [This happens because the round ends before two actions after the initial Swords Dance pass, so the boost is kept in its entirety for the next round.]
Claw Sharpen ~ Fury Swipes ~ Swords Dance. At the time of Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have +1 Attack/Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +3 Attack and +1 Accuracy. [What happens is that Claw Sharpen's +1/+1 boost applies at the time the Swords Dance on the second action after Claw Sharpen is used.The reason you might use this is because Fury Swipes gets another guaranteed hit for each stage boost in accuracy, potentially allowing Zangoose to pile up significant damage.]
Swords Dance ~ Slash ~ Claw Sharpen. At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack/+1 Accuracy. [What happens is that Swords Dance's +2 boost applies at the time Claw Sharpen is used, then the stat is reset down one stage. Claw Sharpen's boost is applied at the beginning of the next round, resulting in +2 Attack/+1 Accuracy.] At the start of the third round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack and Accuracy, because four actions had not elapsed since Zangoose's use of Claw Sharpen's Accuracy boost.
Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance ~ Swords Dance. Zangoose will have a +5 Attack boost at the start of the next round. (Note: if you use Claw Sharpen as your first action, you will retain the Attack and Accuracy, since they were used from +0/+0) Claw Sharpening on your second or third action leaves Zangoose with +5 Atk / +1 Accuracy rather than +4 Attack / + 1 Accuracy for Round 2.)
Swords Dance ~ Claw Sharpen ~ Fury Swipes. At the time of Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have +3 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the start of Round 3, Zangoose will have +1 Attack.
Taunt ~ Slash ~ Swords Dance. Zangoose will have no stat boosts at the time of Slash. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the start of Round 3, Zangoose will have +1 Attack;
Taunt ~ Swords Dance ~ Slash. At the time of Slash, Zangoose will have +2 Attack. At the the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack. At the start of round 3, Zangoose will have no stat boosts.
Taunt ~ Claw Sharpen ~ Fury Swipes: At the time of Fury Swipes, Zangoose will have +1 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the start of the next round, Zangoose will have +1 Attack and +1 Accuracy. At the start of Round 3, Zangoose will have no boosts.
Meditite:
Bulk Up ~ Low Sweep ~ Low Sweep. At the time of both Low Sweeps, Meditite will have +1 Atk/Def. At the start of the next round, Meditite will not have +1 Atk/Def. The opponent will start the next round with -2 Speed. The opponent will start Round 3 with -1 Speed.
Bulk Up ~ Meditate ~ Low Sweep. At the time of Low Sweep, Meditite will have +2 Attack and +1 Defense. At the start of the next round, Meditite will have +2 Attack/+1 Def, and the opponent will have -1 Speed. At the start of round 3, Meditite will have +1 Attack and the opponent will have no boosts. (Note: If Meditite uses Meditate in Round 2, it will lock Meditite's Attack Boost at 3.)
Meditate ~ Bulk Up ~ Low Sweep. At the time of Low Sweep, Meditite will have +2 Attack and +1 Defense. At the start of the next round, Meditite will have +2 Attack/+1 Defense and the opponent will have -1 Speed. At the start of round 3, Meditite will have +1 Attack and the opponent will have -1 Speed, since 4 actions have not elapsed after Low Sweep was used while the opponent was at +0. (Note: If Meditite uses Meditate in Round 2, it will lock Meditite's Attack Boost at 3.)
Low Sweep ~ Bulk Up ~ Low Sweep. The first Low Sweep will have no attack boosts. At the time of the second Ankle Sweep Meditite will have +1 Attack/Defense. At the start of the next round, Meditite will have +1 Attack/Defense and the opponent will have -2 Speed. The opponent will start round 3 with -1 Speed. (Note: If Meditite uses Meditate in Round 2, it will lock Meditite's Attack Boost at 2)
Tepig:
Superpower ~ Curse ~ Nitro Charge. Superpower is unboosted. At the time of Nitro Charge Tepig has -1 Speed. At the start of the next round Tepig will have no boosts/drops.
Superpower ~ Nitro Charge ~ Curse. Superpower is unboosted. At the time of Nitro Charge, Tepig has -1 Attack/Defense. At the start of the next round, Tepig will have +1 Attack/Defense.
Nitro Charge ~ Superpower ~ Curse. Nitro Charge and Superpower are unboosted. At the start of the next round Tepig will have no boosts.
Nitro Charge ~ Curse ~ Superpower. Nitro Charge is unboosted. At the time of Superpower, Tepig has +1 Attack/Defense. At the start of the next round, Tepig will have no stat boosts/drops.
Curse ~ Nitro Charge ~ Superpower. At the time of Nitro Charge, Tepig has +1 Attack/Defense and -1 Speed. At the time of Superpower, Tepig has +1 Attack/Defense. At the start of the next round, Tepig will have no boosts or drops.
Curse ~ Superpower ~ Nitro Charge: At the time of Superpower, Tepig has +1 Attack/Defense and -1 Speed. At the time of Nitro Charge, Tepig has -1 Speed. At the start of the next round, Tepig will have no stat boosts or drops.
Summary:
+1 Stat Boosters/Drops received from non-damaging moves (Meditate, Leer) have that stat maintained at the end of each round independent of which action they are used on.
+2 and +3 Stat Boosters/Drops (Swords Dance, Tail Glow) received on the first action drop/restore towards 0 at the end of the third action of that round.
+1/+1 and +1 Boosters/Drops with Damage (Bulk Up, Charge, Close Combat, Low Sweep) received on the first action from +0 last through the round used and the round afterward.
All Stat Boosters/Drops received on the second action of the current round drop/restore towards 0 at the end of the third action of the next round.
+2 and +3 Stat Boosters/Drops received on the third action are applied at the beginning of the next round and drop/restore towards 0 at the end of the third action of the next round.
+1/+1 and +1 Boosters with Damage received on the third action from +0 are applied at the beginning of the next round and drop/restore towards 0 at the end of the third action of the third round.
Whenever a move with multiple +1 boosts are used for a state of +0/+0, those boosts/drops last for 4 actions before the boosts start deteriorating instead of 2. This makes the moves more viable (or less in the case of Close Combat/Superpower) on the first and third actions.
Seriously though, yeah, that's good. Moves with multiple +1 boosts were seriously underwhelming (read: useless) before, this should help quite a bit. I no longer (entirely) have a reason to regret picking Dragon Dance as an egg move for my Charmander, haha~
I take full credit for all of Deck's wonderful ideas. No, really.
That said, I have another suggestion that would need to be voted on by the PRC to get moved in because it affects stuff for some trainers retroactively.
Reduce the TC cost of all 5 TC Pokemon to 4 TC
I propose this for a few reasons. First of all, when buying one of the 5 TC unevolving Pokemon after your starter Pokemon, it costs 10 TC. 10 TC is a metric crapton. Consider that for a fresh basic Pokemon, they cost maybe 2-3 TC to buy and 6 EC to evolve if a one-stager. You can, however, put KO counters toward the EC, which speeds up the process big-time. You can't do that with the TC cost of the big 10 TC unevolving Pokemon. The other problem is that once you get the 10 TC big Pokemon, it doesn't pay for itself in EC or something, it actually earns less than other Pokemon per battle because it can't pick up EC. So now, not only does it cost an arm and a leg to buy, but it doesn't even fuel itself as well as it could if it were an evolving Pokemon. Reducing the cost to trainers purchasing these Pokemon would be a big help, and the cost change would apply retroactively to anyone who has already purchased one. They'd literally just link to their ASB profile in the prize claims thread and they'd claim 2 TC back from the purchase if it wasn't a starter Pokemon, and 1 TC back if it was.
I think ultimately, this change makes building of a team of unevolving Pokemon more reasonable in the case of the 10 TC Pokemon, and doesn't unnecessarily hinder users who really want to build their team that way instead of going the evolution route.
I'd like to propose a nerf to Rain and Sun. Currently they are the last thing that gives a legitimate 50% boost, and like Burn, this is over the top in ASB. As it stands, both Water and Fire have reliable 10 and 12 BP moves, and currently, that means a +5 and +6 boost to those moves respectively, which is just over the top. I'd say that to bring it in line with other boosting / reducing effects, it should be reduced to a +2 or +3 static boost.
I agree with both of those. For one thing, 5 TC was a metric crapton even before the double. I was damn annoyed when I couldn't start off with my Lapras, and 4 TC would mean that any Pokemon is possible. Very good idea.
As for SDS, weather is OP, and this from a Water-Type trainer. Maybe add 3 or something to all attacks.
Yeah, I agree with the 5 TC > 4. I actually planned to START with Kecleon, you know, but I essentially couldn't pick him without also being forced to use Magikarp or one of the caterpillars as well. :0 Which I've always kind of resented. This way makes a lot more sense.
