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Data State of the Game - 5/11/2011 (UPDATE ON 5/16/2011)

Discussion in 'ASB' started by DarkSlay, May 11, 2011.

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  1. DarkSlay

    DarkSlay This Wouldn't Have Happened In Romney's Smogon
    is a CAP Contributor

    Joined:
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    Hello fellow ASB members! DarkSlay here, providing you with another exciting State of the Game! We've come a long way since February, and we have a lot of new members! First, let's take a quick gander at our growth:

    AS OF 5 / 11 / 2011

    TOTAL NUMBER OF PLAYERS: 130

    TOTAL NUMBER OF FORUM THREADS/POSTS: 412/13128

    A special shout out to Flora, who has generously donated her time to updating the Registration Thread with all the current ASB players. If you see her on iRC or on Smogon, make sure to send her your thanks!

    To give you a small idea of how much we've grown, we originally had 45 members and 1428 posts on February 20th. So congrats to all of the awesome ASB players who have either stuck through with the program since the beginning or have just signed up for the fun!

    We also have elected a new committee, so please welcome the following people to the ASB Standing Committee:

    Tortferngatr
    Venser
    smashlloyd20
    GoldenKnight
    Rising_Dusk
    Athenodoros
    Acklow


    So, your committee as of 5 / 11 / 2011 will be:

    DarkSlay
    SevenDeadlySins
    Flora
    Kaxtar
    Tortferngatr
    Venser
    smashlloyd20
    GoldenKnight
    Rising_Dusk
    Athenodoros
    Acklow

    Before we get down to business, let's take some time to recap the changes that were just put into place. There were a lot of them, both automatically implemented and voted on, so take a close look at them. They have been put under Hide tags for convenience:

    Confusion Mechanics (open)
    Confusion Mechanics Revisted

    Codifies the effect of a Pokemon hitting itself in confusion as the attack failing and expending 3 energy on the 4 Base Power, typeless self-damaging attack. The Energy Cost of the originally called move is ignored.

    Burn Mechanics (open)
    Burn Mechanics Revisited

    Burn will now reduce the Base Attack Power of an affected move by 2 or 3 depending on Burn severity instead of 2 or 3 final damage.

    Rarity Counter Changes (open)
    Lowered Rarity counters:

    Because of changes in the stat system the following Pokemon would have their TC cost lowered:

    Spinda, Plusle, Minun: 3 -> 2

    Delibird, Misdreavus, Pachirisu: 4 -> 3

    Because of changes in the stat system the following Pokemon would have their TC cost increased:

    Cranidos 2 -> 3

    Weather Changes (open)
    Weather Mechanics

    Sunny Day and Rain Dance will no longer boost fire and water moves by 1.5x. They will now add +3/-3 Base Attack Power to their respective buffed and debuffed attacking types.

    Stat Boost Changes (open)
    Stat Boost Changes

    +1/+1 Boosts and +1 or -1 with Damage:

    Whenever a move with multiple +1 boosts are used for a state of +0/+0, those boosts/drops last for 4 actions before the boosts start deteriorating instead of 2. This makes the moves more viable (or less in the case of Close Combat/Superpower) on the first and third actions.

    The summary on stat boosters will be changed to reflect this. This change buffs +1/+1 Stat Boosters and +1 Boosters with damage or other effects.

    Ref (open)
    Compensation

    Ref Tokens will be increased by 1 for each stated category of battle. Street Brawls and other unlisted multiple battle formats will still follow the 1 Token per Pokemon per Side rule.

    Move Counters will be increased to 2 per Pokemon release in Battle. So when a Pokemon is released, it will receive 1 EC, 2 MC, and 1 DC.

    The Compensation increases shall take effect for all battles starting on May 1st or after.

    The maximum number of tokens to be given for reffing in any format is 15. If you wish to ref a match with more than 15 Pokemon involved, feel free. This limit may be waived for official tournaments (Like a Grand Melee), but not for regular matches.

    Switching Rules Codification (open)
    Codified Switching Rules

    Voluntary switches occur only during a switching phase.

    A Switching phase may only be initiated by the trainer moving first that round. Instead of issuing commands, the trainer may instead initiate a switch and offer their opponent a chance to switch their Pokemon. If the opposing trainer accepts and switches their Pokemon, that trainer forfeits the advantage of moving second that round.

    A Switching phase has only two possible outcomes:

    1. Player A Switch > Player B Declines Switch > Player A Orders > Player B Orders.

    2. Player A Switch > Player B Counterswitch and Orders > Player A Orders.

    Tag Team Battles operate the same with both team members on the same team switching their Pokemon first. The team which performs the most switches in the switch phase moves first. (e.g. if both trainers on a two person tag team switch, but only one of their opponents does, their opponents still move second)

    Melee battles go through each trainer next in the order. Attack Order is then determined in the reverse order of trainers who switched. (eg. Trainer A initiates switch phase. Trainer B makes a switch, Trainer C declines to switch, then Trainer D makes a switch. The attack order would now be D > B > A > C. Because D was able to see the decisions of all other players, D is punished the most for deciding to switch after B switched and C declined.

    Any Battle large enough to require orders via PM will automatically be set to Switch=KO

    Long Form Damae Calculator Clarification (open)
    Long Form Damage Calculator Clarification

    As noted, the Long Form Damage Calculator had a notation error present in it. However every iteration of the damage calculator, starting with the original one, had assumed only five ranks and treated ranks above 5 as a kind of separate bonus for extreme stats. It was my original intent that there only be five official ranks and so it shall remain that way. This becomes especially important with the implementation of some items that base their effect on the ranking system.

    As such, this is how the Long Form will appear after considering the changes to ranks:

    ((Base Attack Power + STAB + Critical Hit + [Rank Difference 1-5] *1.5 + [Rank Difference 0 or >5] * 1 + Ability Effects + Field Effects - Reflect/Light Screen - Burn Degree) * Type Effectiveness) + (Stage Boost Difference *1.5).

    Legend:

    Base Attack Power: The Base Attack Power of an Attack. Most attacks in ASB have Base Attack Powers equal to their game values divided by 10 and rounded up. However a floor has been implemented on most attacks, resulting in no attack having less than 4 Base Attack Power. Check the Attack List for data on specific attacks, as they can have other effects on damage.

    STAB: Same Type Attack Bonus. It provides +3 Damage and -1 Energy Cost to moves a Pokemon uses that match its type.

    Critical Hit: A chance all attacks have of doing additional damage. When a critical hit lands, Base Attack Power is increased by 3.

    Rank Difference 1-5: Differences in Rank between 1 and 5.

    As these comprise the most Pokemon they have the strongest effect, worth 1.5 damage each.

    Rank Difference 0 or >5: Differences in Rank resulting in Rank 0 or Ranks greater than 5. In the case of Rank 0 Defense, they take 1 more damage from relevant attacks, and Rank 0 Attacks do 1 less damage with all relevant attacks. In the case of Defenses Rank 6 and Above, they take one less damage from all relevant attacks for each rank above 5. Attacks Ranks 6 and Above add one damage to all relevant attacks for each rank above 5.

    Ability Effects: Guts, Hustle, Sturdy, and the like, applied from both Pokemon.

    Field Effects: Primarily Rain, Sun, and the Sandstorm boost to rock type special defense.

    Reflect/Light Screen: These attacks reduce the Base Attack Power of incoming attacks by a flat 5 damage.

    Burn Degree: This is the degree of Burn, and can reduce Base Attack Power by 2 or 3 depending on severity.

    Type Effectiveness: Effectiveness based on type, with the multiplies 2.25x, 1.5x, 1x, 0.67x, and 0.44x respectively for 4x weak, 2x weak, neutral, 2x resist, and 4x resist.

    Stage Boost Difference: The differences in Stage Boosts brought on by attacks like Swords Dance and Bulk Up.

    Street Brawl and Multiple Battle Regulation Codification (open)
    Street Brawls and Multiple Battle Regulations

    Street Brawls as they currently exist will be banned.

    As such the following regulations will be put in place:

    • All battle formats with more than 3 Pokemon at once per player will be conducted with orders via private messaging to the referee.
    • This will also apply in Melee battles with more than 4 players, and any Melee format outside of Singles.
    • In Tag Team Matches, players on the same team may coordinate their attacks through PM.
    • All battles must be conducted with the same number of Pokemon per side. No exceptions. Battles are thus functionally capped at the number of Pokemon of the player with the fewest.

    Speed Modifying Natures (open)
    Speed Modifying Natures

    This has changed positive speed natures to increasing accuracy equal to (New Base Speed^2/Divisor) [Capped at 30] and negative speed natures to decreasing evasion by a flat 10, which is applied to an opponent's accuracy (e.g. 90 becomes 100).

    The Divisors will be applied to keep the benefit for generally slower, lower stage Pokemon. The Divisors are as follows:

    Fully Evolved: 1000
    Second of Three: 700
    First of Two: 500
    First of Three: 350

    This link provides some practical examples.

    Critical Hits for Multi-hit moves (open)
    Critical Hits for multi-hit moves.

    This has changed the mechanics of multi-hit moves to provide +2 damage for each critical hit on a two-hit attacks and Triple Kick and +1 damage for each critical hit on a two-five hit attacks.

    STAB Summary changes (open)
    STAB Summary Changes

    This has removed the additional energy cost reductions for non-STAB moves and replace the summaries with more terrain-oriented effects.

    The exact effects are listed below:

    New terminology:

    Not Losing Focus: In addition to increase the Base Attack Power of attacks by 3 and Reducing Energy cost by one, certain STABs may allow certain moves to keep their focus in all conditions, except when struck by a multi-hit attack (which always disrupt these moves). Whenever using one of the attacks below, moves of their STAB will not break any required focus unless it would directly alter their continuance of the attack.

    There are two broad categories:

    Partial Trapping Moves: Pokemon will have a much easier time using commands that don't use the appendages sourced in these attacks or else will be able to maintain their mental focus while using other attacks. This effect applies to Bind, Fire Spin, Clamp, Magma Storm, Sand Tomb, Whirlpool, and Wrap.

    Uncontrollable Attacks: Pokemon will not be subject to the disruption of Petal Dance, Outrage, and Thrash when hit by moves with greater than 12 Base Attack Power.

    Bug:

    Summary: Bug STAB; More mobility in dense brush or forest conditions. Gain an extra guaranteed attack on multi-hit moves.

    Dark:

    Summary: Dark STAB; Immunity to all telepathic and telekinetic attacks, better performance in all darkened and especially twilight conditions. Can use any Dark-type attack regardless of Attraction.

    Dragon:

    Summary: Dragon STAB; More in touch with legendary or special auras in arenas. Able to use Hyper Beam and Giga Impact without losing focus.

    Electric:

    Summary: Electric STAB; 50% reduction in paralysis chance from other electrical attacks, perfect accuracy and 30% chance of Protect breaking Thunder during Rain. Superior senses in power plant environments.

    Fighting:

    Summary: Fighting STAB; ignore weight restrictions of throwing/grappling moves. Superior reaction time in close quarters.

    Fire:

    Summary: Fire STAB; immune to burn, 50% reduction in freeze chance, emit a low glow in dark places, takes additional damage if active open flames are exposed to a water attack. Superior senses in volcanic or brushfire areas.

    Flying:

    Summary: Flying STAB; immunity to Ground attacks outside extremely odd circumstances even for ground-based flying Pokemon. Enhanced aerial mobility. Superior senses in open air arenas.

    Ghost:

    Summary: Ghost STAB; brief intangibility that nullifies Normal and Fighting-type attacks. Can move through walls for a brief period of time but must remain in motion. Superior senses in low light and inside dark buildings. Have no vision reduction in hazes.

    Grass:

    Summary: Grass STAB; Immunity to Leech Seed and Worry Seed. 50% reduction in status effect chance of oncoming "powder" attacks. More mobile in areas with strong natural light sources. Superior senses in tall grass and forest areas. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus.

    Ground:

    Summary: Ground STAB; Immune to all electrical attacks, can Dig through almost any substance, Evasive Digging reduced from 3 per action Energy Cost to 2 per action, superior senses in darkened cave surroundings.

    Ice:

    Summary: Ice STAB; immune to freezing and Sheer Cold, no vision loss or damage in Hail or snowstorm conditions, perfectly accurate and 30% Protect breaking Blizzard in Hail. Superior senses and mobility in frozen caves and other frigid arenas.

    Normal:

    Summary: Normal STAB; adapt comfortably to any surrounding after 3 actions. Able to use Outrage without losing focus.

    Poison:

    Summary: Poison STAB; immunity to Poison/Toxic, see and breath through smog/smokescreens/haze uninhibited. Able to use Wrap and Bind without losing focus. Superior senses in urban settings.

    Psychic:

    Summary: Psychic STAB; less susceptible to blinding, more susceptible to sound-based assaults as far as locking on with Psychic attacks, can lift and throw opponents with Psychic attacks regardless of weight difference. Psychic-type attacks are not godlike and cannot be used as a catchall for Disabling, Binding, and redirecting opposing attacks.

    Rock:

    Summary: Rock STAB; Take 2 less damage from all special attacks during Sandstorm. Able to use Sand Tomb without losing focus.

    Steel:

    Summary: Steel STAB; Immune to Sandstorm, highly insusceptible to toxic attacks, but can be corroded specifically by Acid and Acid Bomb, can be magnetized. Superior senses in high-metal environments like construction sites or factories.

    Water:

    Summary: Water STAB; Can breathe and have excellent mobility when underwater, are less capable on land unless they are entirely amphibious.

    Substitution Rules (open)
    Substitution Rules

    This has implemented the following Substitution rules:

    Attack Substitution:

    For each of their Pokemon, a Player acting first may create a substitution based on one specific Attack or Command the opponent can issue and substitute their called actions. This conditional can only be triggered by one of the opponent's actions, however it may apply to multiple consecutive actions for the trainer's Pokemon in that round.

    Chance Substitution:

    For each of their Pokemon, either player may create a substitution based on the success or failure of a previously ordered Attack or Attack effect. This conditional can only be triggered by the success or failure of a previous action, and as such cannot be applied to the first action of a round. A Player acting first can make either an Attack Substitution or a Chance Substitution, but not both.

    KO Substitution:

    For each of their Pokemon, either player in a multiple battle (doubles or more) may order an alternative set of actions based on a specific opponent fainting on a specific action. A KO Substitution can be ordered in addition to an Attack Substitution or a Chance Substitution.

    Combination Attacks Rules (open)
    Combination Attacks

    This has implemented the following Combination rules:

    • 1. Combination attacks are largely at the discretion of the referee of that match as to the result of the move. There can definitely be an "intended effect", but combo moves are not guaranteed to work if the referee doesn't think the combo would or should work.
    • 2. Combination attacks have an energy cost equal to (Attack A's Energy Cost + Attack B's Energy Cost) * 1.2
    • 3. Combination attacks generally have the damage of both of their combined attacks, provided those attacks flow smoothly together using the same appendage (or full body assault as the case may be). Damage may be reduced slightly based on the complexity of the combo, such as comboing a multi-hit move with a stronger, more focused attack where possible.
    • 4. Some combinations may change the typing of an attack, at which point STAB is applied if relevant. The ending type of dissimilar attacks is heavily influenced by player preference, however they must explain the mechanics of the change as part of their orders, such as adding the elemental attribute of an attack before they strike or directing the energy from a full body assault into a single point or points of impact if transitioning to a fighting attack for example.
    • 5. Combination attacks combine two attacks into the original action's slot, but due to their complexity give that combination a lower priority bracket than regular attacks. The turn after a combination leaves the Pokemon entirely vulnerable. Because of this combination attacks can only be issued on the first or second action of a round.

    Changing TC Rarity Costs (open)
    Changing the TC Rarity Cost of certain Pokemon

    This has lowered the TC Cost of every 5 TC Pokemon to 4 and change the formula for a single-stage Pokemon selected outside a starter to TC Cost + 3. This reduces the maximum TC Cost for a Pokemon from 10 to 7.


    Okay, with that out of the way, let's get on with this SotG's open questions, brought to you by...well, yours truly!

    1. Since the last SotG, the RP threads have been created and RP'ing for ASB members has started. What do you think about how the RP's have managed so far?

    Things such as the Expert Belt Dojo, Acklow's Berry Pies, The Battle Subway, Pokemon Raids, and the Pokethlon have become available to the public. While it's still in the early stages and the RP's are still trying to tweak their experiences to perfection, how have RP's affected ASB life so far? Have they been enjoyable? Should ASB continue to create RP's as time goes on in this manner?

    2. Some moves have been brought to the forefront of discussion for being overpowered due to ASB "standard" rules. What should be done about these moves, if anything?

    To give you a few examples, let's look at Acrobatics. Acrobatics is normally a 6 BP move, but with the fact that "No Items" has been the popular playing styles, players are having instant access to a move that is 11 BP, more powerful than Flamethrower and 1 BP less than inaccurate Thunders and Hydro Pumps for the same energy cost as the 6 BP move. Even moreso is VenoShock, which normally is 7 BP. However, it becomes 14 BP after Toxic poisoning, which is similar to Draco Meteor without the Special Attack drops AND adding in Toxic damage as the match progresses. There are other moves that have been ill-defined by ASB, such as Super Fang, which also need addressing. Which moves should be addressed, and what should be done about them? We can either leave them as is, increase energy costs, or change the moves entirely. We are also open to any other ideas as well.

    UPDATE:
    <Deck_Knight> Aside from the energy reduction from STAB, Super Fang is a fixed damage attack

    So there you have it on Super Fang, folks.

    3. Should Pokemon who have stats higher than Stage 5 retain their "modified" bonuses of 1 damage instead of 1.5, or should it be changed to 1.5 per stat increase?

    As it stands, a Rank 6 Pokemon attacking a Rank 3 Pokemon scores a 4 damage differential, not a 4.5 like the difference between a Rank 5 and Rank 2 Pokemon. This question was brought up during the implementation of the Long Form Calculator, so this is merely just bringing this issue to discussion. Should Pokemon with a stat that is higher than Rank 5 receive a full stat difference (1.5) for that added stat, or should it stay as the reduced number (1)?

    4. Should multi-target moves in formats that are greater than Triples (which have in-game guidelines) have rules implemented as to how many Pokemon should be hit or be affected?

    This was originally a problem in old Street Brawl battles, but has kind of stretched out to Quadruples and greater matches. Should moves like Rock Slide and Surf be defined as to how many targets they should hit, and in conjunction, should moves like Reflect, Light Screen, and Safeguard be defined as to how many teammates they affect? It's been brought to my attention that these moves have been translated in "hitting or affecting all Pokemon", which is seen as overpowered and somewhat illegitimate.

    5. It seems that refereeing as of late has become a bit sloppy (not listing specific examples, but there's a consensus that this is happening). What should be done to remedy this problem? Should we implement a stricter "Referee Assistant to Referee" type of system?

    While ASB appreciates the work that its referees have done, it's come to my attention that some referees have been ignoring standard game mechanics that should be known by all referees, including secondary effects of moves and type-arena advantages. This leads us to believe that some sort of referee training should be implemented into ASB, in order to better inform up and coming ASB referees until they are ready to take on refereeing.

    Also, referees should be more carefully watched and called out (nicely) for mistakes. In conjunction, they should also be congratulated for good reffings. ASB is a friendly game first, but in order to have a tightly structured game, we need to have informed referees.

    On a similar note, "speed refereeing" should be brought to light. Some matches lately have been skimping out on detail simply to get done matches in a couple of hours. This hurts the purpose of ASB and the purpose of referees, and should not be tolerated. There should be a close lookout for these matches as well.

    6. On a lighter note, in order to promote battle watching for both battlers and referees, we might be instating a "Battle of the Week" type of system where ASB players vote for a certain match-up and can view it. They will be called "Highlight Matches". The match will be pinned for all to see, and the battle will have top-notch talent and referees to display ASB's battling at its finest. Is this a good idea?

    Truthfully, this is my own idea, but I've gotten a bit of support for it, so I wanted to bring it up here. I think it's fun to watch battles, but I also think that it's an overlooked activity on the ASB forum. Having a highlight match will promote enthusiasm while also giving inexperienced trainers an idea of how to better their game AND inexperienced referees an idea of how to properly referee matches. What are your thoughts on this?

    7. Regarding combos, if one part of a combo is prevented (say someone Taunts a combo of Mud Sport + Crush Claw), should the combo be converted to an actual attack automatically for turns 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3 alternatively), or should the combo simply be stopped and the second action be used for turn 2 (or 3 alternatively)?

    It's a small detail, but a detail that definitely is important enough to address with the increasing popularity of combos. What should be done in these circumstances? Should a combo be considered one whole unique attack that can be prevented?

    ---

    UPDATED QUESTIONS (As of 5/16/2011)

    Should Pokemon be allowed to target themselves? (IE: Should a Pokemon be able to use Toxic on itself?)

    This has been a pretty big question for a while, and it really hasn't been discussed a whole lot. ASB has been known for creative use of in-game moves, with self-targeting being an example. However, self-targeting moves allow the user to gain pretty large advantages that are normally unobtainable without the help of an opponent. The best example of this would be Voodoom. Voodoom has Volt Absorb, Lightningrod, and Motor Drive (DW). With the current "undeclared" rules about self-targeting, it could theoretically hit itself, giving it a semi-permanent +1 boost to Special Attack and Speed while also healing damage with Thundershock and/or Thunder Wave. This might cause some problems with Pokemon like Voodoom (including Pokemon with Guts and Poison Heal). What should be done about this?

    Feel free to discuss some other topics as well, but we're mainly interested in opinions on these seven subjects first. Happy battling ASB'ers!

    - DarkSlay

    ps iiMKUltra is one heck of a beast.
  2. Gerard

    Gerard

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2011
    Messages:
    4,377
    On number 2) Why don't you incress the energy cost when the power increase (just like you already do with technician/skill link multi-hit moves) so if the pokes is poison then you pay extra enegy, if not, normal cost (or make that you actually have to lose an item to use acrobatics, would make people think twice about it), that already happens with facade so it wouldn't be so hard (in a side note why don't you do this with weather ball and make it a 7 energy move when in weather)

    And on 4) you could divide the power or create a formula or just reduce the power of the move acording to how many foes it hits (considering is 75% for two, 66% for three, so posibly a 50% for four and so on (maybe making the max damage 200%/number of pokes))
  3. Fire Blast

    Fire Blast

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    2,093
    1. There has not been much time for the RPs to affect ASB very much. Imo the most significant one has been DarkSlay's Dojo. However, it has some gray issues, especially how objectively it deals with combos. Every ref is different, and combos don't have a direct Yes/No answer. The Subway, although jsut startin, will definitely impact ASB. R_D's main goal was to help items find a home in ASB. However, i still feel that item's are not exactly worth it. it takes a very long time for players to get to the top items. Especially considering they do not have access to the pokemon while they are taking the challenge. Making these items a bit more accessible would help get items into ASB. In a few days i will be opening the Safari Zone. I do not feel that it will directly impact ASB, but will more act as a side/mini-game. I expect to see more RPs like that, such as the Pokelathon and Raids. I also think that it is time that this role that I originally suggested be implemented. A person who is in charge of RPs will help significantly due to the amount of new RPs I expect will be coming in.

    2. This is a problem that has been brought up. This thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104087 died, but DK did mention re-auditing and organizing. i think that by slowly going through the Audit thread and finding all the small problems we should eventually be good.

    3. i think that higher levels should not be treated differently, like they do right now. There is no real reason to do so, and many pokemon do not reach that high.

    4. Well we should think of it logically. In-game, multi-target moves are weakened when multiple pokemon are hit. Weaken the attack based on the situation.

    5. Yes, I was thinking about this recently. I think that a group of players/refs (appointed by Flora) should be like the main refs. Their job is to help refs improve their reffing and make it more interesting also. They can just randomly look at battles, and contact the refs with suggestions. New refs should be told to contact a main ref so that the main ref can look out for them, and help them.

    6. This was an idea I was thinking about too. On IRC, i talked to you, but I'll repost it again. This is basically a more specific idea. During two SOtGs, there will be a thread for nominating good battles. These battles should be battles where the players are very creative and skilled, using combos, commands, and other things to their optimum value. The refs are accurate, interesting and flavorful. During the 2 weeks, players continue to nominate. Two days before the SOtG, someone puts up a thread for the players to vote. Anyone may vote for any nomination unless it is clear the nomination is not worthy. Once two days have passed, the SOtG is posted, featuring the match, and posting why it is a good match. For the following 2 weeks, the battle is stickied so that people can see it. The participants and the ref, receive extra counters for their excellent battle. So between any two SOtGs, there are battles being nominated, and a battle being showcased.

    7.
    I don't think that the combo should be stopped. In a real anime battle, a trainer would be able to tell the pokemon what to do after it is taunted. Battles should not be a turn by turn kind of thing where nothing can be changed after orders are given.
  4. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2009
    Messages:
    2,625
    1. Still waiting for raids to go public. I'm still not using items until I can get my hands on Life Orb for Krillowatt.
    2. Hmm. Maybe. I have an idea for Acrobatics-6 base power if you have a held item but not your opponent, 8, 9 if, 11 if you have no items but your opponent does.

    This basically gives Acrobatics a BP of 9 in no items formats.

    As for similar moves...I haven't really seen Venoshock/Acrobatics much, if only because I haven't faced Flora, Rediamond, or anyone with an Archen. I'd have to see more concrete date of it being abused first.
    3. On the fence-while on one hand it makes Cranidos even better, on the other hand, it gives the few mons with rank 6+ numbers (besides legends unlikely to be introduced any time soon) a bigger advantage.
    4. Well, in-game stuff like that gets weakened over multiple mons.

    Multiple target move idea: Damage is considered to be b*3/(t+2), where b=base damage and t=number of targets intentionally hit (this rules out things like Surf.) So if you try to hit 1 mon only, you're at full power, try to hit 2 it's at 3/4 base power, try to hit 3 it's 3/5ths, 4 it's 1/2, 5 it's 3/7's...the chain goes downward. Eventually it becomes useless to try these moves.

    5. To be honest, even I'm not entirely certain I know the rules well enough-and apparently my reffing quality was high enough to get onto here. I'm in favor of guiding new refs through the process.
    6. Good idea. I also support the creation of a permanent "hall of fame" archive.
    7. Add the point of "the usage of Disable on the cooloff turn of a combo." It recently came up in Freezing Fury (my RP pet project), where the ref thought that a Ralts using Disable after an Icy Wind+Blizzard combination meant "not using that combo again." However, because the user specified Blizzard for disabling, Flora got involved and caused a redo. As this situation could probably come up again, hard-codifying how Disable and the like affect combination attacks/their constituent moves would probably be a good idea.

    Also, I'd like to add the following:

    Finally, I think that as CAP1 winds down, we should get work done on converting Scratchet to ASB.
  5. Destiny Warrior

    Destiny Warrior also known as Darkwing_Duck
    is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
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    3,171
    Converting Scratchet to ASB actually is easy, I doubt if it would take more than ten minutes. The main issue is the movepool, which once fully voted on, will make it ready for ASB.
  6. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,975
    1) As you said, they're still in their early stages, so I cannot really tell

    2) I would be in favour of raising the energy requirement of Acrobatics to 7. While it may still seem a bit low for what effectively is a 11 BP move, keep in mind that items are going to become more common pretty soon - especially thanks to the Subway. So going without an item will actually become a tough choice like it should be. About Venoshock, I think 7 energy is a reasonable cost for it too. While powerful with Toxic support, keep in mind that Poison is a kind of terrible type offensively, and given the variety of moves available to CAP Pokémon, it may even not outdamage some supereffective moves.

    3) Totally contrary. Most of these Pokémon have concrete disadvantages in other stats or ability in order to have an extraordinary score somewhere. Rampardos is incredibly slow and kind of frail, Chandelure is not so bulky with 90 HP, Cloyster has weak SpD, Steelix is really slow and has average SpD, and the list goes on. Taking away or crippling the only strong feat they have is turning them from competitive to mediocre, which I'm completely against. Plus, it generates odd situations, where for example a Timid Chandelure (Rank 6 SpA) attacking a Naive Mienshao (Rank 1 SpD) causes less damage then a Modest Chandelure (Rank 7 SpA) attacking the same Mienshao (As (6-1)*1.5=7.5 while (7-1)*1=6), which is ridiculous to me.

    4) Definitely. The best action courses would probably be reducing the damage inflicted based on the amount of targets (I really like Tortferngatr's formula).

    5) I wouldn't know, to be honest

    6) I like it

    7) Depends. In the case of Mud Sport + Crush Claw, for example, if the resulting combo is an attacking move, Taunt should not affect it in my opinion. But, if for example someone uses Telekinesis + Earth Power to cancel the opponent's Magnet Rise like it happened in a match I reffed, Taunt should stop it as it is a non-damaging combo.
  7. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Your math is totally off here. The Ranks from 1-5 are worth 1.5 damage each. The discussion is about the ranks above that.

    Timid Chandelure: (5-1)*1.5 = 6 + 1(1 Rank over 5) = 7 Base Difference.. (5-1)*1.5 - 6 + 2(2 Ranks over 5) = 8 Base Difference.

    Ranks 1-5 exist to normalize all Pokemon for ASB. Ranks above that are not as effective, but still provide a bonus. As argued in the last SotG, this balances items like Choice Band/Specs (Rank x1.5) which otherwise would be completely unbalanced.

    This is already in the long form damage calculator and has been in every Excel calculator since inception. Thus why I called it a clarification in the last SotG, not a change. I don't know how many times I have to emphasize this. There was no change. There was a notation error in the original long form calculator that did not operate as intended. I will clarify this as many times as it takes to sink in.

    The question at hand is whether to make all ranks Above 5 count for 1.5, which would be an increase from the 1.0 they currently offer.
  8. Venser

    Venser

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    I don't have much time now but I thought I'd just comment on this. I've only really seen one match with sloppy reffing because it was brought up on irc, and I think this is one of the things that we would need examples to be able to discuss properly. Hell, in my first reffing, I was making mistakes left and right.
  9. MK Ultra

    MK Ultra BOOGEYMAN
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    points to venser's avatar
    everyone highlight the bottom of the op B)

    Anyway, I have had experience with Venoshock, and it's enormously powerful. 14 bp, then stab, a tiny energy cost, and if toxiced (which everything gets) your damage per turn is huuuuuuge on a non-resist.

    Imo 6 stars deserve a six star boost - i.e. 1.5 damage boost. (It makes very little difference in practice however).

    I have no plans to play a match larger than triples anytime soon, with the possible exception of a few street brawls. Anyhow, I don't feel qualified enough to talk about this issue; same for combos. I also don't watch many battles, so others' reffing hasn't really affected me. There has been nothing terrible in any of my matches (errors and stuff, but not huge).

    A BOTW thing is a great idea.
  10. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    1) Too early to tell, as aside from the dojo, none have become public or particularly popular. I want to abstain from giving a comment at the same point.

    2) Despite having a number of poison types, I have not abused Venoshock myself, and I have a bias that has absolutely nothing objective to it, so I won't comment. Acrobatics probably needs either an energy increase or BP decrease in no items battles from past experiences.

    3) I like the current system. Otherwise, certain offensive mons would be almost unstoppable, and certain walls (Shuckle, Steelix) would become indestructible. The stats are meant to be somewhat balanced. Let's keep it that way.

    4) Agree with reducing damage. However, we could reduce damage by range covered, rather than targets. I.e. Moving a surf across an arena deals less damage than a close one, Rock Slide on two targets next to each other would only have a slight reduction, if any, on opposite sides of the arena it would be fairly large. Don't have a formula to present at the time.

    5) Reffing within certain DQs is hard. Also, SOME ROUNDS ARE BORING. I'm not kidding, but I quite frequently see four replica actions and another pair in the middle of the others in a two round time frame. Seriously, I'll find time to ref a creative match. Otherwise, it's kind of just a repetitive chore that it isn't worth spending time on. That would he part of the deterioration.

    6) Once a month or two maybe. A week just seems fast, but it's not worth debating this one.

    7) Just the first of mechanics problems stemming from combos. I mentioned a silent paradigm earlier in my combo rant (the non-deleted one). The fact is, most of the games mechanics right now are questionable, and the uses and executions of combos are at the core. To answer the question before I move on, I think it depends on the situation, like relative speeds and the combo used.

    As for my proposal, I ask that we rewrite all mechanics in a guide that is impossible to bend without breaking it. The fact is, I still don't know what a round is. Almost no mechanics such as actions are in the DA thread. This is how stuff like combos, which bent or broke most structure rules, were allowed to occur. What defines an action? In the early game, it was time. A certain command might not be an action, as it would take longer than an attack to execute. Or, an action could be a simple attack. For reasons formerly mentioned in my last appeal agaist combos, that will be restated here, this no longer applies. The very nature of a combo -two actions used in one with nothing occuring the next action to compensate- defies the time rule, by saying that a lot can occur on or action, but a recharge must occur later. That means I can scale a mountain action one, but I would have to rest for actions two and three. It also defies the "move=action" basis. There are three moves and a rest (considered an action). That means that a four action has been created. In addition, if I can borrow time and fuse actions, are actions continuous? For instance, if a slower pokemon flinched a faster one, are the two actions continuous, so the faster mon flinches? The point is, the rules of the game and the rules of combos have seperate mechanics, so questions like those have no good answer. Therefore, I propose we create a very specific guide to all mechanics. That, or ban combos and be done with these problems. I just want to know the rules of the game I'm playing.
  11. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    Quoted for truth. While I totally understand that it is impossible to have every aspect of ASB and every possible situation translated into rules because there will always be unique cases to take care of, I find kind of annoying when the ASB Audit Thread deliberately leave vague certain effects where it would take only an act of good will to fix them.

    Take the description of Water Gun, for example. It says that "when drenched, the opponent may be more susceptible to electrical attacks". Now, I'd lean towards interpreting it as a +3 boost in damage to the next electric attack which hits the targets. Maybe someone else could intend it in a slightly tweaked way. The point is, just like we reached an agreement on how stage boosts work, it wouldn't take anything but good effort to quantify the added effect of Water Gun. And this is just an example, the Audit Thread is full of grey points unjustifiably left unclear.

    As Rediamond said, "I just want to know the rules of the game I'm playing". As I said before, I understand it's not 100% possible, but why we can't make more objective and less discretional what we can?
  12. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    1. No way to tell, except the Dojo has seen a high number of people, more than I think was predicted. The other locations seem sparse, although I think Acklow's Berry Pies looks good, I will investigate later.

    2. Acrobatics - I think that acrobatics is easily more fooled than it looks. As a Ref, I believe being Encumbered can include more than just items - Having to escape from underneath a pile of rocks after a Rock Slide, Dealing with a frozen route of ice after an Ice Beam or Blizzard, or having an unsupportive arena. I personally find the move to be fine - It encourages creativity in my eyes, and although it may need an energy increase on the stronger attack, it's perfectly fine.

    3. I believe the system needs a minor change to make it not a case of stats themselves, but stat difference. So if the difference is greater than, for instance, 5 (I'd rather this be 4, but 5 seems to be the accepted norm), then you would change the modifier. So If the difference was 4, then it would be 4 * 1.5 = 6. If the difference was 7, then it would be (5 * 1.5) + (2 * 1), = 9.5.

    4. Damage split should vary by move. Earthquake, for instance, won't become weaker depending on other targets, and Hyper Voice won't have to share it's volume between whatever's in the way. Rock Slide, on the other hand, uses a sort of ammo to hit in which each damaging chunk only can hit 1 target, hence the move would be split in damage.

    If this would take too much time, then I support Rediamond's proximity modifier.

    5. I would say that referees are a tiny bit sloppy, but everyone makes mistakes. Some people also make mistakes when they're following a pattern all of the time and a change occurs. On the topic of Speed Refs, I've don a speed ref before, and I wasn't proud of it in all honest. The reffing was perfectly fine and mistake free, with my usual humour and description, but it feels morally wrong to get RC like that. I will still do so since it's common sense to get counters quickly, but unless it can be monitered it will be problematic.

    6. Highlighting good matches would be a good idea, but I'd rather see matches where people can learn thins from being highlighted - that includes the people playing from day 1, and those who are having their first day. A good idea though (And people giving comments on that match would make people happier).

    7. I aggree with Zarator here - Offensive Combos should function (Albeit with a reduced effect chance), wheras defensive combos should fail.
  13. Temperantia

    Temperantia

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    The only point I wish to comment on is #2. I believe the only changethat should be made to both is an increased energy cost to the two as their more powerful version.
    A damage decrease would be hugely detrimental to the large amount of pokemon with Acrobatics as their highest BP Flying type move, and there is a ridiculous amount of types that resist Poison, making Venoshock less of an issue than it seems.
    For AoE attacks I think an energy increase/damage decrease (see triples in the cartridge games) should be implemented to target >3 Pokemon.

    EDIT: Also, about the stat system for >5 ranked stats, I think it should count as the full 1.5. It doesn't affect much and it seems pointless to mildly penalize higher stat Pokemon who generally have lower stats in everything else. (Examples: Rampardos and Cloyster)
  14. Fire Blast

    Fire Blast

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    I'm not sure where to put this, so I'll just put it here. It is not a very significant change, but I edited Scale of Damages to make it a bit easier. Instead of entering the Base Stat of the pokemon, you can enter the species name of the pokemon. Using VLookup, it finds the stats from a list of Pokemon/Stats that I copied from an Excel Pokedex. I added in the CAPs and then did the Vlookup stuff. It requires spelling the pokemon's name correct. Here is the link: http://www.2shared.com/file/7Ypeffor/Scale_of_Damages_Update_31_.html

    Deck Knight, if you want to take a look at it and double-check, please go ahead.
  15. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    1. Since the last SotG, the RP threads have been created and RP'ing for ASB members has started. What do you think about how the RP's have managed so far?

    I think they've come out well. There seems to be a slight lull at the moment, but they're moving well and I don't think anything needs to change.

    2. Some moves have been brought to the forefront of discussion for being overpowered due to ASB "standard" rules. What should be done about these moves, if anything?

    I would say that this can't be answered easily, because it depends on the move. For Acrobat specifically, I'd suggest adding 3 base power rather than doubling, ljust like everything else in ASB.

    3. Should Pokemon who have stats higher than Stage 5 retain their "modified" bonuses of 1 damage instead of 1.5, or should it be changed to 1.5 per stat increase?

    No real opinion, although I lean towards keeping it the way it is. I like the idea of making more Pokemon viable.

    4. Should multi-target moves in formats that are greater than Triples (which have in-game guidelines) have rules implemented as to how many Pokemon should be hit or be affected?

    This is a problem I have run into many times. I find it depends on the move, because the most common moves like this hurt teammates as well (Surf, Earthquake etc.). The only one which really needs changing is Rock Slide, which is utterly broken in large battles at the moment. I have gone in my bigger battles that it can target three Pokemon, and each extra one over this adds 3 Energy cost. The doubles' 75% power reduction should also come into effect.

    5. It seems that refereeing as of late has become a bit sloppy (not listing specific examples, but there's a consensus that this is happening). What should be done to remedy this problem? Should we implement a stricter "Referee Assistant to Referee" type of system?

    I don't think this is much of a problem. There is a lot to do in reffing, and I think that refs actually do a damn good job at it. As for speed reffing, this is obviously a bad idea and should be discouraged, although I can't think of anything to do about it. All I can think of is to just ask people not to do it.

    6. On a lighter note, in order to promote battle watching for both battlers and referees, we might be instating a "Battle of the Week" type of system where ASB players vote for a certain match-up and can view it. They will be called "Highlight Matches". The match will be pinned for all to see, and the battle will have top-notch talent and referees to display ASB's battling at its finest. Is this a good idea?

    Definitely behind this. Great idea.

    7. Regarding combos, if one part of a combo is prevented (say someone Taunts a combo of Mud Sport + Crush Claw), should the combo be converted to an actual attack automatically for turns 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3 alternatively), or should the combo simply be stopped and the second action be used for turn 2 (or 3 alternatively)?

    Yes, it should. The combo is one move when it is used, so if some of it can't be used then none of it can. However, I would like to point out that Taunt shouldn't necessarily work like that: if a combo is offensive, it should be allowed under Taunt, even if one of the two moves is not offensive.

    Now, there are a few other things I want to bring up, beginning with speed, and whether it can intentionally be lowered by a Pokemon. It has been discussed at length, and I never saw a conclusion. An example is when someone tells a Pokemon to move last, which fits with flavour easily enough but does raise the issue of what happens when two Pokemon try to go last. I would suggest that in this case the slower Pokemon moves second, and that otherwise people should have license to move with their speed only as an upper bound, but this should be discussed.

    Also, and on a related note, moves like Fly, Bounce and Dive need to be clarified: with -1 priority, it seems that, if you move first, you can avoid opponents attacks by Bouncing/Flying/Diving to dodge attacks and then coming up after a Pokemon attacks. I would suggest that whether an attack hits is down to the attack: Rock Throw hits as a projectile, Thunderbolt hits as something which comes from the sky down to a Pokem, and Psychic hits as a Psychic attack, but Cross Chop from a land-bound Pokemon does not hit. This should however be clarified one way or the other.

    Also, and most importantly, I hereby start a petition to bring back stars in stats. I don't know why they went and they should be brought back immediately.
  16. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Your Pokemon listing had a lot of errors in it. I think the columns got swapped somewhere when you tried to import the data.

    I fixed it, made sure the formulas work, and now it's been updated with the species instead of the base stats.

    Here is the Google Docs link: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc...EJ2WkhVeDBEdHNNLXlQNmc&hl=en&authkey=CP2vw5MB

    If you download the calculator again, you'll see the new species changes. Excellent work, Fire Blast.

    People were getting confused by all the different notations, so we moved to a Ranking system in its place. It's more boring, but less confusing for people to both read and format. No changes to gameplay occurred as a result of the shift.
  17. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    I know that there were no gameplay changes, but stars just looked a lot better, and I never really understood why ****** was confusing anyway. "Rank 3" just sounds so artificial, and so removed from what ASB is supposed to be.
  18. Its_A_Random

    Its_A_Random The imitated
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    Let's just put it this way, which would be more easier to read?
    A. ********** (+)
    B. Rank 10 (+)
    Most people would pick option B. Besides, I found it far easier to calculate with ranks than stars when doing some reffing, & many people would agree with me, so I suppose the ranks are here to stay. (In case you were wondering, Shuckle can achieve a Rank 10 stat, not that it really matters...)

    Onto the questions.

    1. Not much opinion, but they're doing well, they're still young though, but they'll grow well.
    2. Acrobatics. Enough said. Then again, I reckon Bounce & Fly should be two turn attacks rather than a negative priority...
    3. I agree, change it, not much to say.
    4. I'm with Athenodoros on this one.
    5. This has some fine-lining to it. As long as there's some actual substance in the flavour other than Pokemon used move, Pokemon used move...It's fine. I think an assistant referee is going a little bit overboard, however. Personally, When I ref, I try to be fast, but actually put substance, at least, for a full round, it would take about half an hour to ref, but personally, it's okay to be concise with reffing, as long as it has some substance in the flavour, it doesn't matter...I guess I'm just rambling now...
    6. Yes, good idea.
    7. Yes.

    Congratulations on the new committee members, hope you guys can do well. Its_A_Random, signing out.
  19. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight A Knight for the Aegis
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    Specific Moves:

    Dig, Fly, and Bounce do not have negative priority. What happens is they take up one action but have two stages. The first is the Digging/Bouncing/Flying. This happens at an ordinary priority given the Pokemon's speed. If a 70 Spe mon attacks a Pokemon with 60 Spe ordered to Dig, that Pokemon will be struck before digging. If a 50 Spe mon attacks a Pokemon with 60 Spe ordered to Dig, the Pokemon will begin Digging first.

    What happens after that depends on multiple factors:

    1. Proximity. If a slower Pokemon is in proximity and uses an attack that can be aimed down the Digging Pokemon's hole, they will pursue that target and strike them. If there is only negligible speed differences, they may even be able to catch the Digging Pokemon as they go underground (much less likely if said Digger is Ground type)

    2. Specification. Dig can be used evasively, in which case Dig will not do any damage, the Pokemon will remain underground, and they will expend 3 (or 2 for Ground types) Energy to remain underground. The same is true for Fly, which can also be used evasively to remain in the air at a greater than normal distance, preventing most distance attacks from striking the flying target (the difference being there are very few non-Flying types than can use Fly, but a huge multitude of non-Ground types than can use Dig). Bounce cannot do this, as Bounce inherently implies a hard landing, thus its 30% paralysis chance. It's like a modified Body Slam.

    Acrobatics:

    This is how Acrobatics is intended to be read. Thus why the description says "Encumbered" and not specifically "an item." As it stands, Acrobatics is a 6 or 11 powered move with 7 EC and no additional effect. To me this keeps it on the level of most standard attacks, which are 10 BP, 7 Energy, and have a side effect (Flamethrower/Ice Beam etc.)

    Venoshock:

    I have just altered Venoshock to have similar language to Acrobatics. It now has 7 or 13 Base Power. The move itself has a 9 Energy Cost, which is basically prohibitive to use unless the opponent is indeed Poisoned.

    The moves more or less function exactly as they do in-game. They have conditionals to meeting their higher base powers, and those conditionals can be more or less difficult to activate. In any case, I don't think they are particularly unbalanced.

    As far as mechanics, I doubt anyone has difficulty understanding the 3 actions per round dynamic (or 2 actions in Triples+) I can codify it more specifically if needed, and will do so below.

    Rounds and Actions:

    Round:

    A Round is generally composed of two or three actions depending on the battle format. In each Round, players alternate their actions. Rounds end prematurely only in the case where all Pokemon on every side of the field except one are knocked out. Effects that are based on Rounds (Weather, Field Effects) are weaker in Triples+ Battles, while effects that are based on Actions (Magnet Rise, Taunt) are stronger.

    Action:

    An Action is an Attack, Command, or Combination that is executed during a Round. Because of the massive variation in attacks, the actual time to complete a single action is not bounded. If you must have a standard of time, ask yourself if an attack could be executed to completion within 20 seconds. The overwhelming majority of Attacks, Commands, and Combinations comfortably fit in this timeframe. Combinations combine two Attacks into one Action, and cause the second Action to be spent doing nothing.

    What few exceptions usually involve using physical contact attacks by slow Pokemon over great distances. A Pokemon with 35 Spe is unlikely to be able to Brick Bream an opponent 20m away, however a Pokemon with 125 Spe should not have such an issue, unless the attack is very powerful or complicated, like a Focus Punch.
  20. Arcanite

    Arcanite

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    I would like to say that I think that encore is too broken. When going second on a turn, you can be locked into a useless move for 3 turns, leaving you a sitting duck, and requiring you to use your substition to counter encore when going first for a turn.
  21. zarator

    zarator Credits to Mos-Quitoxe for the cute sprite^^
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    Encore is not broken. Aside from the fact the Pokémon which get Taunt are much more than the Pokémon which get Encore, I don't see anything broken in having to be wary about using non-attacking moves against a Pokémon with Encore if you go first. It's nothing different from having to think carefully when a Whimsicott switches into your Swords Dancing Excadrill and you don't know if it will use Encore or not.
  22. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    If we investigate Encore, we should investigate Taunt, Disable, and Imprison as well. Disable has the buff of choice-you can disable any of the previous three moves the opponent has made, and Imprison is WAY more useful when you can Imprison a large swathe of moves at once/a specific move the enemy mon can use.

    But I don't really care much for an investigation of those-just saying we should be consistent if we do so.

    Additionally, since this seems to be being brought up in IRC- I propose we clarify the consecutive moves rule and how it works across rounds. I've heard conflicting sources on IRC about this one, and clarifying how it works would be useful. Debate over this might be useful, given that different refs have worked differently about this and a clearly labeled, fixed standard would be useful.
  23. Acklow

    Acklow

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    I apologize for my lack of comments and activity. I didn't think that it would have to come to this, so I'm going to use what time I have tonight before I go to bed to make my comments. My comments will be in bold.

    1. Since the last SotG, the RP threads have been created and RP'ing for ASB members has started. What do you think about how the RP's have managed so far?

    Well, so far, my RP has been going okay...however, I've been relatively idle, so I can't say much about that. I hope to get more time later on when I can finally settle down with my current job. So hopefully by then I'll be able to devote more time to getting stuff done around it. As for the Dojo, I'd say it is the most active thread. However, I am sorry for my bias but I'll have to say that it is rather lacking in the "RP" department, rather acting as a separate thread for battling purposes along with generic FAQs questions about combos and stuff. The Battle Subway I have yet to look at, but it seems to be okay, though a tad more flavor would never hurt. The Raids and Pokethlon are also something I haven't looked at, but when I get the chance, I probably will. So far, all of the RPs have been very lightweight in terms of story-material/role-playing stuff. Therefore, I wouldn't say there are any heavy-duty RPs around yet (I've been trying to make mine get there, but since I'm usually inactive, I can't...=(
    RPs will be the crux of item-gathering in ASB so it is important for them to float around. It is also a vital experience in creating an important flavor-atmosphere in which battles and such can revolve around our ASB's own "meta-narrative".



    2. Some moves have been brought to the forefront of discussion for being overpowered due to ASB "standard" rules. What should be done about these moves, if anything? Which moves should be addressed, and what should be done about them? We can either leave them as is, increase energy costs, or change the moves entirely. We are also open to any other ideas as well.

    Well the question I have to ask is "What is considered Standard?" In my personal opinion, people have fallen into a trend in which the rules that everyone thinks is most convenient is:
    1v1 Singles
    No Items
    2 Recovers/5 Chills
    3 Day DQ
    etc...
    My point here is that this has become the "Standard" that everyone has fallen into. There are not a lot of battles that I have seen that work with other kinds of rules. Of course that's what I've seen so far. I may be wrong, but I doubt it (lol). So in order for us to address these "standard" moves, we need to understand what context they can be used in. Personally I feel that these kind of moves should be left as is. Items have not seen dominance due to their expensive properties not to mention their lack of usage in battles. So moves like Acrobatics have become a problem because of this. Moves like Venoshock could simply be debuffed by giving Poisoning a incremental decrease per round, similar to how Paralysis "fazes" away.


    3. Should Pokemon who have stats higher than Stage 5 retain their "modified" bonuses of 1 damage instead of 1.5, or should it be changed to 1.5 per stat increase?

    I don't really have an opinion here. Stats are just not my thing (at least for now). I'd prefer to keep my focus on improving the RPs in this forum.

    4. Should multi-target moves in formats that are greater than Triples (which have in-game guidelines) have rules implemented as to how many Pokemon should be hit or be affected?

    This was originally a problem in old Street Brawl battles, but has kind of stretched out to Quadruples and greater matches. Should moves like Rock Slide and Surf be defined as to how many targets they should hit, and in conjunction, should moves like Reflect, Light Screen, and Safeguard be defined as to how many teammates they affect?

    Perhaps we can address this as an issue of how close the targets are to the attack? For example, say a Squirtle uses Surf. Nearby (let's say 5-10 meters), sit a Charmander and a Bulbasaur. A Pikachu sits 30 meters away. The attack would obviously hit Charmander and Bulbasaur who are both closer to the Squirtle, while Pikachu would remain unaffected. This kind of issue needs to be addressed by the Referee of the battle, as it is usually their deciding factor that makes this kind of issue final.

    5. It seems that refereeing as of late has become a bit sloppy (not listing specific examples, but there's a consensus that this is happening). What should be done to remedy this problem? Should we implement a stricter "Referee Assistant to Referee" type of system?
    While ASB appreciates the work that its referees have done, it's come to my attention that some referees have been ignoring standard game mechanics that should be known by all referees, including secondary effects of moves and type-arena advantages. This leads us to believe that some sort of referee training should be implemented into ASB, in order to better inform up and coming ASB referees until they are ready to take on refereeing.
    Also, referees should be more carefully watched and called out (nicely) for mistakes. In conjunction, they should also be congratulated for good reffings. ASB is a friendly game first, but in order to have a tightly structured game, we need to have informed referees.
    On a similar note, "speed refereeing" should be brought to light. Some matches lately have been skimping out on detail simply to get done matches in a couple of hours. This hurts the purpose of ASB and the purpose of referees, and should not be tolerated. There should be a close lookout for these matches as well.

    I remember bringing this issue up in one of the original SotG threads, or something along those lines. I made an extensive post on creativity and that sort of stuff. So in honor of that post, I will say once again that creativity is a large factor in refereeing. When there is a lack on the player's part to be creative, the referee does NOT get a chance to create "quality" battle updates. Therefore it should be both the player's and the referee's responsibility in making a battle worthwhile. Training would certainly fix this problem. I'd suggest that some of our more experienced referees take some time out of their hands and put together a training session for our newer or sloppier referees. It would obviously be the job of Flora, the Secretaries, and Deck Knight to find out who could be a "good" ref and who needs that training.

    6. On a lighter note, in order to promote battle watching for both battlers and referees, we might be instating a "Battle of the Week" type of system where ASB players vote for a certain match-up and can view it. They will be called "Highlight Matches". The match will be pinned for all to see, and the battle will have top-notch talent and referees to display ASB's battling at its finest. Is this a good idea?
    Truthfully, this is my own idea, but I've gotten a bit of support for it, so I wanted to bring it up here. I think it's fun to watch battles, but I also think that it's an overlooked activity on the ASB forum. Having a highlight match will promote enthusiasm while also giving inexperienced trainers an idea of how to better their game AND inexperienced referees an idea of how to properly referee matches. What are your thoughts on this?

    I agree with this. In fact, this is a stupendous idea. If I would have thought of this earlier, I'm sure I would have brought it up asap. This is one of those things that can spark creativity amongst less experienced battlers and refs.

    7. Regarding combos, if one part of a combo is prevented (say someone Taunts a combo of Mud Sport + Crush Claw), should the combo be converted to an actual attack automatically for turns 1 and 2 (or 2 and 3 alternatively), or should the combo simply be stopped and the second action be used for turn 2 (or 3 alternatively)?
    It's a small detail, but a detail that definitely is important enough to address with the increasing popularity of combos. What should be done in these circumstances? Should a combo be considered one whole unique attack that can be prevented?

    I'm not going to say much about this. Mechanics are not my forte. Just saying...



    And on a final note, I would like to actually change the way stats are shown so that they aren't formatted: "Rank Etc." but instead "1" or "3" or whatever the number is. "Ranking" is just terminology and I feel that when it comes to formatting our Pokemon's Bios and Stats, putting "Rank" before a number is unnecessary. It clutters and make things a little messy imo. The star system was nice, but since everybody feels that "Ranks" are much better, why don't we simplify it further? Therefore my proposal is:

    1)Redo the Stat System so that Numbers are used instead of Ranks and Stars in order to further simplify the current system.
  24. Banryu

    Banryu

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,740
    Like Acklow, I haven't really had a lot of time to be active in ASB lately... I'd like to address many of these points further, but for now, I want to make just a few comments and suggestions.

    1) I'm super excited about the RP threads, however, I've had little time to participate or familiarize myself with the rules involved in each. I'd love to do so whenever I have the time, and possibly contribute one of my own.

    2) I have some very specific ideas as to what can be done about certain 'overpowered' moves, which I will detail. I feel very strongly about these, and have heavily considered what the best method to balancing these out will be:
    - Acrobatics: should cost more Energy to perform the move when the user is not holding an item, comparable to that of Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, and whatnot. When the user IS holding an item, it retains its current energy cost. I propose 10 Energy for the 11 BP attack. I think this would be the best way to balance the move in battling environments with or without items; any other changes would be messing with it too much (although the energy cost itself is debatable, I'm rather bad with number-based estimations).
    - Venoshock: I feel that the base damage of this move is simply a little overpowered. I think the best thing to do would be to slightly nerf the damage output, say from 7 / 14 to 6 / 12, and to raise the energy cost to 8, under the same grounds as Deck's reason. I think that both takes care of its high power (unless we think that the Poison-typing needs the help, which I wouldn't argue with) and keeps it a reliable attacking choice to use when the opponent is Toxicked.

    4) Yes, this should definitely be a factor. I support the fact that street battles are now abolished wholeheartedly, it was just too complicated for refs to keep track of realistic events in that fashion, but there should be a system for doubles and triples that specifies which moves can always or even sometimes hit multiple targets.

    5) I'm not really sure what can be done about the reffing. :0 The only idea that comes to mind is intervention by the head ref or another senior ref... this could range in severity from mild consultation via PM regarding effects of certain moves, or potentially the rewriting or even forced replacement of a ref, depending on how sloppy a job is being done. Refs should really above all respect the efforts and intentions of the players, in my mind. I can't tell you how irritating it is to give an order with an unusual, but very specific and blatantly-laid out intention, only to have it interpreted as standard by the ref, or worse, ignored outright. It IS a problem, and some more time needs to be spent on a solution, I suppose.

    6) Love the idea. I'd love to be able to RP as a spectator in some battles, but I know how that can lead to inadvertantly helping or hurting the players, via coaching, demoralization, or whatever. I think this is a great alternative, and I want to see something like this happen. Having a reffing system model to look at via something like this would help beginning refs a great deal, I think.

    7) ...I think... no, not necessarily. The spirit of Taunt is that it prevents the opponent from using a non-attacking action. I would say that using a non-attacking move in combination with an attacking move that results in a damaging attack should NOT be affected by taunt. Conversely though, a combo that results in a non-attacking effect, whether or not an attacking move is part of the combo, should be prevented by Taunt

    For instance, the action of Mud Sport + Crush Claw (assumably adding a mud element to crush claw) would not be prevented by Taunt. However, an action like using Gust to increase the accuracy of Supersonic would be prevented by Taunt.

    EDIT: I just realized that zarator basically said exactly that ^ :| LOL anyway I guess that just means that we're all in agreement.
  25. Blue_Tornado

    Blue_Tornado

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,331
    on the topic of acrobatics:
    I didn't check if this has been proposed already but.. like there are moves that get hindered when a certain rule is on/off (like phaze moves not forcing switches with switch=ko), acrobatics should get hindered when items are off. it only makes sense.
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