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Data State of the Game - 5/11/2011 (UPDATE ON 5/16/2011)

Discussion in 'ASB' started by DarkSlay, May 11, 2011.

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  1. Engineer Pikachu

    Engineer Pikachu Good morning, you bastards!
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    May 23, 2009
    I was going to post something about 5-turn moves, but it looks like I got beat to the punch.

    Reflect and Light Screen normally last 5 turns, but they last only 6 actions in ASB. This is understandable, as they are subtracting 5 from the base power of affected moves. Assuming that this asset is utilized each action, you're looking at a total of -30 BP. Sunny Day and Rain Dance give +3 to each move and, assuming that you're utilizing this boost each action, will take 10 actions to reach the same level as Reflect and Light Screen. Given this, why don't we reduce weather moves to 3 rounds?
  2. deadfox081

    is a Forum Moderator

    Mar 31, 2011
    I think the issue is that weather isn't always used to just boost base power. You might be looking to activate an ability, do passive damage, even some self healing. Plus if you only give 3 rounds to utilise the.sun/rain then you're very much locked in to using those fire/water moves for those 3 rounds, greatly reducing creativity and options. Reflect and light screen on the other hand impact on basically half the move spectrum.
  3. Tortferngatr


    Sep 8, 2009
    Not only that, but Hail pretty much is ONLY used for abilities/passive damage. I think Rediamond has an okay solution, although it might be good to only increase it to 12.

    I also had an idea for it if Rediamond's idea passes-when a Pokemon with a permanent weather ability refreshes weather, it only costs 10 energy to do so.
  4. Pallas Athena

    Pallas Athena

    Aug 9, 2010
    Have you been looking at zarator vs Kaxtar? The entire battle's main trick of sub abuse would have been impossible without high speed. And then there's Taunt, and the ability to strike a final blow in tight matches, and several other speed dependent factors. Also, speed is often used to balance an otherwise epic mon, and make otherwise weaker ones better. Being able to suddenly reverse this for the remainder of the battle for 10 energy seems rather broken. If anything, Trick Room is worse than weather.
  5. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Head Mod

    May 27, 2005
    RE: Weather/Rooms Vs. Screens:

    I used anime precedent for the justifications of power and duration on these. Screens in the Anime tend to only effect the Pokemon that uses them (though doubles/triples battles are an anomaly in the anime anyway). More often than not they are Pokemon specific. Weather on the other hand is a field effect, and effects both sides. Weather can also backfire where screens really can't. Unless you want to spend another 10 energy to change the weather, chances are your Grass types can get fried or your Water types can get zapped to death. Sandstorm and Hail's effects aren't really that far-reaching, they generally only benefit specific Pokemon.

    The rooms are a little trickier to navigate, but I feel justified in giving them the same duration as weather. 10 energy is 10% of a Pokemon's energy in a match. A Chill barely negates it, and even for Sandstorm/Hail, 2 HP per action is arduously slow. Over time it can do 30 residual damage if it's active for all 15 actions. The fact you can just nullify someone's weather with your own also helps. For those faster mons that learn it, you can also negate an opponent's Trick Room with your own.

    So basically screens are shorter duration with a more powerful immediate effect. 5 BAP was selected as that cuts down the power of standard issue beam attacks by half without STAB, and a little less with it.

    There's always going to be some effect that looks OP'd, but some moves are better than others generally. That's just the way it goes with 500+ moves.

    In any event I will get a summary post up and prepare everything for a vote soon.
  6. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Mar 13, 2010
    There's one more thing that I'd like to add, and that's the possibility of allowing people to post in ongoing matches. I think it'd encourage people to spectate more, and it would create the kind of atmosphere in some matches that you see in good players playing on simulators, especially in tournaments. The recent spectator participation matches show that after the initial buzz of being able to post in matches, it doesn't get ridiculous, and I've had it before that I've wanted to post in other people's matches.

    EDIT: Also, now that I remember:

    Can this be removed, because it is flat out contradicted and ignored by the rest of the thread and by the community?
  7. Temperantia


    Mar 9, 2011
    Lol if the rules really want to get technical it should be more momentum-based than velocity. Mass times velocity over some divisor equals the momentum boost to Tackling/Full-body Attacks.

    But seriously, no one uses those Velocity Calculations and it would give some really odd Pokemon a power advantage if they were used.
    Imo, real world Physics=/= Pokemon mechanics.
  8. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

    Mar 13, 2010
    I think you've missed the point. We all know junior school physics, I was asking about "However, speed boosts do not translate into faster execution of attacks, just better ground/air speed."
  9. Temperantia


    Mar 9, 2011
    Lol what? That part doesn't make any sense. By that statement it's the exact opposite as the cartridge games...
  10. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight RIP DryPass Vaporeon
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Head Mod

    May 27, 2005
    This is the slate of implementations/votes.


    MC Increase when both DC and EC are full (open)

    A Pokemon will receive 1 additional MC per battle when both its EC and DC are full at the start of the battle.

    Targeting Limitations in Multi-Battles (open)

    No Attack that can hit multiple targets can strike more than 3 opposing and 2 allied Pokemon at once in any multi-battle format.

    Self-Targeting Attacks Clarification (open)

    A Pokemon may target itself with any attack where such an action is physically possible. Ability descriptions have been edited to account for self-directed attacks. A Self-targeting attack is defined as any attack a Pokemon launches at itself that would ordinarily be used on any other target. An allied attack in doubles is not a self-directed attack.

    Round and Action Codification (open)


    A Round is generally composed of two or three actions depending on the battle format. In each Round, players alternate their actions. Rounds end prematurely only in the case where all Pokemon on every side of the field except one are knocked out. Effects that are based on Rounds (Weather, Field Effects) are weaker in Triples+ Battles, while effects that are based on Actions (Magnet Rise, Taunt) are stronger.


    An Action is an Attack, Command, or Combination that is executed during a Round. Because of the massive variation in attacks, the actual time to complete a single action is not bounded. If you must have a standard of time, ask yourself if an attack could be executed to completion within 20 seconds. The overwhelming majority of Attacks, Commands, and Combinations comfortably fit in this timeframe. Combinations combine two Attacks into one Action, and cause the second Action to be spent doing nothing.

    What few exceptions usually involve using physical contact attacks by slow Pokemon over great distances. A Pokemon with 35 Spe is unlikely to be able to Brick Bream an opponent 20m away, however a Pokemon with 125 Spe should not have such an issue, unless the attack is very powerful or complicated, like a Focus Punch.

    Consecutive Moves Clarification (open)

    Consecutive Moves do cross over rounds. If the first action this round is the same as the last action in the previous round, the Pokemon will incur the consecutive moves penalty.

    Mid-Battle Evolution Changes (open)

    Mid-Battle Evolution shall no longer be available after a KO Counter is gained, however a Pokemon can still evolve upon initial release in a match.

    Beginner Battle Implementation (open)

    Codifying Beginner Battles:

    A Beginner Battle can be codified with the following ruleset:

    1. Pokemon must be able to evolve
    2. Pokemon with 4 rarity cannot be used.
    3. Rarity Cost of Pokemon on one side of the field cannot exceed # of Pokemon + 3
    4. 1 Rarity is added to the rarity of a 2nd stage Pokemon in a 3 stage line.
    5. A Pokemon with full EC or full DC cannot be used in a Beginner Battle.

    In the battle tower thread, These rules will be added to the Battle Tower OP.

    Minor Rarity Cost Changes (open)

    Kricketot will be moved to 1 Rarity Cost.

    Voting Slate:

    Implementing a Ref Apprenticeship Program (open)

    Implementing a Ref Apprenticeship Program:

    Reffing quality is very important in ASB. With so many members now, it can be difficult to find a willing ref. Between RPs, Tournaments, and up to 3 battles each, reffing becomes exponentially harder unless a new, good quality ref is picked up for at least one out of every 3 new battlers. Therefore in order to streamline the process, an apprenticeship program is outlined below:

    Reffing Levels: Head/Tutor Ref, Registered Ref, Apprentice Ref.

    Head/Tutor Refs: The job of a Head or Tutor Ref is to guide Apprentice refs through an apprenticeship program. There will be additional compensation for Tutor Refs as a function of helping Apprentice Refs.

    Registered Ref: This is any ref that has passed the apprenticeship program. Continuous active, high quality reffings will allow a Registered Ref to apply to become a Tutor Ref. The exact process by which this will be done will be decided at a later date.

    Apprentice Ref: This is a ref going through the apprenticeship program.

    Apprenticeship Program:

    The Apprenticeship program is very simple. It pairs a Tutor Ref with an Apprentice Ref. An Apprentice Ref takes on a battle in the Battle Tower thread, and maintains private message contact with the Tutor Ref.

    Before posting the thread original post and before each round, the Apprentice Ref sends a PM to the Tutor Ref to look over. The Tutor Ref makes notes about post formatting, calculations, and any field effects added in or other circumstances of the match. Once the notes are completed, the Tutor Ref PMs the notes back to the Apprentice Ref with the original reffing. The Apprentice ref makes any necessary adjustments, and then posts the round.

    An Apprentice Ref should make PMs to their tutor ref in the following format:

    Player A vs. Player B (Original Post) for the initial post.
    ex: Deck Knight vs. Flora (Original Post)

    Once the OP is looked over, the match title should be posted:

    Player A vs. Player B. (AR: <Assistant Ref>, TR: <Tutor Ref>)
    ex. Deck Knight vs. Flora (AR: 1337H0FFA, TR: Its_A_Random)

    The same process occurs for each round, using the following format for the PM:

    Player A vs. Player B (Round 1) for the round posting.
    ex: Deck Knight vs. Flora (Round 1)

    The round will be looked at and audited for calculations, effects, etc. and PMed back to the Apprentice Ref. The Tutor Ref will also be looking at things like consistency in effects over rounds, any creative elements that could be added/subtracted, and generally anything else that might be important.

    Implementation: Flora will be in control of the first slate of Tutor Refs. Once she determines who should be considered a Tutor, Registered, and an Apprentice, the Apprenticeship program will start.

    Tutor Rewards: A Tutor shall receive a reward equal to half the RC the match gives to the Apprentice Ref for that match.

    A YES Vote will implement this program immediately

    A NO vote will push off the decision and brainstorm an alternative.

    Rank Cutoffs (open)

    Rank 5 Cutoff:

    HP: Arceus, Cresselia, Musharna, Throh, Pyroak

    Atk: Hitmonlee, Granbull, Weavile, Donphan, Blaziken, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, Staraptor, Luxray, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina-O, Arceus, Druddigon, Reshiram, Genesect.

    Def: Weezing, Rhydon, Magcargo, Donphan, Dialga, Giratina, Cresselia, Arceus, Zekrom.

    SpA: Kadabra, Magneton, Togekiss, Giratina-O, Shaymin-Sky, Arceus, Zoroark, Zekrom, Genesect, Stratagem.

    SpD: Tentacruel, Mr. Mime, Mantyke, Claydol, Kecleon, Palkia, Giratina, Arceus, Reshiram.

    A YES vote would change the lower cutoff of Rank 5 from 121 to 120, aiding the Pokemon in the list above. Several less-known Pokemon and Middle Stage NFEs benefit from this change.

    A NO vote would keep the lower cutoff of Rank 5 at 121.

    Rank 4 Cutoff:

    Rank 4 Effects:

    HP: Clefable, Slowbro, Slowking, Exeggutor, Gyarados, Umbreon, Quagsire, Wynaut, Miltank, Milotic, Salamence, Torterra, Samurott, Krookodile, Beartic, Bouffalant, Fidgit.

    Atk: Parasect, Graveler, Cloyster, Exeggutor, Hitmontop, Kangakhan, Kingdra, Magmar, Magmortar, Gliscor, Qwilfish, Sneasel, Stantler, Solrock, Anorith, Shelgon, Speed Deoxys, Crustle, Garbodor, Cinccino, Vanilluxe.

    Def: Poliwrath, Magneton, Cubone, Hitmontop, Lickilicky, Koffing, Rhyhorn, Seadra, Kingdra, Tauros, Dragonite, Togekiss, Bonsly, Trash Wormadam, Garchomp, Serperior, Conkeldurr, Gothitelle, Klang, Bouffalant, Genesect, Arghonaut.

    SpA: Golduck, Magnemite, Seadra, Kingdra, Electabuzz, Electvire, Flareon, Articuno, Xatu, Tyranitar, Slaking, Sharpedo, Lunatone, Chimecho, Walrein, Metagross, Speed Deoxys, Luxray, Rotom, Cofragrigus, Gothitelle, Lampent, Cryogonal, Mienshao, Pyroak.

    SpD: Dewgong, Lickilicky, Kingdra, Jynx, Magmortar, Lapras, Vaporeon, Jolteon, Espeon, Glaceon, Porygon2, Heracross, Trash Wormadam, Serperior, Musharna, Vanilluxe, Beheeyem, Bouffalant, Mandibuzz, Genesect.

    A YES vote would change the lower cutoff of Rank 5 from 96 to 95, aiding the Pokemon in the list above. Many Lesser-Known Pokemon, Middle evolutions, Eeveelutions, and even a few first of three stages benefit from this change.

    A NO vote would keep the lower cutoff of Rank 5 at 96.


    Reffing Apprenticeship Program:


    Stat Cutoffs:

    Rank 5:


    Rank 4:

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