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Data State of the Game - 6/10/2011

Discussion in 'ASB' started by Seven Deadly Sins, Jun 10, 2011.

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  1. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Hey there everyone, this is the third committee-based SotG, and we’ve got a lot of stuff to cover. The following mechanics have now been implemented.

    Committee Members:
    Seven Deadly Sins
    DarkSlay
    Alchemator (filling in while Kaxtar is on leave)
    Flora
    Tortferngatr
    Venser
    smashlloyd20
    GoldenKnight
    Rising_Dusk
    Athenodoros
    Acklow

    Implementations:

    MC Increase when both DC and EC are full (open)


    A Pokemon will receive 1 additional MC per battle when both its EC and DC are full at the start of the battle.


    Targeting Limitations in Multi-Battles (open)


    No Attack that can hit multiple targets can strike more than 3 opposing and 2 allied Pokemon at once in any multi-battle format.


    Self-Targeting Attacks Clarification (open)


    A Pokemon may target itself with any attack where such an action is physically possible. Ability descriptions have been edited to account for self-directed attacks. A Self-targeting attack is defined as any attack a Pokemon launches at itself that would ordinarily be used on any other target. An allied attack in doubles is not a self-directed attack.


    Round and Action Codification (open)


    Round:

    A Round is generally composed of two or three actions depending on the battle format. In each Round, players alternate their actions. Rounds end prematurely only in the case where all Pokemon on every side of the field except one are knocked out. Effects that are based on Rounds (Weather, Field Effects) are weaker in Triples+ Battles, while effects that are based on Actions (Magnet Rise, Taunt) are stronger.

    Action:

    An Action is an Attack, Command, or Combination that is executed during a Round. Because of the massive variation in attacks, the actual time to complete a single action is not bounded. If you must have a standard of time, ask yourself if an attack could be executed to completion within 20 seconds. The overwhelming majority of Attacks, Commands, and Combinations comfortably fit in this timeframe. Combinations combine two Attacks into one Action, and cause the second Action to be spent doing nothing.

    What few exceptions usually involve using physical contact attacks by slow Pokemon over great distances. A Pokemon with 35 Spe is unlikely to be able to Brick Bream an opponent 20m away, however a Pokemon with 125 Spe should not have such an issue, unless the attack is very powerful or complicated, like a Focus Punch.


    Consecutive Moves Clarification (open)


    Consecutive Moves do cross over rounds. If the first action this round is the same as the last action in the previous round, the Pokemon will incur the consecutive moves penalty.


    Mid-Battle Evolution Changes (open)


    Mid-Battle Evolution shall no longer be available after a KO Counter is gained, however a Pokemon can still evolve upon initial release in a match.


    Beginner Battle Implementation (open)


    Codifying Beginner Battles:

    A Beginner Battle can be codified with the following ruleset:

    1. Pokemon must be able to evolve
    2. Pokemon with 4 rarity cannot be used.
    3. Rarity Cost of Pokemon on one side of the field cannot exceed # of Pokemon + 3
    4. 1 Rarity is added to the rarity of a 2nd stage Pokemon in a 3 stage line.
    5. A Pokemon with full EC or full DC cannot be used in a Beginner Battle.

    In the battle tower thread, These rules will be added to the Battle Tower OP.


    Minor Rarity Cost Changes (open)


    Kricketot will be moved to 1 Rarity Cost.


    Implementing a Ref Apprenticeship Program (open)


    Implementing a Ref Apprenticeship Program:

    Reffing quality is very important in ASB. With so many members now, it can be difficult to find a willing ref. Between RPs, Tournaments, and up to 3 battles each, reffing becomes exponentially harder unless a new, good quality ref is picked up for at least one out of every 3 new battlers. Therefore in order to streamline the process, an apprenticeship program is outlined below:

    Reffing Levels: Head/Tutor Ref, Registered Ref, Apprentice Ref.

    Head/Tutor Refs: The job of a Head or Tutor Ref is to guide Apprentice refs through an apprenticeship program. There will be additional compensation for Tutor Refs as a function of helping Apprentice Refs.

    Registered Ref: This is any ref that has passed the apprenticeship program. Continuous active, high quality reffings will allow a Registered Ref to apply to become a Tutor Ref. The exact process by which this will be done will be decided at a later date.

    Apprentice Ref: This is a ref going through the apprenticeship program.

    Apprenticeship Program:

    The Apprenticeship program is very simple. It pairs a Tutor Ref with an Apprentice Ref. An Apprentice Ref takes on a battle in the Battle Tower thread, and maintains private message contact with the Tutor Ref.

    Before posting the thread original post and before each round, the Apprentice Ref sends a PM to the Tutor Ref to look over. The Tutor Ref makes notes about post formatting, calculations, and any field effects added in or other circumstances of the match. Once the notes are completed, the Tutor Ref PMs the notes back to the Apprentice Ref with the original reffing. The Apprentice ref makes any necessary adjustments, and then posts the round.

    An Apprentice Ref should make PMs to their tutor ref in the following format:

    Player A vs. Player B (Original Post) for the initial post.
    ex: Deck Knight vs. Flora (Original Post)

    Once the OP is looked over, the match title should be posted:

    Player A vs. Player B. (AR: <Assistant Ref>, TR: <Tutor Ref>)
    ex. Deck Knight vs. Flora (AR: 1337H0FFA, TR: Its_A_Random)

    The same process occurs for each round, using the following format for the PM:

    Player A vs. Player B (Round 1) for the round posting.
    ex: Deck Knight vs. Flora (Round 1)

    The round will be looked at and audited for calculations, effects, etc. and PMed back to the Apprentice Ref. The Tutor Ref will also be looking at things like consistency in effects over rounds, any creative elements that could be added/subtracted, and generally anything else that might be important.

    Implementation: Flora will be in control of the first slate of Tutor Refs. Once she determines who should be considered a Tutor, Registered, and an Apprentice, the Apprenticeship program will start.

    Tutor Rewards: A Tutor shall receive a reward equal to half the RC the match gives to the Apprentice Ref for that match.


    1) Substitute

    Let’s face it, right now Substitute is a ridiculously effective move. Since you’re able to set the amount of HP used, you can basically tailor-make Substitute to screw over your opponent. This makes it extremely powerful, and it’s an attack that every single Pokemon in the game gets (other than special cases like Wobbuffet).

    After talking to people on IRC, I settled on nerfing it down to a fixed 15 HP. This makes it sturdy enough to survive average STAB attacks- Pokemon with 8/9 BP STAB attacks will need 2/3 ranks of attack difference to break a sub, and Pokemon with a 10/11 BP STAB attack will need at least 1 rank of attack difference to break the sub. This gives Substitute more of a specialized use- you can use it to block status while giving a non-insignificant advantage (taunt blocks status, but it doesn’t give you the advantage of having a sub up), you can use it to give a buffer for charge moves like Focus Punch, and you can use it against Pokemon that lack a powerful STAB to break the substitute with. Substitute becomes a much more niche move, similar to how it is in-game, but still keeps it useful.

    2) Field Effect Duration

    As it stands, temporary field effect moves last for an absurd amount of time- 5 entire rounds to be exact. A single field effect move has a legitimate chance to last for the entire duration of the match, and with how powerful these field effects are, they simply last for too damn long. I propose reducing them to 6 actions. This would affect the following moves: Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Sunny Day, Hail, Trick Room, Gravity, Lucky Chant, Magic Room.

    3) CounterCoat and Metal Burst

    I recall that the consensus was largely that these moves DO need to be tweaked, but we weren’t able to decide exactly how. That should happen during this SotG.

    4) Bumping the battle cap up to 4

    Let’s face it, battles go a little slow, and 3 battles is too few. Bumping it up to 4 would probably be a good idea.

    Well, discuss away!
  2. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Just here to say I support #4. Especially given that raids also take up a slot.
  3. MK Ultra

    MK Ultra BOOGEYMAN
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    1) Never actually encountered it, but 15 seems a much better idea for the reasons you posted.

    2) 6 actions seems very small, but 5 rounds too much. A middle ground perhaps?

    3) I thought they'd already been tweaked o_O

    4) A thousand times yes. I also propose that no RP should take up a battle slot.
  4. TravelLog

    TravelLog

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    1)As for substitute, I think nerfing it to 15 is a bit too drastic. More reasonable would be a 15-20 range. Or set at 20. I'll edit in some greater reasoning later I think.

    2) As for field effects, I agree that they last too long, but I think 6 actions is far too few. I propose that they be set to either 9 or 10 actions, as otherwise they would require resetting every other round.

    3) I have no real opinion about these, as I haven't used them much

    4) I am all for bumping the battle cap up to 4, there is nothing more annoying than having three matches where nothing is happening because of either opponent or ref inactivity, and being stuck doing nothing. RPs should also never take a battle slot.
  5. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    I agree with iimkultra about #2. While I admit this gives Abomasnow and the like a bigger niche, it also seems to take a bit more work.

    How about three rounds? (also, what about Tailwind? It lasts less time, but something seems odd about Tailwind lasting longer than Rain Dance...)
  6. Son_of_Shadoo

    Son_of_Shadoo

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    I am VERY much in favour of 4, particularly given how slow some matches can drag on depending on ref availability.
  7. Pikapwnd

    Pikapwnd

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    Substitute: I'm fine with the nerf, it seems fair, haven't have a chance to use it brokenly, but just got a hitmonchan with it, and understand its broken from seeing it in use.

    Field Effect Duration: Ya, I've played a few TR teams and it nearly wrecked me. I'm thinking 3 rounds, This converts to 9 actionss in singles/doubles and 6 in triples where there more important.

    Counter/Coat/Burst: I'm thinking we go with atleast limiting them to one per round, maybe clarifying them as a non-attacking move and allowing them to be taunted. That last one is a definate grasp at the air, but limiting to one per round would be nice.

    Battle Cap: Maybe we should keep the battle cap at three and add two slots for roleplaying and raids. <--- due to gaining the same counters as well as in some cases getting better items, IE the battle hall, and also since roleplays are appearing alot more now.
  8. Gerard

    Gerard

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    #1. I had actually a pretty similar idea, if you calculate an attack (very easy to do if you are second) you get a free turn, even if they attack, i wanted to propose that you could only do a x5 sub (5/10/15/20 HP sub) with increased need of energy per "level", since this let's you stand a status, but hardly will stand a strong attack, setting it to 15 seems like a great idea (consider, any STABed neutral attack does about 13-15 damage so it can give you the free turn, but cannot give it reliably)

    #2. 15 actions vs 6 actions? wouldn't a middle point of about 10 actions (counting the one you set it) be better, you gain 3 effective rounds which seems a little bit fairer (would this reduce the cost of weather/TR/etc...)

    Completely agree with #4 since really most battles last about one/two weeks (sometimes more) and having to wait 3 weeks to evolve a single poke (considering it was in all your battles) and then do that every month to get him a nice movepool is really slow, an increase of 33% of speed wouldn't be that bad
  9. Objection

    Objection

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    One thing I would like to say right now is that, whenever an effect lasts X amount of rounds or updates every round, this confuses the hell out of me for one reason: the third action.

    Under the current system, if I use Rain Dance on the third action of round 1, does rain wear off at the end of round 5 or round 6? Does it depend on whether there were any moves after Rain Dance? And with Toxic, when does the toxic counter update? If it's the end of every round, then, once again, does using it on the third action of round 1 mean a 1 dpa or 2 dpa during round 2? Same with the paralysis status: if I use Thunder Wave on the third action of a round or especially as the very last move of a round, surely the paralysis chance should stay at 25% for the next round.

    Therefore, I propose the following: every effect that lasts X amount of rounds should be changed to last Y amount of actions (so Rain Dance would last 15 actions instead of 5 rounds (assuming that it doesn't get changed to 6 actions or whatever)) and every effect that updates every round should be changed to update every 3 actions. This also means that using paralysis moves and the like in triples is as efficient as using them in doubles.

    EDIT: Also there needs to be a lot more clarification regarding whether a move's timer/counter updates at the end of the action (like Yawn) as a whole or every time the user makes a move (like Reflect and Light Screen).
  10. Tortferngatr

    Tortferngatr

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    Raids are the exception, not the rule. RPing doesn't take up slots.
  11. Pikapwnd

    Pikapwnd

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    Maybe they should, I mean they often give the same rewards as the battle if not more.
  12. Terrador

    Terrador

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    Remember, Battle Hall takes a slot, too. RP's taking a slot may become more and more common as time passes; long story short, emphatic support of extension to 4 matches.
  13. Objection

    Objection

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    Battle Hall takes a slot even though Battle Subway doesn't?
  14. C$FP

    C$FP

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    Battle Hall doesn't take up a slot. I copied/pasted this from the Battle Hall signup thread: "The challenge will NOT take up one of the slots of the three consecutive battle limit. This means a trainer can enter even if they are already in three battles."
  15. Pikapwnd

    Pikapwnd

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    So ill reiterate, 3 battles and 2 roleplays maybe should be the cap. and add a completed/ongoing roleplays section to players profiles.
  16. Alchemator

    Alchemator my god if you don't have an iced tea for me when i
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    Hi, I'm pretty sure I get a place here since I'm filling in for Kaxtar.

    I support all of these, except the weather changes - I think that instead it should be 9 actions, or at least 7 (to account for the action spent using it). Preferably the first.

    If Counter etc are currently at 1.2*, then 1.1* will likely solve the problem.
  17. Objection

    Objection

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    At the moment Counter and Mirror Coat are 1.5x and Metal Burst is 1.25x
  18. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Photorealistic Seagull (PSG)
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    1. Substitute can be moved towards 15 and 20 HP options, but down to 15 alone is too low. It's already an energy hog for the most part. The current range is 15-25 HP.

    2. Field effects might be too high at 5 rounds, but 6 actions is too short for the effects. They are global effects and have such wide impacts and possibilities to backfire, as well as being cancelled out by other effects.

    I would consider reducing them from 5 rounds to 4 rounds.

    3. The problem with Counter and Mirror Coat is most likely refs still allowing substitutions like "if he uses physical/special attack, COUNTER/MIRROR COAT/METAL BURST."

    Now that priority has been added to the attack list, combination attacks are a way to circumvent Metal Burst, and Counter/Mirror Coat are obv. more powerful when going second but there's still a few attacks with lower priority.

    4. Battle Cap is fine at 3. The refs can only handle so many battles at once. We could add slots for tourneys/raids, but regular battles should be capped so refs do not become overburdened. We will always have a lot more players than refs.
  19. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Photorealistic Seagull (PSG)
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    Considering that as of DarkSlay's last update on the total members, we have 130, that means the increase in the cap will likely add 100 more battles to the queue (not everyone is active at all times). Until we get the reffing apprenticeship program in good shape and have a lot of spares, this is a lot of extra work.
  20. Objection

    Objection

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    Actually, I do think Substitute shouldn't have a range. It should always be the same amount of HP so that its damage reducing potential isn't completely abusable. Right now, substitutes can be very easily tailored to have just enough HP to survive an attack of the user's choice.
  21. Dogfish44

    Dogfish44 Banned from 22 Casinos
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    13 EN to deflect status and phenomenal amounts of damage overall (15 HP)? It's not a major energy hog.

    The ideal would be the 3 step system I proposed - Subs can be set to a flat 10 HP, 15 HP or 20 HP sub, with a scaling EN cost (Lower sub costs less EN per HP than a larger sub). 10 HP is breakable with most neutral stab / se non-stab hits, making it an easy status blocker. 15 is the most powerful sub tbh, able to withstand 1 solid attack, and then being on very low health. 20 HP can take 2 Heavy hits before vanishing, making it useful for blocking the strong/weak hit technique, and for draining more en in total.

    As a ref I'd be inclined to say from 5 rounds to 9 actions (3 Rounds). I've reffed a trick room match which would have had quite possibbly a different result. I don't see how they can backfire often - it would be a user mistake.

    If that happens, ban the ref. It. Doesn't. Happen.

    Yet it is still OP'ed. You can waste your sub move on them, sure, but then you're wide open to other things. You can't simply say "Use lower ptiority when going first" since not everything has a reliable source of lower priority. That, and double damage means a Machoke can Beat up an Emboar with no skill, despite obvious stat differences. I've already proposed a fairer alternative to the system, and that's to have them a variable base power move, but this seemed to be ignored last vote.

    1 slot for RP, 3 for Battles. I think if people are reffing more they should gain a 4th slot, but this could be abused. So 3 Slots + 1 RP slot - assumming not all RPs take a slot (Like the current system).
  22. Frosty

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    2 cents:

    1) 15 hp seems too little. Most decent powered attacks can reach that number without much trouble. I am all for 15-20. To be completely honest though I can't see how it is "ridiculously effective". Instead of attacking twice and being hit twice, you attack once and get hit once (aka lose the hp used to create the sub...which actually is 1hp more than one attack would deal). It seems like a fair trade for me. Either way, 15hp only makes it too weak, especially if we consider that the "ASB Metagame" is still attack-heavy.

    2) While I do agree that 5 rounds is way too much. 6 actions is almost nothing. A team focused on Trick Room or Tailwind, for example, will have only 3-4 actions to make it work per TR/TW, and 3-4 actions without any power boosts isn't enough even to defeat one not-so-good opponent. I believe 3-4 rounds seems like a better option.

    3) Actually I feel they are fine right now. Any other nerfs and there will be absolutely no point in using them. The Substitutions change and the nerf to x1.5 did the trick for me.

    In the other hand, Bide is ridiculously strong. Since most pokes will survive 2 turns of even the most cruel beating, it ends up being an unbeatable weapon for the player that goes last, since it still deals x2 damage and is affected by any kind of attack (forcing the player that goes first to just...not attack if he sees Bide on the opponent's movepool). I'd focus my efforts on nerfing that, TBH.

    4) I didn't understand the limitations to begin with, but Deck Knight does have a point. We already have quite some battles on the battle tower topic waiting for a ref. If we extend the limitation, that number will increase and we will either:
    a) figure out a manner to allocate refs in a way that all players have battles to play on (making the change useless) or
    b) Some players will get more battles reffed (for whatever reason) and others won't, which is kinda bad...I mean, treating everybody equally is nice and all.

    I would wait a bit until the tutoring project is in a good shape before increasing the number of battles.
  23. Athenodoros

    Athenodoros Official Smogon Know-It-All

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    I'd say Substitute is fine as it is. It is getting to the stage now, at least once they have a few battles under their belt, that Pokemon are confortably hitting each other for 20-25% because their movepools are so big. This means that 15 HP, at least, is useless, because very rarely will Pokemon be hit with such weak attacks, and it might as well be higher - say 15% to 25% of their HP. It doesn't need to change.

    As for field effects, 2 rounds is too short. Make it three rounds, rather than six actions, because then they don't become OP in Doubles/Triples but still are actually good in singles.

    CounterCoat and Metal Burst seem not to be used as much any more. They don't seem to be OP, because otherwise I think more people would use them. Leave them as they are until there is a problem.

    As for the Battle Cap, I agree with Deck. The refs can't take another 100 battles on at all times. Potentially just fiddle with how many RP things can be done and how they work as above.
  24. Acklow

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    1) Substitute

    Let’s face it, right now Substitute is a ridiculously effective move. Since you’re able to set the amount of HP used, you can basically tailor-make Substitute to screw over your opponent. This makes it extremely powerful, and it’s an attack that every single Pokemon in the game gets (other than special cases like Wobbuffet).

    Honestly, I think Substitute is decent as is. Otherwise I don't have much to comment here.

    2) Field Effect Duration

    As it stands, temporary field effect moves last for an absurd amount of time- 5 entire rounds to be exact. A single field effect move has a legitimate chance to last for the entire duration of the match, and with how powerful these field effects are, they simply last for too damn long. I propose reducing them to 6 actions. This would affect the following moves: Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Sunny Day, Hail, Trick Room, Gravity, Lucky Chant, Magic Room.

    I'm in agreement here that 5 rounds is long. 9-12 Actions worth of these field effects seem like what most people are agreeing on right now, so that should probably be the next vote.

    3) CounterCoat and Metal Burst

    I recall that the consensus was largely that these moves DO need to be tweaked, but we weren’t able to decide exactly how. That should happen during this SotG.

    I haven't run into too many problems with this move (other than that match that Alch is in, but in that case it backfired against him).

    4) Bumping the battle cap up to 4

    Let’s face it, battles go a little slow, and 3 battles is too few. Bumping it up to 4 would probably be a good idea.

    Yeah, I agree. Maybe even have it that there are 4 normal battles and 2 RP battles or w/e...
    That way people have more variety in normal battles, not to mention the ability to take part in RP battles.
  25. Gerard

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    Why not make CounterCoat/MB be only substitutable if you say the move that should be reflected?, that's what i think is fair, ex. use magic coat if he uses hydro pump, or use Counter if he uses wing attack, you actually "predicted" the attack and do it as your attack substitution, this makes the "use counter if he uses physical move" stuff useless, metal burst on the other hand could be maxed at one per match since it requires no prediction whatsoever
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