Data State of the Game - 8/7/2011

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@Damage Rounding on Substitutes:

What if all damages were calculated as exact decimals, but attacks that break Substitutes with damage to spare deal damage to the Pokemon behind the Substitute equal to [Normal damage done - (1.5*Remaining health of Substitute before the attack hit)]? For example, if Pokemon A uses an attack on Pokemon B's 15 HP Substitute that would normally do 25.5 damage, Pokemon B's Substitute breaks and Pokemon B takes [25.5-(1.5*15)]= 3 damage. This lets Substitute retain its status-blocking and damage-reducing properties while preventing almost-Substitute-breaking moves from completely ruining the attacking Pokemon's next action and allowing the damage measurement to be standardized.
 
I would like to make one final post and apology. I'm sorry I started the entire dodge thing. But to clarify my stance, I was not asking for any more options to be added, simply for a fast Pokemon with a speed neutral nature to have a chance to abuse it's speed. I didn't propose adding another option in the same breath I said "boost dodge." I can fully understand disagreement with my first proposal, but I believe the second was misinterpreted. I simply came up with a formula (or three) that I thought represented anime dodge rates to an extent, while still keeping dodge as far worse than Protect.

However, I fully understand the work put into the dodge command and understand completely if no change occurs. With that, I'm out for a few weeks,


And please, no one take this post as an excuse to continue this useless dodge debate. It's done when Deck says he's done (he has), but I just wanted to clarify my position that I believe may have been misunderstood.


As for rounding: I support SDS' idea.
 
Actually yes, yes it does mean we should "stop there" when we have exhausted every single evasive move in the game, plus adding a few based on their Anime counterparts.
So there is disagreement.

Dodging is not and never has been "important" to the extent you are making it out to be. You want the Dodge Command to have an effect it presently does not for no reason other than you, personally don't find it rational. You don't think it complies with what you think the anime does with dodging, when you yourself submit you could not come up with a rate for it.
...We do not find it rational, and we think that it is useless and needs a buff. How is that an invalid reason? We don't want it to be anime-level power necessarily, but we dislike the fact you've made it virtually useless.

I didn't say evasion was powerful, I said it was dangerous. As in it is dangerous to make a universal way to evade attacks that is consistently as good as attacks designed canonically for that purpose.
Consistently? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

The issue is that we consider Dodge to be TOO inconsistent to ever merit usage-when you're usually getting at most a 10% chance to evade the opponent extra, it doesn't become worth spending the five energy. Just because it's universal doesn't mean we can't make it at least a mediocre command.

I'll want a link for that, since the only way a +Spe nature would result in a 6 point evasion drop is if you were a very slow Pokemon dodging a Pokemon with 5 less Base Speed. If you believe a 6 point drop in such a scenario is unbearably low, you aren't operating in good faith.
...No idea. Keep in mind that when Accelgor lacks the ability to move out of the way of a Ferrothorn's attacks easily, something is wrong.

I am not buffing the Dodge Command because you found it insufficiently useful against a foe that by all rights you should not have a good chance of dodging just by ordering "Dodge".
...So...what if it's a Weedle trying to evade a Dragonite? By all rights the Weedle should have an easy time hiding behind something, yet its evasive attempts only increase its evasion.

The entire point of Dodge is that it is a Command, meaning universal, meaning weaker than Attacks. This is a feature, not a bug. If there is ever any attack (or a command in this case ffs) that is powerful enough that its alternatives need not be taken into account, that attack (or command) is by definition overpowered. Dodge is a speed based evasive command with a low energy cost. If you want an evasive action that is more reliable but costs higher energy, you have both Protect and Double Team.
Wouldn't being underpowered, therefore, be lacking the power to be considered over its alternatives by competent battlers? We're okay with a dodge that is weaker than using Protect or Double Team, we just don't want a batshit useless dodge.

The formula specifically states it uses your speed and the opponent's speed. The +Spe nature bonus is a benefit given in exchange for a lower offensive or defensive stat.
I'm okay with the +speed boost to dodge, although honestly I think the accuracy is the main reason people use those natures.

tl;dr

Dodge Command isn't changing. It is balanced precisely the way I want it to be and I spent a good amount of time developing it.
I still desire to change your mind.
 
Just to toss an idea, why not make the Dodge command a restricted one that will work?, limited in the way that you decide 1-2 dodges max just like with recoveries/chills, that way you decide when to use it and you choose where you want to waist it, retaining the one action need and mybe increasing the cost (and putting resstrictions like it can't avoid surf and stuff like that), it would work 100% (or maybe not so much depending on speed) but you can use it once or twice according to the person who toss the challenge

OK, the real reason of my post, is that levitate, even in it's actual state is a real dissadventage to many pokemon in their final state (with good movepools, all abilitites, etc...), in that they win nothing really against most gound attacks with dig and mud shot being really common, I suggest that levitate, in adition to making you inmune to actual sismic damage, it lets you ressist ground attacks, so that way, the attacks that DO HIT, are less powerful that they would if you were on earth, so something like Mismagius would be ressistant to earth power and dig, flavor-wise it's not really crazy because since they are far from the ground, they can "avoid" the attack a little bit before it strikes, making it less powerful than the full hit attack, it would help some pokes that aren't really seen
 

Frosty

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You know, this dodge debate is getting ridiculous in so many levels.

But before I go back to my reffings, I'd like to contribute with my 1.5 cent:

Dodge is fine as it is
You already have Protect, Detect, Double Team, Agility, Mimimize, and Dodge Command
Therefore I have sought to codify it in a manner that greatly favors fast Pokemon using speed boosting natures that have speed boosting attacks, and alternatively reverse such an advantage under Trick Room, though usually to a lesser extent.
If you want an evasive action that is more reliable but costs higher energy, you have both Protect and Double Team.
It is balanced precisely the way I want it to be
Don't fool yourself pretending that the Dodge has use, space, balance or purpose. It isn't viable and can't be included on serious list of moves that accomplish anything. It isn't "fine", "balanced" or anything like that, as you have to accomplish something before being anything other than "non-existant".

In other words, looking at a balance Point of View, Dodge has 0 use. Simple as that. As you said yourself, the Dodge Command will only be remotely useful if you use speed boosting natures with speed boosting moves and it is still much worse than Double Team. To give you an example: A Timid Accelgor using a combo of Agility + Dodge against a Munchlax has 80% evasion for 18 energy and a cooldown turn. Any pokemon against any other has the same evasion for 16 energy, with the added bonus of keeping the clones with no cooldown turn. Hell, Agility alone evades most moves that matter for 7 energy. And that was a ridiculous example. In all normal cases, Dodge has no use at all. There is always a better move to use. Better in terms of effectiveness and energy (fun fact: Double Team - 1 clone is cheaper and always more effective, except on ridiculous situations).

"But that is the intention"

If that is the case than I must question your choice of creating a move that accomplishes nothing (other than confusing newcomers). You obviously don't care about flavor, so why bother? Just explode the dodge command and get over with it. The only reason it exists is for flavor and you can always just codify that "Dodge should be read as protect, if the pokemon doesn't have protect on its movepool, you should warn the player and ask for new orders". At least you remove the sole use of Dodge (from a balance point of view, always, as it seems to be your cup of tea): making unwarned players screw up.

tl;dr: Dodge has no reason to exist. Explode it.
 

Deck Knight

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I am not exploding anything, well, not quite.

This is not a democracy, and none of you are swaying my one bit.

From this point on, discussion of evasion is banned, immutably and forever. When I said I hate evasion, I hate it primarily for this reason: Every SotG, without fail, people want to tinker with it. They want evasive priority attacks, they want buffs to the dodge command, they want even fast-sounding attacks to have some evasive property to them. It is a nuisance I am no longer willing to entertain, because invariably it leads to people questioning my balance decisions who either a) don't research the options related to the proposal and / or b) complain that it is not powerful enough without offering any alternatives.

Any more discussion on this will result in a warning. I am dead serious.

This place is not run by committee. I am no longer going to entertain sleights against a command that was never designed to replace Protect or Double Team. If you cannot bring yourself to realize that I do not want the ASB to have a cheap, immediate way to universally dodge attacks outside of the canonical moves that do so, then there cannot be a valid discussion.

Illustration:
A 50 point Speed difference gives you a 10% dodge
A 100 point Speed difference gives you a 20% dodge
A 125 point Speed difference gives you a 25% dodge (incidentally this is the speed difference between Accelgor and Ferrothorn if neither changes their nature)
A 165 point Speed difference gives you a 33% dodge
A 250 point Speed difference gives you a 50% dodge

All of this is without considering a +Spe nature. Which I remind you the Dodge command was originally implemented to synergize with. Base 100s get a 15% Acc boost and thus a 15% base dodge. If they are 50 points faster than an opponent, there's a 25% Dodge right there.

How do you get these numbers? The first is entirely possible, the rest require speed boosts of some kind. Considering that +6 quadruples your speed, An 80 Base Spe Pokemon could theoretically get a 41% Dodge against a +Spe 100 Base Spe mon with no boosts. Impractical? Maybe, but that's only if you look at the formula from your side.

You could be smart and lower your opponent's speed with paralysis. But I guess with Dodge being too weak for it to be considered rather than whined about, no one ever thought of exploiting that.

A 100 Base SPe + Spe Mon vs. the same opponent after paralyzing the foe and getting to +2 Spe: 230 vs 28. A 202 point difference, resulting in a 55% dodge after 2 actions of work. If the first mon's Speed is only at +1, its a 44% dodge. This is not some impossible task, and again remember the dodge command deducts from Base Accuracy, meaning against Stone Edge the base accuracy would be reduced to 36 (51 on the aforementioned 100 Base Spe +Spe mon using it). All for 5EN, and unlike Double Team it has priority and can dodge any attack with an accuracy check. In fact, it has more priority that Agility and covers more attacks. But you actually have to expend the effort to make it useful. Given the total ubiquity of paralysis moves, be they percentage based like Body Slam or TMs like Thunder Wave, as well as the general availability of Rock Polish, Agility, and now Autotomize, I again see no reason to complain about Dodge save an unwillingness to use its mechanics.

Now you might say your opponent can paralyze you as well. Except of course, this discussion is about fast Pokemon and fast Pokemon have fast Substitutes to block most of that, or fast Taunts if the paralyzing move in question doesn't do damage.

Lack of creativity is no excuse for questioning my judgement, and as I said above, I'm no longer entertaining this kind of whining.

Evasion is a dead issue. Dodge is not going anywhere, and all future SotG's the Evasion issue is explicitly prohibited from discussion.
 
1. Should something be done about Perish Song in Switch = KO style battles?


2. Should the move “Endure” be changed?


3. Should Pokemon be allowed to use moves of higher energy cost when low on energy?


4. Should non-attacking moves be permitted usage when a Pokemon is under the effect of Taunt?


EDIT: The source of this issue: "If a disabled or otherwise disallowed move is ordered, such as a non-attacking move when Taunted, the move costs energy as normal because the Pokemon still exerts the energy trying to use it unsuccessfully."
1. I don't think Perish Song needs any change. Now that people are more aware of it, there'll be more preparation for it. And since you don't have to sacrifice anything to prepare a pokemon (hooray no 4-moveslot-syndrome!), I don't see this being a big issue by the next SotG.

2. I'll skip any judgment on this, no experience with it.

3. Everyone's already suggested a good idea about this.

4. Allow the order, Just don't let it work. I've been in arenas where certain moves weren't allowed, and I accidentally ordered one of those moves. I wasted time and energy, and got nothing in return. That's exactly how I handle people ordering non-attacks when Taunted. Not sure what the issue is, here. I also don't allow chills when Taunted, since that isn't attacking.
 
The issue is it breaks sucker punch, countercoat, and metal burst - which are often times the strongest attack a pokemon can use against a foe. To take advantage of this, they can order Taunt-Sucker Punch-Metal Burst, but the foe can simply evade all damage by ordering cheap non-attacking moves, like stab defense curl or something.

It should be similar to ingame, where you must reorder if you use a non-attacking move while taunted.
 
I fail to see how using an attack vs not doing anything is an unfavorable situation, even when you have the offensive stats of shuckle you should be able to do more damage than 0, and they are either waisting energy or waisting chills, so it's not like they are really getting out for free
 
Wait, in which situation are we talking here? Do you want to force struggle only when someone orders a non damaging attack knowing full well they will be taunted at the time, or also when someone who acts first in a battle is then taunted by the person moving second.

It seems a little unfair to enforce the Struggle recoil in the second case, although it would often also result in a smaller energy penalty than the failed move (not a lot of non-damaging, useful moves are less than 5 en)
 
^^
Agree, if the second person forgot (or just tough that the taunt chance was the least of two [or somethimes ten] evils), then you should be forced to damage yourself (also i've seen cases were you're taunted and then encored, making it all the more effective), making the pokemon struggle in that case seems unfair and something could be easily explotable

PS: actually, is there any instance in that you actually struggle here by now?
 

Deck Knight

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The easiest proposal is the following:

A completely blocked attack is replaced with Struggle

If a move would completely fail due to Taunt, Heal Block on a healing move, Disable, etc. that Pokemon is forced to use Struggle that action instead of doing nothing or expending the energy for the failed move.

Still looking for feedback on this as well:

Priority blocking:

I have considered at length the use of priority moves as evasive and don't like it, however I have of late been thinking of a viable way to block for another Pokemon. Essentially what it would be is a combination of a priority move and BodyBlock that specifies an opposing target and a mon to protect for. The Pokemon then Bodyblocks for the initial action and the cool down phase. The priority attack would not suffer from halved Base Attack Power as it is the primary move in the combination. (E.g. Aqua Jet + Bodyblock [Opponent A] for [Ally Y])
 
Priority blocking:

I have considered at length the use of priority moves as evasive and don't like it, however I have of late been thinking of a viable way to block for another Pokemon. Essentially what it would be is a combination of a priority move and BodyBlock that specifies an opposing target and a mon to protect for. The Pokemon then Bodyblocks for the initial action and the cool down phase. The priority attack would not suffer from halved Base Attack Power as it is the primary move in the combination. (E.g. Aqua Jet + Bodyblock [Opponent A] for [Ally Y])
Whould this work as a Combo (making you rest afterward) since then I think is too costy, i actually already tought about it (something like lucario bloking a crunch against reuniclus using ES) and it's great, but unlike combos where you can do obsene amounts of damage, here you don't really attack (sacrificing one of your attacks for one of your opponents) this would be awesome in doubles, and is fair without the resting turn since you bodyblock for one action (what i think should happen), if then bodyblock is for the rest of the round (like the actual bodyblock command) then I could see the rest being necesary, but the complete result would be worst than the one turn block (which works like a worst follow me/anger powder)
 

jas61292

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Struggling certainly makes sense, but I personally feel that this should not apply during the round that Taunt or similar move is used, or else it would effectively allow Taunt to be used to damage the opponent if they use a status move that round.

In the games, when a Pokemon uses a status move but is Taunted before the move is executed, then the Pokemon fails to move. This is different than when orders are made after Taunting, at which point ordering status moves becomes impossible.

While we have no way to prevent someone from ordering a move like the games do, I think it would make sense to still distinguish between the two scenarios. As such, I believe the best way of doing it is to say that if a Pokemon is ordered to do a status move but is Taunted before it can use it, then the action fails, but if the Pokemon is ordered to use a status move after it is already Taunted, then it should be forced to Struggle.
 

Deck Knight

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Whould this work as a Combo (making you rest afterward) since then I think is too costy, i actually already tought about it (something like lucario bloking a crunch against reuniclus using ES) and it's great, but unlike combos where you can do obsene amounts of damage, here you don't really attack (sacrificing one of your attacks for one of your opponents) this would be awesome in doubles, and is fair without the resting turn since you bodyblock for one action (what i think should happen), if then bodyblock is for the rest of the round (like the actual bodyblock command) then I could see the rest being necesary, but the complete result would be worst than the one turn block (which works like a worst follow me/anger powder)
Essentially what it does it allows you to Bodyblock an ally for two consecutive actions (the initial and the combination cool down), and have +1 priority on the first action (plus do minor damage). Since Bodyblocked attacks use the Bodyblocking Pokemon's type and defenses, essentially you can use your resistances to allow your ally a chance to set up for two actions unscathed. Sucker Punch and Extremespeed would be particularly effective as you'd still do decent damage the first action and you'd absorb the blows. Feint + Bodyblock would even break an opponent's Protect. Essentially it'd be like attack one action and Bodyblocking both actions. Which would constitute a round in Triples Battles, but not Singles or Doubles.
 
On the topic of bodyblock+priority combos, is Protect Self+bodyblock ally allowed for basically absorbing all damage against both pokemon with boosted priority? Although I would love it, it seems incredibly overpowered.
 

Deck Knight

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On the topic of bodyblock+priority combos, is Protect Self+bodyblock ally allowed for basically absorbing all damage against both pokemon with boosted priority? Although I would love it, it seems incredibly overpowered.
It'd work, but considering it'd multiply all the energy you'd lose from taking hits, it would cost you a boatload of Energy. Startup cost alone is 18 Energy, and then if you blocked 20 Damage you'd eat another 10 Energy. Considering Protect would also block all attacks, even though spread ones would still hit an ally, you could end up blowing over a third of your energy for one combo that didn't deal any damage.

Also I am thinking about implementing size class for dodge. Evasion discussion in general is still banned, but I'm going to try a few test cases on select Pokemon and see how I like it.

Dodge: The Pokemon uses its innate speed and evasiveness to dodge an opponent's attack. Dodge reduces an incoming attack’s accuracy by (User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) / 5. In Trick Room, the effect is reversed; an incoming attack’s accuracy is reduced by ((User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) * -1) / 5. The accuracy boost from a +Spe nature is added directly to the Dodge command's accuracy reduction (e.g. +20 accuracy will result in dodge adding +20 to its oncoming accuracy reduction.). If a move's accuracy would be increased by the Dodge command, the Dodge command instead simply fails and the move has normal accuracy.

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 4 | CT: None


So Size Class, I figure that it should factor in before the actual speed, since it speaks to something more innate. I'll pick a quick mon from each class (and a Caterpie to start for kicks):

Class 1: Caterpie, Diglett (Baseline: Less than 2 ft)
Class 2: Weavile (Baseline: 2-3.9 ft)
Class 3: Sceptile (Baseline: 4-6.5 ft humanoid. 10-14, ft serpentine)
Class 4: Raikou (Baseline: 6.6-7.9ft+ humanoid, 5-7 ft quadrupedal, 15-18 ft serpentine)
Class 5: Arceus (Baseline: 8-12ft+ humanoid/avian/quadrupedal, 19-20ft serpentine)
Class 6: Lugia (Baseline: 12-20+ humanoid/avian/quadrupedal, 21-28ft serpentine)
Class 7: Wailord (Baseline: 20+ ft humanoid/avian/quadrupedal, 29+ serpentine)

Dodge = (30/Class Size) + ((User’s Speed - Opponent’s Speed) / 5)

Selected Opponent: 100 Base Spe (no nature)

Caterpie (no nature): Dodge = (30/1 = 30) + ((45 - 100 = -55) / 5 = -11) = 19 Dodge
Caterpie (+Spe): Dodge = (30/1 = 30) + ((52 - 100 = -48) /5 = -9.6) + 9 (Acc Boost) = 29.4 (29) Dodge

Diglett (no nature): Dodge = (30/1 = 30) +(( 95 - 100 = -5) / 5 = -1) = 29 Dodge
Diglett (+Spe): Dodge = (30/1 = 30) + ((110 - 100 = 10) /5 = 2 ) + 28 (Acc Boost) = 60 Dodge

Weavile (no nature): Dodge = (30/2 = 15) + ((125 - 100 = 25) / 5 = 5) = 20 Dodge
Weavile (+Spe): Dodge = (30/2 = 15) + (144 - 100 = 44) / 5 = 8.6) + 24 (Acc Boost) = 47.6 (48) Dodge

Sceptile (no nature): Dodge = (30/3 = 10) + (120 - 100 = 20) / 5 = 4) = 14 Dodge
Sceptile (+Spe): Dodge = (30/3 = 10) + (138 - 100 = 38) / 5 = 7.6) + 22 (Acc Boost) = 39.6 (40) Dodge

Raikou (no nature): Dodge = (30/4 = 7.5) + (115 - 100 = 15) / 5 = 3) = 10.5 (11) Dodge
Raikou (+Spe): Dodge = (30/4 = 7.5) + (133 -100 = 33) /5 = 6.6) + 20 (Acc Boost) = 34.1 (34) Dodge

Arceus (no nature): Dodge = (30/5 = 6) + (120 - 100 = 20) / 5 = 4) = 10 Dodge
Arceus (+Spe): Dodge = (30/5 = 6) + (138 - 100 = 38) / 5 = 7.6) + 22 (Acc Boost) = 35.6 (36) Dodge

Lugia (no nature): Dodge = (30/6 = 5) + (110 - 100 = 10) / 5 = 2) = 7 Dodge
Lugia (+Spe): Dodge = (30/6 = 5) + (127 - 100 = 27) / 5 = 5.4) + 19 (Acc Boost) = 29.4 (29) Dodge

Wailord (no nature): Dodge = (30/7 = 4.28) + ((60 - 100 = -40) / 5 = -8) Dodge Fails.
Wailord (+Spe): Dodge = (30/7 =4.28) + ((69 - 100 = -31) / 5 = -6.1) + 5 (Acc Boost) = 3.18 (3) Dodge

Effectively what Size Class does is create a base dodge rate which the formula then adds or subtracts to. Thus where Dodge failed completely before it may actually be effective, especially among NFE Pokemon, most of whom are significantly smaller than their FE counterparts. The base dodge is 30/Size Class.

While again, I don't want to turn this into an evasion shitfest, I will allow critique of this particular proposal as it results to balancing NFEs against their larger, more powerful counterparts. In theory, I could also add Size Class as an element of weight based attacks or full body attacks, but I don't really want to go down that road. Weight =/= Size. See: Aron being heavy as hell, but still being Size Class 1.

EDIT: Still, adding it as a factor to Heat Crash and Heavy Slam actually does give ever so slight advantages to Pokemon that need some distinguishing, so I'll probably add it.

Now Working on:

Size Class listing:
Bulbasaur: 1
Ivysaur: 2
Venusaur : 4
Charmander: 1
Charmeleon: 2
Charizard : 3
Squirtle: 1
Wartortle: 2
Blastoise: 3
Caterpie: 1
Metapod: 1
Butterfree: 2
Weedle: 1
Kakuna: 1
Beedrill: 2
Pidgey: 1
Pidgeotto: 2
Pidgeot: 3
Rattata: 1
Raticate: 2
Spearow: 1
Fearow: 2
Ekans: 2
Arbok: 3
Pichu: 1
Pikachu: 1
Raichu: 2
Sandshrew: 1
Sandslash: 2
Nidoran F: 1
Nidorina: 2
Nidoqueen: 3
Nidoran M: 1
Nidorino: 2
Nidoking: 3
Cleffa: 1
Clefairy: 1
Clefable: 3
Vulpix: 1
Ninetales: 3
Igglybuff: 1
Jigglypuff: 1
Wigglytuff: 2
Zubat: 1
Golbat: 3
Crobat: 3
Oddish: 1
Gloom: 2
Vileplume: 3
Bellossom: 1
Paras: 1
Parasect: 2
Venonat: 2
Venomoth: 3
Diglett: 1
Dugtrio: 2
Meowth: 1
Persian: 2
Psyduck: 2
Golduck: 3
Mankey: 1
Primeape: 2
Growlithe: 2
Arcanine: 4
Poliwag: 1
Poliwhirl: 2
Poliwrath: 3
Politoed: 2
Abra: 2
Kadabra: 3
Alakazam: 3
Machop: 2
Machoke: 3
Machamp: 3
Bellsprout: 2
Weepinbell: 2
Victreebel: 3
Tentacool: 2
Tentacruel: 3
Geodude: 1
Graveler: 2
Golem: 4
Ponyta: 2
Rapidash: 3
Slowpoke: 2
Slowbro: 3
Slowking: 3
Magnemite: 1
Magneton: 2
Magnezone: 3
Farfetch'd: 2
Doduo: 3
Dodrio: 3
Seel: 2
Dewgong: 3
Grimer: 2
Muk: 3
Shellder: 1
Cloyster: 3
Gastly: 3
Haunter: 3
Gengar: 3
Onix: 6
Steelix: 7
Drowzee: 2
Hypno: 3
Krabby: 1
Kingler: 3
Voltorb: 2
Electrode: 3
Exeggcute: 1
Exeggutor: 3
Cubone: 1
Marowak: 2
Tyrogue: 2
Hitmonlee: 3
Hitmonchan: 3
Hitmontop: 3
Lickitung: 3
Lickilicky: 3
Koffing: 1
Weezing: 2
Rhyhorn: 3
Rhydon: 3
Rhyperior: 4
Happiny: 1
Chansey: 2
Blissey: 3
Tangela: 2
Tangrowth: 4
Kangaskhan: 4
Horsea: 2
Seadra: 2
Kingdra: 3
Goldeen: 1
Seaking: 2
Staryu: 2
Starmie: 2
Mime Jr.: 1
Mr. Mime: 2
Scyther: 3
Scizor: 3
Smoochum: 1
Jynx: 3
Elekid: 1
Electabuzz: 2
Electivire: 3
Magby: 1
Magmar: 2
Magmortar: 3
Pinsir: 3
Tauros: 3
Magikarp: 2
Gyarados: 6
Lapras: 5
Ditto: 1
Eevee: 1
Vaporeon: 2
Jolteon: 2
Flareon: 2
Espeon: 2
Umbreon: 2
Leafeon: 2
Glaceon: 2
Porygon: 2
Porygon2: 1
Porygon-Z: 2
Omanyte: 1
Omastar: 2
Kabuto: 1
Kabutops: 2
Aerodactyl: 3
Munchlax: 2
Snorlax: 4
Articuno: 3
Zapdos: 3
Moltres: 3
Dratini: 2
Dragonair: 3
Dragonite: 4
Mewtwo: 3
Mew: 1


Pokemon
Chikorita
Bayleef
Meganium
Cyndaquil
Quilava
Typhlosion
Totodile
Croconaw
Feraligatr
Sentret
Furret
Hoothoot
Noctowl
Ledyba
Ledian
Spinarak
Ariados
Chinchou
Lanturn
Togepi
Togetic
Togekiss
Natu
Xatu
Mareep
Flaaffy
Ampharos
Azurill
Marill
Azumarill
Bonsly
Sudowoodo
Hoppip
Skiploom
Jumpluff
Aipom
Ambipom
Sunkern
Sunflora
Yanma
Yanmega
Wooper
Quagsire
Murkrow
Honchkrow
Misdreavus
Mismagius
Unown
Wynaut
Wobbuffet
Girafarig
Pineco
Forretress
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Now that you mention it, I'd like to see wight classes as a separate thing. Low Kick and grass knot all already dependant on "classes" of a sort but I'd like to see that extended to heavy bomber etc for simplicity's sake. Obviously there would have to be some slight adjustments to the formula.
A further benefit is that the weight class would be part of the stats on a Pokemon's profile or in alist in the adit thread, meaning we don't have to leave CAPASB for our pokedex of choice just because someone orders one of the weight dependant moves.

I suppose I should make a more specific proposal to help things along:
(wieghts in kilos* because nicer numbers, reference: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Weight)
Class 1: <10kg
Class 2: >10kg, <25kg
Class 3: >25kg, <50kg
Class 4: >50kg, <100kg
Class 5: >100kg, <200kg
Class 6: >200kg, <300kg
Class 7: >300kg, <400kg
Class 8: >400kg

Low Kick and Grass Knot, rather than having a list of potential powers could just be "2x[Target's Weight Class] (Max 12)", and under this system this will NEVER change the damage output of these moves compared to the current system. (unless I fucked up somehow...)

Heavy Bomber and Heat Crash could possibly be left as is (albeit simplified) but personally I'd prefer to see something more like "2x[User's Weight Class-Target's Weight Class] (Max 12)". Obviously this skews the damage output of these moves a fair bit. I may look into it a little bit more, but I suspect it would make them more stronger on average, which is something I'd like to see since it'll make them more viable. Alternatively we could just make it a reverse Low Kick like it should be...(ie, "2x[User's Weight Class] (Max 12)")

Thoughts?

*Side note, but looking at the values of weights and heights of Pokemon I'm convinced they are based on the metric system; their metric sizes have much rounder numbers and cleaner increment amounts.

edit: Oh yeah, Gerard mentioned Levitate earlier, and I agree it seems very underwhelming. As if it wasn't bad enough that most Levitators only get one ability - an ability that can already be emulated through other attacks and commands by other Pokemon, and can easily be negated by other moves - it doesn't even allow them such simple pleasures as avoiding Mud Slap or Bonemerang. Sure, I can see flavourful reasons for Bonemerang and Mud Shot being able to hit them but it seems unfair to me. Levitators really have the short stick here.
So let me just summarise:
- Avoids only 5 ground moves of 16 (excluded Mud Sport...)
- Levitators rarely have other abilities, meanwhile many Pokemon with two or three abilties can Levitate without it
- Negated by Gravity, Smack Down and the odd Mold Breaker
So yeah, I say give Levitators some more evasion against Ground Moves, or at least Gerard's proposal of giving them a resistance.

Worth noting: I run Marowak, my bias is not based entirely on my team usage.
Also, inb4 "BUT GENGRA IS BROKEN ENUFF ALREDDY"
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
On Levitate: It advoids the most powerful ground moves, It functions even when abilities are off, or if you do have 2 different abilities including levitate, you then can hvae 2 abilities in a 1 ability match. Being negated by Gravity/Smack down must remain - it's the whole POINT of those movesx to deal with flying types/levitators. Levitate is a free immunity to a fair share of moves, no need to change it.
 
Being negated by Gravity/Smack down must remain - it's the whole POINT of those movesx to deal with flying types/levitators.
Of course, I'm not saying to change that. I'm just saying with this and many other factors taken into account, Levitators have a bit of a dud deal.
 
Huzzah, somewhat random hiatus is over, I found where ASB moved, life can continue as scheduled. And before I go do my Prize Claim post for the aftermath of said hiatus, I'll weigh in on what's been going around.

1. Should something be done about Perish Song in Switch = KO style battles?

I believe the best thing to do here is make it so that the Pokemon using it has to survive. Cutting a battle down to essentially the next two rounds of actions just because your lead was better than the opponents (especially if they sent out first) sounds pretty ludicrous no matter how you slice it. Sure, there's Taunt/U-Turn/Volt Switch, but then you get to the issue of speed, and a fair amount of Pokemon simply do not have the movepool options WITH the speed to make it something you can reasonably expected to prepare for on any given combination of Pokemon you may have with you at the time. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in detail is order; if you had a counter to Perish Song, but you have to choose first, you're stuck between losing it in battle first and having to eat PS on entry with your non-countering Pokemon, or, it fundamentally forces you into the order of PS vulnerable first, counter second, regardless of other matchup based factors.

tl;dr, if the user has to live to use it, it no longer ends battles without having to fight more than the first Pokemon on a team, win, and PS.

2. Should the move “Endure” be changed?

Unlike what seems like many of the comments on here thus far, I've actually messed around with Endure. And, while the move is powerful, possibly game-altering, reducing the effective duration should not be the issue. Right now, the main issue is energy, and the fact you become Jesus for two actions after use regardless of prior injury, so long as you can throw out the Endure. Simply making it so you can't have burned up all of your energy during usage, and if that fails, raising the energy cost so it requires more thought than "Endure before dying, net two actions of immortality" at the end of a battle, and it should balance out quite nicely. I also saw Gerard mention that you could potentially heal during the Endure and live an extra long time by abusing this. To correct this, I propose that we make it so you can't heal during Endure. You're supposed to be fighting on burning spirit alone while you use it, not getting a healing factor.

tl;dr: Everything gets Toxic, fix the energy faint immunity to balance it, not turn reduction. If symptoms persist, raise energy cost. If Endure starts being used as a healing factor, make it so you can't gain health while under Endure.

3. Should Pokemon be allowed to use moves of higher energy cost when low on energy?

As broken as it sounds, what, honestly, is one action at full strength, regardless of lack of energy, going to do in most cases. Sure, you might take apart a bit more health, you may even get that KO, but you're dead all the same in the end. If this is an issue of potential double KOs, give the win to the player who was attacked, essentially codifying energy exhaustion under a typical Self-KO related win for the one who didn't pass out trying to be flashy before keeling over.

4. Should non-attacking moves be permitted usage when a Pokemon is under the effect of Taunt?

Force Struggle sounds alright. No super long answer here. The damage from a Struggle is paltry anyway, for the most part, and you do a bit of damage as a trade-off.

5. The ASB Gym League preparations have begun! Thanks RP’s!

Huzzah, let me get my Galvantula running and we're in business.

6. The Size and Weight Classes

This sounds like a pretty excellent idea, in my opinion, since it'll mean having data for Weight based moves on-hand, and also will provide an advantage to smaller Pokemon in terms of evasion. In doing this, "Dodge it!!!" won't be as much of a trap new players fall into (1% Evasion boosts are silly), while simultaneously not being overly centralizing. One thing I'd like to add, if it hasn't already been mentioned, is the fact this makes sense for the Bodyblock command as well. Caterpie is not likely going to absorb a whole attack aimed at a Steelix any time soon be jumping in the way. This could potentially be implemented in the Bodyblock command, requiring the same or higher Size Class to Bodyblock for an ally. This diversifies small Pokemon from large; large are better at absorbing hits for their teammates, while smaller Pokemon are more adept at using strictly evasive action. Whether or not this is worthy of discussion/implementation is something up for debate.

7. Priority Bodyblock/Protect Bodyblock

I think these, as well, would promote a less attackattackattack format and encourage good teambuilding, so I'm all for both of these. Protect+Bodyblock costs crazy energy, but could allow interesting strategies to emerge, from an emphasis on set-up to Energy Stall preparations, and Priority Bodyblock (in potential combination with the discussion in my answer to 6) promotes team synergy.
 
On Endure: What if it prevented you from losing all HP or energy until the end of the round, BUT it applied energy and HP loss as normal at the end of the round? Basically, it gives you two actions (or one, if you use it on the second) to do whatever, but you still suffer the consequences at the end of the round, effectively giving you a caffeine rush followed by a crash.
 
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