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Also, that still let you deal the enormous damage of a combo attack suffering minimal conseuences (yes, fainting is minimal when you deal big damage and would faint anyway)
In the levitate part, it's not like all will get a ressistance:
Rotom-H becomes 2x week to ground attacks (that hit)
Gengar, Rotom (Normal, -F, -H, -W), Lunatone, etc... become neutral to ground attacks (that hit)
Misdreavus, Claydol, Chimecho, Rotom-C, etc... become 2x ressistant to ground attacks (that hit)
Carnivine, Illumise, Volbeat, etc... become 4x ressistant to ground attacks (that hit)
This is applies to the mons that have levitate (trait) and levitate by command, but it could be applied to pokemon with magnet rise (altough just for cyclohm i'm pretty sure this won't be the case)
I think lowering its priority to -1 will fix most of the issues with it, as it expands the list of blockers to every mon with Taunt or Encore. That seems to be the consensus, since Perish Song is really the only way some Pokemon can distinguish themselves, and most of them are lower anyway.
RE: Levitate
Levitate evades all the Ground-type TMs and weakens the tutor (bar Mud-Slap which is eh). I have considered possibly doing a revamp of abilities since I kind of invented them for the 4th Gen CAPs, but it would make the game a much further stretch canonically.
An example for Levitators that get ASB Abilities would be something like (these are not the decided abilities but would be at the top of my mind):
As these seem to be getting support, I'm all for them, and will begin creating and implementing them. I'll see if I can figure out a metric for them. Metric system works best.
RE: Endure
Delayed damage/energy seems like a good way to balance out those Endure users that can effectively get in a third attack at the end of the round. There's a fair few of those.
ASB abilities don't seem like a bad idea per se, but we'd need a way to figure them out better than just whipping up a random list so it doesn't end up like Sheer Force Cyclohm (e.g. randomly made up shit that is abnormally strong).
Also, this might seem like a weird statement to make, but it feels like people are actually UNDERRATING Cyclohm. While Gengar has its tricks to play and competent offenses to fall back on, Cyclohm is quite simply one of the best pure attackers in ASB. It can bulldoze its way through pretty much anything (think what would happen if DPP MixApe was in UU) with its insane coverage and power. You'd think it would get more love...
considering that one thunderbolt alone does 18 damage to anything neutral to it (and again, only 5 pokes being ressistant to Dragon/Electric) this thing has INSANE coverage (Fire/Electric/Ice/Water/Flying/Dragon hits almost every type either SE or just really hard and all of them getting pseudo-STAB thanks to sheer force), also he has reliable recovery, nice bulk (110/3/4 is far better than most pokes), inmunity to hax (thanks to shield dust), and awesome moves like taunt, heal bell, light screen, magnet rise, trick room, etc....
He is just so perfect in that he can deal with everything pretty well by overpowering them, i still think, change his ability to cloud nine and end with the crazyness
PS: why not prankster mismagius, she's probably one of the best recipents flavor-wise, and that would help setting her apart from gengar, also what's Friend Card? or is Friend Guard?
PSS: what happens with the other pokes with only ONE ability, (the little flower, castform, the mummy, the pixies, etc...) will they also recieve another ability?, since that seems fair
I guess I'll post some of my opinions in here, rather than just say them on IRC.
Re: Hyper Beam and Co
I completely agree that being Sluggish is not enough of a drawback for using these moves. I think that preventing attacks that have 10 BAP or more is a good idea, but I believe that it should be 10+ BAP moves after factoring STAB. Without factoring STAB, sluggishness still allows Pokemon to still use what effectively has the same power as Fire Blast, Hydro Pump and Thunder (often with much greater Accuracy).
Re: Perish Song
While I personally like Perish Song as is, since it encourages Switch=OK battles, I don't think a slight nerf would be a terrible thing. I'm okay with the nerf proposed in the OP, but I think that it should allow the Perish Song counter to run down the round that the user is KOed. This still allows for a tie, when it is used by a mon that does not have much hope of doing anything else to its opponent, while still preventing the use of Perish Song to net an easy KO from a 2 HP Pokemon.
Re: Endure
At most, Endure is allowing 2 extra moves from the user. A multitude of Pokemon have access to some form of passive damage, as well as preventing Endure with Taunt, or making the round useless with Encore. Not only that, but the opponent has a free action when Endure is used and can easily use Protect, Dig, Bounce, Detect, Substitute and more to get around any extra moves that the user gains through Endure. I do however, think that the bit about not being able to faint from energy loss should be removed, since I've stated before that I hate being able to use fully powered moves without sufficient energy.
Re: High energy moves with low energy
Just like I just said, I really hate this. When reffing, I've used the Damage x Current Energy/Energy Cost for attacks, and for non-damaging moves, I've made the attack fail. I personally do not see how a Pokemon can use a full powered combination with 2 Energy.
Re: Levitate
I am 100% against this. I absolutely hate adding anything to Pokemon to simply change it to a way that we'd like it. People proposed adding moves for "purely flavour purposes" a few SotGs ago, and I thought that is was shot down for the reason that we play Pokemon the way it is given to us. I don't really see how this is different.
Re: Levitate
I am 100% against this. I absolutely hate adding anything to Pokemon to simply change it to a way that we'd like it. People proposed adding moves for "purely flavour purposes" a few SotGs ago, and I thought that is was shot down for the reason that we play Pokemon the way it is given to us. I don't really see how this is different.
I completely understand you, but this is different due to balancing since levitate is no longer technically an ability. I dont think this is too serious, and the abilities thrown around would likely be considered broken and out of consideration.
@DK: I agree with your proposal for Perish Song. But you should probably add a clause which says that, if Perish Song causes the last two Pokémon to faint, the battle does not end in a tie, but in a loss for the Perish Song user. This way, Perish Song can't be used to "force ties", which would be annoying in itself
About Hyper Beam:
Since Hyper Beam involves expending an enormous amount of energy and then being sluggish the next turn, shouldn't the cap on moves be on energy, not Base Power? It would make sense flavor-wise and we could have the cap be 5 energy (I think that was it) to prevent Porygon-Z from spamming Hyper Beam ~ Tri Attack ~ Hyper Beam.
Levitate: I think the Levitate trait is fair for those Pokes like Beedrill that can clearly fly or hover above the ground, BUT I don't think it should be the same as the Levitate Ability. Since Levitate is the only available Ability for those 'mons who have it (and Skill Swap et. al. are rarely ever used, so that point is a little lukewarm), it should have something going for it that the other pseudo-Levitators cannot boast. To be honest, I think the Levitate trait should be kept as is and the Levitate Ability should be made into a full Ground-type attack immunity like in the cartridge games and elsewhere.
Sluggishness: I think a scenario where a Poke uses one of the Hyper Beams and then is able to turn right around and use another strong damaging attack normally on the very next Action really goes against the whole point of the sluggish drawback. I would like to suggest one or more of the following codifications for sluggishness, if I may be so bold:
The Pokemon must work harder than usual to successfully execute an attack, multiplying the energy cost of any move used while Sluggish by 2 (or 1.5).
The Pokemon is momentarily drained of strength and cannot fully execute an attack, decreasing the damage done by any attack or any effect caused by a non-damaging move while Sluggish by 1/2 (or 1/3).
The Pokemon is completely exhausted by the previous attack. It cannot use any attacking moves and non-attacking moves have their effect halved, but Chills restore 15 energy (or 18) while Sluggish.
Perish Song: I like either making the Perish Song user have to stay alive for the duration of the three Rounds. As Switch=OK becomes more the norm (which I strongly believe it will), this will most likely be a non-issue.
Endure: If I would change anything about Endure I would lower its priority to 0 and/or allow for self-KOs such as energy-KO, but I really don't think the move is too broken as is.
I'm going to comment on a few moves based on my personal experiences with them, targeted on the moves brought up in the OP.
Endure:
Endure's fine. First of all, it costs 15 energy, requires you have the energy to use it, and then gives you only two actions of usefulness after you expend the action using it. I don't think it should be changed.
Perish Song:
I agree with Deck's proposal for this. It does not need its effect changed, but I think that everyone should get the opportunity to Taunt or Encore or otherwise prevent its use. I support the idea of it looking like this:
Perish Song: The Pokemon lets out a horrible shriek that envelops the entire field. At the end of three (3) rounds, any Pokemon that hears Perish Song will faint. The haunting shriek can even echo through caves and other places. The effect is removed on that Pokemon if the Pokemon switches. This move strikes all Pokemon on the field, including the user.
Attack Power: -- | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 15 | Attack Type: Other | Effect Chance: -- | Typing: Normal | Priority: -1 | CT: Passive
About the Struggle instead of failing to use a move, I wouldn't really be averse to this, but because of the nature of the damage formula in ASB, Struggle becomes far more viable and threatening than it is in-game. This presents the interesting predicament where Taunt err, sucks, a lot because you expend a turn to use Taunt and suck on damage no matter what (the recoil on Struggle in ASB is not as penalizing as in-game.
I always felt like Struggle should be enforced somehow, like in the following example:
Poke A:
Taunt ~ Whatever ~ Whatever
Poke B:
GrassWhistle ~ Leech Seed ~ Roar
So on the first action when Taunt is used, like in-game, you'd fail it, but on consecutive moves that would fail, you'd Struggle instead. This would actually get Struggle some use on anything outside of Wobbuffet / Wynaut, and would follow in-game better.
In reality, I think I'd prefer to keep it as-is for simplicity and just append a 5 energy cost to Chills used when Taunted. It's probably the best solution.
Is there any particular reason why Protect doesn't block arena-wide attacks? In every description of protect in the anime (barring a few of the really early ones) it's a protective shield that surrounds the entire body, not just the front. So I don't really see why it can't block Earthquake and friends. Maybe it's a balance thing, I dunno, but I'd love to know why.
imo Perish Song isn't possible to obtain on enough mons for it to be worth nerfing. However, if you really want to nerf it, just get rid of it all together, because there's no anime precedent as far as I know (happy to be proven wrong on this point), and nobody who currently uses it will really miss it.
Haven't run into Endure, can't comment. However, while we're on the topic of death moves, Destiny Bond needs a buff ;)
If someone wants to use a high-power attack when they don't have enough energy, I suggest one of two ideas:
1. Force them to use Struggle instead. This was the precedent set by my battle against Hyperbeem. The Struggle is entirely the user's fault, because they didn't feel like checking the post-round to make sure they had enough energy for the attack.
2. Scale down the attack based on the amount of available energy, after which the user faints. Basically, you can still use Fire Blast if you have 4 energy, but it will have 6 BAP instead of 12, and you'll faint immediately after use.
No non-attacking moves or commands under Taunt. That's the entire point. If they have a non-attacking action ordered, they Struggle. End of Story.
Will there be a way to earn Gym Leadership from a current leader? I'd hate to miss out on getting a chance to be a Gym Leader just because I couldn't get enough battles quickly.
Is there any particular reason why Protect doesn't block arena-wide attacks? In every description of protect in the anime (barring a few of the really early ones) it's a protective shield that surrounds the entire body, not just the front. So I don't really see why it can't block Earthquake and friends. Maybe it's a balance thing, I dunno, but I'd love to know why.
As for your question shinyskarmory-EVERYONE who currently uses it will miss it. It's like suggesting users of a certain powerful combo in a fighting game won't miss it if it gets removed. Also, one of the mons with it in question is Gengar, who is probably the best mon in CAPASB.
Perish Song: I think the proposed change of -1 priority would work well. It would let more things stop it, but not completely change the move or remove its usefulness. Seems fair all around.
Taunt: I agree with the idea that taunted Pokemon that try to do non damaging moves should struggle. However, I believe that struggling should not take place during the round that they are taunted. In game you just fail if you try to use a status move and are taunted first. Additionally, I believe this should apply to the whole round during which you get taunted, rather than just the single action, to protect people who go first. Basically, if the order comes before the Taunt, you should fail, but if the Taunt comes before the order, you should Struggle.
Levitate: As nice as it would be, giving out new abilities is a horrible idea. I don't care how much it makes sense, if a Pokemon don't have an ability, then it doesn't have it. We make CAPs, sure, but who are we to change the Pokemon Game Freak gave us? It sets a terrible precedent, and I am completely against it. Personally, I don't see why we can't just make the Levitate ability (not others with the trait) give full Ground immunity, like in game.
Is there any particular reason why Protect doesn't block arena-wide attacks? In every description of protect in the anime (barring a few of the really early ones) it's a protective shield that surrounds the entire body, not just the front. So I don't really see why it can't block Earthquake and friends. Maybe it's a balance thing, I dunno, but I'd love to know why.
You're misinterpreting what Protect does. It says that it doesn't block field attacks, more commonly known as attacks that target the field and not the Pokemon. All damage from all attacks is prevented by Protect without fail, whether it be from Earthquake or Focus Punch or whatever. It's just a clarification that states that you don't actually stop an attack, only the damage from it. I'll edit the data audit thread to make this more clear.
I have to agree with the rest, I'm against randomly distributing abilities. I love the fact obviously flying or hovering Pokemon that are mysteriously struck by seismic waves due to typing in the game are now immune to such a silly thing with the Levitate trait. However, if Levitate got full Ground immunity, while the trait just dodged Magnitude and Earthquake, that should make enough difference to offset the need for new abilities.
I, for one, never saw how levitation grants you the ability to be immune to a mud-based projectile, but that's neither here nor there, I guess.
As for your question shinyskarmory-EVERYONE who currently uses it will miss it. It's like suggesting users of a certain powerful combo in a fighting game won't miss it if it gets removed. Also, one of the mons with it in question is Gengar, who is probably the best mon in CAPASB.
Size Class also defines what a Pokemon can Bodyblock for. A Pokemon can Bodyblock for any Pokemon with a size class less than or equal to its own. You can attempt to Bodyblock for a Pokemon with the next size class, however unless the Pokemon are approximately the same actual size (e.g. Electabuzz [2] and Magmar [3]) it may fail.
Finally, since many of the Pokemon with high size classes are slow, an additional command, "Duck Behind" can be used. Duck Behind can only succeed if the ally being targeted by Duck Behind has a Size Class at least 2 levels higher.
Since Weight Class is now quantifiable, Heavy Metal really doesn't need its extra effect. It will simply double the actual weight, and the Weight Class mechanics will take over from there.
Weight Class mechanics: Pokemon with a high Weight Class have a lot more momentum behind their full body attacks. If a Pokemon's Weight Class is greater than the sum of the Bodyblocker and the intended target's Weight Class, the moves Afro Break, Brave Bird, Double-Edge, Flare Blitz, Outrage, Petal Dance, Submission, Thrash, Take Down, Volt Tackle, Wild Charge, and Wood Hammer will all break through the Bodyblocking foe and hit the Bodyblocker and their intended target with full force. Giga Impact, Jump Kick, and Hi Jump Kick will also break through a Bodyblocking foe under these conditions, but will only hit the intended target with half the Base Attack Power.
Finally, in order to facilitate some more use of this mechanic, the "Power' Items and Macho Brace will increase a Pokemon's Weight Class by 1, and Iron Ball will increase a Pokemon's Weight Class by 3.
Additional notes: Each Rotom appliance has been given a different size and weight class to further differentiate it.
Stat System:
The stat system is based entirely in the Pokemon’s Base Stats.
Below are the limits applied to each stat category:
Rank 1: 0-25; 80 HP
Rank 2: 26-60; 90 HP
Rank 3: 61-95; 100 HP
Rank 4: 96-119; 110 HP
Rank 5: 120-140; 120 HP
Rank 6: 141-160; 125 HP
Rank 7: 161-180; 130 HP
Rank 8: 181-200; 135 HP
Rank 9: 201+; 140 HP
Size Class:
Size Class is based primarily on the Pokemon’s Height dimension, with the caveat that height is not necessarily demonstrative of a Pokemon’s complete size. Factors such as the width of the Pokemon and its shape (humanoid, quadrupedal, serpentine) also affect the Size Class.
Class 1: Caterpie, Diglett (Baseline: 0.8m or less)
Class 2: Weavile (Baseline: 0.8-1.2m, 1.2-2m serpentine)
Class 3: Sceptile (Baseline: 1.2-2m humanoid. 1.0-1.5m quadrupedal 2-3.5m serpentine)
Class 4: Raikou (Baseline: 2-3m humanoid, 1.5-2.5m quadrupedal, 3.5-5m serpentine)
Class 5: Arceus (Baseline: 3-4m humanoid/avian, 2.5-3.5m quadrupedal, 5-6.5m serpentine)
Class 6: Lugia (Baseline: 4-6m humanoid/avian, 3.5-4.5m quadrupedal, 6.5-8m serpentine)
Class 7: Wailord (Baseline: 6m+ humanoid/avian/quadrupedal, 8m+ serpentine)
Weight Class:
Weight Class is based on the Pokemon species Weight.
Class 1: <10kg
Class 2: 10-25kg
Class 3: 25-50kg
Class 4: 50-100kg
Class 5: 100-200kg
Class 6: 200-274kg
Class 7: 275-349kg
Class 8: 350-449kg
Class 9: 450-599kg
Class 10: 600-749kg
Class 11: 749-949kg
Class 12: 950kg+
Stat Anchor Post
btw. please use ctrl + F to find a mon. Save yourself some time.
I like the size class thing, but there are a few issues that merit some discussion. I think the size class of something like Magmar and Electabuzz should be the same for both as a baseline for the system. If Magmar and Electabuzz aren't in the same size class, then the size classes should be adjusted so that 1.4m-2m is the class 3 limit. To me, 1.2m and 1.3m Pokemon still seem to be "size 2".
I also think that the added values to the Dodge command's success seem rather arbitrary. I think that the greatest size class should have a baseline bonus of zero (0) to dodge, since they are the least likely to dodge of all classes. Then, by powers of two, add to the dodge chance backwards to CS 1. I would do the additive values like this:
Bodyblock: The Pokemon leaps in front of an ally and becomes the target of all single-target attacks that are directed at that Pokemon for the remainder of the action in which it is used, except those attacks that strike targets regardless of position or target in such a manner that make blocking them impractical (ex. Earth Power or Thunder). When used in a combo, the blocking Pokemon will block for the target for the initial action and the cooldown action. This command will fail unless the size class of the blocking Pokemon is the same as or greater than that of the target, or if the Pokemon is within 0.3m PokeDex size of the target (ex. Magmar and Electabuzz). Because the Pokemon is intentionally blocking moves, all attacks used against the blocking Pokemon will never miss for the action(s) it is blocking. Attacks directed at the target will instead use the blocking Pokemon's typing, defensive stats, and stage boosts for calculating the damage dealt.
Also, I think the name of "Duck Behind" is meh, so let's change it to "Take Cover", since that's closer to what it is doing and sounds better in general.
Take Cover: The Pokemon dives behind an ally which then becomes the target of all single-target attacks that are directed at the hiding Pokemon for the remainder of the action in which it is used, except those attacks that strike targets regardless of position or target in such a manner that make blocking them impractical (ex. Earth Power or Thunder). When used in a combo, the hiding Pokemon will hide behind the target for the initial action and the cooldown action. This command will fail unless the size class of the target is at least two (2) greater than that of the hiding Pokemon. Attacks directed at the hiding Pokemon will instead use the blocking Pokemon's typing, defensive stats, and stage boosts for calculating the damage dealt.
The class sizes have largely been adjusted at the margins to provide maximum benefit to the Pokemon in question. The vast majority of 3 stage evolving basics end up with size class 1, as well as the basics of smaller 2 stage evolving mons.
In any case while Electabuzz and Magmar have similarities, size isn't necessarily one of them. Not only is Magmar half a foot taller (Buzz is 1.1m, Magmar is 1.3m), its tail is a bit broader at the base, and height aside is generally a bit broader.
Basically the cutoff had to be somewhere, and 1.2m is essentially the differentiation point between 2 and 3. Once I hit a mon that was 1.2m, I basically had to decide whether it'd prefer a slightly stronger dodge, or the ability to Bodyblock size 3 mons and have size 1 mons Take Cover under it. Thus why despite Lucario and Fearow both being 1.2m, Lucario is Class Size 3 since its plethora of resistances and access to Counter make it an excellent Pokemon to Bodyblock with or Take Cover behind, whereas Fearow can only really Bodyblock successfully for Shadow Ball. That said, Fearow is also generally fast enough to Bodyblock at any point it might want to. Most Ground moves hit all targets.
So note the sizes have been duly considered. I'm sure there will be some complaints, but cutoffs had to be made somewhere, as you can go in an infinite loop of 1.1m and 1.3m should be the same size, 1.3 and 1.5m should be the same size, etc. etc. 1.2m is 0.8 inches shy of 4 feet tall. Once you hit over that threshold 4-6 ft tall seems "human" enough to be the standard Pokemon size.
As far as the CS values, I like where Dusk went with them, but I'd suggest an alteration that shifts the base to 2.5 and then uses powers of 2. While there are a few Fully Evolved Pokemon with CS 1, most of them are Legends which get a pass afaic, and what few others are either hyper-offensive Normal-type Pokemon and a few outliers like Excadrill and Krillowatt. In any case the CS only boosts the effectiveness of the Dodge Command, and there's really no reason Pokemon that small and quick (at least Excadrill in Sandstorm, heh) shouldn't be able to use it. In most instances they'd rather be causing damage anyway, and using their decent defensive typings to Bodyblock won't work on much.
I'm a fan of this codification, it definitely helps to encourage me to use dodge and bodyblock. Take cover is pretty cool too.
By "Heavy Metal really doesn't need its extra effect" did you mean removing the part about adding 2 BP to full contact moves? Because that was one of the cool things that drew me towards getting an Aron in the first place.
In any case while Electabuzz and Magmar have similarities, size isn't necessarily one of them. Not only is Magmar half a foot taller (Buzz is 1.1m, Magmar is 1.3m), its tail is a bit broader at the base, and height aside is generally a bit broader.
Basically the cutoff had to be somewhere, and 1.2m is essentially the differentiation point between 2 and 3. Once I hit a mon that was 1.2m, I basically had to decide whether it'd prefer a slightly stronger dodge, or the ability to Bodyblock size 3 mons and have size 1 mons Take Cover under it. Thus why despite Lucario and Fearow both being 1.2m, Lucario is Class Size 3 since its plethora of resistances and access to Counter make it an excellent Pokemon to Bodyblock with or Take Cover behind, whereas Fearow can only really Bodyblock successfully for Shadow Ball. That said, Fearow is also generally fast enough to Bodyblock at any point it might want to. Most Ground moves hit all targets.
Ah, I see. That's fine then. So long as they're still able to bodyblock for each other, it doesn't appear too weird. And the only reason I felt that the baseline being at Magmar/Electabuzz made sense is because they've always been a "duet" of Pokemon, and have nigh-identical stats, just shifted around. It only made sense, but no biggie.
I'm fine with starting the dodge bonuses at +2.5 and doing powers of 2 on that. I like powers of 2 because it creates a logical growth for dodge based on size, and tbh, Pokemon like Caterpie should be incredibly hard to hit with moves anyway since they're so small. Looks good.