Stealth Rock, still 100% needed?

[sammao]

Hi, this thread is to discuss should Stealth Rock still be on 99.99% of the team like it did before (In Gen 5, really only Baton Pass chain and maybe Dragmag team will have possibility of not using SR, both kind of teams are incredibly rare).

Before you call me crazy or dumb, please note that I do not mean SR sucks or anything like that. I think SR is still awesome and should be on like 95% of the teams, but not 99.99%. However, there are some reasons that some Offensive Team may not use it and I outline it below.

1) Fitting SR in one of your monster can hurt your momentum somewhat. For example, while Groudon (and Landorus-T) can fit SR in its moveset, it will no longer able to run a Rock Polish set, a set that arguably fit offensive teams better. Dialga can also fit SR, but it can't run Choice Specs or Scarf set that fit offensive team better. Deoxy-A can certainly fit SR, but if running it you may often need to sack yourself and you can't run Life Orb, which is again the better item for offense. Moreover, the moveslot itself can improve your coverage and that can be crucial for some monster.

2) The move SR itself, while being widely distributed, is still not on every single monsters, especially if you look at the Uber tier pokemon, only thing that learns it being Groudon, Dialga and Arceus form. Fitting SR does limit team building a bit by forcing you to choose a monster able to learn it.

3) Perhaps the most important reason is Defog. This most makes hazard removal much easier and making setting up SR sometimes not worthy for offensive team, where monsters can otherwise use the turn setting up SR to deliver a strong attack instead of hitting only one to two SR switch in before it gets removed. Furthermore, if you run defog yourself to support monster like Ho-Oh, you may end up removing your own hazard anyway.

That being said, all balance and stall team (and most other teams) should still always use SR. I think most offensive team should still use it if able to. My point is that some Offensive team may consider not using it for the reasons listed above.

BTW, although this issue can apply to all tiers, I am only discussing about XY Uber tier, so please avoid all other kinds of discussion.


Edit: I included a team for reference, Edit 3, I put up yet another team

Edit 2: Looks like I should clarify my point better, I think 95% of the team should use SR. But for the remaining offensive teams, if you can use it, do so. However, if you can't, you have the option to not using it, it isn't completely crippling, especially if you are using defog.

Hide

Yveltal @ Life Orb
Ability: Dark Aura
EVs: 184 Spd / 72 SAtk / 252 Def
Naive Nature
- Oblivion Wing
- Foul Play
- Sucker Punch
- Taunt

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 HP / 252 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- U-turn
- Knock Off

Gengar @ Gengarite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Substitute

Palkia @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunder
- Spacial Rend

Zekrom @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
Jolly Nature
- Bolt Strike
- Outrage
- Volt Switch
- Dragon Claw

Arceus-Fire @ Flame Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 4 Def / 252 HP / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Judgment
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Calm Mind

Another team: I suppose I can put SR on Landorus-T, but the thing is Choice Band is needed on it so it can check E-killer

Hide

Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 Spd / 252 Atk / 204 HP
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sacred Fire
- Roost
- Earthquake

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 136 Atk / 252 HP / 120 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Roost
- Defog

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 176 HP / 80 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Knock Off

Palkia @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Thunder
- Spacial Rend

Arceus @ Zap Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Calm Mind

Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Void
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt
- Sludge Bomb

 

[Haruno]

Short answer, yes.

 

[orch]

Yeah, you need SR for this. If not, there's a bunch of SR weak pokemon that are pressured by the SR presence. SR also gives opposing stall team a hard time. The ubiquity of defog should not stop you from using SR, since you can easily lay it again. Trap and kill defogger with gengar and various pokemon with taunt are also other options to stop defogging. SR is absolutely crucial for success in ubers.

 

[Ascension]

I'm going to have to agree with Orch and Haruno. Not running SR will give the annoying roided up turkey monster more chances to switch in and wreak havoc. No matter what set you choose, be it band, scarf, subroost, or something else, Ho Oh is infamous for easily regaining momentum because of it's stupid powerful abilty. Having rocks on the field makes defog user switch ins a heck of a lot more predictable. With a couple of smart moves, suddenly the guy using Ho Oh can lose that momentum, and that is vital.

Plus Yveltal and choice specs Kyogre are no slouches either.

 

[sammao]

​

Yeah, you need SR for this. If not, there's a bunch of SR weak pokemon that are pressured by the SR presence. SR also gives opposing stall team a hard time. The ubiquity of defog should not stop you from using SR, since you can easily lay it again. Trap and kill defogger with gengar and various pokemon with taunt are also other options to stop defogging. SR is absolutely crucial for success in ubers.

You certainly have your point. But given that defog is so common, and the fact that you maybe using it anyway, there are some team that doesn't want to use it if they cannot fit it. Also, Gengar cannot trap every defogger like Scizor and Giratina-O. Relying on taunt to stop defog is not reliable unless you dedicated your whole team to it. Of course, SR is still a big advantage if you can fit it, but like I said some offensive team may be better not to use it due to team building issues. Again, I think like 95% of team should use it, just not 99.99%

I'm going to have to agree with Orch and Haruno. Not running SR will give the annoying roided up turkey monster more chances to switch in and wreak havoc. No matter what set you choose, be it band, scarf, subroost, or something else, Ho Oh is infamous for easily regaining momentum because of it's stupid powerful abilty. Having rocks on the field makes defog user switch ins a heck of a lot more predictable. With a couple of smart moves, suddenly the guy using Ho Oh can lose that momentum, and that is vital.

Plus Yveltal and choice specs Kyogre are no slouches either.

Again, you have your point and I have already explained what I want to say above. Just want to add that SR cannot be guarantee and your team should not rely on SR to check Ho-oh these days just because it can be removed so easily.

 

[Haruno]

Again, you have your point and I have already explained what I want to say above. Just want to add that SR cannot be guarantee and your team should not rely on SR to check Ho-oh these days just because it can be removed so easily.

I like how you posted a team that shows that sr isn't "needed" and yet that team gets destroyed by ho oh.........

 

[Jimmyftw]

I think most team should try incorporating Stealth Rock, however, the move is by no means mandatory. Having a core such as Kyogre + Zekrom for example, pressure Ho-oh enough so it cannot abuse its ability freely. Moreover, I have seen teams running Toxic Spikes and Sticky Web without Stealth Rock and they are pretty solid teams. The notion that Hyper Offensive team requires Stealth Rock 100% of the time is caused by the misconception that Deoxy-A + Blaziken is the only Hyper Offensive style in Uber. However, this is false as there exist other Hyper Offensive cores such as Scolipede + Mega Gengar which don't necessarily rely on Stealth Rock.

That said, Stealth Rock is still an invaluable move to have on your team as it pressures Rock weak Pokemon greatly, and every team should try to incorporate it whenever possible.

 

[sammao]

I like how you posted a team that shows that sr isn't "needed" and yet that team gets destroyed by ho oh.........

But like how? Sure it can come in on Scizor and Gengar, but Yveltal with Foul Play, Specs Palkia, Zekrom, and Arceus-Fire can all come in to certain moves and force it out. Also, even if I put up SR, it just isn't guarantee.

 

[Fireburn]

There are enough good Pokemon that learn SR that not having it puts you at a disadvantage. Groudon, Arceus, Deoxys formes, Landorus-T, Dialga, Bronzong, Jirachi, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Smeargle, Mamoswine maybe, etc. You don't always "need" SR but having it is so advantageous that there isn't really a justifiable reason to not use it. And as other have said, in a metagame infested with Ho-Oh, Multiscale Lugia, and Yveltal, having SR is arguably more important than it used to be, even with Defog around. Simply running Defog isn't an excuse to not use SR given how easy it is to put it back up and how it is needed to help check threats like Ho-Oh (gl outpressuring this thing without SR or a lure), Specs Kyogre, Lugia, Yveltal...

 

[Edgar]

orch tried to post a troll comment, he did it wrong since he added text to it, nice fucking job, you ruined it for everyone.

 

[Ash Borer]

sr offers way too much chip damage to pass up. It's just a tool that eeks out a myriad of 2HKOs and 1HKOs.

It's subtle at times, but it changes games. For example banded Scizor OHKOs E-killer after rocks with superpower, it does not should there be no hazards up. Zekrom 2 hits max HP arceus with bolt strike if rocks are up, and it fails to without rocks. With rocks up Specs ogre waterspout usually OHKOs +2 xerneas (imagine it geomancies as you spout), however, it does not if there are no rocks up. There are a ridiculous amount of these occurences, rocks win games, idk why the hell you would make a team without rocks.

Without rocks you need a ho-oh switch in too, and those are hard to come by. I stack a lot of anti ho-oh shit on my team and it still causes me a lot o trouble should I not be able to set dem hazards.

 

[Hack]

Stealth Rock, still 100% needed?

Yes

Edit: what the hell are those "example" teams, are they supposed to be good teams?
Edit2: edgar is right orch, remove your text if you wanna troll post

 

[Haruno]

If you really want to prove a point, just post a team that doesn't have sr and more importantly WOULD NOT BENEFIT from having it. Replays are always nice to include as well.

 

[sammao]

Yes

Edit: what the hell are those "example" teams, are they supposed to be good teams?
Edit2: edgar is right orch, remove your text if you wanna troll post

If you really want to prove a point, just post a team that doesn't have sr and more importantly WOULD NOT BENEFIT from having it. Replays are always nice to include as well.

Please ignore my first team, the second team is a much better example, I think replay isn't very convincing as everybody can win games， but I will try looking for it.

 

[Hack]

The second team isn't a very good example of a non-SR team either. It's still way to weak to Ho-oh. Scizor is absolute bait for Ho-oh. It also is your defoger on a team reliant on Ho-oh itself. Let's take an example when you go against some Groudon+Ho-oh based team:

1. Opponent gets rocks up with Groudon.
2. To Defog you need to bring in Scizor, you want to defog because you need to use your own Ho-oh to deal damage.
3. Opponents Ho-oh comes in on Defog, and there is nothing in the world you can do about it if you want to get rid of your opponents SR. Then something almost dies, if you bring in Palkia on the SF, it's sunny and Ho-oh can still come out on top, but it can also Brave Bird and even if you bring in Eleceus on the BB, you still can't OHKO it with Judgment and it still has the sun boosted SF to throw back for a KO.
4. Process repeats itself in some turns when Groudon gets the chance to get up Rock again (and I can tell you that your team really doesn't strap it for moments when it can).

Furthermore are forced to lock into Stone Edge with Landorous-T if you don't want to give Ho-oh further free turns there. If you lock into Stone Edge, however, you are giving Groudon a free turn to SR. After you put something to sleep, Ho-oh gets in vs Darkrai as well and kills something.

 

[Ash Borer]

Well I think what must be addressed for those arguing there is no point in making a team without stealth rock is that there are some costs in using Stealth Rock, so it's not ridiculous to assert that team could benefit from not including this move.

Firstly you have to carry a stealth rock user. This part of using Stealth Rock is a bit obvious, the number of pokemon that can use this move are numerous, so it's usually not challenging to find a pokemon that can, but at the same time there is a limit. Groudon, Landorus, Deoxys, Dialga, these are great pokemon but is it true the fit on all teams? Is a stealth rock setting Dialga as good at breaking down the opponent's defenses with attacks, or revenge killing or what have you as the same dialga with a more offensive, or perhaps defensive set? No, of course not, you're forced unchoiced, you're forced to take up a moveslot for the move itself. This is a cost that renders a teamslot a bit more passive than it has to be.

Now with defog stealth rock setting pokemon tend to be.. a lot more defensive. Suicide hazards really don't fuckin work now without immense anti anti hazard tactics like taunt stacking, defiant (bisharp is a #threat), and "offensive pressure". Sorry, if your SR user dies first turn, and they have the right arceus form (say, groundceus switches in on krom volt switch, or grassceus switches into ogre surf) your rocks are gone, bye. To the team that sacked a pokemon to get up rocks, instead of attacking and chunking the opponent or conserving this pokemon they have noticeably lost some ground. At that, in my opinion it's a poor tactic to have an unpersistent stealth rock setting pokemon, especially if you rely on these hazards to check some threats. I have tried suicide hazards in this generation, and I have found the second you lose momentum their defogger aggressively removes them. Because of this, having stealth rocks on your team can cause you to slow your team down a bit, in that you will be reluctant to let your hazard setting pokemon die, so you need reasonable switch ins to a pokemon that will switch into YOUR stealth rock setting pokemon. A shift to a bit more balanced, and defensive team style is needed for hazards reliant teams, and this can be stifling to offensive teams. OFfensive teams reliant on stealth rocks to break down defenses can adapt by having multiple stealth rock users, but this further restricts teambuilding options and sucks up even more moveslots.

This brings me to my final point. The turn where you actually set rocks. Due to the small profile of pokemon that can use the move, and the effectiveness of the move, you can, and will give up momentum when you find a turn to use them. You must be on your defensive backfoot as kyogre switches into your Groudon deploying rocks. You simply cant sack Groudon, you need it later to set up rocks as the threat of defog is so high that you may have sacked Groudon for next to nothing. Teams without SR never give this up, they can continue to volt turn, and fire off choiced attacks or what have you.

Overall teambuilding is more flexible if you decide to not include SR, and it's easier to keep momemtum going.

This being said, I am still adamant that Stealth Rock is too beneficial to any playstyle to give up, but the cost of using rocks must be considered.

Also, focus sashes are gay lol.

1. Opponent gets rocks up with Groudon.
2. To Defog you need to bring in Scizor, you want to defog because you need to use your own Ho-oh to deal damage.
3. Opponents Ho-oh comes in on Defog, and there is nothing in the world you can do about it if you want to get rid of your opponents SR. Then something almost dies, if you bring in Palkia on the SF, it's sunny and Ho-oh can still come out on top, but it can also Brave Bird and even if you bring in Eleceus on the BB, you still can't OHKO it with Judgment and it still has the sun boosted SF to throw back for a KO.
4. Process repeats itself in some turns when Groudon gets the chance to get up Rock again (and I can tell you that your team really doesn't strap it for moments when it can).

This is exactly the scenario that stealth rock can cause issue. No one would be foolish enough to send scizor directly in to groudon to defog should the opp have Ho-oh, the person NOT using stealth rock has the initiative here. If you set up SR on me with Groudon, and I send in specs ogre (imagine I have this on my team for argumentation purposes), I now have gotten ogre in "for free", this can be a large cost, almost all teams will have a good switch in to specs ogre mind you, but at the wrong time, or too many times this can punch massive holes in your team.

When a defog user has to make th same trade he is merely evening the score. Now, if Scizor comes in later in the match to defog, and is sacked in this case, Kyogre can come in again on Ho-oh, and scare it off, at least forcing a speed tie, and finally if rocks want to come up again, a third Kyogre switch in can be conferred. Three unscathed specs ogre spouts can be overwhelming, and to make this trade for a scizor, and the damage SR has done, can be worth it.

 

[Hack]

Lol I was just addressing his teambuild. He doesn't have a switch in to Ho-oh. His Scizor is his Defoger. His Scizor can't punish switches to Ho-oh. He has a Ho-oh of his own that he wants to Defog for so it can function optimally. Your example with Kyogre would be relevant if the team you were addressing it to didn't have a Kyogre check. As for now it just looks like you didn't read.

 

[Blue Jay]

The problem is that Defog rarely allows you to "even the score". It is only beneficial reactively, not proactively. Stealth Rock and Defog both cost a turn, but while Stealth Rock almost always provides some tangible benefit, Defog is merely preventing further damage and does not undo the damage dealt or deal damage to the opponent. Therefore the cost of Defogging is higher than that of using Stealth Rock.

Moreover, the playstyle suggested might forgo Stealth Rock is offense. Offensive and especially hyper offensive teams are easily those that punish Defog users the most heavily. The ease of Defogging is overemphasized, especially in this scenario. Mega Gengar, common on offensive teams, easily removes many Defog users. Mega Blaziken can threaten to Swords Dance quite unhampered on many of them. Very fast Taunt users, very threatening wallbreakers and set up sweepers are all fairly abundant in hyper offense, and still used a fair amount in more balanced offense. If you can Defog more than once without considerable difficulty and threat to your team, the offensive team is probably poorly built.

 

[MMII]

Again, I think like 95% of team should use it, just not 99.99%

The issue I have with this is that the numbers are arbitrary and therefore impossible to argue against.

Anyways, I agree with what Blue Jay said. To add to it, Stealth Rock is such a cheap and easy move that provides such crucial benefits (beyond just crippling Ho-Oh) that in just about every case (sure there can be exceptions) a team that can't afford to fit it needs to be rebuilt. You can do so much more with a solid team that has SR than an equally solid team that doesn't have one (assuming such a team exists).

 

[midend]

SR allows you to scout for sets too, breaking sashes, sturdy and even limiting switch ins.
It is useful over spikes that the only things immune to them are magi guard users, all of which are easily manhandled and none are very viable in ubers
In a more important role, they turn ALOT of possible /2KOs into guaranteed OHKOs. That, my friend, is something so massive that it makes it seem as if you are new to competitive singles in the first place, having asked this obvious question

 

[Thugly Duckling]

Why the fuck is there a thread for this? Bitches better be packing Arceus-Rock if you don't have Stealth Rock or the flaming turkey known as yohoE Ho-oh will wreck you

 

[MrKijani]

Well, as many people have already stated Stealth Rocks are still a major asset to any team. They are the easiest of the four hazards to set up, offer the greatest utility, and provide teams with some good advantages during gameplay. Notably against Ho-Oh in Ubers, but they also break sashes, wear down switches more quickly, and are altogether better to have and not really need, than to desperate need, and not have.

 

[Fireburn]

This thread has run its course.