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Steel Arceus (Utility Support) (Written) (QC: 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Psylink, Jun 6, 2013.

  1. Psylink

    Psylink

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    So not Forry
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    I’m Psylink, doing a support set for Arceus-Steel

    So I like Arceus-Steel, it works nicely. I knew it was a bit of a higher priority than some of the other Arceus forms, so here I am! Feel free to nitpick as if there isn't a user named Theorymon to do it for you!

    Quality Control 3/3: | Shrang | trickroom | Melee Mewtwo |
    Grammar-Prose 2/2 | melvni | srndpt |
    Amateur Check(s): P2X7 | Pikachuuun | tehy |


    Skeleton
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    [SET]
    name: Defensive
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp
    move 2: Roar / Perish Song
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Ice Beam / Judgment
    item: Iron Plate
    ability: Multitype
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    -Walls and outspeeds a normally EVed Extreme Killer Arceus and many others.
    -Can burn to cripple defensive Pokemon and physical attackers with Will-o-Wisp.
    -Can phase with the move of choice: Roar is a faster way of getting them out, while Perish Song is a good game finisher.
    -Has reliable recovery with Recover.
    -EVs are designed to take abuse from physical attacks.
    -Is only a check to Arceus-Normal. If you know it has Lum Berry, then use something else to answer it.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    -Setup bait for many Pokemon, like Forretress and Groudon, and Groudon can hit hard with it’s STAB, but is neutered by WoW, and can't take repeated Judgements.
    -Loves hazards from the Deoxys forme of choice (Roar or Perish Song can phaze nicely)
    -Loves Kyogre, but isn’t required to function. If there isn’t Kyogre, then a Fire resist is ideal.
    -Frail sweepers are good teammates, as a big revenge killer is neutered. Mewtwo is a good example.
    -Dragon-types can't be used as freely, as Arceus-Steel walls physical sets, but can decently wall special attacks as well.
    -Can run Stealth Rock, but that means getting rid of a means of attack, recovery, the ability to neuter physical attackers, or phazing. They are all important, but you can decide what to replace.
    -Toxic can be ran over Will-o-Wisp to cripple Calm Mind users and defensive Pokemon.
    -Timid outspeeds Adamant Arceus-Normal, and speed ties with Jolly, unless using Extreme Speed, but that's rather pointless on it's part.
    -Can outspeed Rayquaza and Kyurem-W with 56 Spe EVs, and 176 for standard Lati@s sets.


    [SET]
    name: Utility Support
    move 1: Will-O-Wisp
    move 2: Roar / Perish Song
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Ice Beam / Judgment
    item: Iron Plate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is a great choice for a supportive Pokemon. While it might lack the Leftovers recovery that other Steel-types—such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Skarmory—offer, Steel Arceus's superior stats and wider movepool set it apart. In fact, it is both the fastest and specially bulkiest Steel-type in Ubers. </p>

    <p>Steel Arceus is one of the few Steel-type Pokemon to learn Will-O-Wisp, so it's a given on a defensive set, as it allows Steel Arceus to cripple most physical attackers. Note that this isn't a sure-fire way to cripple Normal Arceus, as Will-O-Wisp's shaky accuracy can result in it taking heavy damage from a Swords Dance-boosted Normal Arceus. However, because most Normal Arceus don't run maximum Speed, Steel Arceus can act as an emergency check to it if your team is running out of options to deal with it.</p>

    <p>Recover is the other major jewel in Steel Arceus's crown, ensuring that unlike most other Steel-types, it isn't forced to rely on Wish, Rest, or other less reliable methods of healing. Steel Arceus's longevity also makes it a great phazer. Roar is the reliable and immediate option for phazing, while Perish Song is a slower, more risky method that has the advantage of dooming the last Pokemon standing, but Roar is far more reliable in most situations. When it comes to offensive options, Ice Beam is the prime choice, as it allows Steel Arceus to damage a wide variety of Ice-weak Pokemon, such as Rayquaza and Landorus, and also deals good damage to Groudon, Giratina-O, and Zekrom. Judgment's coverage isn't nearly as good, but it hits Kyurem-W, Terrakion, and Tyranitar super-effectively, while also being stronger than Ice Beam against neutral targets. Kyurem-W in particular can actually defeat Steel Arceus that don't run Judgment with Fusion Flare, Focus Blast, or Earth Power. </p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Steel Arceus has a few other options up its sleeve, but finding moves to replace is tough, as removing Will-O-Wisp or its phazing move lessens Steel Arceus's utility and replacing its attacking move makes Steel Arceus even bigger Taunt bait. Stealth Rock is an option if your team is desperate to fit in the entry hazard, while Toxic allows Steel Arceus to cripple Ho-Oh switch-ins and dangerous Calm Mind users. If your team is extremely weak to Ho-Oh, Steel Arceus also has the more direct option of running Stone Edge. Finally, Magic Coat prevents Ferrothorn and other Spikers from setting up hazards and can surprise Deoxys-S leads (though note that Fire Punch 4HKOes Steel Arceus outside of rain).</p>

    <p>The Speed investment lets Steel Arceus tie with offensive Arceus formes, but if you prefer a bulkier set and don't mind losing a little bit of Speed, you can run anywhere from 176 Speed EVs and a Timid nature to outspeed Latias and Latios, or a Calm or Bold nature with 168 Speed EVs to outspeed Rayquaza and Kyurem-W.</p>

    <p>Because Steel Arceus is such a great phazer, it's only natural that Spikes users such as the Deoxys formes, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory make good choices as teammates, despite the typing redundancies. However, Steel Arceus itself is very vulnerable to being set up on by hazard setters, so spinners such as Forretress, Tentacruel, Excadrill, and Kabutops are good teammates. There is always the riskier option of Espeon or Xatu to block hazards from going up; of the two, the former is preferred due to its decent offensive stats.</p>

    <p>Steel Arceus has serious problems with several common Pokemon on sun teams, including Ho-Oh, Kyurem-W (when not using Judgment), and Reshiram; the threat of other dangerous special attackers such as Ground Arceus, Fighting Arceus, and Kyogre make it important to also cover Water-, Fighting-, and Ground-type attacks. All of this makes Kyogre an excellent teammate. Not only does Kyogre nullify Steel Arceus's weaknesses to sun teams with Drizzle, it can also use Fighting Arceus and Ground Arceus as platforms to launch its torrential assault. In return, Steel Arceus does a good job of checking Latias for Kyogre. Just be warned, however, that even bulky Kyogre will take a lot from Ho-Oh's Brave Bird. When it comes to typing synergy, floating Dragon-types with Levitate—such as Giratina-O and Latias—partner well with Steel Arceus, as they are resistant or immune to all of its weaknesses while Steel Arceus covers theirs.</p>
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  2. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    So I'm not sure about what you're doing here. Is this supposed to be a revamp or just the support set? If it's just a support set, please indicate on the thread title that it's just a support set.
  3. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    Steel Arceus could use a revamp in my opinion. Would you like to do it, Psylink?
  4. Theorymon

    Theorymon You have a fever. I prescribe more dead angels.
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    CM certainly needs to be there before I approve this, and to be honest, I still think the SD set deserves to be in the analysis (as the last set obviously). Steel as a STAB is lame, but its such an amazing typing that I think it can still pull off an SD set. Also, I've found that SD Steel Arceus is also one of the few SD Arceus that can get away with Will-O-Wisp

    Think something like

    -Swords Dance
    -Iron Head
    -Earthquake / Will-O-Wisp
    -Recover

    with Jolly and max Speed + Atk. I never tried a max HP version, though I swear I've heard someone bring that up before.

    Edit: Also, the evs are wrong for the first set, you are going to need max HP not max defense...
  5. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Shrang, Theorymon, this is just a support set, but I could do a full revamp if you would like.
  6. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Sorry about the double post, but that's the same set as before except for EVs. Changed the support set EVs
  7. ThisMysteriousGuy

    ThisMysteriousGuy

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    Just some general comments as an avid fan of Steelceus

    While it is setup bait for Forretress, I don't feel it's setup bait for Groudon. Groudon really hates Will-o-Wisp (Support Groudon can't 2HKO once it has been burned and I think this might be the case with some offensive versions as well) and also can't take repeated Judgements.

    Note that this is only the case for standard EKiller. Also note that 168 EVs of Speed is needed to outspeed Rayquaza, Kyurem-W, and Kyurem-B, all of which are Pokemon Steelceus can check nicely.

    Also do note that despite this set being "Physically-Defensive" Steelceus can still tank Draco Meteors and other Special Dragon moves without much issue, and as such would make a good check to stuff like SubCM Latias.
  8. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Made a majority of those changes. Any more nitpicks before I'm ready for QC? Unless you want me to do a full revamp, which I'm happy to do.
  9. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Firstly, we've decided that we don't want you doing the entire revamp just yet. You still seem relatively new to the system, and Steelceus is an important analysis. We'll get you just working on this set first.

    Onto the set itself, I really don't think what you have their is optimal. Steelceus needs to run a Timid nature if you want to as comprehensively check ExtremeKiller and other Arceus formes, as well as Latias and Latios. Jolly ExtremeKillers exist, and they'll just EQ the crap out of you before you get to do anything. At least with max speed, you have a speed tie to factor in. I also think Iron Head is mediocre on this set. It's really weak. While I guess you can attempt to flinch hax Latios, Judgement is just more consistent, and you can Roar out Latios anyway. What I think the set should look like:

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Will-o-Wisp
    move 2: Roar / Perish Song
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Judgment
    item: Iron Plate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    - Mention in AC: Stealth Rock, Toxic
  10. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Will do in the morning, as of 11 PM in GMT-7.
  11. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Changes made
  12. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Sorry to make you change again, but we've decided that Judgement isn't the option as the attacking move. I've discussed with QC, and we feel that Ice Beam is a better option as the attacking move. Judgement's main targets are Kyurem-W, Terrakion and Tyranitar which admittedly are important. However, Ice Beam hits way more targets, such as Rayquaza / Lati@s / Garchomp / Salamence / Zekrom / Groudon / Groundceus / Landorus(-T) / Gliscor / Shaymin-S. Long story short, Ice Beam hits more targets for more damage than Judgement, so I think it's better off as the primary slash.

    [SET]
    name: Support
    move 1: Will-o-Wisp
    move 2: Roar / Perish Song
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Ice Beam / Judgment
    item: Iron Plate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
  13. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Then you'll troll me and change it again.

    But in all seriousness, changed. If you don't mess with me like that again (lol) then I'm ready for QC Checks
  14. Psylink

    Psylink

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    This thread is being neglected :( Is bump a thing in C&C? Or is that just RMT? If so, then bump.
  15. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    A couple more things:

    I wouldn't really bother with trying to outspeed different ExtremeKiller spreads, since all they'll do is just speed creep you. Just get rid of the 172 IMO. 168 with a neutral nature can stay for Ray and Kyurem if you want. While you're there, couple of other benchmarks might also be handy (Like 176 Timid for Latios, 112 Timid for Garchomp).

    A very important thing to mention, though, IMO, is that Steel Arceus, while it can check ExtremeKiller, it's not a very reliable one. You can be screwed over in quite a different number of ways. Lum ExtremeKiller ignores WoW altogether and Brick Breaks / EQs your face. EQ WILL put you into ExtremeSpeed kill range, and while you have a chance at surviving +2 Brick Break + ExtremeSpeed, you'd have to hit Will-O-Wisp twice, which isn't the most reliable of things to try (only a 56.25% chance). The other way you can lose is if you face Jolly ExtremeKiller with a Life Orb (using Earthquake). You speed-tie with it, and factoring in Will-O-Wisp's accuracy, you only have a 37.5% chance to pull off a successful burn, which is something I don't like putting my trust in.

    Finally, I know the GP team would probably get to this, but it would be nice to just touch up the formatting. Since Smogon uses American English, you need to use "Judgment" and "Judgement" (I don't like it either, but you're just going to have to deal with it), and every time you have a slash, it needs to have a space between words and slashes (so eg 252 HP (space) / 4 Def / 252 Spe)

    Do these and I'll approve.
  16. Psylink

    Psylink

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    All changes made
  17. Rohail

    Rohail Vaporeon <3
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    Hi there Psylink, I have a few additions that may help:

    These points should be AC because they discuss Nature and EVs.

    The first point in SC talks about it outspeeding an walling "stuff", and because shrang pointed out that Steelceus isn't the BEST check to Extreeme Killer Arceus, there should be a better example there (idk, like Shaymin-S?).

    This point should be removed from AC and added to SC. There should be a whole new point on emphasizing the facts about Arceus-Normal.

    Lastly, you still didn't put the spaces in between the "/" dashes. Here, just c/p (copy and paste) this:

    Do note that it's "Will-O-Wisp", and not "Will-o-Wisp". Another thing, the EVs that you put should be in this order: HP, Atk, Def, SpA, SpD, and Spe. Your order didn't follow the latter.

    Because I'm not QC, you don't have to implement all (if any) of my suggestions. Nevertheless, I hope I helped ^_^
  18. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Yeah, make sure you implement Rohail17's changes.

    Otherwise,
    [qc]1/3[/qc]
  19. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Stuff.

    All implented. Thank you for the check! I have a few questions as well.

    1. When should I write this up?

    2. Should I find a thread where I tell QC I'm ready for their checks? I saw something like that in the OU Analyses subforum.
  20. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    1) When you get 2/3 QC checks

    2) I'm not aware of this, but you can VM or PM a QC member to tell them that you're ready for their check. Keep in mind that a large of them are no longer active.
  21. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Thank you.
  22. trickroom

    trickroom
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    [​IMG]

    QC APPROVED 2/3

    You can write this up
  23. Psylink

    Psylink

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    Thank you! Will do. Now, before I write this, do I include the [OVERVIEW], or do I write [SET] at the beginning?
  24. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
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    [Overview] is the first one, then before each set you type

    [SET]
    name:
    .
    .
    .
  25. Psylink

    Psylink

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    thanks furai. I'll have this up by tommorow, as of GMT-7

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