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Storm Gods- Rain Dance Team

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Crowspeaker, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Instead of a typical Drizzle team, I decided to run a Rain Dance team, so I could abuse Kingdra's Swift Swim. Thus far, it's worked out pretty nicely and actually wins the weather war almost every time it comes up against other weather teams, although it does have some trouble with special walls and set-up sweepers, especially those that have Substitute or priority moves.


    ________________________________

    [​IMG]

    Zeus (Raikou) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Thunder
    - Weather Ball
    - Aura Sphere
    - Hidden Power (Ice)

    Raikou abuses the heck out of the rain... and any other weather my opponents decide to toss my way, for that matter. I usually lead with him when I face other weather teams, since Thunder wrecks havoc on other rain teams, Weather Ball catches sand and sun teams off guard, and HP Ice will wipe out a surprising number of common leads. The Expert Belt works well with his excellent coverage and gives him more versatility/staying power than a choice item would. I can usually wipe out 2 or 3 of the opponent's Pokemon with this guy before he gets wiped out by a speedy Earthquake-user or boosted priority move.

    When I'm not using him to lead, I usually wait until one of my other Pokemon faints and then send him out to sweep, since he's a bit too frail for switching in, otherwise.


    [​IMG]

    Loki (Scrafty) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Crunch
    - Rain Dance

    When I'm not leading with Raikou, I usually lead with Scrafty. Depending on what the opponent sends out, he can do one of two things: Rain Dance so I can switch to Kingdra/Raikou or start bulking up so I can camp out and Crunch/Drain Punch everything. He has incredible staying power, especially against physically inclined teams, thanks to Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Shed Skin/Leftovers. Once he's had a few Bulk Ups, nothing short of a Whirlwind/Roar or a special sweeper that he has a weakness to will force him out.

    When I'm not leading with him, I usually switch him in either when I need to refresh my rain or counter special walls/psychic types.


    [​IMG]

    Tlaloc (Volcarona) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Hurricane
    - Giga Drain

    With a bulky stat spread, Lum berry (because Volcarona switches into a lot of status effects), Giga Drain, and Rapid Spin/Wish support, Volcarona actually has enough bulk to stick around and pull off a potential Quiver Dance sweep. Bug Buzz is an excellent STAB move, while Hurricane abuses the rain and provides additional coverage. Meanwhile, Giga Drain provides a final bit of coverage to take care of Rock/Ground/Water threats and a much-needed opportunity to recover a few HP.


    [​IMG]

    Neptune (Kingdra) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SAtk / 164 Spd
    Mild Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Rain Dance

    With Swift Swim at his disposal, this guy can obliterate pretty much anything that takes neutral damage from Water type, both special and physical, thanks to his mixed spread. He only has two major downfalls: Priority moves and anything that hides behind a substitute and uses Dragon Dance. (Also, I kind of hate the Life Orb recoil, because it puts a timer on his sweeping potential and makes him even more vulnerable than he already was to priority moves and substitute-users. If anyone has suggestions for alternate items I could use for him, that would be glorious.)


    [​IMG]

    Ganesh (Donphan) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 4 Def / 152 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    Donphan serves a few roles on the team. Primarily, he's around to rapid spin away entry hazards (which my team is rather weak to), use Earthquake, and revenge kill dragons (and the occasional grass/flying type) with Ice Shard. He can also set up Stealth Rock if I'm having trouble with an opponent who switches too much. He fits in my team better than other Earthquake-using Rapid Spinners because of his resistance to electric type and decent offensive presence (not to mention access to Ice Shard), though he does unfortunately share the rest of the team's difficulty dealing with Grass types.


    [​IMG]

    Lakshmi (Vaporeon) @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Wish
    - Scald
    - Rest
    - Rain Dance

    Vaporeon can serve two roles, depending on the circumstances. Either she can serve as support by setting up Rain Dance and Wish for the benefit of her more offensive teammates, or in a pinch, she can just flat-out wall things. She can alternate between Scald and Rest to burn the opponent and then stall by healing. She also has enough bulk that she can easily toss in a Rain Dance every 8 turns to power up Scald and shield her from status conditions.

    ________________________________


    Here is an importable code for the team, if anyone wants to test run it before giving feedback:
    Show Hide
    Lakshmi (Vaporeon) @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Wish
    - Scald
    - Rest
    - Rain Dance

    Ganesh (Donphan) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 100 Atk / 4 Def / 152 SDef
    Sassy Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    Zeus (Raikou) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Rash Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Thunder
    - Weather Ball
    - Aura Sphere
    - Hidden Power

    Tlaloc (Volcarona) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Hurricane
    - Giga Drain

    Neptune (Kingdra) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 SAtk / 164 Spd
    Mild Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Rain Dance

    Loki (Scrafty) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Shed Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 8 Atk / 248 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Bulk Up
    - Drain Punch
    - Crunch
    - Rain Dance


    Also, for anyone who is curious, here is my teambuilding process and a list of some of the major changes this team has gone through:
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    I knew from the start that I wanted to run a rain dance team with Swift Swim Kingdra at it's center.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    To set up (and abuse) rain, I put in Tornadus-T with Rain Dance and Hurricane. I also included a Latias with the intention of having her set up dual screens to defend the team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Then, I threw a Weather Abuser Raikou and Volcarona into the mix to form the offensive core with Kingdra.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Finally, after examining my team's strengths and weaknesses, I finished with a Bulk Up Scrafty to add some physical bulk and cover a lot of my team's weaknesses.

    ___________________________

    But of course, a team is never complete after the first try, so I've made some changes along the way:

    [​IMG]
    One of the first changes I made was switching out Duel Screens Latias for a Forretress with Rapid Spin, after realizing my team had a glaring weakness to entry hazards and very little use for duel screen support.

    [​IMG]
    Later, though, I swapped Forretress out for a Donphan, who performed a similar role, but with an electric resistance and a better offensive presence (plus Ice Shard).

    [​IMG]
    Around the same time, I also swapped out Tornadus-T for a much bulkier Vaporeon, who could support the team with Wish or wall opponents with Rest/Scald/Hydration.

    Leaving my team where it's at now:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

  2. Veofiend

    Veofiend

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    This appears to be a pretty effective team. I like how you use rain dance instead of Drizzle. Really adds to the uniqueness. Normally Volcarona would have Morning Sun to recover HP but since your team is a Rain Dance team, it hinders Volcarona's healing. I would recommend a wisher like Vaporeon if you're looking to give Volcarona some more staying power. If your forretress is accomplishing very little, you might want to toss in Starmie with Thunder and Rapid Spin or Ferrothorn if you really need a stealth rocker and Tornadus helps sponge it's fighting weakness while the rain helps it sponge fire attacks. I'm sort of new to team rating so I hope this helped you out. Impressive team I must say.
  3. Stew0The0Jew

    Stew0The0Jew

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2011
    Messages:
    88
    Volcarona gets roost in bw2 so you could run a bulky set with roost

    also rain dance is inferior to drizzle politoed, no matter how you look at it
  4. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Thanks for the tips! I'm going to try running a bulky set on Volcarona with Roost instead of Fiery Dance and see how that goes. Here's the set I'm looking at using:

    [​IMG]
    Tlaloc (Volcarona) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Hurricane
    - Roost

    I'm also playing around with ideas for Wish/Rapid Spin support. Right now, I'm thinking of swapping out Forretress and Tornadus for Donphan and Latias. Here are the sets I'm contemplating at the moment:

    [​IMG]
    Donphan @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
    Impish Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock

    This is pretty much what I was trying to do with Forretress, except Donphan pulls it off much better due to having a decent attack stat and STAB Earthquake. Also, he can Roar out set-up sweepers.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Damp Rock (or Light Clay?)
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Wish
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Reflect
    - Rain Dance

    Latias is mostly around to hand out some much needed Wish recovery and Reflect protection.


    ...Let me know what you guys think of those sets. I'm feeling pretty confident about their movesets, but I'm not really sure what items to give them. I'm about to head to bed, now, and will be out having amusement park shenanigans with my family, tomorrow, but once I get home, I'll test out the changes and see how they work. Until then, feel free to suggest changes to my proposed changes!
  5. DaveScottMustaine

    DaveScottMustaine

    Joined:
    May 30, 2012
    Messages:
    82
    Swift Swim team again, like in the old times, great idea buddy! I see your team, then I think... why are you don't abuse Swift Swim at all? Ludicolo, Kabutops, Floatzel, Omastar and all of those Swift Swim pokes out there. So, think about it...

    Ludicolo: This dude is the devil himself. With Swift Swim, he acts like a Prankster mon. I remember that, when Swift Swim + Drizzle isn't banned, Ludicolo gaves me uncountable headaches. That fucking SubSeed set was really hard to counter.

    Floatzel: One of the bests CB sweepers that I've ever seen. STAB Waterfall + Rain support + Choice Band addition = OHKO almost everything that don't resist it. I guess that nothing in the actual metagame can get safely check floatzel (Water Absorbs/storm Drain pokes are the only ones).

    Kabutops: The graphic description of a sweeper. Force a switch, then set up with a SW and the match is in your pocket. No more explanations, you just won. Kabutops has a great coverage movepool, and the most feared combination between brutal physical power and speed.

    Well, I hope you think about it, it seems to be a great team, but there are some pokes that I really don't like. Drizzle Volcarona is just a waste of poke. Yeah, I know Hurricane is a great move on Volca, but every single Water-type move will kill it. Hope it helped you dude (:
  6. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Thanks! I really enjoy the coverage that Volcarona adds to the team, despite the defensive shortcomings, so I think he'll be sticking around. (Not to mention he's one of my favorite favorite Pokemon and is just plain fun to use.)

    I absolutely LOVE Kabutops, though, and have been debating between using Kabutops or Donphan as my Rapid Spinner. I briefly tried a Kabutops on this team to very little avail, but I'm tempted to try a different spread and see how it works. Unfortunately, that would leave me with a gaping electric weakness a mile wide, and some steel trouble as well. Yikes! Still, it is mighty tempting, because I love swift swim and horseshoe crabs are awesome.
  7. ProfessorShen

    ProfessorShen

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1
    This team is pretty similar to a rain dance team I've been working on lately, but your version seems to be a lot better. I'm a huge fan of using Raikou and Volcarona on rain teams. Good work!
  8. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    At this stage you have 3 Pokemon with Rain Dance, which one of them is not able to abuse it. Namely Scrafty. Scrafty has a HUGE problem, it can set up rain for only 5 turns. And you will waste one switching. And its movepool is not adequate. In this case you have 3 options:

    a) Keeping Shed Skin. Removing Rain Dance in order to add Rest.
    b) Changing to Moxie, which I think will be great since the team is offensive. Change Bulk Up for Dragon Dance and finally taking off Rain Dance and adding Ice Punch, for the dragons.
    c) Taking Scrafty away and switching to a swift swim Pokemon.

    But where does the rain dance from Scrafty go, maybe put it of Raikou and perhaps take off Weather Ball? That way you you abuse Thunder accuracy. Facing a Ninetales you would pull off Rain faster, because you are faster and the Fire move would do nothing...

    Damp Rock on Raikou might be a good idea.

    The reason why your Tornadus is NOT setting up Rain and surviving is because it is really frail. So you just might want to change him for a Ludicolo that is bulkier and can setup Rain Dance and abuse it.

    The Donphan you mentioned before should be used, but instead of Roar try Ice Shard.
    Try Volcarona with Bold Nature 252 HP and 252 Def. Use:
    -Quiver Dance
    -Hurricane
    -HP Ground
    -Giga Drain

    Rad right? (but it works and it can cure your Jellicent problem while still taking hits)

    PS: I played something like 12 matches with this team, but when I changed to Ludicolo I saw a huge change.
    Sets:
    Ludicolo @ Life Orb
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 SpA / 132 Spe
    Trait: Swift Swim
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Att)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Beam
    - Rain Dance
  9. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Thanks for the detailed feedback!

    Scrafty and Raikou have actually been my two most reliable team members by a long shot, so far, so I'm a bit reluctant to make major changes to them. I do agree that Rain Dance on Scrafty is perhaps not the most ideal location, but I feel like it would actually be a lot less ideal on Raikou, since Raikou is a bit frail for setting up and seems to operate just fine even out of the rain. Scrafty may not be able to abuse the rain, but he certainly has enough bulk to set it up and survive to see another turn.

    In lieu of your very good point that I should abuse the rain a bit more, though, I do think I might drop a Vaporeon on the team instead of Latias. I was originally thinking Latias because I figured Levitate would help my otherwise rather grounded team... but I think Vaporeon will abuse the rain and pass Wish a lot better than Latias, which is probably more important than an Earthquake immunity in the grand scheme of things. If anyone has ideas for a Vaporeon spread/moveset or opinions on Latias vs. Vaporeon, feel free to suggest. If I run Vaporeon, I definitely want to have Wish and Rain Dance, but I'm uncertain about the best way to construct a set around those. This is my closest approximation at the moment:

    [​IMG]
    Vaporeon @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Wish
    - Scald
    - Protect
    - Rain Dance

    I really like the idea of Giga Drain on Volcarona, also! Definitely going to test that one out. Same for Ice Shard on Donphan-- you are a life-saver for pointing out that one of my Pokemon actually learns a priority move, because I somehow managed to overlook that!

    I do like that Ludicolo set and suspect it would fit pretty nicely into the team, barring one problem: I can't stand Ludicolo. While I certainly don't take a "dump all my favorites on a team and call it done" approach to teambuilding (thank goodness, since my favorites are Ninjask and Archeops), I do find it pretty silly to use a Pokemon I just flat-out dislike on a team, just for the sake of utility. Not that I have many Pokemon I flat-out dislike... but Ludicolo is unfortunately one of the few.

    Tomorrow when I'm not half asleep, I'm planning on doing some test runs using new movesets and Donphan plus Latias/Vaporeon. Once that happens, I should have a clearer idea of which changes I'm going to make permanent. Once I do, I will update my original post to reflect those changes.
  10. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Good luck, I am traveling since yesterday and using 3G.

    I will be back by the end of the week and I will be proud to test your team!

    I have NEVER seen a ground move do more than 60% on a Vaporeon, but the immunity is really nice. I must advise you that Ice Shard on Donphan does SQUATS, it 2HKO Salamence and OHKO after SR damage. Is not stab, base 40 power coming from a mediocre attack.

    Vaporeon with Hydration can abuse rest. In my opinion use Rest over protect, you will lose your ability to scout but win the ability to fully recover. Instead of Wish/Protect.

    I believe Latias is inferior to Vaporeon since you can use Hydration and Rest to fully recover and come back awake, which is always a pro.

    Vaporeon @ Damp Rock
    Trait: Hydration
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Wish
    - Scald
    - Rain Dance

    I am concerned with the status of your team.

    You are using Raikou for special sweeper and abuse Thunder accuracy.
    Donphan to lay rocks and spin rocks. And revenge kill dragons.
    Kingdra as Physical Sweeper and rain abuser.
    Volcarona for synergy, powerful Special Sweeper and abuse Hurricane accuracy.
    Scrafty as a physical sweeper that is able to set rain safely.
    What else now???

    Support to set Rain:
    Kingdra
    Scrafty
    What else?

    Ok now the point is, I was thinking that instead of Donphan you should try Ferrothorn, because is makes a FGW core and the rain reduced the power of fire moves. It walls dragons, and the Outrages threatening Kingdra could be directed to Ferrothorn which with Gyro Ball owns some stuff. You will lose the rapid spin support, but the only Pokemon weak to it in your team is Volcarona. But you could test it out. When you decide on whether you will use Vaporeon or Latias, tell us for further help. ;) loving this team

    EDIT: Ignore the stupidity I said about Ferrothorn. I searched stuff and Tentacruel looks a pretty nice Pokemon for setting up rain, it is physically defensive and is able to rapid spin. I think it could fit your team for Donphan. Than on the last spot you might use Latias! Levitate will give an EXCELLENT synergy with Tentacruel.

    Tentacruel @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Scald
    - Rain Dance

    For a better usage of Rain maybe Toxicroak instead of Scrafty? Since Toxicroak can set rain, keeps the Fighting type and has Dry Skin for recovery in rain.

    By there you would have 4 rain setup mons. Which gives plenty of opportunity to setup.

    Those were ideas, and they are totally disorganized, I will keep checking. When I get back from traveling I will test stuff. GL with your team.
  11. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Splendid! You are all kinds of helpful.

    I spent all morning testing out the team with Donphan/Vaporeon added, and it seems to be running MUCH more smoothly. I updated my first post to reflect the changes I've made, since I like them and will be keeping them around until something better comes along.

    Point well taken regarding Vaporeon and rest-- I've been using the Protect set, which has been working splendidly, but I'm fairly certain Rest will work even better. Vaporeon doesn't really need the scouting ability, since she comes in for three things: Setting up rain, passing along Wish, or stalling. All of which she has proven to be quite good at. I do believe she'll be sticking around.

    Donphan hasn't seen as much use during my practice runs as Vaporeon, but he fits into the team infinitely better than Forretress did! I'm definitely open to suggestions on how to optimize Donphan or Pokemon I could use in its place. I definitely like having Donphan around, but he's still not one of the more solid members of the team.

    I actually think the most viable option for that spot besides Donphan might be Landorus-T. He doesn't learn Rapid Spin, but in a pinch, I can just pass Wish to a full HP Volcarona to counteract Stealth Rock. Landorus-T would be a good counter to a lot of the things I've been having trouble with (grass types and things with Earthquake), albeit at the cost of Rapid Spin and a useful (if only for revenge killing) priority move. For now, I'm keeping Donphan around, but thoughts regarding Donphand vs. Landorus-T vs. something else entirely would certainly be helpful.

    Tentacruel is also an option, though that would probably involve switching Vaporeon back out for Latias, and I've found Vaporeon to be a significantly more effective Wish passer, at least in the context of this team. (I do like that Tentacruel moveset you shared, though. Although I'm not the biggest Tentacruel fan, I'm definitely going to stash that one away in case it fits into a future revamp.)

    I do like that Toxicroak can actually utilize the rain, but I think I'll keep Scrafty around for a couple reasons:
    1.) Scrafty's natural bulk makes it easier to lead and set up with. Toxicroak has significantly lower defenses, plus a weakness to ground type and no access to Shed Skin.
    2.) I actually like the fact that Scrafty can operate both in and out of the rain-- it keeps me from being completely screwed if I don't have the chance to set up my rain (or if a weather starter comes in on me, since I frequently use Scrafty to counter Tyranitar and Abomasnow).

    (I also just happen to really like Scrafty, but I also happen to really like Latias and am not using her either, so I guess that's not the biggest factor ever.)

    Alright, I think that's everything, for now. I'll keep this updated as I continue testing/readjusting my team. Thanks again for all the help thus far!
  12. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Mammoth + Pig FTW

    Mamoswine is a viable substitute for Donphan, that you will OHKO stuff weak to ice (that is not called Dragonite with Multiscale). It has the electric immunity, it just is not able to spin. Your Volcarona is the only thing extremely weak to it. And you can Wish for it.

    Mamoswine @ Life Orb/Focus Sash
    Trait: Thick Fat (is it released?)
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake
    - Endeavor/Rain Dance
    - Stealth Rock

    This set is one of the sets from Smogon. At least the endeavor and Focus Sash. He is one of the best endeavor users in the whole game! Immune to Hail and Sandstorm that break sashes. At full health it most likely will lay rocks and ice shard after endeavor is for Killing.
    The other two moves are a simple modification I made. Rain Dance+Life Orb, using Life Orb I recommend running Jolly Nature since it outspeeds stuff in the 100 Speed with few speed investment.

    So if you feel Donphan is not doing a lot, try Mamo he is awesome (a Mammoth+Pig can't go wrong)

    EDIT: Thick Fat is released, BUT you cannot use 4thGEN Move Tutor Moves or Egg Moves, ruining the SR thing and the Endeavor too. So Snow Cloak is indeed the best option. This kind of bugs me, but you can give a try as it will surely increase your dragon slaughter and revenge killing.
  13. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Oh, I really like that Mamoswine! I will definitely test that out and see whether Mamoswine or Donphan works better in practice. I have a hunch that Mamoswine will help a lot, since my team has some dragon issues (as Kingdra and Raikou are both too vulnerable to come in on a dragon that's choiced or has already had the chance to set up).

    I did a bit of research on Thich Fat. It looks like it has been released, but it can't be used alongside any egg moves or Gen IV move tutor moves, which means Stealth Rock would be off limits alongside Thick Fat. (Endeavor actually isn't off-limits, I don't think. It's available via move tutor in BW2, so it would just be Stealth Rock that's off-limits.) This leaves two viable options: Use Snow Cloak instead of Thick Fat, so I can at least abuse opponents' Hail in a pinch, or replace Stealth Rock with... something. Would any of these be viable replacements for Stealth Rock:

    -Roar: To keep opponents from setting up on me, although this would be less useful without entry hazards set up
    -Toxic: For either wearing down or scaring out opponents
    -Rock Slide: More offensive and less strategic, but it gets useful coverage
    -Rain Dance: Giving me the ability to run the Endeavor set and still support the team with rain

    I do really like the idea of running Thick Fat, because it gives Mamoswine a more reliable defensive advantage than Snow Cloak (which only protects me if I get a rare chance to abuse an opponent's hail), and I suspect it will catch a lot of opponents off-guard, because people expect Mamoswine to run Snow Cloak. However, I'm not completely married to the idea of running Thick Fat, so if Stealth Rock Proves to be more important than Thick Fat, I'm happy to run Snow Cloak instead.
  14. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte I could hear the sirens sound
    is an official Team Rateris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,006
    Lol actually Mamoswine gets Stealth Rock as a tutor move so it and Thick Fat are compatible.

    I think your Kingdra set is kind of questionable- I never really like the idea of MixeDra. Its stats aren't high enough for it to be able to abuse both, even in the rain, which won't help anyway because of the five turn limit. Also, while you're setting up your own weather, others can set up on you too, and although you will get the speed boost after rain your opponent might grab some boosts also. To fix this, I would recommend DDDra, because it works well out of rain and is really hard to stop once it gets going.
    [​IMG]
    Kingdra @ Leftovers/Chesto Berry
    144 HP, 160 Atk, 40 Sp D, 164 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    ~Rain Dance/Rest
    ~Waterfall
    ~Outrage/Rest
    ~Dragon Dance

    I used this set in my own old Rain Dance team, and it was quite reliable. Of course, you have the burden of setting up rain in this set, so you lose Rest. It is an option to give Rain Dance to someone else so Kingdra can get heal itself, or you can ditch one of its two STABs, in that case I'd recommend ditching Outrage. The reason why this set is magical is because rain is its catalyst, not its front rank. This set doesn't need rain to work- but it does need rain to set up. Once you're at +3 or +4, you'll outspeed everything anyway so you won't need swift swim any more, and you'll be powerful enough to OHKO half the tier so you won't need rain boost any more. The complicated EV set is to ensure that Kingdra can take a lot of hits as it sets up, without losing too much immediate power.

    EDIT: I will point out that +6 Kingdra in Rain can OHKO everything in the tier bar Quagsire and Ferrothorn with either Waterfall or Outrage in the rain.
    I hope this helped!
  15. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    69
    Rock slide looks viable. But your team NEEDS SR to turn those pesky 2HKOs into KOs.

    Run your team on Marriland 5th Gen team builder and you will find your main TYPING weaknesses. Your team has a really bulky support core, that is also mostly offensive except for Vaporeon and Donphan. I would suggest using a completely physically defensive Donphan. Improving its natural bulk it is a monster. It takes 33% damage from MixApe's CC. Now that the team seems a bit more solid we can improve the details, this is a serios problem! Ferrothorn walls half of your team, meaning that the only damaging him are named Scrafty and Raikou. Anyway to fix this you might want to have HP Fire in Kingdra instead of Surf. Or even Rest on Kingdra, with a Chesto Berry! Then you improve the longevity of Kingdra. Waterfall and Draco Meteor already give a very effective coverage.

    Special walls like that Blissey BITCH and all her family (including Happiny). Once your Scrafty faints you are half screwed... One more reason to have a Mamoswine instead of Donphan. Mamo has a huge amount of Attack and you will only miss the Donphan's rapid spin. Mamo can carry Superpower. Snow Cloak is superior simply because you need SR, if you have rain up you have a similar effect to Thick Fat!

    So Superpower, Earthquake, Ice Shard and SR.

    PS: You could abuse Rain more BTW. :)

    EDIT: Electrolyte is correct you can have SR and thick fat, so give it a try! This team is getting pretty neat. Physical walls say hello to Kingdra. Kingdra can still OHKO with this spread. MixDra is awesome, anyway try rest over surf and good luck. Rain Dance is just like a DD boosting speed at +2 and boosting Waterfall power +1. It is insane, there is no actual need for using Dragon Dance when you have Rain Dance which is not only a boost for Kingdra but for the Volc, Raikou, Vaporeon and likes... So yeah...
    Kingdra rocks with Rain Dance, even though focusing on Physical or Special is always good. Try out for the set of Electrolyte. I still think that Rain Dance is complete ownage and there is no need for DD.
  16. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Ohman, all these new Kingdra options sound pretty promising! I appreciate that switching him over to a physical attacker will give me the chance to invest in a little more bulk, especially since the rest of the team has rather specially offensive leanings. I'm going to test out this set and see what happens:

    [​IMG]
    Neptune (Kingdra) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Swift Swim
    EVs: 36 HP / 252 Atk / 220 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage
    - Rest
    - Rain Dance

    I'm a little worried that this set will make it harder for me to face stall teams that like to switch between physical and special walls (SkarmBliss and their friends), but it seems promising enough to test out! What is there to lose? If the new set hurts more than helps, I can always just revert back to the old mixed set.

    As for the counters that Doom Dawg brought up:

    -Ferrothorn doesn't actually give me that much trouble. In addition to fighting type moves from Raikou and Scrafty, I can hit it with neutral Bug or Flying damage from Volcarona, which is pretty formidable after a Quiver Dance or two (which I'm pretty sure to get in, since Ferrothorn is generally rather easy to set up on with Volcarona).
    -Special Walls caused me a LOT of trouble in the past, and still are a bit tricky for me to take down. I suspect having Mamoswine around will be a big help with that, as well as possibly putting a slightly more physical spin on Kingdra.

    Definitely going to try out Thick Fat on Mamoswine! Thanks for the heads up! Also, I like the idea of including Superpower over Endeavor to help with special walls. From the testing I've done so far, Mamoswine has been operating mostly as a bulky revenge killer, which Superpower seems more effective for than Endeavor.
  17. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

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    69
    Endeavor is only effective with focus sash...
  18. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

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    Tornadus-T is a fantastic pokemon in the rain, and he can set it up for your team as well. opposing rain teams will not enjoy facing it, and you have two relatively useless pokemon on your rain team in Volcarona/Scrafty. They don't really benefit from rain, and Volcarona struggles greatly against stealth rock. Volcarona needs a bit of support from the rest of the team to be effective, and you don't have enough team members or moveslots to support both Volcarona and the Rain Dance theme.

    Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 212 Spd / 44 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Hurricane
    - U-turn
    - Focus Blast / Superpower
    - Rain Dance

    I would also try to fit in a Ludicolo as your team struggles to take Ground/Elec moves. Although he doesnt resist electric, his great special defense paired with giga drain /leech seed and wish should allow him to live longer and continuously take them. A moveset of Scald/ Leech Seed/ Substitute / Ice Beam @ Swift Swim, should allow him be one of the more annoying pokemon your opponent has to play against.
  19. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

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    Jun 23, 2012
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    LOL he used to have Tornadus-T, it is too frail Chimpakt. He is reluctant to have Ludicolo, he does not like it, what can I do? LOL

    Ludicolo FTW
  20. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Yep, Doom Dawg is correct. Thanks for the suggestions, though.

    In other news, that all-physical Kingdra spread I've been testing out is working nicely! As I predicted, he lost a lot of wall-breaking ability, and the Outrage confusion can sometimes cause trouble, but overall, I like the added staying power this set has.

    Also, I'm still playing around with that last spot on my team, and I'm feeling undecided as to which Pokemon to keep around in the long run. Here are the two I've been using:

    [​IMG]
    Nootaikok (Mamoswine) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Ice Shard
    - Stealth Rock
    - Superpower
    - Earthquake

    Mamoswine has been working nicely as a revenge killer because of his access to STAB Earthquake and Ice Shard (both of which complement my team very nicely, especially because of the priority on Ice Shard), but he still doesn't seem to stick around long enough to do much. He seems sturdy, but his typing and less than magnificent defensive stats tend to result in him being wiped out before I'm done with him. He's not frail by any means, but he's vulnerable enough that I rarely if ever have the opportunity to both set up Stealth Rocks AND revenge kill with him.

    [​IMG]
    Martu (Landorus-Therian) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 196 HP / 96 Atk / 216 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Smack Down
    - U-turn
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Earthquake

    I haven't tested Landorus in as many battles as Mamoswine, but thus far, he's proven to be a bit more resilient, albeit at the loss of a bit of versatility. I'm open to the idea of changing around this moveset to either include Stealth Rock or to get better coverage to balance out the team. Earthquake is a necessity on my team, and Smack Down is a big help when dealing with flying and levitating enemies. Hidden Power Ice is for coverage, and U-Turn is for momentum-- I'm open to suggestions regarding moves that might work better than those two.

    Thus far those two seem to be the most viable options for that last slot on the team. The team seems to operate pretty strongly with either one, but each has its advantages and disadvantages as I mentioned above.

    The lack of Rapid Spin has definitely been noticeable, but the team actually seems to work better powering through entry hazards than pausing to spin them away.

    Oh and by the way, Vaporeon might be the best thing to ever happen to this team. She has saved my team's collective butts more times than I can count.
  21. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

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    How are you dealing with opposing stealth rock? I would say that maybe you could use Rotom-W Volt-Switch for a Volt-Turn strategy with Landorus. Even though I cannot see anyway you can deal with Scarfed Tornadus and Thundurus once Kingdra is dead...

    Rotom-W could take the place of Raikou... Provides you one more Grass weakness, but much less ground ones as it is the levitate user you wanted. It can also OBLITERATE stall teams with Trick.

    Rotom-W @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Volt Switch
    Thunder(bolt)
    Hidden Power Ice
    Trick

    Yes it fills all the holes, even the lost special part from the Kingdra. It works great as a Voltturn engine. Hidden Power Ice for the Therians, Dragons and Gliscor.
    Trick is to stall stuff like: Tentacruel, Blissey, Vaporeon, Espeon, and to break Baton Passing chains.

    Volt-Switch and thunderbolt can be exchanged by Hydro Pump which is Rain Boosted.
  22. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2012
    Messages:
    14
    Oh, that's a really snazzy idea! I'll have to try that out. It took me a while to find a mythological name that fits a washing machine, but hopefully my nicknaming endeavor will not be in vain!

    I'm testing out Rotom-W right now-- I'll post updates after I get a better feel for it. I certainly like the idea, regardless of how silly a washing machine looks on a loosely-mythology-themed team.

    For now, my only question is: How viable would it be to use Hidden Power Flying on Landorus in place of Hidden Power Ice? It's tempting, because it's his only flying STAB option other than Fly, and it would have useful coverage of some types I often struggle with (Grass and Fighting).
  23. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
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    I never seen it before, so I do not know. I thought it had Acrobatics. You might invent a set for it, LOL.


    EDIT: Well Forretress can never be a Storm God too, LOLOLOL
  24. Crowspeaker

    Crowspeaker

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    Jul 4, 2012
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    Alright, after a bit of testing, I've determined that Raikou suits the team way better than Rotom-W. Raikou's versatility is too important to give up.

    I'm still enjoying this Landorus-T, though. I've been trying out HP Flying, but I think my Special Attack is too low to do much with any Hidden Power. I might just nix the HP entirely and see how Stealth Rock works, since I think this guy might actually be sturdy enough to set up Stealth Rock!
  25. Doom Dawg

    Doom Dawg

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
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    I finally got to test the team! I tried with Donphan and Mamoswine, and in two matches I struggled against Conkeldurr. I lost both matches, the only answer to Conkeldurr is the Hurricane in Volcarona. And really hard hitting Special Attacks! I have no suggestions, because Raikou loses almost all its HP with a Conkeldurr priority Mach Punch. It is indeed sad.

    I also found out that after Scrafty dies Blissey and Chansey are a lot of problems to the team! Earthquake from Mamoswine and the Outrage from Kingdra are the only options but some Blisseys invest in Defense and those are a pain in the ass...

    I am missing Steel types on the team, they are really valuable and Dragonites after 1 DD plow through this team like a hot knife in butter... Well those are just the weaknesses. I am trying to modify some stuff and see how it goes.

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