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Sub For your Life (Peaked at #3)

Discussion in 'Past Gen Teams' started by Upstart, Sep 27, 2010.

  1. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    480
    Introduction:

    Hello and welcome Smogonites. With generation 4 coming to an end I have decided to retire until 5th gen is up and going. As a farewell gift I would like to leave you with my most successful team that had gotten me into the top ten slot numerous times and peaking at 3 on the leaderboard at around 1700 Cre. The team was made pre-heracross but seems to have the seem success even with him introduced. The team gets its name from my use of double Substitute Abusers


    Team Building:

    The team began with me wanting to use Rhyperior. Although I perfer Rhydon aesthetically, Rhyperior had the power to tear through the UU tier. I tried several sets; in the end it came down between CBperior and SubPerior. However the Sub set won as it alleviated some prediction skills while also having a variety of pokemon to set-up on.


    [​IMG]

    The next member of the team had to have great synergy with Rhyperior; either lure in stuff for rhyperior or take out his counters. I found that grass types were able to remove water type pokemon and lure in fire pokemon. Sceptile was the first choice, but in the end was to frial to constantly be switching in. As a result I decided to go to test out Torterra as he would be able to take some hits. I instantly wanted to use him as a substitute user along side Rhyperior to make a very powerful subbing dou.


    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Looking at this dou I knew I needed a lead. More specifically, a lead to set up stealth rock and get the ball rolling. However I wanted something bulky enough to come back later to either set up rocks again or actually contribute to the battle. After alot of tests Uxie was choosen. Since then I would consider her one of if not the best leads I have ever used.


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Now with a lead I wanted to focus on patching up some holes. Unfortunately Torterra was not a one hundred percent Milotic counter. The sea serpent could outspeed Torterra and wall Rhyperior all day. As a result I added Toxicroak. Toxicroak thanks to his ability could handle almost all (Dumb HP Psychic) Milotic. Toxicroak was just the perfect fit with Torterra and Rhyperior.



    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG]

    The next slot was probably the easiest as I copped out and utilized the houndoom to complete the CroakDoom combo. Houndoom further held the team together by giving a fire and psychic immunity, a means of specail attacking and by being decently fast.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]

    The team had settled into place. However I had a couple of issues and only one slot to fill it. Fast and usually frail pokemon such as Swellow and Alakazam were mutilating this team. I immediately added Spiritomb to handle these to threats. Ironically Spiritomb seemed to be just the pokemon I needed to handle many faster frail threats, spin block, and add nicely to the immunities and resistances of the team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    An Intimate Acquaintance


    [​IMG]
    Charity(F)(Uxie)@ Lum Berry
    Nature: Timid
    Evs: 6 HP/ 252 SpA/ 252 Spe
    Moveset:
    -Psychic
    -Thunderbolt/Grass Knot
    -Stealth Rock
    -Thunder Wave

    Moveset: Stealth Rocks is a must as it breaks sashes while also racking up residual damage. Thunderwave is an attempt to compensate for my slow team. Psychic was for stab and also for the various poison types running around (here is looking at you Venusaur). Grass Knot was added to handle the number of Rhyperior switches that I got. Lum Berry was added to take the sleep or any kind of status that I needed taken care of.
    Evs / Nature: Now I have seen many Mespirits invest in Bulk to be more like Uxie; but few Uxie invest in specail attack and speed to me more like Mespirit. I ran this set to aid in the lack of speed on this team. Both fast Stealth Rock and Twave were very important. To take advantage of Speed I wanted to hit at least decently hard so I moved the Evs into Specail Attack to handle the qwilfish leads.
    Contributions: Uxie does a couple things for the team. One she prevents most teams from getting spikes. Two she gets Stealth Rocks up. Three she Twave faster stuff. And four she absorbs status or hits allowing me to pivot to another Mon.



    [​IMG]

    Humility (F) (Torterra)@ Leftovers
    Nature: Adamant / Jolly
    Evs: 6 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
    Moveset:
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge
    -Wood Hammer
    -Substitute

    Moveset: Earthquake and Woodhammer make amazingly powerful stab moves while also having decent coverage. Stone Edge is able to round off the coverage in hitting flying types especailly. Substitute perfects the moveset of great coverage by easing prediction and allowing Torterra to go on a ramage of ripping through teams with her amazing coverage.
    Evs / Nature: Pretty basic idea of hit as hard as possible as fast as possible. I opted for the Adamant nature over Jolly as Jolly's damage output was a little lacking.
    Contributions: Torterra adds great resistances to the team especailly in the ground resistance. He takes out bulky waters that would hinder Croak and Perior. Lures in Weezing and other pokemon for my team to set up on.


    [​IMG]

    Temperance (M) (Rhyperior)@ Leftovers
    Nature: Adamant
    Evs: 132HP/210 Atk/168 Spe
    Moveset:
    -Earthquake
    -Stone Edge
    -Megahorn
    -Substitute

    Moveset: Similar to Torterra, Rhyperior uses a sub set. However Perior may be even more dangerous. With his stabs being the famous QuakeEdge combo he already has amazing coverage to go along side of his monstrous attack. Megahorn complets the coverage giving perfect coverage iirc. Once again Substitute eases prediction and allows for him to avoid status and such.
    Evs / Nature: Ironically on such a slow pokemon the first thing I invested in was speed to outspeed base 60s, specifically targetting Clefable and Weezing. I then aimed for 404 Subs as people still attempted to Seismic Toss my Rhyperior with their Registeels. This did however allow for many opportunities to set up. The rest of the Evs were put into attack to maximize damage output.
    Contributions: Rhyperior like everyone utilizes his resistances and immunties to aid the team. His normal resistances being amazingly useful in combatting Khan and Swellow. He works off of everyone else's counters to effectively sweep or power through obstacles.


    [​IMG]

    Diligence (M) (Toxicroak)@ Leftovers
    Nature: Jolly
    Evs: 6HP/252Atk/252Spe
    Moveset:
    -Swords Dance
    -Low Kick
    -Ice Punch
    -Sucker Punch

    Moveset: I hated this thing at first because I had been using Cross Chop which was nice enough to almost always miss. Once I learned that Croak learned Low Kick I immediately changed it. I really haven't seen the loss of power too much. Sucker Punch was added for priority to make up for the lack of speed. Sword Dance was added as without it Croaks damage out put is meh. The final move came down between GunkShot and Ice Punch. I love Gunkshots power but Ice Punch had better coverage. Stone Edge was already out as it didn't have the power of Gunkshot or the accuracy of Ice Punch. After missing my final Gunkshot I opted for Ice Punch and haven't looked back since. I use Leftovers over Life Orb as it is very important that Croak stays alive as his resistances are just to important.
    Evs / Nature: The Evs maximize attack and speed. Jolly because I hate losing base 80s.
    Contributions: Dry Skin! Honestly this ability allows Croak to handle bulky waters(not named Slobro) while also saving the team from being totally ravaged by rain. He also has several other useful resistances. He does lure in several pokemon to for other members to set up on. He also nicely handles Venusaur and Milotic, two very annoying pokes for the rest of the team. Finally he can set up and break down walls or clean up the rampage of the other monsters on the team.

    [​IMG]

    Patience (F) (Houndoom)@ Life Orb
    Nature: Hasty
    Evs: 4HP/252SpA/252Spe
    Moveset:
    -Fire Blast
    -Dark Pulse
    -Sucker Punch
    -Nasty Plot

    Moveset: Fire Blast and Dark Pulse are great stab for UU allowing Doom to tear down common defensive cores. Sucker Punch aids in the preventing revenge killings or at least guarenteeing a hit. Nasty Plot boosts the Specail Attack to allow for the breaking of walls or the clean up.
    Evs / Nature: Speed is crucial. Doom is like my only means of even speed tying with Leafeon and other potent base 95s. As such maximum speed was a given. As dugtrio usuage was low I opted to use max specail attack to deal as much damage as I could.
    Contributions: Houndoom was important in the absorbtion of WoW which was easy to get with so many weezings and such flying around, which also gave her a nice boost. He also breaks through physical walls holding other members back. And if need be he can clean up or sweep.

    [​IMG]

    Kindness (M) (Spiritomb)@ BlackGlasses
    Nature: Adamant
    Evs: 252HP/252Atk/4SpD
    Moveset:
    -Shadow Sneak
    -Pursuit
    -Sucker Punch
    -Return

    Moveset: The moveset is relatively the same as the standard Spiritomb. However I run return over Will-O-Wisp specifically for Houndooms and Toxicroaks thinking they can come in and set up. The other moves are intended to keep the opponent guessing whille allowing for priority and trapping. I also run Blackglasses over whatever the typical item is to get a boost in power while pretending to have a Choice Band.
    Evs / Nature: The basic Idea is to maximize attack and the ability to take hits as Spiritomb isn't outspeeding much. Thus Adamant 252 Hp 252 Atk was chosen
    Contributions: Spiritomb although the last member added has saved my neck more times then I can count. He has trapped or at the very least worn down pokemon that would otherwise eat my team for breakfast. He has great typing that allows for him to switch into attacks that others on the team would not be inclined to taking.

    Okay that's all from me. Hope you can RMT and I hope you enjoyed it!

    A Last Look
    [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    480
    Primary Threats:
    Rock Polish Rhyperior- If it can set up this think has a feild day with my team.
    Leafeon- Synthesis Sword Dance Set will beat my team if Houndoom and Uxie lose the speed tie.
    Arcanine- Jolly Life Orb set with HP Grass dismantles every member of the team.
    Sceptile- Choice Specs Leaf Storm hurts plain and simple. My grass resisters are relatively frail.
  3. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Not a bad team at all. Looks like you've found out of the attrocious offensive pair known as Houndoon+Torterra. Just a few suggestions:

    1) Toxicroak lacks Cross Chop, so I would replace Sucker Punch or Ice Punch (probebly Sucker Punch because it is easily predicted around) with Poison Jab. This way you have some kind of reliable STAB (low kick fails against light pokemon).

    2) I would suggest replace sub on Torterra or Rhyperior with Rock Polish, as it adds some offensive force to this team, which is seems to lack just a bit. They are also pretty much the same in terms of attack. I know this ruins the theme of the team, but it makes your offensive potential so much better and all that good stuff.

    3) Your not abusing sucker punch on Houndoom like you should =/ Either use the special nasty plot set, or switch to Hasty, and run an EV spread of 100 Atk, 184 SpA, and 224 speed.

    This is a really good team, hope I helped =]
  4. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Thank You for the rate Charmander
    1. Low Kick really doesn't cause any issues as many pokemon that Low Kick is used for are heavy such as Milotic and Registeel. Adding Poison jab would break the great coverage of fighting ice dark while not adding any power behind Croaks attacks.

    Edit: Venusuar and Heracross are enough to warrant Ice Punch

    2. Rock Polish sets are a once and done deal especailly when equiped with Life Orb. No decent opponent will let you set up a Rock Polish twice. The whole team focuses around the synergy they have together and I can't let some just go dying. The Substitutes maintain the bulk while most importantly easing prediction. This is key as with Super Effective hits Perior and Terra can KO almost the entire tier. Although their movesets are similar they play very differently. With completely different counters and such. Although I do like the RP sets in theory the actual practice of them leaves them too weakened to aid the team after set up and unlikely to set up in general.

    3. Houndoom is Hasty was a typo. And as I said the max speed is needed to help me take out Leafeon who poses a huge threat this team. I also mentioned I find the 100 Atk Evs useless as I have seen close to 0 Dugtrios.
  5. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    2,857
    Lol, this number thing is fun.

    1) Adding Poison Jab over Ice Punch doesn't really break any coverage...SP + LK/CC hits everything bar Toxicroak and Heracross, which won't really want to combat you anyway, and vice versa.

    2) Rock Polish sets do take out survivability, but it's not suicide like your making it sound like =/. You don't need to set up a RP anyway, one will sufice (jolly Rhyperior hits 418, while jolly torterra hits 464 (outspeeding scarftom) and adamant torterra hits 422).

    3) I guess you can use your current Houndoom set, but beating dugtrio is a lot more important than Leafeon (I don't see Leafeon that much, and always see Dugtrio, weird =/) IMO

    ~~~

    Eh, so I guess each to their own. Also don't forget abilities on your pokemon, especially ones that can have more than one. Good luck again lol.
  6. HART4FLOON

    HART4FLOON

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
    Messages:
    273
    I agree with Charmander that Dugtrio is more of a threat than Houndoom, and having that guaranteed OHKO on it is nice.

    On Torterra replace Stone Edge with Rock Slide, since Stone Edge doesn't hit noticeably harder.

    Other than that, I don't really have anything else to say besides congrats! :)
  7. Juice!

    Juice!

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    243
    I really like this team a lot. =)
    I don't have much to say, except seconding maybe Rock Polish on one of your Sub users, although it does kinda fuck with the theme. Although RP on Tort and then Rock Slide over Stone Edge might be kinda cool to try and flinch stuff. But I'm totally theorymon-ing here, go with what works best for you.

    Congrats on the sweet team!
  8. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent come at me winter
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
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    i recommend changing toxicroak's EV spread. 200 attack is enough, but keep the max speed. Those few hp evs really make a difference in taking ice beams from milotic and various rain sweepers. Also, have you considered synthesis instead of sub on torterra? It really, really helps with survivability, and i dont really like the idea of sub with recoil damage, but hey, its your call
  9. franky

    franky
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    simple defensive cores can kill you such as milotic + weezing + tomb. i'd actually give venusaur over torterra a chance because the dual sub combo is obsolete and really doesn't have any underlying synergy behind it. sub rhyperior by itself with paralysis support is good enough imo. venusaur adds a reliable switch in and way to combat with milotic throughout the entire match. go for the simple lo set with timid 252 spa / 252 spe and the movesets leaf storm / sludge bomb / sleep powder / synthesis

    hmmm i like expert belt plus try out this spread on uxie 224 Spe / 252 SAtk / 32 HP. this allows you to outpace rotom i believe, and the rest is to add on to its survivability. expert belt adds power to hurt rhyperior and omastar with energy ball. oh! use energy ball. also, expert belt feigns a scarf set so yea.. gl
  10. IronBullet93

    IronBullet93 Sitting on a cornflake
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderator
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    Hey,

    Yeah decent team, go with franky's Uxie spread but I think he forgot to mention that you need to change the nature to Timid to outspeed Rotom. Timid is also highly recommended for outspeeding suicide Qwiflish, who can otherwise set up 2 layers of Spikes, or one layer and Explode. Expert Belt is fine, but Lefties can be important as Uxie's basically your only hope against Rock Polish Rhyperior.

    Venusaur and Sceptile are big issues, your Grass resists take well over half from a Leaf Storm, and basically nothing can deal with SubSeed Sceptile. The Venusaur suggested by franky will take care of this weakness rather well, so I second it. Venusaur easily tanks Leaf Storms, gives your team a definite answer to Milotic, and sends any potential threats to bed early.

    Spiritomb is utter setup bait for so much stuff, I'd suggest replacing your current moveset with one of Pursuit/Dark Pulse/Shadow Sneak/Will-O-Wisp. Change the nature to Brave to avoid powering down Dark Pulse. This version is no longer dead weight against Rhyperior, Torterra and the like. Dark Pulse is reliable STAB off Tomb's decent Special Attack, and Will-O-Wisp destroys any physical sweep thinking Spiritomb is locked into Pursuit.

    Nice team, and gl!
  11. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

    Joined:
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    Franky and Ironbullet thanks for the rates.

    Uxie is timid I accidentally typed modest. As far as Venusaur goes he has been working realively well. He has greatly diminished my grass weakness while I find that I am alot weaker against ground attackers that torterra used to set up. However besides that I have had a much easier time with gatr and other threats that Venusaur easily manhandles.

    In regards to the Spiritomb set. Your set does indeed aid in preventing Rock Polish Rhyperior from eating my team. I am slightly hesistant as I have relied on sucker punch to revenge or weaken so much. Either way I am willing to test it out and see how it does. What Ev spread would you recommend for that tomb?
  12. franky

    franky
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    bs ib this nigga needs return otherwise houndoom eats his team for breakfast! i actually use the same spiritomb but with muscle band to increase all physical moves. try that out by the way, the only thing i'll suggest is spacing in will-o-wisp over shadow sneak or sucker punch. this will allow you to beat overzealous physical threats wanting to set up on a feigned "cb sucker punch" or something..

    gonna hand out a ludvisc on this thread, i like this team
  13. IronBullet93

    IronBullet93 Sitting on a cornflake
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    Yeah makes sense franky. HP Fighting is also viable I guess, hits Houndoom and shit, while still doing decent damage to Rhyperior. Dark Pulse is just an option since Shadow Sneak, Pursuit and unSTABed Return to lol damage to even remotely bulky stuff. Stick with Return and current EVs if you want, or go with Brave, same EVs and HP Fighting.
  14. Thund91

    Thund91

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    Lolwhat I thought only I ran Return on Tomb.

    Opposing Fire-types can cause you a shitload of problems. Standard Mixken can practically 6-0 this team on its own. Houndoom can switch in on Torterra and Toxicroak, set up a Nasty Plot as they run away, and sweep. As was mentioned before Hidden Power Grass Arcanine also causes problems. Moltres does too. Heck, even Ninetales can 6-0 this team with ease.

    SubPerior can already dismantle most teams on his own, and Houndoom + Toxicroak is an effective offensive core, so I'm gonna actually suggest that you go with Milotic in Torterra's spot.

    Milotic(F)@Leftovers
    Nature:Calm
    EVs:252HP/192Def/56SpD/8Spe
    -Surf
    -Hidden Power Grass
    -Toxic
    -Recover

    I went with Calm and SpD ev's to better handle Moltres, but you can go with max/max Bold if you want (with 8 Speed for Aggron). Milotic can handle pretty much every Fire-type in the tier. Milotic would also help you with your Azumarill and Feraligatr weakness. This is why I went with HP Grass > Ice Beam. Rhyperior already handles Altaria and you have Houndoom + Toxicroak + Uxie for Venusaur. I chose Toxic to help you stall out bulkier Pokemon like opposing bulky Waters and Miltank. Stuff like that that could become annoying. But you can mix and match with whatever you want.

    Hope this helps.
  15. NightShadow

    NightShadow

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    exactly what i need to say. maybe a mixed attacker like Nidoking. PLEASE TELL ME WHERE YOU GOT THE PICS!
  16. c.falcon-arrgh

    c.falcon-arrgh

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    uhh, he has an uxie with psychic, which handles mix blaziken pretty well.
    Switching torterra for milotic still doesn't solve his problem of being unable to handle strong leaf storms too.


    I believe that you should stick with franky's suggestion of venasaur over torterra, and switch spiritomb out for either SD feraligatr or CB azumarill. Since you mentioned spiritomb clearing off weakened pokemon, i believe you want someone with a priority move to fill the last slot. Both feraligatr and azumarill carries aqua jet, which is helpful in picking off weakened pokemon, while they both are able to handle almost all fire pokemon bar screwed up bullshit like thunderbolt magmortar that predicts your switch. The spin blocking ability of spiritomb is good, but not absolutely necessary, because your team doesn't rely on spike/stealth rock for main damage, and your uxie is bulky enough to setup again if its spinned away.

    [edit] oh yeah, i forgot to mention they both handles rock polish rhyperior and arcanine with hp grass nicely, as an extra plus point.
    I hope this helped... nothing much to say to a team that got you 1700 rating lmao.
  17. Upstart

    Upstart Copy Cat

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    @Thund although it would appear that I am torn apart by fire types I have one my own houndoom which already counters most fire types with his speed and immunity. Rhyperior handles none HP grass Arcanine. Houndoom switch into Spiritomb only to be 2hkoed by return and sucker punch. Not to mention that adding Milotic would exagerate my slight grass weakness.

    Now the Venusaur testing has been working pretty well however the loss of a ground resistants hurt alot. But it does greatly diminish my grass weakness.

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