Substitutions and Cooldown/Freeze/Sleep/etc

[Frosty]

A debate has recently blown up on #capasb on an uncodified ruling with no one knowing the proper ruling. A tournament match hinges on it (well the outcome does not but it will make a difference in the grand scheme of things) so I have resorted to coming here.

So Mon A orders a substitution telling it to do something on the use of a specific move and push actions back.

Mon B decides to use said move on an action Mon A is unable to act due to something like Cooldown or Freeze.

What happens? Does the substitution trigger and Mon B has to Struggle or something the next action or does it just not trigger at all? I thought it was the latter but several users arguing the former has cast doubt into my mind and there is no ruling in the handbook.

It would be nice to have this resolved ASAP.

Should subs be activated if the user of the sub is under cooldown? If yes, what happens with the push back operation?

And if the user of the action that calls for the sub is under cooldown?

same for freeze or sleep or etc

Please discuss.


ALSO, this issue regards a tourney match, so I will put the first question (Should subs be activated if the user of the sub is under cooldown? If yes, what happens with the push back operation?) on voting as soon as we get anything resembling a possible slate of options. Assuming no consensus is reached (if a consensus is reached by some miracle, I will just go ahead and put it on the handbook).

 

[Rainman Legends]

My interpretation is Cooldown is a placeholder with whatever move you put in parenthesis. If nothing is there, struggle is implied. And regarding to subs, if push back a1, a1 will become cooldown (move in sub)-->original action a1-->rest of string. That's always how I've interpreted it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

We had a lengthy discussion on irc about it and the cleanest interpretation seems to be the following.

Turn 1 cool down, being inherently different from t2 and t3 cool downs in that under no circumstance can it be avoided, is treated as a null action set. No orders are given or can be acted upon on the turn 1 cool down. Substitutes cannot be activated or responded to for that order. In effect, the Pokemon only has two actions in a round. Subs using the wording, "and x, first time only," and such to that extent, will only be applicable to turns where the Pokemon in question is not suffering from a Turn 1 cool down.

 

[Frosty]

Adding to the OP: I would like to know how you feel the rules should be interpreted now and how they should be like. First is a ruling for interpretation and the second for a possible change in the rules. The first part will go to voting asap. The second part (possible changes to the rules) will continue, as I kinda wanted to deal with this matter at some point.

 

[Dogfish44]

My thought on the matter, and more general things:

• If I have a substitution to "Use A if X", and my opponent's orders are "Y + Z ~ Cooldown (X) ~ N", the substitution shouldn't activate. They're not using X, they're using the 'move' Cooldown.
• However, if I have a Substitution that says "IF X, THEN Y AND Push Back", then the substitution should activate as much as is possible. That's to say, if I use A + B ~ Cooldown (C) ~ D, and my opponent uses X A2, my orders should become A + B ~ Cooldown (Y) ~ C.
• On a semi-related note, I'd also like to see "Cooldown" be interpreted as "Cooldown (Struggle)" in general terms. This means "Cooldown (Flamethrower) would be interpreted as "Flamethrower" for the sake of pushbacks, but unspecified struggles.

These are not currently rulings however - but just a quick summary of my thought =\

My views here are still the same. I'll update with A1 handling in a wee bit.

 

[Stratos]

We had a lengthy discussion on irc about it and the cleanest interpretation seems to be the following.

Turn 1 cool down, being inherently different from t2 and t3 cool downs in that under no circumstance can it be avoided, is treated as a null action set. No orders are given or can be acted upon on the turn 1 cool down. Substitutes cannot be activated or responded to for that order. In effect, the Pokemon only has two actions in a round. Subs using the wording, "and x, first time only," and such to that extent, will only be applicable to turns where the Pokemon in question is not suffering from a Turn 1 cool down.

this is what texas told me to post here

if u want ur sub to include turn 1 u can (have to) phrase it as a chance sub but its still doable so eat my balls

 

[VirajVora]

My opinion:

This completely relies on how Cooldown/Freeze is taken into account.

For some people No Action (Cooldown/Freeze/Die etc.) becomes Struggle only when reached the particular action (A2 in this case...) while some people easily mean No Action as Struggle as soon as ordered.

In detail,
1) First is No Action can be considered as Struggle when Action comes up. So in this case A1 stays as No Action. Now you cant push a action called "No Action". Like seriously you cant push a action no action. So the sub will not trigger at all.
2) Second is No Action can be considered as Struggle from the moment the orders are given out. So in this case, No Action becomes Struggle as soon as ordered. So in this case, we can treat orders as Struggle - Ice Punch - Thunder Punch. Now Struggle "can" be pushed in this case causing sub to activate and struggle A2.

It depends on how a person sees this. I see this as Scenario 2. However few users seen this as Scenario 1.

I think there must be a voting/discussion how to see the No Action as and all issues will be solved.



Next thing is I disagree Turn 1 Cooldown being treated differently from Turn 2 or Turn 3 Cooldown. You are only focusing it on obvious and not obvious. Now we cant make a Rule because its too obvious. Treating them differently seems half work for me. Even obvious things can have Loop holes like these coming and I think they must be treated the same.


(Oh man it took a lot of time and effort to remove those dots...)

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

My opinion:

This completely relies on how Cooldown/Freeze is taken into account.

1) First is No Action can be considered as Struggle when Action comes up. So in this case A1 stays as No Action. Now you cant push a action called "No Action". Like seriously you cant push a action no action. So the sub will not trigger at all.

Next thing is I disagree Turn 1 Cooldown being treated differently from Turn 2 or Turn 3 Cooldown. You are only focusing it on obvious and not obvious. Now we cant make a Rule because its too obvious. Treating them differently seems half work for me. Even obvious things can have Loop holes like these coming and I think they must be treated the same.

(Oh man it took a lot of time and effort to remove those dots...)

Cool down is a status like fully paralyzed, where there is no legal move that can be performed during that state. Unlike Frozen, Asleep, Poisoned or Paralyzed; which can be circumvented by certain moves like Flare Blitz, Sleep Talk / Snore and Rest (in that order).

My opinion is that: Since the cool down state does not allow a move to be used, any subs that would be triggered during that state would be ignored because the pokemon cannot perform an action in that state.

This is not the case with status like Frozen or Asleep, as there are ways that a pokemon could end up using a move in that state.

My ruling for the battle in question would be: Cool down ~ Ice Punch ~ Ice Punch.

 

[VirajVora]

Thank you for telling me this I remembered a vital point... Why didn't I remember this earlier ?

This will remove all issues till now...

Ok before getting on that, I'd ask everyone a question who are in favor of Cooldown - Ice Punch - Ice Punch...
What if I was frozen solid and I didn't had Flame Wheel or Sacred Fire or Scald and opponent don't have Fire type moves or Sunny Day or Scald and ordered Frozen - Ice Punch - Thunder Punch, would you give me same answer as it is of cooldown...
Or What is I was asleep and I didn't had Sleep Talk or Snore and opponent not having Wake-Up Punch and ordered Asleep - Ice Punch - Thunder Punch, would you still give me the same answer as of cooldown ?

I think most of you wouldn't...

You all are against Cooldown only on the assumption that Cooldown has no legal moves that can be used... Well guyz you all are so very wrong...

It not true that Cooldown has no legal useable move... There is one move which can be used even in the cooldown stage...

Detect combined with another move...

Yes, there is a move that overrides the need to say cooldown...

Detect can be used in cooldown...

So there was a possibility that Detect can be used during the Cooldown stage... Ofc not having learned Detect doesn't mean it has an exception... However Detect makes Cooldown equivalent to Sleep and Frozen...

Cooldown must be treated equal to Sleep and Freeze...

 

[Dogfish44]

Thank you for telling me this I remembered a vital point... Why didn't I remember this earlier ?

This will remove all issues till now...

Ok before getting on that, I'd ask everyone a question who are in favor of Cooldown - Ice Punch - Ice Punch...
What if I was frozen solid and I didn't had Flame Wheel or Sacred Fire or Scald and opponent don't have Fire type moves or Sunny Day or Scald and ordered Frozen - Ice Punch - Thunder Punch, would you give me same answer as it is of cooldown...
Or What is I was asleep and I didn't had Sleep Talk or Snore and opponent not having Wake-Up Punch and ordered Asleep - Ice Punch - Thunder Punch, would you still give me the same answer as of cooldown ?

I think most of you wouldn't...

You all are against Cooldown only on the assumption that Cooldown has no legal moves that can be used... Well guyz you all are so very wrong...

It not true that Cooldown has no legal useable move... There is one move which can be used even in the cooldown stage...

Detect combined with another move...

Yes, there is a move that overrides the need to say cooldown...

Detect can be used in cooldown...

So there was a possibility that Detect can be used during the Cooldown stage... Ofc not having learned Detect doesn't mean it has an exception... However Detect makes Cooldown equivalent to Sleep and Frozen...

Cooldown must be treated equal to Sleep and Freeze...

Detect cannot be used in Cooldown. The effects of Detect linger when Detect is used in a combo (Say, a Combo of Meditate and Detect?). But please, factcheck. Or read.

 

[Its_A_Random]

I disagree with the bit where if a sub on a move says to do something on the first instance and something else on the second instance, if the opponent uses said move twice, the first on a cooldown, then the second usage counts as first instance. Basically my reasoning is because there is already a codified way to deal with this; restrict the substitution to only trigger on the two actions you are not on cooldown (A2 or A3). I also see instance to be interchangeable with use in a way so technically when you use a move the second time, then it counts as the second instance, even if the first instance was on a cooldown action. It does not really make sense to count the second usage as the first instance, especially when there is a legal way to make that second usage the first instance by just adding A2/A3 to a sub (making the second usage the first instance of that move within range).

In other words, while cooldown restricts your round to two actions, substitutions can still happen on cooldown; just that the desired move is overriden by cooldown. If you do not want the sub to happen on the cooldown, then restrict the window of the substitution's trigger-ability.

Example:

N/A > Thousand Arrows > Thousand Waves
IF Protect is used successfully, THEN use Shadow Force on the first instance.

vs.

N/A > Thousand Arrows > Thousand Waves
IF Protect is used successfully A2/A3, THEN use Shadow Force on the first instance.

If the opponent goes:

Protect > V-Create > Protect

Then the first set will not have Shadow Force be used A3 while the second set will. This is what I prefer to happen in ASB as opposed to Shadow Force triggering on both sets. It is a distinction I would prefer to keep for simplicity's sake.

Yeah this might be because I do not want an A3 Dodge in my Tournament match but I think it makes more sense to... you get the point.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

I agree with IAR, my opinion was for substitutions with attack clauses.

Substitutions with Frequency and Chance clauses, should specify the actions to be considered for triggering the substitution, as otherwise it would give the ref a headache.

For Eg.

1) Pokemon A has performed a combination last action.

Pokemon A: Cool down ~ Oblivion Wing ~ Focus Punch
IF Encore, THEN use Dodge that action instead and push actions back.

Pokemon B: Encore ~ Morning Sun ~ Encore

Pokemon A cannot react to a move performed by pokemon B on action 1, since Pokemon A is in cool down on action 1. And since the clause wouldn't be triggered when Pokemon A is in cool down, the push back sub clause is ignored too.

2) Pokemon A has performed a combination last action and Pokemon A is slower, and Pokemon B is confused:

Pokemon A: Cool down ~ Oblivion Wing ~ Focus Punch
IF Pokemon B hits itself in confusion, THEN use Substitute (15 HP) on the first instance and Chill on future instance, pushing actions back each time.

Pokemon B: Status: Confused (4a): Encore ~ Morning Sun ~ Encore

In this case, the chance clause would succeed if Pokemon B hits itself in confusion on action 1. Since the clause has succeeded, the substitution would try to replace cool down with Substitute, but that is not possible. Although, pushing actions back is possible here and should be done to avoid a can of worms.

For the second example: It is the players responsibility to specify "action 2 or action 3" if they do not want push back to occur during their pokemon's cool down phase.

Summary:
- Substitutions with Attack Clauses are ignored completely during cool down.
- Substitutions with Frequency or Chance Clauses are treated as normal and it is up to the player to mention the actions where the substitution should be considered.

 

[Frosty]

Slate for voting in 12h. Since this is for a battle I will just be specific to said battle.

Consider the following orders:

Awesomon: Cooldown | Ice Punch | Thunder Punch
If Togekiss uses Encore, use Dodge on the first instance and Chill on the second. Push back actions each time.

Question 1: If Togekiss uses Encore A1, should we consider as the sub being triggered or not?
a) Yes
b) No

(please state why for future reference)

IF Question 1 is yes:

Question 2: So the sub was triggered A1. The sub has a "push back" clause. What should be done with it?
a) Cooldown is read as "Struggle", so Struggle is pushed back to A2
b) Cooldown can't be pushed back, so the sub is illegal
c) Sub is fine, but the push back part has no effect here

IF Question 1 is no

Question 3: If Encore is used A1 and then A3, which move should be called A3?
a) Dodge, since it was the first instance that sub was activated
b) Chill, since it was the second instance Encore was used

Objections to the slate?