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Suicune (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by prem, Jul 18, 2011.

  1. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    [​IMG]

    Suicune

    [Overview]

    <p>Although Suicune had been solidly OU for the past three generations, the unprecedented power creep in B/W has caused Suicune to fall back a little bit compared to other bulky Water-types. In UU, however, Suicune makes its return as one of the top threats in the metagame. With immense bulk, great typing, and acceptable offensive stats, Suicune can run both offensive and defensive sets. Suicune, however, does get competition from other bulky Water-types such as Milotic and Slowbro, both of which have a reliable form of recovery in Recover and Slack Off, respectively. Despite the competition, Suicune should always be one of the first Pokemon considered when building a team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Calm Mind
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Heralded as one of the most threatening late game sweepers in ADV, CroCune is still a dangerous threat. The idea of this set is to come in on something that cannot threaten Suicune, such as Slowbro, and begin to Calm Mind. When Suicune is low on health, Rest up to regain health and use Sleep Talk to either continue to boost using Calm Mind or attack using Scald. Scald is the only attack Suicune needs, only being resisted by Dragon-, Water-, and Grass-types, while having a 30% chance to burn, which will cripple physical sweepers that attempt to set up alongside Suicune.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread maximizes Defense, allowing Suicune to easily tank physical attacks while bolstering its Special Defense. Because Chansey as well as bulky Water- and Grass-types completely wall this set, Toxic Spikes support is useful to slowly wear these Pokemon down. Roserade is a great teammate, being able to remove Water- and Grass-type Pokemon with its STAB Grass- and Poison-type attacks, while also setting up Toxic Spikes. Grass-types such as Shaymin and Roserade can easily take advantage of this set, making Bug- or Fire-type Pokemon such as Durant or Arcanine great teammates to remove these threats. Chansey, however, is a full stop to this set, not even being 2HKOed by a +6 Scald, making Physical attackers such as Heracross or Victini excellent teammates. Because Trick completely ruins this set, a Pokemon who can take Choice items, or has Trick itself, such as Azelf and Rotom-H, is also a great teammate.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive CM
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Grass / Hidden Power Electric
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Due to its phenomenal defensive stats, Suicune is almost always seen as a defensive Pokemon; it can, however, run an offensive set with near perfect coverage. With a respectable 90 base Special Attack and 85 base Speed, as well as the bulk to take many strong attacks, Suicune can act as a great offensive tank. Using Calm Mind to boost its Special Attack to 418, Suicune can use its 120 Base Power STAB attack to destroy teams. Hydro Pump is the main STAB option due to its damage output, although Surf can be used if Hydro Pump's accuracy is displeasing. Ice Beam is used to hit Dragon- and Grass-type Pokemon who resist your STAB. The choice of Hidden Power is based on which Pokemon Suicune's teammates can take out; Hidden Power Grass hits Gastrodon and Quagsire hard, while Hidden Power Electric hits Empoleon, albeit at the cost of being unable to threaten Gastrodon.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>If one would like to invest more in bulk, an alternative EV spread of 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe with a Modest nature is viable. With only 90 base Special Attack, Suicune needs entry hazard support to ensure some 2HKOs, such as 2HKOing Milotic with a combination of Hydro Pump and Hidden Power Grass. This set is easily walled by Chansey as well as other bulky Grass-types, such as Shaymin and Roserade. Although it cannot do anything besides Roar Suicune away, Empoleon is an effective check, easily avoiding a 2HKO at +1. Heracross and Rotom-H are naturally good partners for Suicune the former can take out Chansey, Empoleon, and Roserade easily with its respective STAB attacks, while the latter can easily remove Empoleon and Roserade, using Trick to ward off Chansey. Without Rest, Suicune is easily removed with passive damage, making Wish support from Chansey appreciated.</p>

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Roar
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With great defenses and typing, Suicune can run an effective defensive set. Rest is useful, as it is Suicune's only recovery move, removing damage and status. Sleep Talk is used to prevent Suicune from becoming set-up bait while it is asleep. Scald is the STAB of choice due to its useful 30% burn rate, easily being able to cripple many physical attackers. Roar is used to prevent Pokemon from setting up on Suicune, as well as racking up entry hazard damage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Entry hazard support is imperative for this set, increasing the opponent's passive damage in conjunction with Roar. Good entry hazard users include Deoxys-D, Chansey, Nidoqueen, Registeel, and Roserade. Roserade in particular gets a special mention for being able to set up Spikes and Toxic Spikes, while being able to deal with bulky Water- and Grass-types with its STAB Grass- and Poison-type attacks respectively. Choice Rotom-H is another great teammate for Suicune, resisting both of its weaknesses while also being able to get rid of bulky Water- and Grass-types.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubCM
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Grass
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 212 SpA / 44 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Suicune is a natural user of Substitute and Calm Mind with its great bulk and typing. With 404 max HP, Suicune can produce 101 HP Substitutes, allowing it to easily set up and beat Chansey while it uses Seismic Toss to break your Substitutes in two turns. Calm Mind is used to boost Suicune's Special Attack and Defense, allowing Suicune to tank even super effective attacks with enough boosts, while Substitute allows Suicune to block status and Trick, both of which commonly ruin Suicune. The idea of the this set is to come in on something that does not threaten Suicune, use either Calm Mind or Substitute, then continue using Substitute or Calm Mind until Suicune is strong enough to begin attacking. Scald is the main STAB move on this set, as even though this set is offensive, burn rates from Scald can easily cripple any physical attacker trying to set up on Suicune. The final move of the set is dependent on what the rest of the team can cover for Suicune, as Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types super effectively, while Hidden Power Grass can hit bulky Water-types hard.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread lists maximum HP to provide 101 HP Substitutes, and has enough Speed to outrun Deoxys-D with no Speed investment, with the leftover EVs put into Special Attack. Although this set can easily set up in front of Chansey, one of its main counters, this set still loses to Roserade and Trick, provided a Substitute is not up. A good teammate for this set is Rotom-H, who does not mind Trick, while also being able to destroy Roserade. Because Toxic Spikes ruin this set, a grounded Poison-type who can remove them, such as Roserade, is appreciated. Without Toxic Spikes support, Haze Milotic can easily beat this set, making Roserade a great partner for Suicune with its ability to set up Toxic Spikes, and when combined with Rotom-H, makes for a very good FWG core.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Suicune has quite a few more options despite its relatively shallow movepool. Surf is usable over Scald in all situations if Toxic Spikes support is utilized and the burn rate is not needed. Suicune can utilize Toxic, which, in conjunction with Suicune's bulk, will allow Suicune to slowly whittle away the opponent's HP. Extrasensory and Air Slash (a Relaxed nature must be used for the latter) are other moves Suicune can use to hit certain targets. Heracross will be instantly murdered by an Air Slash, while Extrasensory is somewhat useful for its chance to flinch.</p>

    <p>Tailwind and Rain Dance are both very viable options; the former helps all slow Pokemon, while the latter specifically helps Swift Swimmers such as Kabutops and Kingdra. A Set of Calm Mind and Roar is usable to win Calm Mind wars and proceed to sweep teams.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Chansey is the biggest counter to Suicune available, taking laughable damage from all common sets while being capable of setting up Stealth Rock or passing massive Wishes. Suicune is also easily countered by bulky Grass- and Water-types. Roserade and Shaymin can easily switch into Suicune with their good special bulk, and threaten to KO Suicune with their STAB Grass-type attacks. Abomasnow can easily come in with its resistance to Water attacks and neutrality to Ice-type attacks, set up Hail—which removes Suicune's Leftovers recovery—and either stall Suicune out with Leech Seed or just attack directly with Giga Drain. Rotom-C also resists Suicune's STAB Water attacks, can take an Ice Beam with its bulk, and threaten with STAB Volt Switch or Leaf Storm. Snorlax, with its phenomenal special bulk, can easily withstand a +1 Life Orb Hydro Pump and either phaze with Whirlwind or hit hard with a Choice Band Body Slam. Electric-types such as Zapdos and Raikou are effective checks that have difficulty coming in on Suicune, but can easily destroy it with their STAB Thunderbolts. Bulky Water-types such as Milotic, Empoleon, and Blastoise can easily come in on Suicune and phaze it with Haze, Roar, and Dragon Tail, respectively. Poliwrath can easily counter mono-attacker sets such as CroCune with Water Absorb, and can use Circle Throw to phaze Offensive Suicune out. Trick users such as Azelf, Rotom-C and Rotom-H can also destroy all Suicune sets, as it does not enjoy being locked into one move.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Suicune gets Water Absorb as its Dream World ability. This is normally a great ability, giving a water immunity and recovery, but because of Suicune's natural bulk as well as its Water resistance, Suicune already takes minimal damage from Water attacks. Suicune also already has a fantastic ability in Pressure, which it puts to great use, easily soaking up hits and draining away the opponent's PP. Suicune can, however, put Water Absorb to great use on the Offensive Calm Mind set, as without investment, Suicune cannot take hits quite as well.</p>
  2. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    Looks good, but mention other bulky Water-types in the Checks and Counters section. Empoleon, Milotic and Blastoise can all phaze Suicune, so you should probably mention them in checks and counters and the Crocune/Resttalk sets. Also, I wouldn't call Hidden Power Electric completely useless, as it allwows you to hit Empoleon super effectively.

    Don't forget Jolteon and Rotom-C in checks and counters
  3. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    crap forgot about empoleons existance. i put the mention of bulky waters in all places instead of just the ac of crocune. and put jolton there. i will never put electivire there though
  4. MysticClaydol

    MysticClaydol

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    Doesn't Gligar get a mention for being a great team mate resisting grass and electric moves while Suicune can take ice type moves.
  5. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    ok added in teammates, but not gligar... 2 physical walls dont help much normally

    also added in dw section that i forgot about
  6. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    bump for QC checks
  7. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    CroCune and ResTalk can be combined but best to wait for a moderator.
  8. Stellar

    Stellar
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    ResTalk plays a more supportive role than Crocune (which is generally played as a late game sweeper). I think their roles are sufficiently different to justify the separation.
  9. Blazen

    Blazen

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    I'm not much of an expert, but I have to wonder about the line of Pressure being better than Water Absorb. If, and when it's released I would think WA would be more useful. While Suicune is reasonably bulky, I think an immunity, and potential healing on a switch would be pretty useful, especially in double, and triple battles with Surf involved.
  10. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    well for offensive sets its better, because residual damage sucks. but for the defensive sets, walling and killing PP. suicune will always take very low damage from water moves, making the immunity not worth the pp drain caused by pressure. sorry im bad at explaining this... but it makes sense
  11. Omicron

    Omicron
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    Mention substitute somewhere, probably OO.
  12. Oglemi

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    Suicune is such a boss

    Though, I'd make CroCrune the first set, then Offensive CM.

    [​IMG]

    QC 1/3

    EDIT: Also, don't slash Ice Beam on the RestTalk set, Roar is so much better.
  13. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    ok edited that in thanks! i just put ice beam in AC of restalk set because it does have some use
  14. Snunch

    Snunch
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    • Remove surf from the crocune and resttalk sets and mention that running either alongside toxic spikes may warrant using surf instead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surf doesnt get any notable KOs, and scald's secondary effect is too good to pass up.
    • I dont understand a lot of the possible teammates. Abomasnow isn't the kind of pokemon that can be thrown onto any team and Sawsbuck is outclassed and never seen. Try to make your team options more general, i.e. "Strong grass types can switch in and immediately threaten Haze Milotic", before being more specific, "Roserade excels at this because its STAB Sludge Bomb also threatens grass-type counters such as Shaymin and Celebi."

    Make those changes, and I'll most likely stamp this.
  15. metsrule158

    metsrule158 Don't disturb him on his break.
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    um.... just gonna say this: your title says OC not QC. :0
  16. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Sheperd: Suicune is used less than Milotic, that can't happen.

    I'm not sure if SubCM deserves a mention or an actually set, i'll have to test it / talk it over with the other QC members. Otherwise

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  17. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    ok added in better teammate things, and the other snunch mentions. thanks for the QC check pk. and metrule... i dont feel like fixing it and its not important xD thanks for the notice though
  18. Snunch

    Snunch
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    Good job with teammates went above and beyond what I was expecting.

    QC APPROVED 3/3
  19. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    I just wanted to point out that the title says OC, QC. But I doubt that matters.
  20. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    OK thanks snunch. i will write this up soon... just like i will fucking pichu.oh well this pokemon is important so i might actually care xD
  21. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    I'd like to suggest the addition of a set:

    [SET]
    name: SubCM
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 212 SpA / 44 Spe

    I'm not too sure about the EVs, they require further investigation and testing to see what are the best. So far, they outspeed uninvested Deoxys-D, but there are probably better benchmarks to hit, something QC needs to spend time doing. I prefer high SpA on this set simply because it makes Suicune more of an attacker, unlike CroCune.
  22. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    for the Sub CM set, i wouldnt mind adding it, but if its only purpose is to set up on chansey (and others who depend on seismic toss/night shade) then i dont see why it should be a full set, especially since there is a high (better fucking happen) chance of Chansey getting banned. and,not trying to sound lazy, but i really dont want to write a set that is used to counter a single pokemon that will probably banned. of course if there is something elese that subCm suicune beats, then i will have no issue to adding it.
  23. Oglemi

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    That might be because none of us found it that interesting, and maybe because PK didn't get a hold of us to discuss it. Again, if you ever find something amiss in an analysis use that thread that Snunch linked, or get a hold of us personally to either discuss it or to make another thread with just that set, instead of ranting about it in the thread.

    As Snunch said, if it was really that important we wouldn't have forgotten it or somebody else would have wandered into this thread and suggested it. Most of what our job entails as QC is to QC what the OP has in the OP. We can't be expected to think up some random sets, test them, and then post here in the thread. What we do is look at what the OP has, decide if it's good at a glance, test it, make necessary adjustments, and then follow up. We're making sure what is in the OP is up to Smogon quality standards. And if it turns out that something in the OP is not up to standards or is not good in the metagame, it gets rejected.

    If you want me to go more into detail I will, or if you want to discuss it further get in contact with me. But calling people out is not the way to go about things, especially if you want to keep your image as a community member in good standings. I lost a lot of respect for you in your last two posts.

    EDIT: ugh damn it SDS >.>
  24. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    ok ok ill test the set for a while and then post the set if i think its good enough/QC will tell me to make the set.

    EDIT: so i have tested the set for a while, and it was pretty good, but not something i think is mandatory (sure setting up on chansey is nice, but eventually they realize chansey wont win and just go to celebi). so i guess its down to QC decision. im already writing this up, so if this gets added does it have to get QCed again?
  25. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Anyway, go ahead and do the right up as we discusssed prem. If we end up wanting a Sub/CM set, we can always make someone else write it if this has gone on site already (lol, as if)

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