1. GET SMOGON SHIRTS HERE! First time ever. Limited time only & next time the design will be different, so get it while you can!
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  3. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Suicune (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by zdrup15, Jan 27, 2011.

  1. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Pokedex page

    QC Approvals: Bad Ass, Bloo and Delta 2777

    GP Approvals: jc104 and Athenodoros

    [Overview]

    <p>Suicune is without a doubt the best Pokemon of the second legendary trio in the game. It has great defensive stats and a good HP stat, which means that it can perform well as a very bulky Water-type. Offensively it's not a bad Pokemon either; it has a base 90 Special Attack and a decent base 85 Speed. It also has access to Calm Mind to further boost its Special Attack and Special Defense, letting it perform well as either a tank or a sweeper.</p>

    <p>However, time hasn't been kind to Suicune. The legendary dog has had increasing troubles since its first appearance in Johto; now, with the significant increase in power of the offensive threats, its defenses aren't as amazing as they used to be and it now has a hard time taking even some unboosted hits. Suicune also has a somewhat shallow movepool, which makes it predictable. However, despite these two limitations, it is still a top Pokemon that one should always consider when building a team.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Calm Mind is the main move here as it allows Suicune to boost its already impressive Special Defense and decent Special Attack and start a sweep. Surf is a reliable and powerful STAB attack that Suicune loves to spam after a few boosts. Ice Beam allows Suicune to hit the Grass- and Dragon-type Pokemon that resist its STAB attack for major damage. The last slot represents the most difficult decision and depends on Suicune's teammates; Hidden Power Electric is usually the best choice as it lets Suicune get past bulky Water-types that would otherwise stall out the legendary dog or defeat it with Toxic.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Using a Timid nature and 252 Speed EVs lets Suicune tie with Jolly max Speed Heracross and max Speed neutral-natured Hydreigon, both of which it can deal with if it uses Calm Mind on the switch. The 252 Special Attack EVs maximize the damage output of Suicune's attacks. Hydro Pump can be used instead of Surf for more power, but the lower accuracy may reduce Suicune's chance of sweeping. Hidden Power Fire turns this set into bulky Water bait but it does hit one major opponent that would otherwise laugh at Suicune - Ferrothorn - very hard.</p>

    <p>As mentioned, if one chooses Hidden Power Electric, Magnezone is a good partner as it can trap and 2HKO Ferrothorn, which would otherwise stop Suicune's sweep. Conkeldurr and Calm Mind Reuniclus are also good partners as they can defeat both Ferrothorn and Blissey / Chansey, who stop this variant of Suicune. If Hidden Power Fire is the move on the fourth slot, a Grass- or Electric-type Pokemon is pretty much needed to take out the Water-types before Suicune can attempt to sweep. Ferrothorn, despite being one of Suicune's main obstacles, is also one of its best partners. It can set up entry hazards on the bulky waters to help Suicune sweep, or go for the KO with Power Whip. It also attracts Fire-types, giving Suicune good opportunities to switch in.</p>

    [SET]
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Scald / Surf
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is a different approach to fulfilling Suicune's potential; it trades immediate power and Speed for huge bulk and great durability. It may have an unappealing Special Attack at first but it has enough bulk so that it can easily find an opportunity to set up Calm Minds, turning it into a monster. Scald is the only attacking move, but this is acceptable thanks to the great neutral coverage Water-type moves provide. The burning chance may also provide Suicune with an easier set-up on physical attackers, and may help wear down the opponent's Pokemon. Calm Mind even allows Suicune to set up on some super effective special attacks if it manages to get a boost on the switch-in. Rest and Sleep Talk are the moves that protect Suicune from status and allow it to recover the health it lost while setting up.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Bold nature with maximum Defense and HP EVs allow for maximum physical bulk and, with 115 base Defense, Suicune will be able to take on most of the physical attackers in OU. If Scald's power isn't enough, Surf can be used but Suicune will miss the burns against the physical attackers as it will have fewer chances to set up.</p>

    <p>Strong Electric- and Grass-type Pokemon can KO Suicune before it has grabbed enough boosts so Pokemon that can switch into them are good teammates for Suicune. SubSeed Shaymin and specially bulky Heatran are good examples as they can handle both types and attempt to KO in return.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Surf / Scald
    move 4: Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 172 SpA / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set attempts to cause some major damage with little set-up. Calm Mind is the boosting move of choice and turns Suicune into a bulky tank after some turns. Substitute is this set's main selling point; it provides Suicune with a status immunity and works very well with Calm Mind as, with Suicune's natural bulk, its Substitutes won't be broken even with super effective attacks after a few boosts. Surf is the powerful and reliable STAB attack of choice, while Ice Beam provides good coverage against the Grass- and Dragon-type Pokemon that resist the Water-type attacks.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Modest nature boosts Suicune's Special Attack, while 84 Speed EVs let it outspeed minimum Speed Gliscor and set up a Substitute on it. 252 HP EVs allow Suicune to create 101 HP Substitutes and, therefore, set up on Chansey / Blissey and Dusclops, beating them with Toxic Spikes support. The remaining 172 EVs are put into Special Attack, giving a boost to Surf and Ice Beam. Scald can be used over Surf because of its 30% burning chance, but this set doesn't have the durability of "CroCune" and as such Surf is the superior option most of the time. Hidden Power Fire can be used in the last slot instead of Ice Beam because Ferrothorn can't be beaten without it but Suicune will lose some really important coverage without Ice Beam.</p>

    <p>Forretress has great synergy with Suicune, and can set up Toxic Spikes, allowing Suicune to beat all of the aforementioned special walls bar Ferrothorn, stalling them out with poison damage. It can also use Rapid Spin to remove entry hazards, especially Toxic Spikes as poison ruins this set. Magnezone is a good partner to eliminate bulky Steel- and Water-types that give this set some trouble.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Outside of the listed sets, Suicune doesn't have many options. Toxic is a good move to hit the bulky Waters that trouble the legendary dog so much and can be used instead of Toxic Spikes to get past the aforementioned Pokemon. In a metagame filled with Fighting-type Pokemon, Extrasensory can be used to hit them super effectively but STAB Surf or Hydro Pump already deals major damage to most of them. Shadow Ball is not really worthy of use for similar reasons.</p>

    <p>Suicune has major bulk and access to Rest so it can work as a bulky Rain Dance user. With defensive investment it can take lots of hits but shares weaknesses with common rain abusers, making Uxie or Scizor a much better choice.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Bulky Water-type Pokemon are Suicune's biggest counters as they resist its STAB attacks and have ways to prevent a sweep: Jellicent may have Taunt or Toxic, both of which ruin Suicune unless it is running the Substitute + Calm Mind set and even that requires Toxic Spikes support to beat the jellyfish; Vaporeon has Water Absorb to protect itself from Suicune's STAB attacks and Roar to force it out but it must watch out for the Offensive Calm Mind set as +1 Hidden Power Electric is a 2HKO; Gyarados has to watch out for Hidden Power Electric but if Suicune doesn't carry it, it can phaze Suicune to prevent a sweep.</p>

    <p>Ferrothorn is another major obstacle to the legendary dog as it resists every move Suicune has barring the rare Hidden Power Fire, and can use Power Whip and Leech Seed to damage the legendary dog. If Suicune doesn't have Hidden Power Fire, its only chance to protect itself from Ferrothorn is Boiling Water's 30% burn chance. In fact, if Suicune can burn Ferrothron, Power Whip will only do around 25% so it is no longer impossible to get past.</p>

    <p>Chansey and Blissey appear as the primary counters for the offensive versions of Suicune as they can come in, sponge any special attack it throws at them and use Seismic Toss to KO. However, the pink blobs have to watch out for the defensive versions as they may become setup fodder.</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Suicune's Dream World ability is Water Absorb and, even though Suicune doesn't take significant damage from Water-type attacks due to its great bulk, it's not a useless ability. The defensive sets are better paired with Pressure as Suicune will be on the field for a while and can PP stall some strong attacks that have low PP. However, the Offensive Calm Mind set lacks recovery and, as such, can make use of Water Absorb to recover some health before attempting a sweep.</p>
  2. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    I started working on this so suggest Suicune's sets with which you had some success.
  3. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    [SET]
    name: Offensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Electric
    item: Life Orb / Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

    Go for Blood. Set is going to be walled by something... You need to weaken natty a bit, but you can beat him with Hidden Power Fire. Hidden Power Electric for other waters... but surprisingly they dont exist... Hydro Pump is stupidly powerful at +1 with Life Orb, just saying. Surf is better with Leftovers.

    Choice Specs... NAH... I'd rather use something else than Cune

    My two cents for Crocune is this: Surf > Boil Over. The power boost against phazers like Skarm is much needed. Boiling water is stupidly weak. They should be slashed though and be up to the users.

    As for Bulky Water, a Boiling Water / Roar / Rest / Sleep Talk set is still a viable shuffler in the metagame.
  4. IcyMan28

    IcyMan28

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    2,162
    Seconding Raikou's suggestions. For the CM set, note that lacking HP Fire leaves you walled by Nattorei while lacking HP Electric has you phazed out by Gyarados and helpless against Taunt Jellicent.
  5. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    Chose the sets I'll include and wrote the Dream World section. I'll include all the comments when I finish the playtest
  6. dubious

    dubious

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    34
    [SET]
    name: Chesto Sweeper
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Hidden Power Electric / Ice Beam
    move 4: Rest
    item: Chesto Berry
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    While it is somewhat gimmicky due to its reliance on a single use item, most strategies used against Suicune tend to be some variation of toxic stalling coming from another bulky water like Jellicent or Slowbro. Setting up 3 or so Calm Minds and then activating a 1-turn Rest can greatly aid in a sweep. While the loss of Leftovers recovery is saddening, this Suicune is meant to differentiate itself from other waters as I find that others do a better job of walling due to more reliable forms of recovery.

    As I stated before, this isn't the most conventional set, but it might be worthy of a mention in the Additional Comments section.
  7. Friar

    Friar

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2008
    Messages:
    615
    I think on all the sets except Offensive CM, Boiling Water should be the primary option. The 30% burn rate is too great for a defensive Pokemon to pass up. Having a burned physical attacker makes CroCune easier to set up, and burning whatever comes in on the bulky water is never a bad thing.

    Only other things I'd say is give mention to Ice Beam on bulky sets, and make sure you show when you'd use this as opposed to Jellicent (especially on the bulky set).
  8. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Boiling water on Crocune is no thanks. The least it can do is burn Nattorei, who you shouldn't be fighting anyway since you won't win. It is probably good on the RestTalk Shuffle, but its generally too weak on the other sets. What does Crocune really wanna burn? I'm thinking of Gen IV pokemon like Gyarados that are very rare offensively now.
  9. supermarth64

    supermarth64 Here I stand in the light of day
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,443
    How is "the least" it can do is burn Nattorei? A burned Nattorei won't even do 25% with a Power Whip while Leech Seed only cancels out burn. The most that Nattorei's gonna end up doing in 1 turn is 30% after Leech Seed + Leftovers, meaning Suicune can still freely Rest + Calm Mind up in front of Nattorei and eventually 3HKO with +6 Boiling Water and burn (Cune only 3HKOes with +6 Surf also). It's not like Surf's doing better on Suicune anyway because Boiling Water lets Cune set up a lot more easily due to the burn. Meanwhile, vs physically defensive Skarmory (more def is necessary due to stronger physical Pokemon), +1 Boiling Water 2HKOes with SR up while +1 Surf KOes w/o SR up. The only major difference is at +3, where +3 Surf OHKOes physically defensive Skarm while +3 Boiling Water only has a 1/3 chance of doing so with SR.
  10. bubbly

    bubbly

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2009
    Messages:
    883
    I agree with supermarth, Boiling Water should at least be slashed in with Surf on CroCune, maybe even given the primary slash.
  11. Chillarmy

    Chillarmy

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    517
    SubCM should at least get a mention if not, it's own set. It's not as prone to being revenge killed by Thundurus, can avoid status while at the same time maintaining decent coverage, get an 'extra' hit in on Wobb and sets up on Burungeru lacking Energy Ball as well as Blissey / Chansey. If it's any help, I ran Modest, 116 HP / 252 SAtk / 140 Spd (Sub/CM/Boil Over/Ice Beam) with success.
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2009
    Messages:
    2,659
    Alright, stopping here to say that Boiling Water / Scald should at least get a slash or mention on any defensive Suicune set. Even though Suicune's already defensive physically, Scald gives Suicune a handy chance against greedy, more powerful physical threats who finds themselves feeding on its unboosted Defense rather than Special Defense. If Suicune doesn't get enough boosts, the burn chance is at least nice.

    So what I'm trying to say is...put Scald as the primary option on Bulky Water and give it a chance on defensive CM sets, even though RL delineated some of the advantages of using Surf.

    By the way, for quality's sake, Boiling Water is now Scald.
  13. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,339
    Yeah, I agree that there should be a SubCM set (now that Manaphy's gone). Something like this:

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpA / 84 Spe
    Nature: Modest
    -Calm Mind
    -Substitute
    -Surf
    -Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire

    252 HP lets you set up 101 HP Subs, and the Speed EVs allow you to outspeed minimum speed Gliscor. 88 Spe can be used if you're using HP Fire (Strictly for Nattorei ONLY). If you give this thing some Toxic Spikes support, Suicune is easily beating Burungeru, since you can just Substitute up, Calm Mind up while it dies of Toxic Spikes damage.
  14. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    The two sets are done and the rest will be done in two days at most.
  15. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    As promissed, this analysis is finally ready for the QC checks.

    This was definitely tougher to write than the other ones but it was a good practice for Bronzong.
  16. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass bring me coffee or tea
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a GS2 Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,381
    - Offensive Calm Mind should be
    name: Offensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Electric
    item: Leftovers / Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    Life Orb is so bad. I'd rather use Starmie to pound out stuff with Life Orb and Recover. Between Life Orb, Sandstorm, and Stealth Rock Suicune isn't lasting long. Not to mention if it needs to take an attack to set up a Calm Mind. Hidden Power Fire goes first; Nattorei is more common than Jellicent, and much more annoying with Leech Seed and Spikes

    CroCune is using Boiling Water. I fail to see what the 20 power drop loses when you see that you are pretty much impervious to most Special Attacks with Calm Mind, and now have a chance to Burn pesky physical attackers. Besides, CroCune is meant to wall things throughout the game, wear down its counters with hazards, etc., and then sweep late game. If you burn Nattorei, it's GG for a lot of teams.

    Lastly, I'll have to talk to some other QC members about RestTalk and CroCune. I'll get back to you once I have that sorted out.
  17. Tibbs

    Tibbs

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2009
    Messages:
    30
    Just a quick suggestion, but I think the analysis mentions a couple of times that Pokemon like Heatran and Forretress resist Suicune's weaknesses, but the Steel-type takes neutral damage from Electric, rather than resisting it.

    Specifically, "Suicune resists Fire, Forretress's only weakness; the Steel-type resists both Grass- and Electric-type attacks to make sure the legendary dog doesn't get harmed by them."

    Also, "Strong Electric- and Grass-type Pokemon can KO Suicune before it has grabbed enough boosts so Pokemon that can switch in on those counters are good teammates for Suicune. SubSeed Shaymin and specially bulky Heatran are good examples as they resist both types and can attempt to KO in return."

    Otherwise, great analysis, thanks.
  18. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass bring me coffee or tea
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a GS2 Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,381
    Okay, after discussing this with Bloo, we have come to the decision that Rest Talk is basically an inferior CroCune. Remove Rest Talk and it's approved.
  19. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,797
    Yeah, ditch the RestTalk set and you've got my approval.

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  20. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 10 Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,241
    I'd approve this but I thought it was agreed that on the first set Leftovers and Surf would be the first slashes?

    I also think that Boiling Water should be the first slash (before Surf) on the CroCune set, and a slash (after Surf) on the SubCM set.

    And lastly just mention that the "offensive CM" set can use the same moveset with a slightly more defensive spread if it wants to check stuff like Garchomp while still having an offensive presence.
  21. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    Yes but I wanted to wait for Bad Ass's final decision before editing. And when he did I was about to go to sleep xD

    I'll do it today
  22. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 10 Champion

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,241
    QC Approved (3/3)

    You're good to go
  23. zdrup15

    zdrup15
    is a Battle Server Moderatoris a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,871
    I'll write this over the next week.
  24. ak_Archangel

    ak_Archangel

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    116
    ChoiceCone
    Suicune @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 52 Def / 252 SAtk / 126 SDef / 80 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Air Slash/Hidden Power Fire
    - Bark out
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam

    I love this set and thought i would share this for ya. It somewhat works.
  25. Don Honchkrorleone

    Don Honchkrorleone

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2010
    Messages:
    758
    To have Air Slash it must be Relaxed.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)