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Suicune (BW2 Revamp) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by ScraftyIsTheBest, Mar 10, 2013.

  1. tehy

    tehy

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    Basically, the only reason that Suicune is filling this role that gives Keldeo no competition is because Keldeo's so good that it can't do any of the other things it might be able to without being outclassed. That's competition in my book.

    As for Slowbro, I mean, I can kinda see it, but IDK. They're both physically bulky waters, but it's questionable how much Suicune is being used for 'bulky water' rather than 'CM lategame sweeper'.
  2. alexwolf

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    Remove Slowbro as it is not relevant enough in OU to get a mention here. Instead add one of the two premier CM sweepers in OU, Latias, which plays very similarly to Suicune.

    When talking about Pressure in the set comments, remove Stone Edge as there isn't a single Pokemon that would want to face Suicune and would use Stone Edge. Instead mention Thunder, a move that Starmie often uses.

    Suicune is not completely outclassed by Keldeo, as otherwise we wouldn't mention it even here. An offensive CM set with 2 attacks + Tailwind differentiates Suicune from Keldeo and can take advantage of its good bulk to set up both moves while also helping its teammates after it dies. Of 'course its power sucks and its coverage is limited but that's Suicune for ya.

    Put Thundurus-T in its appropriate place as a check to Thund-T. It is a good check but cannot switch in more a lot, which makes it worse at handling Suicune than Celebi and Vaporeon for example. You should mention the Pokemon in c&c in order of importance as check and counters.

    Finally, in the Unreleased section mention that Water Absorb will be the superior ability once it gets released, as not giving a shit about Water-attacks that are everywhere and stopping Keldeo cold is super important.
  3. ginganinja

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    Actually Offensive CM (which the line states) is like 100% outclassed by Keldeo. Keldeo hits harder, has pretty neat coverage between its 2 STABs, isn't walled by Ferrothorn, hits special walls harder and is faster. OO is ok for mentioning sets that are outclassed by other pokemon so the line stays. I tested CM + Tailwind and it only barely passes OO due to the team support it provides, you lose to far 2 much shit with just 2 moves.

    tl;dr

    Keep the line, its fine, and removing it implies that Suicune isn't outclassed by Keldeo in offensive CM duties, when it actually is.

    Debatable. I agree that Water Absorb will be an excellent ability, however Keldeo still has access to its STAB SS so I don't think you "stop Keldeo cold" with water absorb.
  4. alexwolf

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    We don't disagree about Keldeo outclassing Suicune in an offensive role ginga, i already said it does. However it doesn't completely outclass it as Tailwind + CM is something that Keldeo can't do, and this is what will be mentioned in OO.

    Suicune with Water Absorb and Roar instead of Calm Mind walls Scarf Keldeo, Expert Belt Keldeo, and any CM Keldeo, while acting as a fantastic check to Specs Keldeo which can only 3HKO with Secret Sword after SR. Pretty much stops Keldeo cold if you ask me.
  5. ginganinja

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    Im sorry I thought we were discussing CroCune (which loses to CM Keldeo) and not some shitty Roar / Rest / Sleep Talk / Scald set which is potentially inferior to other bulky water types. Please be more clear in future. Can we instead mention Water Absorb in the context of the set that is actually IN the analysis. It seems we would be getting ahead of ourselves in claiming the above set is viable the moment Water Absorb is released. Specs Keldeo can also 2KO with HP Electric if you really want to get nitty gritty lol.

    You seem to be confused. Here is the (slight) issue

    #1 CM + Tailwind is shit. I tested it myself when I was a tailwind fanboy and imo its not even worth an OO mention. For reference I used Tailwind + 3 Attacks which was average at best, and what I was referring to in post 23 when I suggested Tailwind in OO. CM + Tailwind is an offensive CM set that attempts to use Calm Mind to boost, and then to use Tailwind to give it the speed boost it needs to sweep (at least thats now I used it). In this manner, it is a more "selfish" user of Tailwind due to your boosts being lost when you switch out, thus encouraging you to stay in. This is something I dislike since we have established that Offensive Calm Mind Suicune is horrible, and CM + Tailwind Suicune is Suicune trying to run an Offensive Calm Mind set.

    #2
    This is the line I prefer to single out, because in an analysis its confusing. On the one hand, we as QC want to push the fact that a) Suicune is outclassed by Keldeo and b) Its offensive Calm Mind sets suck AND are outclassed by Keldeo. What you are doing, is attempting to say both things, ie that Keldeo outclasses Offensive CM sets, then turning around and saying Suicune can outclass Keldeo at Offensive Calm Mind sets. This is the wrong message to send IMO.

    #3 Suicune doesn't really "outclass" Keldeo at Offensive Calm Mind sets. CM + Tailwind, as I pointed out, is shit, and I don't like considering "this pokemon can use move x, its still shit but its not outclassed" a viable line. This is coming after SDS remarked to me once that OO was becoming bloated, and occasionally filled with moves / sets that are still shit, that shouldn't get a mention.

    Personal Solution:

    Mention Tailwind in OO. Like I said, its an average move, and is good with team support, NOT as a means to sweep. Do not mention CM + Tailwind as I think that sets utter shit and isn't even OO worthy. Mention that Keldeo outclasses all Offensive CM sets that Suicune can do. While its true that Suicune gets Tailwind and Keldeo doesn't, Keldeos CM sets are still better than CM + Tailwind Suicune which means that yes, Keldeo still outclasses.

    I hope things are more clear now.
  6. tehy

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    Edit:Well, actually, it would make more sense to just say "Any CM set that suicune Should be doing, Keldeo can do better"

    As in:Suicune is perfectly capable of using its access to Calm Mind to take the offensive approach, but any set worth using that attempts this is outclassed by Keldeo.

    Ginga's right about Water Absorb and Keldeo. But i guess you can mention that Water Absorb can turn Keldeo into an source of healing, which can let you delay using Rest. Actually one of the great things about it for Suicune, instead of getting worn down by Rain water attacks and being forced to rest, it can reverse that process and delay the Rest.
  7. alexwolf

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    Ok i agree with you ginga! You agree that Water Absorb is superior to Pressure on Suicune right?
  8. ginganinja

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    Yes I agree that Water Absorb, in the long run, is better on CroCune if its released. Personally however, I would mention that Pressure still has value for PP stalling Power Whips, as well as other low PP moves. With Pressure killing the PP, you reduce the chances at being nailed by an untimely critical hit which is something CroCune is vulnerable to. Also, its just nice for killing the PP of moves in general. For instance, you can switch into a Heatrans Fire Blast, knock its PP down by 2, and in general discourage it from using Fire Blast later in the match, least it be helpless without its STAB. Water Absorb can do this as well I guess, but Pressure is usually better at this, plus you don't need to switch in and predict the Fire Blast so often.

    I would compare the 2 abilities as something like Intimidate vs Moxie on a Salamence. Moxie is often the better ability for the snowball chance, but Intimidate still has value in certain situations. This, I feel, is sorta the scenario with Water Absorb vs pressure on Suicune. Hope you agree.
  9. alexwolf

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    I definitely agree that Pressure still has its uses, but the sheer utility of being immune to water-type moves in this metagame can't be ignored, giving to Suicune much more chances to switch-in and start boosting. So, while i agree that Pressure would still have its uses, i think that Water Absorb is better overall, and when i say better, i mean that it should be the only choice on the main set with Pressure getting a mention on the AC.

    EDIT: Yeah the Unreleased section is fine.
  10. ginganinja

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    Yea but its not released yet iirc so discussion as to what ability should be slashed where is getting a little ahead of ourselves.

    I am happy with the current paragraph in the Unreleased heading.
  11. Oglemi

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    [Overview]

    <p>Back in the GSC and ADV eras, Suicune was once one of the best Pokemon in the game. A Water typing along with excellent 100 / 115 / 115 defenses make Suicune a defensive behemoth, while access to Calm Mind and a decent 90 Special Attack are icing on the cake, using its good offensive typing to sweep. Unfortunately, a lot has changed, and Suicune struggles to stand up to the new metagame. BW2 has ushered in a more fast paced and highly offensive metagame, which means Suicune's bulk sometimes isn't enough to withstand even unboosted hits. The ever-present nuisances of Ferrothorn and Celebi make it hard for Suicune as well. Finally, Suicune receives stiff competition from the likes of other Pokemon such as Keldeo and Latias as a Calm Mind user in OU.</p>

    <p>However, Suicune does have its perks. Suicune stands strong with its unparalleled mixed bulk, especially in comparison to other bulky Water-types. Its access to Calm Mind and good STAB can make Suicune a strong offensive threat as well, denting teams without a resist. Suicune also benefits from the presence of rain, as its typing allows it to take on many common threats in rain while it enjoys the buffing of its own STAB move. Suicune may have taken a hit in its effectiveness, but it still stands strong as a bulky Water-type that can hit potently hard.</p>

    [SET]
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A relic from the ADV era, CroCune stands as Suicune's only viable set in the BW2 OU metagame. Using its high defenses, good typing, and Calm Mind, Suicune can make for a solid and bulky late-game sweeper. While the sleep mechanics of the fifth generation have somewhat hindered this set's effectiveness, Suicune's unparalleled bulk allows it to survive the turns of Rest, especially when its counters have been removed from the match. Pressure is also a great asset, allowing Suicune to stall the PP of moves such as Thunder and Giga Drain. Calm Mind is the crux of this set, as Boosting Suicune's special stats to formidable levels with Calm Mind is this set's ultimate goal. Scald is a solid STAB move that hits fairly hard after multiple boosts; the burning chance also complements Suicune's ability to take hits. Rest is unfortunately Suicune's only form of recovery, although it has enough bulk to endure the sleep turns. Sleep Talk is in the final moveslot so that Suicune can accomplish either gaining extra boosts or firing off Scalds while it's asleep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread and nature invests fully into physical bulk as Calm Mind is boosting Special Defense, hence maximizing Suicune's overall bulk. Leftovers is chosen for its consistent recovery. A Bold Nature maximizes the physical defense to make the most out of Suicune. Politoed is a useful teammate to summon rain to buff the power of Suicune's Scald, making it harder to take on. Scizor and Weavile can utilize Pursuit to check Latias, Latios, and Celebi, all common counters to Suicune. Alternatively, Choice Band Tyranitar can trap troublesome Jellicent and Latias, and although Suicune doesn't necessarily enjoy the sandstorm due to its passive damage, it can still get its job done. Celebi or Ferrothorn make potent teammates as well, absorbing troublesome Grass- and Electric-type moves that Suicune often struggles with, while it returns the favor by taking on Fire-type moves. The latter also provides entry hazard support which can be beneficial. Gothitelle makes for a great teammate, trapping and heavily denting Suicune's common counters such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Vaporeon. Finally, Magnezone is very useful to remove Ferrothorn from the match.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Suicune has a shallow movepool, it does have some other options it could use. Suicune is perfectly capable of using its access to Calm Mind to take a more offensive approach, but it is generally outclassed by Keldeo in this regard. Ice Beam is a solid coverage move that can handle Grass- and Dragon-types well. Roar is a good move to shuffle the opposing team on more defensive sets. Hidden Power Grass or Electric is perfectly usable if opposing Water-types pose a significant threat to the team. Toxic is also usable to wear down defensive Pokemon. Tailwind is an interesting option for a temporary speed boost to help Suicune and its teammates. Finally, Rain Dance is viable for Suicune to support Swift Swim sweepers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Grass-types, particularly Abomasnow, Celebi, and Ferrothorn, can endure multiple Scalds and hit Suicune hard with their STAB moves. However, the burn chance from Scald may neuter the threat of the latter. Latias and Latios can take on anything Suicune has to offer and deal extreme damage to it. Thundurus-T is a notable check to Suicune as its powerful Thunderbolt is a death sentence for Suicune. Although Suicune is reasonably bulky, its lack of recovery means powerful attacks, particularly Terrakion's Close Combat, will take their toll on it. Bulky Water-types, particularly Gastrodon, Jellicent, and Vaporeon, don't mind anything Suicune does and can wear it down with Toxic. Kyurem-B can take Suicune on and reset its boosts with Dragon Tail or smash it with Fusion Bolt. Toxicroak takes nothing from Suicune and can use it as setup fodder. Finally, defensive Ninetales can weaken Suicune's Scald with the sun and can Roar it out, resetting any boosts it had obtained.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Suicune gets Water Absorb from the Dream World. This ability will be more useful than Pressure as it allows Suicune to come in on Water-types such as Keldeo and have some form of recovery aside from Rest. Pressure's PP stalling may be missed at times, but Water Absorb will be the superior ability the majority of the time.</p>


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  12. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    GP check implemented. Let's get a second one on the road.
  13. Woodchuck

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    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    <p>Back in the GSC and ADV eras, Suicune was once one of the best Pokemon in the game. A Water typing along with excellent 100 / 115 / 115 defenses make Suicune a defensive behemoth, while access to Calm Mind and a decent 90 Special Attack are icing on the cake. Unfortunately, a lot has changed, and Suicune struggles to stand up to the new metagame. BW2 has ushered in a more fast -paced and highly offensive metagame, which means Suicune's bulk sometimes isn't enough to withstand even unboosted hits. The ever-present nuisances of Ferrothorn and Celebi make it hard for Suicune as well. Finally, Suicune receives stiff competition from the likes of other Pokemon such as Keldeo and Latias as a Calm Mind user in OU.</p>

    <p>However, Suicune does have its perks. Suicune stands strong with its unparalleled mixed bulk, especially in comparison to other bulky Water-types. Its access to Calm Mind and good STAB can make Suicune a strong offensive threat as well. Suicune also benefits from the presence of rain, as its typing allows it to take on many common threats in rain while it enjoys the buffoost rain grants tof its own STAB move. Suicune may have taken a hit in its effectiveness, but it still stands strong as a bulky Water-type that can hit potentially hit hard.</p>

    [SET]
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A relic from the ADV era, CroCune stands as Suicune's only viable set in the BW2 OU metagame. Using its high defenses, good typing, and Calm Mind, Suicune can make for a solid and bulky late-game sweeper. While the sleep mechanics of the fifth generation have somewhat hindered this set's effectiveness, Suicune's unparalleled bulk allows it to survive the turns of Rest, especially when its counters have been removed from the match. Pressure is also a great asset, allowing Suicune to stall the PP of moves such as Thunder and Giga Drain. Boosting Suicune's special stats to formidable levels with Calm Mind is this set's ultimate goal. Scald is a solid STAB move that hits fairly hard after multiple boosts; the burning chance also complements Suicune's ability to take hits. Rest is unfortunately Suicune's only form of recovery, although Suicune has enough bulk to endure the sleep turns. Sleep Talk is in the final moveslot so that Suicune can accomplish either gaining extra boosts or firing off Scalds while it's asleep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread and nature invests fully into physical bulk as Calm Mind is boostings Special Defense, hence maximizing Suicune's overall bulk. Leftovers is chosen for its consistent recovery. Politoed is a useful teammate to summon rain to buff the power of Suicune's Scald, making it harder to take on. Scizor and Weavile can utilize Pursuit to check Latias, Latios, and Celebi, all common counters to Suicune. Alternatively, Choice Band Tyranitar can trap troublesome Jellicent and Latias, and although Suicune doesn't necessarily enjoy the sandstorm due to itsthe passive damage, it can still get its job done. Celebi or Ferrothorn make potent teammates as well, absorbing troublesome Grass- and Electric-type moves that Suicune often struggles with, while itSuicune returns the favor by taking on Fire-type moves. The latter also provides entry hazard support, which can be beneficial. Gothitelle makes for a great teammate, trapping and heavily denting Suicune's common counters such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Vaporeon. Finally, Magnezone is very useful to remove Ferrothorn from the match.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Suicune has a shallow movepool, it does have some other options it could use. Suicune is perfectly capable of using its access to Calm Mind to take a more offensive approach, but it is generally outclassed by Keldeo in this regard. Ice Beam is a solid coverage move that can handle Grass- and Dragon-types well. Roar is a good move to shuffle the opposing team on more defensive sets. Hidden Power Grass or Electric is perfectly usable if opposing Water-types pose a significant threat to the team. Toxic is also usable to wear down defensive Pokemon. Tailwind is an interesting option for a temporary speed boost to help Suicune and its teammates. Finally, Rain Dance is viable for Suicune to support Swift Swim sweepers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Grass-types, particularly Abomasnow, Celebi, and Ferrothorn, can endure multiple Scalds and hit Suicune hard with their STAB moves. However, the burn chance from Scald may neuter the threat of the latter. Latias and Latios can take on anything Suicune has to offer and deal extreme damage to either Trick or bypass Suicune's Special Defense boosts with Psyshock. Thundurus-T is a notable check to Suicune, as its powerful Thunderbolt is a death sentence for Suicunewithout several Special Defense boosts. Although Suicune is reasonably bulky, its lack of recovery means powerful attacks, particularly such as Terrakion's Close Combat, and Salamence's Outrage will take their toll on it. Bulky Water-types, particularly Gastrodon, Jellicent, and Vaporeon, don't mind anything Suicune does and can wear it down with Toxic. Kyurem-B can take Suicune on and reset its boosts with Dragon Tail or smash it with Fusion Bolt. Toxicroak takes nothing from Suicune and can use it as setup fodder. Finally, defensive Ninetales can weaken Suicune's Scald with the sun and Roar it out, resetting any boosts it had obtained.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Suicune gets Water Absorb from the Dream World. This ability will be more useful than Pressure, as it allows Suicune to come in on Water-types such as Keldeo and have some form of recovery aside from Rest. Pressure's PP stalling may be missed at times, but Water Absorb will be the superior ability the majority of the time.</p>

    c/p (open)
    [Overview]

    <p>Back in the GSC and ADV eras, Suicune was once one of the best Pokemon in the game. A Water typing along with excellent 100 / 115 / 115 defenses make Suicune a defensive behemoth, while access to Calm Mind and a decent 90 Special Attack are icing on the cake. Unfortunately, a lot has changed, and Suicune struggles to stand up to the new metagame. BW2 has ushered in a more fast-paced and highly offensive metagame, which means Suicune's bulk sometimes isn't enough to withstand even unboosted hits. The ever-present nuisances of Ferrothorn and Celebi make it hard for Suicune as well. Finally, Suicune receives stiff competition from the likes of other Pokemon such as Keldeo and Latias as a Calm Mind user in OU.</p>

    <p>However, Suicune does have its perks. Suicune stands strong with its unparalleled mixed bulk, especially in comparison to other bulky Water-types. Its access to Calm Mind and good STAB can make Suicune a strong offensive threat as well. Suicune also benefits from the presence of rain, as its typing allows it to take on many common threats in rain while it enjoys the boost rain grants to its own STAB move. Suicune may have taken a hit in its effectiveness, but it still stands strong as a bulky Water-type that can potentially hit hard.</p>

    [SET]
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A relic from the ADV era, CroCune stands as Suicune's only viable set in the BW2 OU metagame. Using its high defenses, good typing, and Calm Mind, Suicune can make for a solid and bulky late-game sweeper. While the sleep mechanics of the fifth generation have somewhat hindered this set's effectiveness, Suicune's unparalleled bulk allows it to survive the turns of Rest, especially when its counters have been removed from the match. Pressure is also a great asset, allowing Suicune to stall the PP of moves such as Thunder and Giga Drain. Boosting Suicune's special stats to formidable levels with Calm Mind is this set's ultimate goal. Scald is a solid STAB move that hits fairly hard after multiple boosts; the burn chance also complements Suicune's ability to take hits. Rest is unfortunately Suicune's only form of recovery, although Suicune has enough bulk to endure the sleep turns. Sleep Talk is in the final moveslot so that Suicune can accomplish either gaining extra boosts or firing off Scalds while it's asleep.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EV spread and nature invests fully into physical bulk as Calm Mind boosts Special Defense, hence maximizing Suicune's overall bulk. Leftovers is chosen for its consistent recovery. Politoed is a useful teammate to summon rain to buff the power of Suicune's Scald. Scizor and Weavile can utilize Pursuit to check Latias, Latios, and Celebi, all common counters to Suicune. Alternatively, Choice Band Tyranitar can trap troublesome Jellicent and Latias, although Suicune doesn't necessarily enjoy the sandstorm due to the passive damage. Celebi or Ferrothorn make potent teammates as well, absorbing troublesome Grass- and Electric-type moves that Suicune often struggles with, while Suicune returns the favor by taking on Fire-type moves. The latter also provides entry hazard support, which can be beneficial. Gothitelle makes for a great teammate, trapping and heavily denting Suicune's common counters such as Toxicroak, Jellicent, and Vaporeon. Finally, Magnezone is very useful to remove Ferrothorn from the match.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Suicune has a shallow movepool, it does have some other options it could use. Suicune is perfectly capable of using its access to Calm Mind to take a more offensive approach, but it is generally outclassed by Keldeo in this regard. Ice Beam is a solid coverage move that can handle Grass- and Dragon-types well. Roar is a good move to shuffle the opposing team on more defensive sets. Hidden Power Grass or Electric is perfectly usable if opposing Water-types pose a significant threat to the team. Toxic is also usable to wear down defensive Pokemon. Tailwind is an interesting option for a temporary speed boost to help Suicune and its teammates. Finally, Rain Dance is viable for Suicune to support Swift Swim sweepers.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Grass-types, particularly Abomasnow, Celebi, and Ferrothorn, can endure multiple Scalds and hit Suicune hard with their STAB moves. However, the burn chance from Scald may neuter the threat of the latter. Latias and Latios can take on anything Suicune has to offer and either Trick or bypass Suicune's Special Defense boosts with Psyshock. Thundurus-T is a notable check to Suicune, as its powerful Thunderbolt is a death sentence without several Special Defense boosts. Although Suicune is reasonably bulky, its lack of recovery means powerful attacks such as Terrakion's Close Combat and Salamence's Outrage will take their toll on it. Bulky Water-types, particularly Gastrodon, Jellicent, and Vaporeon, don't mind anything Suicune does and can wear it down with Toxic. Kyurem-B can take Suicune on and reset its boosts with Dragon Tail or smash it with Fusion Bolt. Toxicroak takes nothing from Suicune and can use it as setup fodder. Finally, defensive Ninetales can weaken Suicune's Scald with the sun and Roar it out, resetting any boosts it had obtained.</p>

    [Unreleased]

    <p>Suicune gets Water Absorb from the Dream World. This ability will be more useful than Pressure, as it allows Suicune to come in on Water-types such as Keldeo and have some form of recovery aside from Rest. Pressure's PP stalling may be missed at times, but Water Absorb will be the superior ability the majority of the time.</p>

    I would have liked more explanation for a reason to actually use Suicune on a team other than <generic bulky Water-type role that Politoed can also play> and an explanation of what Suicune actually does for its team other than "taking on Fire-type moves", but this sort of thing is up for QC members to check before giving the third stamp.
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  14. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Check implemented. This is done.
  15. PK Gaming

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