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Suicune [full revamp] Stage 1 [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by kd24, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    we're waiting on jabba to write the supercune set. whoever did the old counter section forgot to mention celebi i think or it was clogged in between the heavy mentions of mantine and poliwrath. removed that garbage and made this relevant.

    [Overview]

    <p>Suicune is one of if not the the best Pokemon in the game. It is almost impossible to KO and even harder to stop once it gets rolling with Calm Mind and high defenses. When used properly, it can sweep entire teams with ease.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar / Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is the classic Suicune set. Once it switches in, Suicune can usually start setting up Calm Minds right away. With a few Calm Mind boosts under its belt, it can proceed to attack with Surf. The last moves are all interchangeable but all function very differently. Sleep Talk allows Suicune to set up against most Pokemon and continue to be a threat, even while Resting. You should definitely consider this option for a team that revolves around Suicune, as it keeps any Pokemon that may think about trying to dent it while sleeping at bay. It also gives Suicune an easier time against Zapdos, provided Zapdos has Roar and Suicune has a few Calm Mind boosts. Roar wins out against other Calm Minders (including other Suicune!) and, when paired with Spikes, can keep forcing out Suicune's most common switch-ins: Blissey, Celebi, and Raikou. Roar also acts as a last-ditch attempt to stop any physical Pokemon that got one too many boosts against you. Finally, Ice Beam plays a direct offensive role, allowing Suicune to effectively check Salamence and Flygon throughout the game while also beating Zapdos and Celebi much easier. If the opponent tries to stall Suicune out, Ice Beam can freeze their counters.</p>

    <p>Maximize Suicune's HP and Defense in order for it to take on Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, Metagross, and other physical powerhouses. If Choice Band Tyranitar is constantly ruining your day, consider raising Suicune's Speed to 222 with 64 EVs. This will outspeed any Adamant Tyranitar and let you take them out. It also gives Suicune the jump on other Suicune if both are using Roar.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 192 SpA / 64 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Unlike SuperCune, this set uses some of Suicune's most common counters as setup fodder. Max HP prevents Blissey from ever breaking your Substitute with Seismic Toss, allowing you to boost up with Calm Mind. If sandstorm isn't active, Suicune can actually set up all of its Calm Minds and keep a Substitute intact while still killing Blissey. Substitute also blocks Toxic and Leech Seed from bulky Water-types and Celebi, respectively. Surf is the usual attack, but Hydro Pump provides more immediate power for taking on threats such as Snorlax. The PP and accuracy of Surf make it the better option most of the time, though./p>

    <p>Use 64 Speed EVs to beat max Speed Tyranitar to the punch. You can run more Speed to set up on slower Zapdos and Celebi more easily, but it's hard to gauge just how much Speed either of them will be running.</p>

    SUPERCUNE GOES HERE OR ABOVE THIS SET

    [SET]
    name: Non-Calm Mind
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Roar
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Suicune can simply function as an excellent wall without Calm Mind. Sleep Talk allows Suicune to shuffle through Roar and Surf, racking up Spikes damage on its most common switch-ins while still posing a threat to Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and others. The threat of a Roar while asleep is what separates this from most bulky Water-types, and is why this Suicune has become more popular. While you won't sweep many teams with this variant of Suicune, you'll be able to effectively wall most of the metagame, as Roar will constantly be shuffling anything that attempts to set up on you. Just be careful of being setup fodder for opposing Spikes users, as Suicune has no real way to threaten them.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>With Suicune's fantastic Defense, it can easily switch in and set up Reflect to support its teammates. Mirror Coat can surprise Electric-types hoping to deal heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Toxic can be used to wear down last Pokemon Blissey or to Rest stall some of Suicune's counters. It's a decent option, but generally just doesn't have room on Suicune's standard sets.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best counter to Suicune is Celebi, which can set up Leech Seed, match Suicune with Calm Mind, and even use Perish Song to force it out. Suicune can use Ice Beam, but Celebi's presence is enough to usually force Suicune to sit around for much of the game. Calm Mind Jirachi can set up Calm Minds alongside Suicune and blast it with Thunderbolt, but must be cautious of Roar or critical hits. Blissey is yet another Calm Minder that can set up, but defensive Blissey will struggle to get going. Regice can Psych Up boosts and use Thunderbolt to force Suicune out. Milotic can temporarily put Suicune out of commission with Toxic or Hypnosis, which allows another sweeper to set up on it or just go for the KO. Gyarados is a solid answer thanks to its decent natural Special Defense. It also has Taunt at its disposal to prevent Suicune from using Roar; it can set up Dragon Dance boosts at will and sweep.</p>

    <p>Suicune is highly vulnerable when asleep if it lacks Sleep Talk; hard hitters such as Choice Band Salamence can KO it before it wakes up. Most powerful Choice Band users work similarly—with the exception of Metagross, as Suicune resists Meteor Mash—but Metagross's Earthquake isn't much weaker than Salamence's Hidden Power Flying. Heracross can take Suicune on any time whether it's awake or asleep, but a sleeping Suicune is much easier to switch in on. Choice Band Megahorn 2HKOes Suicune, and Heracross also has decent Special Defense to take a few Surfs. However, Heracross should be cautious of more offensive versions of Suicune.</p>

    <p>Zapdos can take Suicune on with STAB Thunderbolt, but it doesn't like switching into Ice Beam. Raikou fares a bit better, as it has better Special Defense and isn't weak to Ice or Water; it can also set up Calm Mind against Suicune that is sleeping or that lacks Roar and try to sweep Suicune's whole team. Even Roar variants will often be too afraid to stay in and phaze for fear of taking ~70% from Thunderbolt, and even if they do, Raikou can just come right back in and try it again. If you wait too long, however, Suicune can get some Calm Mind boosts in, and with as little as one Calm Mind, that 2HKO can become a 3HKO, and Suicune's 3HKO on the counter can be a 2HKO. This is why physical threats such as Heracross are such good counters compared to Electric-types: even if Suicune gets several Calm Mind boosts, Heracross can take it out with impunity. Of course, immediate response to Suicune in the form of a hard hitter will also stop this. While Tyranitar itself loses handily to Suicune, its Sand Stream ability puts a damper on Suicune's tanking ability, as Suicune lacks recovery outside of Rest and Leftovers.</p>
  2. H-C

    H-C

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    Maybe an Offensive CM Set (without Sub) can be add I think (CM, Hpump, Ice Beam, HP Electric). About SubCune, I don't really see the interest of Hydro Pump since it already beats Blissey 1vs1 with Surf.
  3. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    hence the bold supercune goes here. as for hydro pump, we came together as a group to decide hydro pump is decent because it can do stuff like weaken down blissey enough in sand (sand fucks up your subs) and is a generally hard hitting move for things like lax switching in.
  4. cookie

    cookie Administrator
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    you probably wanna pair the offensive set with adamant dugtrio
  5. reyscarface

    reyscarface
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    cune without calm mind isnt cune in my opinion.
  6. Danilo

    Danilo
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    can u clarify what u mean? do you mean that the set should be removed?
  7. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush in brazil rain
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    I'd put Non-CM Restalk on Other Options at best. Non-CM Cune is just... not... worth... at all.




    I mean, does anybody actually use this set?_?
  8. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Non-CM cune is a monster with rest + sleep talk + roar and spikes support.
    It wont sweep as a CMcune, and it works completely different, but that doesnt mean the set is bad.
    It never dies, pressure kills PPs, it absorbs sleep, it's an awesome phazer (curselax, BP bi and other set uppers have no chance).
  9. Royal Flush

    Royal Flush in brazil rain
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    I wouldn't say bad, but inferior, regardless of working different... Calm Mind is just too good to not use it.
  10. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Honestly, the only person I've ever really seen run non-CM cune is M Dragon. I have no doubt that it can work, but I don't feel like it should be listed at the same level as the CM sets.
  11. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    I use ice beam/surf/rest/sleep talk cune. Hold on, let me find my team.

    EDIT:

    <spoiler>Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 176 Spd / 16 SAtk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Baton Pass
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Recover

    Note: could never decide between leech seed and recover

    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Spd / 224 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Thunderbolt

    Flygon (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Hidden Power [Bug]
    - Substitute
    - Toxic

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 8 Spd / 72 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Ice Beam
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Surf


    Note: I run 72 SAtk to OHKO Salamence with IB. I don't know why I have 8 Spd, seems rather pointless on cune without Roar, probably had my reasons back then when I made this lol

    Gengar (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 176 Spd / 82 SAtk
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Fire Punch
    - Focus Punch
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt

    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Spikes
    - Whirlwind</spoiler>

    Would CMCune really be better in this team? I doubt that, especially with cmpass celebi. The loss of either IB or Surf suddenly makes CB pokes a lot more problematic, especially if cune is your main answer to them (which is probably the case unless you want to run two waters, there may be exceptions e.g. if you have two intimidaters).

    Double-edit: I don't know how to spoiler, both [spoiler] and <spoiler> don't seem to work. Maybe a mod can do it for me?
  12. Jukain

    Jukain fuck redew
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    just a nitpick but the first set should be "Defensive Calm Mind" not "Calm Mind Defense"
  13. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Yeah, I agree with that.
    Non CM set should be last option, but its still good enough to be a main set. You are underrating it
  14. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego Living in a world gone plastic
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    REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

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    [Overview]

    <p>Suicune is arguably one of Either just arguable or just one of, both don't need to be there the best Pokemon in the game. It is almost impossible to KO and even harder to stop once it gets rolling with Calm Mind and high defenses. When used properly, it can sweep entire teams with ease.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk / Roar / Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This is the classic Suicune set. Once it switches in, Suicune can usually start setting up Calm Minds right away. With a few Calm Mind boosts under its belt, it can proceed to attack with Surf. The last moves are all interchangable but all function very differently. Sleep Talk allows Suicune to set up vs against most Pokemon and continue to be a threat, even while Resting. You should definitely consider this option for a team that revolves around Suicune, as it keeps any Pokemon that may think about trying to dent it while sleeping at bay. It also gives Suicune an easier time against Zapdos, provided Zapdos has Roar and Suicune has a few Calm Minds under its belt boosts. Roar wins out against other Calm Minders (including other Suicune!) and, when paired with Spikes, can keep forcing out Suicune's most common switch-ins: Blissey, Celebi, and Raikou. Roar also acts as a last-ditch attempt to stop any physical Pokemon who that got one too many boosts against you. Finally, Ice Beam plays a direct offensive role, allowing Suicune to effectively check Salamence and Flygon throughout the game, (RC) while also beating Zapdos and Celebi much easier. If the opponent tries to stall Suicune out, Ice Beam can freeze their counters.</p>

    <p>Maximize Suicune's HP and Defense in order for it to take on Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, Metagross, and other physical powerhouses. If Choice Band Tyranitar is constantly ruining your day, consider raising Suicune's Speed to 222 with 64 Speed EVs. This will outspeed any Adamant Tyranitar and let you take them out. It also gives Suicune the jump on other Suicune if both are using Roar.</p>

    SUPERCUNE GOES HERE

    [SET]
    name: Non-Calm Mind
    move 1: Surf
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Roar
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Suicune can simply function as an excellent wall without Calm Mind. Sleep Talk allows Suicune to shuffle through Roar and Surf, racking up Spikes damage on its most common switch-ins, (RC) while still posing a threat to Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, and others. The threat of Sleep Talking a Roar while asleep is what separates this from most bulky Water-types, and is why this Suicune has become more popular. While you won't sweep many teams with this variant of Suicune, you'll be able to effectively wall most of the metagame, as Roar will constantly be bouncing shuffling anything that attempts to set up on you. Just be careful of being setup fodder for opposing spikers, as Suicune has no real way to threaten them.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 192 SpA / 64 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Unlike SuperCune, this set uses some of Suicune's most common counters as setup fodder. Investing Max HP prevents Blissey from ever breaking your Substitute with Seismic Toss, allowing you to boost up with Calm Mind up. If sandstorm isn't active, Suicune can actually set up all of its Calm Minds and keep a Substitute intact, (RC) while still killing Blissey. Substitute also blocks Toxic and Leech Seed from bulky Water-types and Celebi, respectively. Surf is the usual attack, but Hydro Pump provides more immediate power for taking on threats like such as Snorlax. The PP and accuracy of Surf usually makes it the better option most of the time, though./p>

    <p>Use 64 Speed EVs to beat max Speed Tyranitar to the punch. You can run more Speed to set up on slower Zapdos and Celebi more easily, but it's hard to gauge just how much Speed either of them will be running.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>With Suicune's fantastic Defense, it can easily switch in and set up Reflect to support its teammates. Mirror Coat can surprise Electric-types hoping to deal heavy damage with Thunderbolt. Toxic can be used to wear down last Pokemon Blissey or to Rest stall some of Suicune's counters. It's a decent option, but generally just doesn't have room on Suicune's standard sets.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>The best counter to Suicune is Celebi, who which can set up Leech Seed, match Suicune with Calm Mind alongside it, and even use Perish Song to force it out. Suicune can use Ice Beam, but Celebi's presence is enough to usually force Suicune to sit around for much of the game. Calm Mind Jirachi can set up Calm Minds alongside Suicune and blast it with Thunderbolt, but must be cautious of Roar or critical hits. Blissey is yet another Calm Minder who that can set up, but defensive Blisseys will struggle to get going. Regice can Psych Up boosts and use Thunderbolt to force Suicune out. Milotic can temporarily put Suicune out of commission with Toxic or Hypnosis, which allows another sweeper to set up on it or just go for the KO. Gyarados is a solid answer thanks to its decent natural Special Defense. It also has Taunt at its disposal to prevent Suicune from using Roar; it can set up Dragon Dance boosts at will and sweep.</p>

    <p>Suicune is highly vulnerable when asleep if it lacks Sleep Talk; hard hitters such as Choice Band Salamence can KO it before it wakes up. Most powerful Choice Band users work similarly—with the exception of Metagross, as Suicune resists Meteor Mash—but Metagross's Earthquake isn't much weaker than Salamence's Hidden Power Flying. Heracross can take it Suicune on any time whether it's awake or asleep, but a sleeping Suicune is much easier to switch in on. Choice Band Megahorn 2HKOes Suicune, and Heracross also has decent Special Defense to take a few Surfs. However, Heracross should be cautious of more offensive versions of Suicune.</p>

    <p>Zapdos can take Suicune on with STAB Thunderbolt, but it doesn't like switching into Ice Beam. Raikou fares a bit better, as it has better Special Defense and isn't weak to Ice or Water; it can also set up Calm Mind against Suicune that is sleeping or that lacks Roar, (RC) and try to sweep its Suicune's whole team. Even Roar variants will often be too afraid to stay in and phaze for fear of taking ~70% from Thunderbolt, and even if they do, Raikou can just come right back in and try it again. If you wait too long, however, Suicune can get some Calm Mind boosts in, and with as little as one Calm Mind, that 2HKO can become a 3HKO, and Suicune's 3HKO on the counter can be a 2HKO. This is why physical threats such as Heracross are such good counters compared to Electric-types: even if Suicune gets several Calm Mind boosts, Heracross can take it out with impunity. Of course, immediate response to Suicune in the form of a hard hitter will also stop this. While Tyranitar itself loses handily to Suicune, its Sand Stream ability puts a damper on Suicune's tanking ability, as the latter Suicune lacks a recovery move outside of Rest and Leftovers.</p>


    Not SCMSing because Supercune and stuff that I'm not sure on
    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  15. HUARGH

    HUARGH

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    Where's the supercune set? Been a while now.
  16. reyscarface

    reyscarface
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    like royal flush said, calm mind is too good not to use and sleep talk is extremely situational, its not a 100% surefire move. id rather have calm mind on my set and be able to sweep or deal massive damage than having a 1/3 chance of hitting the move i want per turn with no sweeping capabilities whatsoever in the longrun.

    speaking of sleep talk, it should be slashed last in defensive cm. roar and ice beam are both superior options, crocune hasnt been as good as it was years ago. (celebi all over the place, same for cm blissey)
  17. Danilo

    Danilo
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    ive been using non cm cune for a while and while it has its merits, i belongs in oo. i think sleep talk is worse than ice beam on the first set if you're playing Suicune to its strengths, though.
  18. meteor64

    meteor64

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    Isn't the supercune spread simply a 252/252 deal? Why are we waiting for it? :S
  19. Oglemi

    Oglemi <&Oglemi> i am a gay badger buddy :3
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    this has been uploaded save for supercune

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