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OU Suicune

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Alter, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] / --
    Suicune | #245

    [BW2 Smogon | Serebii | Bulbapedia]
    Overview
    ########
    While it has faced increased competition from the likes of Clefable as a defensive Calm Mind user, Suicune still manages to hold its ground in the Overused environment. Blessed with amazing mixed bulk and a relatively good defensive typing, Suicune has almost all of the tools it needs to be an excellent win condition for teams. Unfortunately for Suicune, a fast-paced and offensive metagame makes its once godly bulk now questionable. This weakness is only compounded by its subpar Speed and starting power.

    Defensive Calm Mind
    ########
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    nature: Bold

    Moves
    ========
    Although Suicune's movepool is by no means extraordinary, it can still make perfect use of its flagship Calm Mind set, which has certainly stood the test of time. Calm Mind is used to boost Suicune's Special Attack and Special Defense simultaneously with the ultimate aim of a sweep. Scald is Suicune's only attacking move, and is chosen over other options such as Surf solely due to its burn chance. This makes up for Suicune's unboosted physical bulk and prevents Pokemon such as Dragonite and Gyarados from boosting in its face. Also notable is the fact that a Scald burn can also help wear down special walls more quickly. Because Suicune will be taking a plethora of hits while setting up, Rest is mandatory to heal off both damage and status. Sleep Talk is used alongside it so that Suicune can continue boosting and attacking while asleep.

    Set Details
    ========
    In terms of items, Leftovers is the clear option for Suicune. This provides it with a form of residual recovery, which helps it obtain boosts. There are no other viable alternatives. The EV spread maximizes Suicune's physical bulk because Calm Mind will already be boosting its Special Defense. A Bold nature is used for the same reason.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    This CroCune set is best brought out in the endgame. It is by no means an immediate threat, and will need to have its checks and counters either worn down or KOed, but it is highly problematic for fractured to deal with, and can be a threatening late-game sweeper given time.

    The premise is simple: begin by setting up Calm Minds as soon as possible, and heal off damage and status using Rest. Note that it is generally not necessary to boost all the way up to +6, and attempting to do so comes with the risk of an untimely fatal critical hit. Scald can be used even before Suicune is fully set-up to burn threats, and after enough boosts, a combination of Scald and RestTalk should be sufficient for a both bulky and powerful boosted Suicune to come out on top.

    Team Options
    ========
    Toxic Spikes users greatly improve the effectiveness of this set as most of Suicune's counters are vulnerable to them. Specifically, Pokemon that can wall Suicune's mono-attacking coverage or power or that are otherwise unthreatened by its power, such as Unaware Clefable, Blissey, and Quagsire, all fall to Toxic Spikes. Pokemon that can form a Fire / Water / Grass core with Suicune have excellent defensive synergy with it and are thus excellent partners. Examples of this include Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Heatran. Alternatively, one can run Suicune alongside wallbreakers such as Kyurem-B and Hydreigon, which can wear down Suicune's checks and set up a late-game Suicune sweep.

    Other Options
    ########
    Despite having a very shallow movepool, Suicune does have a few other options it can play around with. The combination of Roar and Calm Mind allows Suicune to phaze opposing sweepers and gain the upper hand. However, the lost recovery from Rest makes this set mediocre at best. Tailwind is also an interesting option on more offensive sets. An EV spread of 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe allows Suicune to outpace +1 Haxorus after Tailwind, as well as Adamant Breloom before the boost. Such a set would most likely use Suicune's few other offensive options: Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, and Hidden Power Electric or Grass. A Rain Dance set could be used to support teammates with Swift Swim while also strengthening Suicune's STAB at the same time.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Grass-types**: Grass-type Pokemon make excellent checks to Suicune and, in some cases, can even wall it or instantly overpower it. In particular, Roserade, Mega Venusaur, and to some extent Ferrothorn are excellent in this regard. On the other hand, Roserade possesses the immediate power to destroy Suicune with a combination of Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm. Mega Venusaur walls Suicune with ease, being able to attack back with Giga Drain and Leech Seed. Ferrothorn can also somewhat check Suicune, but it hates being burnt. Therefore, the outcome of this matchup greatly depends on whether or not this happens.

    **Water Absorb**: Due to the mono-attacking nature of Suicune's main set, it has great trouble bypassing Water-immune Pokemon such as Gastrodon and Vaporeon. However, most Pokemon under this category cannot directly take Suicune down, and must instead rely on status moves such as Toxic, which Suicune can heal off with Rest. As such, the head-to-head matchup between Suicune and these Pokemon is inevitably a long stall war. Nonetheless, Suicune's only real way of bypassing these Pokemon is through Toxic Spikes support.

    **Phazers**: While Pokemon with phazing moves cannot directly beat Suicune in a one-on-one scenario, they are still excellent checks to a Calm Mind sweep. Latias, Goodra, and Slowking can all take Suicune's Scald and proceed to phaze it out with Roar or Dragon Tail.

    **Unaware**: Unaware's mechanics allow Pokemon with this ability, such as Clefable and Quagsire, to easily sponge Suicune's boosted attacks and retaliate regardless of its Special Defense boosts.

    **Taunt**: Taunt is a relevant check to Suicune if used before it begins stacking Calm Mind boosts because it prevents Suicune from using three out of four of its moves. Notably, Thundurus wields a Prankster-boosted Taunt in conjunction with super effective STAB in the form of Thunderbolt or Thunder to KO Suicune.

    **Offense**: Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, Thundurus, and Thundurus-T can break through Suicune with sheer offensive power. For example, Kyurem-B with maximum investment in Attack achieves a 2HKO on Suicune with a Life Orb-boosted Fusion Bolt. It is important to note one can only rely on this strategy to beat Suicune before it has garnered too many boosts.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 6, 2014
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  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    approving this skeleton

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  3. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    I wouldn't really mention Surf in AC. Scald is almost always going to be the better option solely because it can cause burn status, which helps immensely against special walls that might still be lingering. It also compensates for Suicune's physical bulk that isn't being boosted and prevents Pokemon such as Dragonite and Gyarados from obliviously boosting in your face.

    Under usage tips, you should probably mention when it might be worth it to stop Calm Mind boosting. Some people get way too greedy with Calm Mind and they end up being crit from some attack and losing their win condition because of that. If you don't need to reach +6, then don't reach +6. Typically you don't need to max out your boosts to sweep, anyway. Only reach +6 if the Pokemon you are up against has no chance at beating you with critical hits.

    For team options, I would suggest mentioning Toxic Spikes. This helps Suicune actually overcome some of its counters, such as Jellicent, Clefable, Blissey, and Quagsire. Yes it might conflict with Scald burns, but the Scald burns will still be extremely useful for the Levitators and Flying- and Steel-types.

    Excellent skeleton otherwise.

    QC 2/3
  4. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Thanks for the excellent feedback, Fuzznip. I will implement all of these changes and begin writing.

    ~edit: Finished writing. Ready for 3rd check.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  5. Plus

    Plus bus
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    QC 3/3
  6. melvni

    melvni
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    Additions in Blue
    Subtractions in Red
    Comments in Purple
    Show Hide
    Overview
    ########
    Formerly being considered one of the best sweepers in the game for generations in a row is a testament to Suicune's near unparalleled ability to accumulate Calm Mind boosts. (this was true in 3rd and 4th gen, not 5th, so I think you'd be better off just starting with your second sentence) While competition has grown from the likes of Reuniclus and Jirachi as a Calm Mind user, Suicune still manages to hold its ground in the Overused environment. Blessed with amazing mixed bulk and a relatively good defensive typing, Suicune has almost all of the tools it needs to be an excellent win condition for teams. Unfortunately for Suicune, a fast-paced and offensive metagame makes its once godly bulk now questionable. This weakness is only compounded by its subpar Speed and starting power.

    Defensive Calm Mind
    ########
    name: CroCune
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Sleep Talk
    ability: Pressure (Pressure is the only released ability I'm pretty sure, so you don't need to list it)
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    nature: Bold

    Moves
    ========
    Although Suicune's movepool is by no means extraordinary, it can still make perfect use of this its flagship Calm Mind set (add comma) which has certainly stood the test of time. Calm Mind is used to boost Suicune's Special Attack and Special Defense simultaneously with the ultimate aim of a sweep. Scald is Suicune's only attacking move (add comma) which is being used over other options solely because it can cause burn status. This makes up for Suicune's unboosted physical bulk and prevents Pokemon such as Dragonite and Gyarados from boosting in your its face. Notably, Scald's burn status can also help wear down the health of special walls which may that are still be lingering. Because Suicune will be taking a plethora of hits, Rest is mandatory to heal off both damage and status. As a result, Sleep Talk is used alongside this it so that Suicune is allowed to boost and attack can continue boosting and attacking while asleep.

    Set Details
    ========
    In terms of items, Leftovers is the clear option for Suicune. This provides it with a form of residual recovery (add comma) which helps it obtain boosts. There are no other viable alternatives for this item slot. The EV spread invests fully into Suicune's physical bulk because Calm Mind will already be boosting its Special Defense. A Bold nature is used for the same reason. In effect, Suicune's overall bulk is maximized.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    This Suicune set is by no means an immediate threat; however, it becomes highly problematic for many Pokemon to deal with and can be a great late-game sweeper given time. Moreover, CroCune will need to have its checks and counters either worn down and or KOed before it can properly sweep. As such, this set it is best brought out in the endgame. This Suicune set is by no means an immediate threat; however, it becomes highly problematic for many Pokemon to deal with and can be a great late-game sweeper given time. The premise is simple: begin by setting up Calm Minds as soon as possible while healing and heal off damage and status using Rest. It is important to note that it is generally not necessary to boost all the way up to +6 and attempting to do so may can be the death of Suicune. After augmenting Suicune's power to an appropriate level, a combination of Scald and RestTalk should be sufficient enough for a win. It's important to keep in mind the and even when this level hasn't been reached yet, there are (there are other ways to rephrase this too and you are free to use a different one, but this last sentence seemed a bit awkwardly tacked on at the end here) times in which Suicune must stop boosting in order to burn a threat through the use of Scald.

    Team Options
    ========
    Teammates equipped with Toxic Spikes greatly improve the effectiveness of this set due to the fact that most of Suicune's counters are vulnerable to them. Pokemon that can wall Suicune's mono-attacking coverage or power, such as Jellicent, Blissey (add comma) and Quagsire, all fall down to Toxic Spikes. Pokemon which that can finish off form a Fire / Water / Grass core with Suicune have excellent defensive synergy and are thus excellent partners. Examples of this include Celebi, Ferrothorn (add comma) and Heatran. As a more offensive approach, Pursuit users are able to eliminate Jellicent and Celebi, two of Suicune's best counters. Tyranitar, Scizor (add comma) and Weavile can all fit this role effectively. Scizor, along with Genesect, is also notable for being able to scare out or OHKO Celebi with its high-powered U-turns. Alternatively, Suicune can be placed alongside wallbreakers such as Kyurem-B and Hydreigon which that can wear down Suicune's checks and make it easier to sweep in the endgame.

    Other Options
    ########
    Despite having a very shallow movepool, Suicune does have a few other options it can play around with. Roar is available combined with Calm Mind as an option which allows Suicune to phaze opposing sweepers and gain the upper hand. However, the lost recovery in the form of Rest makes this set mediocre at best. Tailwind is also an interesting option to use on more offensive sets. An EV Spread spread of 112 HP / 252 SpA / 144 Spe allows Suicune to outpace a +1 Haxorus after Tailwind as well as Adamant Breloom before the boost. Such a set would most likely use Suicune's few other offensive options: Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Electric or Grass. Furthermore, a Rain Dance set is also possible and could be used to support teammates with Swift Swim.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Grass-types**: Grass-type Pokemon make excellent checks to Suicune and, in some cases, can even wall it or instantly overpower it. In particular, Celebi, Ferrothorn, and Roserade (add comma) and to some extent Ferrothorn (later you say Ferrothorn is dependent on not getting burnt and can only somewhat check Suicune; plus you talk about it third) are all excellent in this regard. Celebi takes little damage from Suicune's attacks and can use Perish Song or Leech Seed to disrupt its sweep attempts. On the other hand, Roserade possesses the immediate power to destroy Suicune with a combination of Sludge Bomb and Leaf Storm. Ferrothorn can only also somewhat check Suicune (add comma) due to the fact that but it hates being burnt. Therefore, the matchup can differ a lot depending on whether or not it gets burnt this happens.

    **Water Absorb**: Given that Suicune's only main set is a mono-attacker, it has great trouble bypassing Pokemon such as Gastrodon and Jellicent. Even though Because these Pokemon can completely wall Suicune, a long stall war is inevitable between Suicune's Rest and status moves such as Toxic thrown by the opponent if it stays in against these threats. Suicune's only real way of bypassing these Pokemon is through Toxic Spikes support.

    **Phazers**: While Pokemon with phazing moves cannot directly beat Suicune in a one-versus-one one-on-one scenario, they are still excellent checks to prolonging a Calm Mind sweep. Namely, Latias, Goodra, and Slowking can all take Suicune's Scald and proceed to phaze out it it out with Roar or Dragon Tail.

    **Unaware**: Unaware's mechanics make it so that wielders ignore both attack and defense boosts in damage calculations. In turn As a result, users of Unaware such as Clefable and Quagsire can take Suicune's boosted attacks reliably and retaliate by piercing regardless of its Special Defense boosts.

    **Taunt**: Taunt is a relevant check to Suicune if used before it begins stacking Calm Mind boosts because it prevents Suicune from using three out of four of its moves. Notably, Thundurus-I Thundurus wields a Prankster-boosted Taunt in conjunction with super effective STAB in the form of Thunderbolt or Thunder to KO Suicune.

    **Offense**: Some Pokemon possess the ability to break through Suicune as a whole due to their sheer offensive power. Examples of this include Kyurem-B, Thundurus-I Thundurus, and Thundurus-T. It is important to note that relying on offense to beat Suicune is more reliable before it has started or when it has just begun boosting.


    GP: 1/2
  7. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Thanks a bunch, melvni. I have implemented your GP check and it is now ready for a second one.
  8. sirndpt

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    i might've gone a little too comment-happy haha, but i do think a few things would make more sense organisationally if shifted around. also, you have the basics explained really clearly (and have the pok├ęgrammar/conventions and such perfect!), but a little more detail in certain areas (the last part of checks and counters) would really be useful ~

    shall go ahead and call this gp 2/2, but please look through my changes and do tell me if you have any issues at all with implementing any changes i've made (anything from preferring your own wording to that i'd inadvertently changed the meaning to something inaccurate, etc). well done, nice work :)
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  9. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Thanks a ton, sirndpt! Your GP check was very insightful and I gained a lot to keep in mind when writing in the future. I've implemented your GP check and adjusted to the comments accordingly. This analysis is now complete. (I'll read again over it tomorrow morning with fresh eyes as I implemented the check pretty late)

    Note: If you have any comments or suggestions regarding a particular set (or move mention) feel free to VM me instead of posting in the thread as there is most likely a reason I (as well as QC) chose to not include it. It also helps keep the thread tidy. Thanks!
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
  10. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    ok so i see a little stuff that can be fixed (not a full gp check since the above checkers did thorough checks and the analysis doesnt have many errors):
  11. CryptoTF

    CryptoTF

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    kingler if you're going to do checks can you make sure you're not a fucking idiot first
    cheers

    "(needs more hyphen imo)"
    no it fucking doesn't

    "also notable is the fact"
    A) sounds retarded
    B) is the opposite of concise

    "with maximum investment in Attack"
    A) again, retarded
    B) again, just makes it longer without adding anything to it

    "which makes Suicune even harder for physical attackers to KO"
    all that change does is make the language more simplistic and less succinct
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013
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  12. nu nu X

    nu nu X

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    Holy crap, CroCune is unstoppable
  13. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    Why is it called "Crocune"?
  14. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    AC mention enough speed to outrun 239 (hit 240) so you outrun defensive rotor washes and Bisharp imo which are pretty useful as you can scald KO bisharp before it knocks off and get a sub up on Wash
  15. Swamp Link

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    Calm mind Rest Offensive Suicune
    Crocune, it's a term that originated in ADV and has been in usage ever since.
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  16. Johnny Rage

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    I thought it was cause of Cromat, who thought up of the set?
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  17. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    That is the reason. Compliments to you for knowing that.
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  18. Johnny Rage

    Johnny Rage

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    I forget where I read it but, thanks. :D
  19. Kavatika

    Kavatika is wary
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    I know this is done, but why is there no mention of mega venusaur in C&C?

    edit: also maybe put it in team options. the biggest stops to crocune are unaware users (clefable and quagsire), bulky waters, and bulky grass types. all of those things are handled by venusaur's stabs alone, bar ferrothorn, who can be covered with a simple hp fire. it has the plus of being more viable than ferro and celebi which you mention as grass-type partners.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
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  20. Alter

    Alter lions in her heart
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    Kavatika: For some reason I thought it was already in C&C - good find. I've replaced Celebi with Mega Venusaur in the Team Options section and added it into the Grass-types section as well. Thanks.

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