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UU Suicune

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Highways, Feb 10, 2017.

  1. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

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    [​IMG]
    QC Checks: Hogg / GrilledClawitzer / dodmen
    GP Checks: P Squared
    [OVERVIEW]

    * Suicune is one of the sturdiest walls the tier has to offer thanks to its amazing natural bulk and really solid defensive typing.
    * Due to the qualities mentioned above, Suicune easily sets up Calm Mind against a large portion of the tier.
    * Its ability puts a huge amount of pressure on bulkier squads.
    * Suicune has a decent Speed stat, which means it outspeeds many common Pokemon with the correct EV spread.
    * It doesn't have a reliable form of recovery and as such, must rely on Rest.
    * It is weak to Grass- and Electric-types, which are common offensive teams.
    * The introduction of Z-Moves made it easier for certain wallbreakers, such as Cobalion, to get past Suicune.

    [SET]
    name: RoarCune
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Calm Mind / Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    * As many setup sweepers, such as Latias and Reuniclus, will seek to set up on Suicune, Roar gives Suicune a tool to prevent such setup.
    * Scald is its main STAB move, as it has a high chance to burn the few physical attackers that threaten Suicune.
    * Rest gives Suicune a form of recovery and allows it to cure status.
    * Calm Mind helps shore up Suicune's Special Defense and can make Suicune a potent sweeper in the late-game; however, without Sleep Talk, Suicune can be taken advantage of while resting.
    * Sleep Talk can be used instead Calm Mind if the team has solid wincons and is lacking a dedicated phazer.

    Set Details
    ========

    * Leftovers gives Suicune a form of passive recovery that increases its longevity.
    * The given EV spread with a Bold nature allows Suicune to outspeed Modest Primarina and uninvested Togekiss, while the rest of the EVs are invested in its HP and Defense to maximize its bulk.
    * Pressure allows Suicune to PP stall many of the tier's staples, such as Clefable.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    * Playing aggressively with Suicune during the early-game with Scald and Roar and then setting up Calm Mind in the late-game is strongly recommended, unless the Special Defense boosts are helpful for Suicune during the early- or mid-game, such as taking advantage of Primarina and Gengar.
    * Suicune finds opportunities to switch in against passive Pokemon and has the needed bulk to check some physical attackers such as Krookodile and Mega Aerodactyl. It dislikes having its item knocked off, though, and Hone Claws variants of Mega Aerodactyl can still break through it.
    * Suicune finds opportunities to set up with Calm Mind against passive walls such as Blissey and Clefable. Some walls, such as Slowbro, can boost up alongside it and eventually beat it, though. Roar can usually deal with such Pokemon, but if they are the last remaining Pokemon, Suicune will lose.

    Team Options
    ========

    * Spikes setters, such as Klefki and Chesnaught, are always good partners to Roar sets, as opposing Pokemon are easily worn down by the layers of Spikes.
    * Cleric support from Pokemon such as Clefable and Blissey is appreciated, and it's mandatory if Suicune is lacking Sleep Talk.
    * Suicune is very appreciated on balance and semi-stall archetypes due to its phazing capabilities as well as the sweeping ability during the late-game.
    * Scizor has a good synergy with Suicune, as it resists Grass and takes hits from strong Psychic-types, such as Alakazam and Latias, while Suicune provides a check to Fire-types.
    * Ground-types such as Hippowdon and Krookodile are amazing teammates because they are immune to Electric and provide Suicune with Stealth Rock support.
    * Strong wallbreakers such as Bisharp and Gengar punish Defoggers and spinners that can remove entry hazards on Suicune, such as Latias, Tsareena, and Starmie.
    * Pokemon such as Clefable and Amoonguss that can deal with strong special attackers are good teammates as well.
    * Grass-types, mainly Tsareena and Celebi, are solid partners, as they check Electric- and Grass-types really well while playing important roles on a team, such as removing entry hazards or setting them, respectively.
    * Suicune appreciates entry hazard removal a lot, as it doesn't have a reliable form of recovery. This means Tsareena, Starmie, Tentacruel, and Scizor are solid teammates.

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind + Protect
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Scald
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    * Calm Mind gives Suicune a way to boost its Special Attack and Special Defense, and even strong special attackers will struggle against Suicune if it sets up.
    * Protect is used to stall the PP of opposing Pokemon while restoring 6.25% of Suicune's health each turn, not to mention that it can be used to scout attacks.
    * Substitute can be used in conjunction with Calm Mind to make it harder for special attackers to break the Substitute. In addition, it allows Suicune to avoid status and provides insurance against possible critical hits, but its main role is to stall the PP of common Pokemon on stall builds, such as Amoonguss, Blissey, and Clefable.
    * Scald is Suicune's main way to deal damage to foes, as it has a decent Base Power and an excellent chance to burn.

    Set Details
    ========

    * Leftovers are mandatory, as its passive recovery allows for Suicune to stay healthy. It also allows for recovering off the health lost upon creating a Substitute.
    * The given Speed EVs are used to outspeed maximum Speed Togekiss and base 70s, such as Volcanion and Bisharp. Maximum HP investment gives Suicune 404 HP so Substitute is never broken by a Seismic Toss. The rest of the EVs ensure Amoonguss is not breaking Suicune's Substitute at +1, and make it easier to take hits from strong special attackers such as Primarina.
    * Pressure allows Suicune to wear down opposing bulkier Pokemon, such as Blissey and Quagsire, as the PP of these will be reduced by 2 instead of 1 if a move is targeting Suicune.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    * This set must be played carefully, as it depends on having a huge amount of HP to begin setting up.
    * Avoid having Leftovers removed via Trick or Knock Off, as Suicune already heavily relies on it to recover its health.
    * Playing patiently against bulkier builds, mainly semi-stall and stall, is strongly recommended, as Suicune performs really well against these.
    * This set finds a lot of setup opportunities against passive Pokemon, such as non-Swords Dance Scizor, Blissey, and Clefable.
    * Use Substitute to avoid status, as it will eventually stop Suicune's opportunities to set up and sweep.

    Team Options
    ========

    * Entry hazard removal support from Pokemon such as Scizor, Tsareena, and Starmie is for sure one of the best forms of support to this set, since it hates switching in on Stealth Rock and Spikes repeatedly, especially because this set lacks Rest.
    * Cleric support from Togekiss and Tsareena is well appreciated, as this set is easily worn down by status.
    * Wish support from Pokemon such as Clefable and Blissey is helpful, since Suicune lacks a reliable form of recovery.
    * Wallbreakers that can remove Calm Mind attackers, namely Raikou and Latias, are appreciated, as Suicune can't beat those.
    * Ground- and Steel-types such as Hippowdon and Scizor support this set really well, as they easily tank Electric- and Grass-type attacks.
    * Hippowdon and Clefable, Pokemon that can take hits from strong wallbreakers, are good teammates as well, as this set is not specialized in taking strong hits from wallbreakers.
    * Grounded Poison-types such as Amoonguss and Nidoqueen can absorb Toxic Spikes, a hazard that compromises Suicune's longevity.

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Scald
    move 3: Ice Beam / Signal Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Tailwind
    item: Leftovers / Waterium Z
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    * Calm Mind is mainly used to boost Suicune's Special Attack on this set, as its main purpose is to hit as hard as possible. The Special Defense boosts are still appreciated, though, as they allow Suicune to take some special attacks better.
    * Hydro Pump is Suicune's main STAB attack due to its high Base Power, not to mention that it OHKOes some Pokemon at +1, such as Cobalion, Bisharp, and offensive Scizor.
    * Scald can be used over Hydro Pump as the STAB move, as trading a high Base Power for a move with a burn chance and perfect accuracy move is sometimes worth it.
    * Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types such as Tsareena and Latias really hard at +1.
    * Signal Beam, however, can be used instead of Ice Beam, as it hits Celebi harder while still hitting relevant Dragon-types such as Latias and Hydreigon.
    * Hidden Power Electric surprises Mantine, Empoleon, and Volcanion, which hard checks to Suicune.
    * Tailwind can be used instead of Hidden Power Electric, as it is a better option against offensive archetypes.

    Set Details
    ========

    * Leftovers gives Suicune a form of passive recovery, and based on that, certain opponents will assume that Suicune is running a defensive set.
    * Waterium Z can be used instead of Leftovers, as Suicune will take less damage from Knock Off and will hit Pokemon that would otherwise wall it, such as Clefable, harder, with a one-time nuke.
    * The given EV spread, along with a Timid nature, maximizes Suicune's Speed and Special Attack stats, which Suicune needs to outspeed threats such as Adamant Lucario while hitting as hard as possible.
    * A Modest nature can be used too, but then Suicune loses out on outspeeding some Pokemon, such as Chandelure and Togekiss.
    * An alternative spread of 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe with a Modest nature for Tailwind variants can be used, as it outspeeds Mega Aerodactyl under Tailwind and gives Suicune more bulk and power.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    * This set is a good mid- or late-game sweeper, as it isn't hard to overload its checks.
    * Using this set as an early-game wallbreaker is also recommended, as many answers to it, such as Mantine and Celebi, can be removed due to the element of surprise.
    * Bluffing defensive sets is strongly recommended, as opponents may use Pokemon such as Mantine to remove the Calm Mind boosts through Haze or Celebi to set up Nasty Plot, which Suicune can take advantage of to get a KO.
    * As Suicune is lacking bulk while using this set, switching it into strong attacks is suboptimal.

    Team Options
    ========

    * This set fits better on teams with Spikes support from Pokemon such as Klefki and Roserade, as Suicune appreciates the passive damage to more easily wallbreak.
    * Fighting-types can easily remove its counters, especially Blissey.
    * Pokemon that resist Grass, such as Scizor and Celebi, are great teammates as well.
    * Ground-types, such as Krookodile and Gliscor, help Suicune to take Electric-type attacks while it provides a check against Ice-types.
    * Strong wallbreakers such as Hydreigon and Gengar can wear down Suicune's checks easily.
    * Pursuit trappers, especially Mega Absol and Mega Aerodactyl, can trap Latias and Alakazam, Pokemon that can threaten Suicune if it didn't have the opportunity to set up Calm Mind.

    [STRATEGY COMMENTS]
    Other Options
    =============

    * Calm Mind alongside Rest and Sleep Talk is a solid option, but it is a bait for setup sweepers such as Celebi and Slowbro, as it lacks Roar.
    * Toxic can be used to surprise Pokemon such as Mantine, Gastrodon, and Volcanion, but Suicune rarely has room for it.
    * Suicune can run Extrasensory or Air Slash to hit Toxicroak, but its uses are pretty limited otherwise.
    * Rain Dance is an option on a set with Waterium Z, but offensive Suicune lacks coverage with only two attacking moves, so this set is largely outclassed by stronger sweepers such as Keldeo.

    Checks and Counters
    ===================
    **Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Celebi and Decidueye threaten Suicune with their powerful STAB moves while taking little damage from Scald, but the latter hates being burned and both struggle against the offensive variant.

    **Electric-types**: Electric-types such as Raikou and Magneton can OHKO Suicune with their hard-hitting Electric-type STAB moves, but they hate being burned too.

    **Water-immune Pokemon**: Pokemon that are immune to Water, such as Mantine, Volcanion, Gastrodon, and Toxicroak, can wall Suicune perfectly. Mantine and Volcanion can carry Haze, Gastrodon can run Curse and defeat Suicune one-on-one, and Toxicroak easily sets up Swords Dance in front of Suicune.

    **Strong Wallbreakers**: Pokemon such as Choice Band Krookodile, Swords Dance Bisharp, and Choice Specs Keldeo can take advantage of Suicune's lack of reliable recovery and easily wear it down.

    **Bulky Taunt Users**: Hydreigon and Mew can take hits from Suicune really well, as they have a reliable form of recovery, and proceed to wear down Suicune easily with Taunt. Hydreigon has to, however, scout for Ice Beam.

    **Opposing Calm Mind Sweepers**: Pokemon that are commonly seen using Calm Mind, such as Keldeo, Latias, Reuniclus, and Slowbro, can easily beat Suicune one-on-one if it's lacking Roar.

    **Phazers and Haze Users**: Pokemon with Roar, Haze, and Clear Smog can easily remove Suicune's Calm Mind boosts.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2017
    Klefkwi, Ark, Amaroq and 1 other person like this.
  2. Hogg

    Hogg You need to work on your brand.
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    I'm on mobile so I'll be brief: I know this is a WIP but Vincune should get an actual set, not just an OO mention.
    Ark, TSR and Highways like this.
  3. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    Okay. I added it in OO because I talked with dodmen yesterday and he said that it was OO, but I'll do a set for it.
    Ark, TSR and Hogg like this.
  4. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    Ready to QC! I wrote a lot on phone, so sorry for grammar mistakes and typos ;_;
    Ark likes this.
  5. Hogg

    Hogg You need to work on your brand.
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    MAJOR CHANGES

    I've discussed things with the rest of the QC team, and I think that there needs to be some major restructuring of this entry. Here is how we think it should break down:

    FIRST SET:

    name: RoarCune
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Calm Mind / Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers

    (Your CroCune EV spread is fine here.)

    SECOND SET:

    Vincune (see my notes to follow re: Vincune)

    THIRD SET:

    name: Offensive
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Scald
    move 3: Ice Beam / Signal Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Tailwind
    item: Leftovers / Waterium Z
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    ...then add a mention of CroCune in OO, but mention that without Roar it often loses 1v1 against a lot of powerful setup sweepers in the tier.

    Anyhow, on to the specific analysis...

    OVERVIEW
    • Split up the initial sentence into two: one sentence highlighting Suicune's incredible natural bulk + good defensive typing, and then a second bullet point talking about how its excellent bulk allows it to function as a powerful sweeper with Calm Mind.
    • I'd close with a sentence that the addition of Z-Moves to the game has given many wallbreakers that previous struggled to beat Suicune the tools necessary to beat it.
    CROCUNE
    • See above - please drop the CroCune set entirely in favor of RoarCune. CroCune gets a mention in OO instead.
    VINCUNE
    • Go ahead and rename the set to Calm Mind + Protect. You can call it Vincune parenthetically if you want.
    • For the main set, use the Timid spread after all (max HP, 216+ Speed, rest in SpD). While Mamo leaving the tier means that 286 Speed isn't quite as essential, the extra Speed lets you win 1v1 vs stuff like NP Togekiss (often a nightmare for bulkier teams), gives you insurance against Chandy, and lets you beat neutral natured base 90s like Adamant Luke. You can mention your alternate spread in set details.
    • That said... in your EV spread, you'll want the extra bulk to go in SpD, not Def. The reason is that you don't want your sub broken by things like Amoongus' Giga Drain after a boost (which requires at minimum 20 EVs). It also helps you deal with choice-locked Special Attackers like Prima better.
    • Mention that Protect and Substitute allow you to scout moves as well, and that Substitute protects you from critical hits.
    • In Usage Tips, mention that this is fantastic against stall and semi-stall in particular.
    • Mention that you need something to take strong physical attacks, since this Suicune variant isn't as physically bulky as other Suicunes.
    CHECKS & COUNTERS
    • Bulky Taunt users such as Mew and Hydreigon should be added, as they both beat almost every Suicune variant (although Hydra has to watch out for boosted CM from offensive Suicune).
    • Mention that CM sweepers like Latias and Keldeo beat non-Roar variants of Suicune.
    • Change the Mantine entry to Water-immune Pokemon, then list Mantine, Gastrodon and Volcanion (referencing that they all come in for free, and Mantine and Volcanion have access to Haze, while Gastrodon can Clear Smog away boosts or use Curse to beat Suicune).
    • Toxicroak might be worth a special mention, as it can switch in all day long and sets up on any non-Roar Suicune.
    This is a lot, so I'm going to hold off on giving my 1/3 until QC can review these changes.
    eht, BOUFF, dodmen and 3 others like this.
  6. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    Implemented everything from phone, PM me on discord if I missed anything. Also, I changed the name of the third set to "Offensive Calm Mind", is it OK with you?
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  7. Hogg

    Hogg You need to work on your brand.
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    ROARCUNE
    • "Rest gives Suicune a way of recovery and allows it avoid status, while Sleep Talk allows Suicune attack foes while asleep or setup Calm Mind against Clefable and Blissey." Get rid of the second half of this sentence; you'll explain Calm Mind/Sleep Talk in the next sentence.
    • Change the sentence about Calm Mind to say: "Calm Mind helps shore up Suicune's Special Defense and can make Suicune a potent sweeper in the lategame; however, without Sleep Talk, Suicune can be taken advantage of while resting."
    • Under usage tips, mention that Suicune should focus on using Scald and Roar early game to weaken its switch-ins. Calm Mind should be reserved for late-game, unless Suicune needs the Special Defense boost to help take on a strong Special Attacker such as Primarina.
    • In team options, start off by saying that Suicune works best on balanced or semi-stall teams as a check to setup sweepers and lategame win condition.
    • Roar Suicune beats Slowbro and Reuniclus pretty hard as-is, so mentioning that Scizor checks them is pretty redundant. I'd remove the reference to them.
    • Mention some specific Spikes setters that work well with Suicune (Klefki and Chesnaught, for example).
    • Mention that if Suicune lacks Sleep Talk, Heal Bell or Aroma support from the likes of Clefable or Blissey is appreciated.
    CALM MIND + PROTECT
    • Add on that Substitute protects Suicune from status as well in the moves section.
    • You don't really have to say "mainly poison and paralysis" when mentioning to avoid status - burns aren't as crippling as they once were but you'll kill yourself with Substitute damage if you get burned, so I think it's fair to just say to avoid status.
    OFFENSIVE CALM MIND
    • Add Empoleon to the list of things that HP Electric hits.
    • In set details, you can list an alternate spread of 200 HP/252+ SpA/56 Speed for TW variants, since it outpaces MAero under Tailwind and gives you better overall bulk.
    • Mention that with Waterium Z, you can punch past bulky threats like Clefable that otherwise might wall Suicune.
    • In team options, mention that strong wallbreakers such as Hydreigon and Taunt Gengar can break down bulky teams to help Suicune sweep.
    OTHER OPTIONS
    • Explain what CroCune is when you reference it.
    • Toxic can go in OO as a way for bulkier sets to hit Mantine, Gastrodon and Volcanion, but Suicune rarely has room to fit it in.
    • Offensive sets can run Extrasensory or Air Slash for Toxicroak, but both are mediocre options otherwise.
    • Rain Dance is an option on a set with Waterium Z, but offensive Suicune is not hard to wall with only two moves, and so this set is largely outclassed by stronger sweepers such as Keldeo.
    CHECKS & COUNTERS
    • "**Opposing Calm Mind Sweepers**: Pokémon that are commonly seen using Calm Mind, such as Keldeo, Latias, Reuniclus and Slowbro can easily 1v1 Suicune if it's lacking Suicune" - I think you mean Roar?
    • I'd re-order this section: Grass types -> Electric types -> Water-immune Pokemon -> Bulky Taunt users -> Setup sweepers -> Phazers.
    Implement these and you can have your 1/3!
    TSR, BOUFF, Ark and 1 other person like this.
  8. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    Implemented, ready to QC 2/3!
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  9. Ark

    Ark
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    I feel like this is gonna end up as more of a GP thing than actual QC, but here goes! I'll be going top-down as usual.

    "* As Suicune invites setup sweepers, such as Latias and Bisharp, Roar can avoid these before they setup, and then 1v1 them after it got some boosts."

    This sounds wonky, what does avoid them mean? What do you mean by "1v1 them after it got some boosts"? The boost part in itself should probably be explained inUsage Tips rather than the Moves section. Bisharp is also a bad example of a Pokemon that boosts on Suicune, as it fears Scald. I'd rephrase it something like:

    "As many setup sweepers, such as Latias and Reuniclus, will seek to set up on Suicune, Roar gives Suicune a tool to prevent such setup."

    Say that Rest allows Suicune to cure status, rather than avoid it. Getting hit by Toxic is still really annoying, as it will force you to Rest eventually, giving out some precious turns for free.

    Rather than saying that 56 speed EVs allow Suicune to outspeed standard Primarina, you should be saying Modest Primarina. If you say Standard, and the wonky max HP spread remains the most used one on Showdown, people will be confused otherwise. Also, I would like you to rephrase that last sentence. Rather than saying "pp wars", just say something along the lines of:

    "Pressure allows Suicune to PP stall many of the tier's staples, such as Clefable."

    In Usage tips, you mean taking advantage of Primarina and Gengar, not taking damage. Also, please do not say that it can find setup opportunities against basically every wall in the tier. Many Psychic-types, especially in last mon situations, handily beat Suicune. Rather, say that it can set up on many different walls, give examples, and make sure to mention that it cannot set up on some walls if they are the last remaining Pokemon on the opponent's side. Also, even though it can switch into Mega Aerodactyl and Krookodile, it hardly finds switch-in opportunities. It does not switch in there because it wants to, as it does not enjoy taking on Hone Claws Mega Aerodactyl or get its item Knocked Off by Krookodile; it switches in because it is required to check them. Please reword that sentence to reflect it can switch in, but should only do so if it is necessary.

    The last part of Team Options bothers me. Even with Sleep Talk, Suicune very much appreciates having a Cleric partner, and they are far and away the first thing I would add to a team featuring this variant of Suicune. Yes, Sleep Talk variants do not absolutely need a Cleric partner, but it is still appreciated, so Clerics should be the first mention in Team Options, and it should be made clear that they are a necessity when lacking Sleep Talk.

    For the Vincune set (rip, wish we could name it that), in Set Details, rephrase the Leftovers part. They aren't just the best pick as an item, they are mandatory for this set to function properly. They also do not "recover the Substitute damage"; this makes it sound as though its Substitute would be regaining HP, which is not true. Instead, try saying something such as:

    "Leftovers are mandatory, as their passive recovery allows for Suicune to stay healthy. They also allow for recovering off the health lost upon creating a Substitute."

    Pressure is also never KOing a Pokemon, so I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Just say that it helps Suicune in PP stalling Pokemon, as they will now lose 2 PP for any move that targets it as opposed to 1.

    When mentioning that Vincune needs Hazard Removal to support it, do not say it is "not bulky enough to take hits"; it is still bulky, and can still take hits even if it would prefer not to. It is also kind of irrelevant to the point, as its inability to repeatedly switch into strong wallbreakers is not why it needs Hazard Removal. Rather, say that this sets wishes to avoid switching into hazards, specifically Spikes, multiple times, as it lacks Rest and is as such far easier to wear down. I would also like to see you make a separate point for grounded Poison-types such as Amoonguss and Nidoqueen as partners, as they can absorb Toxic Spikes. This is far and away the most dangerous hazard for this set, so please make a separate point to address this.

    I don't think Roserade is the partner you should mention for Aromatherapy support, as that is more of a niche tech than one of the mon's main lures. Rather, mention something like Tsareena, which is more likely to run Aromatherapy in its last slot. Also, you should mention Wish support to heal Suicune up again. This is rather important, as it cannot heal itself up should it get worn down.

    "Using Bulky Pokemon that can take strong hits" is so vague and quite frankly, tells me nothing. What kind of hits am I looking to take? Which Pokemon do I need to well that I could check with other Suicune sets? Give some examples.

    Now, onto the last set...

    Calm Mind always has an offensive purpose, as it allows other variants of Suicune to wallbreak. However, I know what you are trying to express here, as on other sets, Calm Mind is also used to boost up its Special Defense and take hits better. Rephrase it to something like:

    "Calm Mind is mainly used to boost Suicune's Special Attack on this set, as its main purpose is to hit as hard as possible. The Special Defense boosts are still appreciated, though, as it allows Suicune to take some Special Attacks better."

    Mention that Signal Beam still maintains coverage for Grass-types, and still hits some relevant dragons such as Hydreigon and Latias.

    The phrasing on the Tailwind part is really awkward. Just say that it can be used as it allows Suicune to do better against offensive builds.

    When explaining what a Timid nature accomplishes, saying it can outspeed "neutral base 90 Pokemon" sounds weird. Just say that it can outspeed some Pokemon such as Adamant Lucario, which is also the only relevant case I can think of.

    In Set Details, mention that a Modest nature can be used to hit harder, but loses out on outspeeding several Pokemon such as Togekiss and Chandelure.

    State that Suicune can be used as an early game wallbreaker, as many common answers to Suicune such as Mantine and Celebi can be removed due to the element of surprise.

    Give examples of Pokemon that provide Spike support and work well with this set. Empoleon is hardly a counter to this set, even if it is a nuisance, so I would rather have it if you gave another example. Separate the Scizor and Krookodile part into Grass-type resists and Electric-type resists. Scizor does not take Electrics well, while Krookodile gets decimated by Grasses.

    Say that Crocune is defensive Calm Mind + Rest + Sleep Talk, rather than "Calm Mind + RestTalk". Also, calling it bait for setup sweepers is hardly true. Yes, Bisharp and especially Decidueye can set up on it. However, they would prefer to avoid it as they fear scaldburns. Instead, mention something like Celebi that just sits there and Nasty Plots on you.

    There is still a lot of GP stuff, and since there was so much QC stuff to do, I only fixed the worst offenders. Sorry to whoever GP checks this in advance.

    Please implement the changes I asked you to, and then let me look it over again.

    Edit: Now that that's done, qc 2/3.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
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  10. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    Implemented and talked w GC via PM. This is ready for QC 3/3! Hopefully I'm doing some grammar stuff before the last stamp has been given.
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  11. dodmen

    dodmen Ain't no tuition for havin' no ambition
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    Really good analysis man. Just some details that need to be fixed.

    Move Spikes to the first line of Team Options for Roar Suicune as this lets it do its job so much more effectively. Also mention Pokemon like Gengar and Bisharp that can prevent / punish removal from Tsareena, Tentacruel, and Latias who can clear hazards easily on Suicune. Also add partners that can deal with strong special attackers like Latias and Hydreigon that can beat Suicune before it uses CM.

    I believe you meant Timid in the Protect set, not Bold? In Usage Tips, rather than "frailer" in the first line, just say something like it should be played much more conservatively, since it really depends on having a high amount of HP to begin setting up. Also add that it needs to avoid having Leftovers removed at all costs, and that its team should try to remove opposing CMers like Raikou and Latias that can beat it 1v1.

    Offensive set and OO are great. I would like to see wallbreakers as a section in checks and counters. Things like SD Bisharp, SD Cobalion, Mega Sharpedo, Specs Keldeo, and CB Krook all pressure the hell out of it.

    QC 3/3 after this is implemented. Keep it up!
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  12. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    Implemented, did some grammar stuff with Eyan too, thanks! :D
    Ready for GP.
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  13. P Squared

    P Squared just enough to make me feel something
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    good writing, thanks for cleaning it up :)

    [​IMG]
    GP 1/1
    how to implement a GP check

    Show Hide

    [OVERVIEW]

    * Suicune is one of the sturdiest walls the tier has to offer thanks to its amazing natural bulk and really solid defensive typing.
    * Due to the qualities mentioned above, Suicune easily sets up Calm Mind against a large portion of the tier.
    * Its ability puts a huge amount of pressure on bulkier squads.
    * Suicune has a decent Speed stat, which means it outspeeds some tier staples with the correct EV spread.
    * It doesn't have a reliable form of recovery and unfortunately has to rely on Rest.
    * It's weak to Grass- and Electric-types, common types found on offensive builds.
    * The introduction of Z-Moves made it easier for certain wallbreakers, such as Cobalion, to get past Suicune.

    [SET]
    name: RoarCune
    move 1: Roar
    move 2: Scald
    move 3: Rest
    move 4: Calm Mind / Sleep Talk
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Bold
    evs: 252 HP / 56 Spe / 200 Def / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    * As many setup sweepers, such as Latias and Reuniclus, will seek to set up on Suicune, Roar gives Suicune a tool to prevent such setup.
    * Scald is its main STAB move, as it has a high chance to burn the few physical attackers that threaten Suicune.
    * Rest gives Suicune a form of recovery and allows it to cure status.
    * Calm Mind helps shore up Suicune's Special Defense and can make Suicune a potent sweeper in the late-game; however, without Sleep Talk, Suicune can be taken advantage of while resting.
    * Sleep Talk can be used instead Calm Mind if the team has solid wincons and is lacking a dedicated phazer.

    Set Details
    ========

    * Leftovers gives Suicune a form of passive recovery that increases its longevity.
    * The given EV spread with a Bold nature allows Suicune to outspeed Modest Primarina and uninvested Togekiss, while the rest of the EVs are invested in its HP and Defense to maximize its bulk.
    * Pressure allows Suicune to PP stall many of the tier's staples, such as Clefable.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    * Playing aggressively with Suicune during the early-game with Scald and Roar and then setting up Calm Mind in the late-game is strongly recommended, unless the Special Defense boosts are helpful for Suicune during the early- or mid-game, such as taking advantage from of (? not sure about this) Primarina and Gengar.
    * Suicune finds switch-in opportunities to switch in against passive Pokemon and has the needed bulk to check some physical attackers such as Krookodile and Mega Aerodactyl. It dislikes having its item knocked off, though, and Hone Claws variants of Mega Aerodactyl can still break through it.
    * Suicune finds opportunities to set up with Calm Mind against passive walls such as Blissey and Clefable. Some walls, such as Slowbro, can boost up alongside it and eventually beat it, though. Roar can usually deal with such Pokemon, but if they are the last remaining Pokemon, Suicune will lose.

    Team Options
    ========

    * Spikes setters, such as Klefki and Chesnaught, are always good partners to Roar sets, as opposing Pokemon are easily worn down by the layers of Spikes.
    * Cleric support from Pokemon such as Clefable and Blissey is appreciated, and it's mandatory if Suicune is lacking Sleep Talk.
    * Suicune is very appreciated on balance and semi-stall archetypes due to its phazing capabilities as well as the sweeping ability during the late-game.
    * Scizor has a good synergy with Suicune, as it resists Grass-types and takes hits from strong Psychic-types, such as Alakazam and Latias, while Suicune provides a check to Fire-types.
    * Ground-types such as Hippowdon and Krookodile are amazing teammates, (RC) because they are immune to Electric and provide Suicune with Stealth Rock support.
    * Strong wallbreakers such as Bisharp and Gengar punish Defoggers and spinners that can remove entry hazards on Suicune, such as Latias, Tsareena, and Starmie.
    * Pokemon, (RC) such as Clefable and Amoonguss, (RC) that can deal with strong special attackers are good teammates as well. (AP)
    * Grass-types, mainly Tsareena and Celebi, are solid partners, as they check Electric- and Grass-types really well while playing important roles on a team, such as removing entry hazards or setting them, respectively.
    * Suicune appreciates entry hazard removal a lot, as it doesn't have a reliable form of recovery. This means Tsareena, Starmie, Tentacruel, (AC) and Scizor are solid teammates.

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind + Protect
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Protect
    move 3: Substitute
    move 4: Scald
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 40 SpD / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    * Calm Mind gives Suicune a form way to boost its Special Attack and Special Defense, (AC) and even strong special attackers will struggle against Suicune if it sets up.
    * Protect is used to stall the PP of opposing Pokemon while restoring 6.25% of Suicune's health each turn, not to mention that it can be used to scout attacks.
    * Substitute can be used in conjunction with Calm Mind to make it harder for special attackers to break the Substitute. In addition, it allows Suicune to avoid status and provides insurance against possible critical hits, but its main role is to stall the PP of common Pokemon on stall builds, such as Amoonguss, Blissey, (AC) and Clefable.
    * Scald is Suicune's main form to deal damage to foes, as its Base Power is decent and burning its opponent target is always helpful.

    Set Details
    ========

    * Leftovers are is mandatory, as its passive recovery allows for Suicune to stay healthy. It also allows for recovering off the health lost upon creating a Substitute.
    * The given Speed EVs are used to outspeed maximum Speed Togekiss and base 70s Pokemon, such as Volcanion and Bisharp. Maximum HP investment gives Suicune 404 HP, (RC) so Substitute is never broken by a Seismic Toss. The rest of the EVs ensure Amoonguss is not breaking Suicune's Substitute at +1, not to mention it is easier to take hits from strong special attackers such as Primarina with it.
    * Pressure allows Suicune to wear down opposing bulkier Pokemon, such as Blissey and Quagsire, as the PP of these will be reduced by 2 instead of 1 if a move is targeting to Suicune.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    * This set must be played carefully, as it depends on having a huge amount of HP to begin setting up.
    * Avoid having Leftovers removed via Trick or Knock Off, as Suicune already heavily relies on it to recover its health.
    * Playing patiently against bulkier builds, mainly semi-stall and stall, is strongly recommended, as Suicune performs really well against these.
    * This set finds a lot of setup opportunities against passive Pokemon, such as non-Swords Dance Scizor, Blissey, (AC) and, (RC) Clefable.
    * Use Substitute to avoid status, as they it will eventually stop Suicune's opportunities to set up and sweep.

    Team Options
    ========

    * Entry hazard removal support from Pokemon such as Scizor, Tsareena, and Starmie is for sure one of the best forms of support to this set, since it hates switching in on Stealth Rock and Spikes repeatedly, especially because this set lacks Rest.
    * Cleric support from Togekiss and Tsareena is well appreciated, as this set is easily worn down by status.
    * Wish support from Pokemon such as Clefable and Blissey is helpful, (AC) since Suicune lacks a reliable form of recovery.
    * Wallbreakers that can remove Calm Mind attackers, namely Raikou and Latias, are appreciated, (AC) as Suicune can't beat those.
    * Ground- and Steel-types such as Hippowdon and Scizor support this set really well, as they easily tank Electric- and Grass-type attacks.
    * Hippowdon and Clefable, Pokemon that can take hits from strong wallbreakers, are good teammates as well, as this set is not specialized in taking strong hits from wallbreakers, unlike the former. (if "the former" is referring to the previous set, RoarCune, remove this)
    * Grounded Poison-types such as Amoonguss and Nidoqueen can absorb Toxic Spikes, a hazard that compromises Suicune's longevity.

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Scald
    move 3: Ice Beam / Signal Beam
    move 4: Hidden Power Electric / Tailwind
    item: Leftovers / Waterium Z
    ability: Pressure
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Moves
    ========

    * Calm Mind is mainly used to boost Suicune's Special Attack on this set, as its main purpose is to hit as hard as possible. The Special Defense boosts are still appreciated, though, as it they allows Suicune to take some special attacks better.
    * Hydro Pump is Suicune's main STAB attack due to its high Base Power, not to mention that it OHKOes some Pokemon at +1, such as Cobalion, Bisharp, and offensive Scizor.
    * Scald can be used over Hydro Pump as the STAB move, as trading a high Base Power for a move with a burn chance and perfect accuracy move is sometimes worth it.
    * Ice Beam hits Grass- and Dragon-types such as Tsareena and Latias really hard at +1.
    * Signal Beam, however, can be used instead of Ice Beam, as it hits Celebi harder while still hitting relevant Dragon-types such as Latias and Hydreigon.
    * Hidden Power Electric surprises Mantine, Empoleon, and Volcanion, which hard checks to Suicune.
    * Tailwind can be used instead of Hidden Power Electric, as it is a better option against offensive archetypes.

    Set Details
    ========

    * Leftovers gives Suicune a form of passive recovery, and based on that, certain opponents will assume that Suicune is running a defensive set.
    * Waterium Z can be used instead of Leftovers, as Suicune will take less damage from Knock Off and will hit Pokemon that would otherwise wall it, such as Clefable, harder, with an a one-time nuke.
    * The given EV spread with the Timid nature maximizes Suicune's Speed and Special Attack stats, which Suicune needs to outspeed Adamant Lucario while hitting as hard as possible.
    * A Modest nature can be used too, but then Suicune loses out on outspeeding some Pokemon, such as Chandelure and Togekiss.
    * An alternative spread of 200 HP / 252 SpA / 56 Spe with a Modest nature for Tailwind variants can be used, as it outspeeds Mega Aerodactyl under Tailwind and gives Suicune more bulk and power.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    * This set is a good mid- or late-game sweeper, as it isn't hard to overload its checks.
    * Using this set as an early-game wallbreaker is also recommended, as many answers to it, such as Mantine and Celebi, can be removed due to the element of surprise.
    * Bluffing defensive sets is strongly recommended, as opponents may use Pokemon such as Mantine to remove the Calm Mind boosts through Haze or Celebi to set up Nasty Plot, which Suicune can take advantage of to get a KO. (AP)
    * As Suicune is lacking bulk while using this set, switching it into strong attacks is suboptimal.

    Team Options
    ========

    * This set fits better on teams with Spikes support from Pokemon such as Klefki and Roserade, as Suicune appreciates the passive damage to more easily wallbreak.
    * Fighting-types can easily remove its counters, especially Blissey.
    * Pokemon that resist Grass, such as Scizor and Celebi, are great teammates as well.
    * Ground-types, such as Krookodile and Gliscor, help Suicune to take Electric-type attacks while it provides a check against Ice-types.
    * Strong wallbreakers such as Hydreigon and Gengar can wear down Suicune's checks easily.
    * Pursuit trappers, especially Mega Absol and Mega Aerodactyl, can trap Latias and Alakazam, Pokemon that can threaten Suicune if it didn't have the opportunity to set up Calm Mind.

    [STRATEGY COMMENTS]
    Other Options
    =============

    * Calm Mind alongside Rest and Sleep Talk is a solid option, but it is a bait for setup sweepers such as Celebi, (AC) as it lacks Roar.
    * Toxic can be used to surprise Pokemon such as Mantine, Gastrodon, and Volcanion, but Suicune rarely has room for it.
    * Suicune can run Extrasensory or Air Slash to hit Toxicroak, but its uses are pretty limited otherwise.
    * Rain Dance is an option on a set with Waterium Z, but offensive Suicune lacks coverage with only two attacking moves, and so this set is largely outclassed by stronger sweepers such as Keldeo.

    Checks and Counters
    ===================
    **Grass-types**: Grass-types such as Celebi and Decidueye threaten Suicune with their powerful STAB moves while taking little damage from Scald, but the latter hates being burned and both struggle against the offensive variant.

    **Electric-types**: Electric-types such as Raikou and Magneton can OHKO Suicune with their hard-hitting Electric-type STAB moves, but they hate being burned too.

    **Water-immune Pokemon**: Pokemon that are immune to Water, such as Mantine, Volcanion, Gastrodon, and Toxicroak, (AC) can wall Suicune perfectly. Mantine and Volcanion can carry Haze, Gastrodon can run Curse and defeat Suicune one-on-one 1v1, and Toxicroak easily sets up Swords Dance in front of Suicune.

    **Strong Wallbreakers**: Pokemon such as Choice Band Krookodile, Swords Dance Bisharp, (AC) and, (RC) Choice Specs Keldeo can take advantage of Suicune's lack of reliable recovery and easily wear it down.

    **Bulky Taunt Users**: Hydreigon and Mew can take hits from Suicune really well, as they have a reliable form of recovery, and proceed to wear down Suicune easily with Taunt. Hydreigon has to, however, scout for Ice Beam.

    **Opposing Calm Mind Sweepers**: Pokemon that are commonly seen using Calm Mind, such as Keldeo, Latias, Reuniclus, and Slowbro, (AC) can easily beat 1v1 Suicune one-on-one if it's lacking Roar.

    **Phazers and Haze Users**: Pokemon with Roar, Haze, and Clear Smog can easily remove Suicune's Calm Mind boosts.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  14. Highways

    Highways Sove Landslash
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    thanks for the check :D
    This is done!
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  15. Hogg

    Hogg You need to work on your brand.
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    Uploading.
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