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Summer Freedom V interest thread/tier discussion

Discussion in 'Tournaments' started by cook, Jun 23, 2007.

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  1. cook

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Feb 7, 2005
    this is a very tl;dr post by MY standards, so read it when you have time, not when you are on the go or at work.

    I received approval from both Nate and Groudon80 to host this tournament.

    As you may or may not know, for the past 4 years Nate/NNEM has hosted his Summer Freedom tournament at around this time (usually way earlier.) I would consider SF one of the more exciting tournaments that smogon hosts, since the flood of UU teams in netbattle is a big change from the standard overused teams. However, this year, Nate has not been very active, and has not mentioned anything about SF this year. So, i PMed him, and with his permission, I plan on hosting SF this year if there is enough interest. That being said, allow me to introduce SF!

    Summer Freedom Outline:
    -ADV generation, UU metagame, Single Battle mode
    -your team must consist of 5 UU or NU pokemon, and you MAY have 1 BL pokemon (NOT REQUIRED). No standard or Uber pokemon are allowed, you will be automatically DQed for attempting this.
    -PP Ups on
    -Sleep Clause on
    -Freeze Clause on
    -Battle Timeout on
    -Self-KO Clause on
    -No Evasion or OHKO

    This year, because it is almost July and SF normally starts in early late may early june, SF will be single elimination.

    Now that the rules are out of the way, the tiers can be discussed. Following SF tradition, I will use a set of tiers that are separate from smogon's tiers. last year's tiers were:

    [FONT=&quot]3. Venusaur – OU
    6. Charizard - OU
    51. Dugtrio - OU
    65. Alakazam - OU
    82. Magneton - OU
    85. Dodrio - OU
    94. Gengar - OU
    103. Exeggutor - OU
    105. Marowak - OU
    110. Weezing - OU
    112. Rhydon - OU
    113. Chansey - OU
    121. Starmie - OU
    124. Jynx - OU
    128. Tauros - OU
    130. Gyarados - OU
    134. Vaporeon - OU
    135. Jolteon - OU
    142. Aerodactyl - OU
    143. Snorlax - OU
    144. Articuno - OU
    145. Zapdos - OU
    146. Moltres - OU
    149. Dragonite - OU
    150. Mewtwo - OU
    151. Mew - OU
    196. Espeon - OU
    197. Umbreon - OU
    202. Wobbufet - OU
    205. Forretress - OU
    208. Steelix - OU
    214. Heracross - OU
    227. Skarmory - OU
    229. Houndoom - OU
    230. Kingdra - OU
    232. Donphan - OU
    235. Smeargle - OU
    241. Miltank - OU
    242. Blissey - OU
    243. Raikou - OU
    244. Entei - OU
    245. Suicune - OU
    248. Tyranitar - OU
    249. Lugia - OU
    250. Ho-oh - OU
    251. Celebi - OU
    254. Sceptile - OU
    257. Blaziken - OU
    260. Swampert - OU
    272. Ludicolo - OU
    282. Gardevoir - OU
    286. Breloom - OU
    289. Slaking - OU
    291. Ninjask - OU
    308. Medicham - OU
    330. Flygon - OU
    344. Claydol – OU
    350. Milotic – OU
    356. Dusclops - OU
    360. Wynaut - OU
    373. Salamence - OU
    376. Metagross - OU
    377. Regirock - OU
    378. Regice - OU
    379. Registeel - OU
    380. Latias - OU
    381. Latios - OU
    382. Kyogre - OU
    383. Groudon - OU
    384. Rayquaza - OU
    385. Jirachi - OU
    386. Deoxys - OU[/FONT]

    59. Arcanine - BL
    68. Machamp - BL
    80. Slowbro - BL
    91. Cloyster - BL
    97. Hypno – BL
    122. Mr. Mime - BL
    131. Lapras - BL
    157. Typhlosion - BL
    169. Crobat - BL
    189. Jumpluff - BL
    212. Scizor - BL
    217. Ursaring – BL
    233. Porygon2 - BL
    277. Swellow - BL
    335. Zangoose - BL
    346. Cradily - BL
    348. Armaldo - BL[/FONT]

    9. Blastoise - UU
    12. Butterfree - UU
    15. Beedrill - UU
    18. Pidgeot - UU
    20. Raticate - UU
    22. Fearow - UU
    24. Arbok - UU
    26. Raichu - UU
    28. Sandslash - UU
    31. Nidoqueen - UU
    34. Nidoking - UU
    36. Clefable - UU
    38. Ninetales - UU
    40. Wigglytuff - UU
    45. Vileplume - UU
    47. Parasect - UU
    49. Venomoth - UU
    53. Persian - UU
    55. Golduck - UU
    57. Primeape - UU
    62. Poliwrath - UU
    71. Victreebell - UU
    73. Tentacruel - UU
    76. Golem - UU
    78. Rapidash - UU
    83. Farfectch'd - UU
    87. Dewgong - UU
    89. Muk - UU
    99. Kingler - UU
    101. Electrode - UU
    106. Hitmonlee - UU
    107. Hitmonchan - UU
    108. Lickitung - UU
    114. Tangela - UU
    115. Kangaskhan - UU
    119. Seaking - UU
    123. Scyther - UU
    125. Electabuzz - UU
    126. Magmar - UU
    127. Pinsir - UU
    132. Ditto - UU
    136. Flareon - UU
    139. Omaster - UU
    141. Kabutops - UU
    154. Meganium - UU
    160. Feraligatr - UU
    162. Furret - UU
    164. Noctowl - UU
    166. Ledian - UU
    168. Ariados – UU

    [FONT=&quot]171. Lanturn - UU
    176. Togetic - UU
    178. Xatu - UU
    181. Ampharos - UU
    182. Bellossom - UU
    184. Azumarill - UU
    185. Sudowoodo- UU
    186. Politoed - UU
    190. Aipom - UU
    192. Sunflora - UU
    193. Yanma - UU
    195. Quagsire - UU
    198. Murkrow - UU
    199. Slowking - UU
    200. Misdreavus - UU
    201. Unown - UU
    203. Girafarig - UU
    206. Dunsparce - UU
    207. Gligar - UU
    209. Snubbull - UU
    210. Granbull - UU
    211. qwilfish - UU
    213. Shuckle - UU
    215. Sneasel - UU
    219. Magargo - UU
    221. Piloswine - UU
    222. Corsola - UU
    224. Octillery - UU
    225. Delibird - UU
    226. Mantine - UU
    234. Stantler - UU
    237. Hitmontop - UU
    262. Mightyena - UU
    264. Linoon - UU
    267. Beautifly - UU
    269. Dustox - UU
    275. Shiftry - UU
    279. Pelipper - UU
    284. Masquerain - UU
    292. Shedinja - UU
    295. Exploud - UU
    297. Hariyama - UU
    299. Nosepass - UU
    301. Delcatty - UU
    302. Sableye - UU
    303. Mawile - UU
    306. Aggron - UU
    310. Manectric - UU
    311. Plusle - UU
    312. Minum - UU
    313. Volbeat - UU
    314. Illumise - UU
    315. Roselia - UU
    317. Swalot - UU
    319. Sharpedo - UU
    321. Wailord - UU
    323. Camerupt - UU
    324. Torkoal - UU
    326. Grumpig - UU
    327. Spinda - UU
    332. Cacturne - UU
    334. Altaria - UU
    336. Seviper - UU
    337. Lunatone - UU
    338. Solrock - UU
    340. Whiscash - UU
    342. Crawdaunt - UU
    351. Castform - UU
    352. Kecleon - UU
    354. Banette - UU
    357. Tropius - UU
    358. Chimeco - UU
    359. Absol - UU
    362. Glalie - UU
    365. Walrein - UU
    367. Huntail - UU
    368. Gorebyss - UU
    369. Relicanth - UU
    370. Luvdisc - UU

    now, if you would like to see a pokemon moved from 1 tier to another, post about it, and if there is popular consent, there will be a vote.

    a major issue last year was NFE's or not fully evolved pokemon such as kadabra and pupitar and others. AT THE MOMENT they are all considered BL, unless they are specifically mentioned in the tier list (ie chansey is tagged as OU.)

    that's it for now, if i forgot something, please remind me or if you are a mod edit it into my post.

    I would like to note that if you intend on saying something stupid about how i am not competent enough to host a tournament, please shut the fuck up, save me time, and do not join. thank you.
  2. Judgement

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 24, 2006
    im definitely interested in this. if/when it starts, i would definitely join.
  3. Mizuno


    Dec 19, 2005
    Super interested, even though I'm sad it's not double elimination =(

    Tiers seem fine to me, MAYBE the only thing I would change is moving Machamp to OU and Hariyama to BL.
  4. Seafunks


    Mar 5, 2007
  5. goborage


    Jan 31, 2007
    I'm interested too but I'm not a huge fan of BLs being allowed.
  6. Pocket

    Pocket playing 100%
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 22, 2004
    1 BL has always been permitted in SF; it's what makes it more interesting =d

    I'm in =]
  7. Pillowrath


    Feb 4, 2006
    - I don't see the reason for Hypno being a BL, especially when the modern day UU metagame deals with Toxic quite often. Hypno is sort of the staple of UU. I suggest moving it to UU.

    - lol why is Cradily a BL? It's not that it does anything other than just stand there and stall...

    - Just wondering what tier would Vigoroth be in? Will it be in BL, like you said that all NFEs will be BL, except Chansey? What about Pikachu, Clamperl? I mentioned the pokemon that work in an entirely different way than their evolutions.

    And yeah I am interested to join as well.
  8. Siphai


    Mar 18, 2006
    I'm interested too. The tiers seem perfectly fine to me.
  9. Mekkah

    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    Mr. Mime can go to UU imo, it's so horribly fragile and I can't see Soundproof breaking the game or something, unless I missed a huge Baton Pass fad. I'm in favor of keeping Hypno in BL simply because he's such a stalling (BAN ME PLEASE) that turns the game into a Toxic fest. If you really want a Psychic Special wall that badly without wasting a BL spot I suggest you turn to Grumpig.

    I also heard Jackal propose a Walrein-to-BL argument a while ago that I can't see do much wrong either...except that he'd become completely obsolete as Lapras runs all over him and said Lapras is in BL too.

    I'm interested, but it better not take as long as this year. Double Elimination was a HUGE mistake though so this might have a shot.

    EDIT: I agree with Slobroking on Hariyama. Kangaskhan can be moved if you wish for more diversity, but you'll just find people shifting to Granbull for their UU Normal needs. Omastar seems to have some badass influence on the offensive and defensive side thanks to sky-high Special Attack and Spikes, definitely wouldn't mind him being moved. Feraligatr gets stopped so badly by Meganium though and his average speed tends to prevent him from sweeping without Salac Berry...
  10. Slobroking


    Dec 17, 2005

    omastar --> bl imo
    mr mime --> uu
    hypno --> uu imo
    feraligatr --> bl
    hariyama --> bl because machamp is bl
    kangaskhan --> bl

    My opinion, I'll join anyway regardless of the tiers =)
  11. Justice


    Nov 23, 2006
    should houndoom be a BL?
  12. Siphai


    Mar 18, 2006
    I agree with all of Slobroking's changes, except Hypno should probably be BL.
  13. Lexay

    Lexay I could be boned!
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 9, 2005
    it's not the same without nate >:-(
  14. Aeolus

    Aeolus Bag
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    Sep 12, 2005
    If this is going to be done it needs to be run with a great deal more efficiency than it has been in the past.
  15. Gmax

    Gmax kuahahahaha
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Oct 29, 2006
    Well, by Smogon's tiers, Dodrio and Jynx were BL. And Kangaskhan should definitely be BL. That kind of HP/Spd/Atk is very powerful. It is too powerful for the UU metagame. And Walrein's tankyness and lack of 4x weaknesses should make it BL.
  16. Unownasofyet


    Apr 14, 2007
    I'm very interested. I would say Charizard should be BL. It's to easy to kill in the OU environment once you see it. Swampert, sometimes T-Tar and Suicune pwn this. Kangaskan and Walreign should be BL.
  17. gene

    gene (* ̄(エ) ̄*)
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    May 1, 2005
    That has absolutely nothing to do with this. Charizard isn't horrible in OU and if he was, that doesn't make it a reason to move him down a tier in this case because this is a UU/BL tournament. Please don't use this logic.

    My proposed changes:

    Mr. Mime -> UU
    Cradily -> UU

    Omastar -> BL
    Hariyama -> BL

    Time to dig out my old SF team I guess!
  18. Kumar

    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 19, 2004
    Definitely interested.
  19. CaptKirby


    Nov 4, 2006
    I do not see the need for Kangaskhan or Omastar or Hypno to be BL. If you want these to be BL, you may as well make Vileplume a BL while you are at it. Cradily is pretty good, but I do not think it is particularly BL level either. I will join, of course!

    note: smogon tiers are down, of course, so I cannot reference them to know, but is Sableye really UU? I have seen some people (i.e. Sarenji) use it in OU, so just wondering.
  20. Flub


    Dec 23, 2004
    Omastar should stay in UU. It is nowhere near as good as BLs.


    And omastar's name is misspelled in that list
  21. Mekkah

    is a Super Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Feb 8, 2005
    I used Sableye in OU in the conviction that I was pushing my luck - it is sturdy enough to survive 3 hits so it can usually round the clock with Recover, but it is nowhere near the level of Gengar/Dusclops and in no way broken enough to make it above UU.

    Remember guys, the normal tier list for Smogon was based on "BL means too strong for UU". Some Pokemon are too strong to even be in BL/UU.
  22. Nate

    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Dec 20, 2004
    haha I completely agree aeolus. This is my official post of approval!

    Cook has always had more time on his hands than I have. The biggest issues last year were too many people and my being in China and not getting on peoples' asses enough. So a suggestion to cook: do not make it completely open signups. Put a cap on signups at 32 or max 64 people and only allow people you know and respect into the tournament.

    Double elimination IS feasible. It worked for the first three, but there were two many unknowns last year. That said, while double elimination is nice, I can't ever remember anybody winning from the losers bracket! Could be wrong though.

    Anyways, I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this.

    EDIT: cook you're probably right that timing will force this tourney to be sped up immensely. 32 people/single elimination with non-randoms would probably do it.
  23. husk

    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    Jan 9, 2005
    Obviously I'm looking for a repeat performance, but lets at least do 64 people, or maybe 32 double-elim.
  24. cook

    is a Past WCoP Champion

    Feb 7, 2005
    to Mekkah, Aeolus and Nate: i assure you i will do all in my power to keep this tournament on track. This summer i have a lot more free time then i did during the school year, and most of the week i'm home in the afternoon and late evening. The fact that this time around SF will be single elimination will help a lot, and i plan on making round lengths either 1 week or 10 days. this way we can get done in early august, before people leave for college/go to school. Personally, i feel that 32 is too small, 64 is good, but i was also looking at 96.

    so far, people have suggested the following changes in the tier list:
    Machamp to OU
    Hariyama to BL
    Hypno to UU
    Cradily to UU
    Mr. Mime to UU
    Walrein to BL
    Omastar to BL
    Feraligatr to BL
    Kanghaskhan to BL
    Charizard to BL
    Cloyster to UU (flub said this, blame him)
    Houndoom to BL

    i'm still unsure what to do with NFE's such as Vigoroth, pikachu, and clamperl. i'm not going to go through the entire list of NFE's and separate them, but if someone could post the usable NFE's in UU, I could tier those pokemon, which would help clear up any confusion. that would be a great help.
  25. gene

    gene (* ̄(エ) ̄*)
    is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL and WCoP Champion

    May 1, 2005
    Feraligatr to BL and Cloyster to UU lol

    ps definitely don't make this first come first serve. choose the 64 or 32 known people who sign up!
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