Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

Regarding Mega Camerupt's analysis:

"Nature Power is also an option that can potentially provide Mega Camerupt with access to Thunderbolt and Energy Ball, but this mandates teammates that can set up Terrains."

This is nitpicky at best, but I feel, while Tapu Fini isn't as common as Tapu Koko or Tapu Bulu, Moonblast should have a mention somewhere as well as it allows Camerupt to OHKO Banded Zygarde on the switch after one layer of Spikes, as well as murdering Garchomp and Latios after rocks.
 
In Tangrowths AV analysis, "However, a Relaxed nature still gives Tangrowth solid special bulk while allowing it to better take hits from physical attackers such as Zygarde and Garchomp." I think this mixed spread should be expanded upon. Tapu Bulu, now Jolly is popular, and M.Swampert should be added to the physical attackers, as +2 Z Wood Hammer has around 10% chance to Ohko and M.Swampys ada ice punch has around a 1% chance to 2hko after rocks. Also I think it should be mentioned that Ash Gren then 2hkoes after rocks with the spread.

16 defence seems to be a good jump point, halving a lot of the chances from 0 investment while M.Swampy ada Ice Punch is a garunteed 3hko after rocks. I think this spread should be expanded upon as its an extremely splash-able check to rain teams and Bulu check.

Tapu Bulu Calcs

+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 340-401 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Tangrowth: 306-361 (75.7 - 89.3%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth in Grassy Terrain: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Bloom Doom (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Tangrowth in Grassy Terrain: 344-405 (85.1 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Swampert Calcs

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Tangrowth: 148-176 (36.6 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Greninja Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- 33.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO

Ive been using this spread on rain weak teams and it increases the match up really nicely. The loss of spdef is noticeable though. But I dont know if this has already been considered to be expanded on, or there are other reasons that it wont be, but what ever happens, as long as i got my point across clearly:)
 
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Was searching for something last night, noticed some small suboptimal spreads etc., here's the list:

1) Celesteela:

124 SPD on the mixed set Looks like a randomly picked number. It was mentioned to "guarantee that specs lele Fails to 2hko with hp fire and psychic", but without rocks up, even 92 SPD would be enough to avoid the 2hko from both moves, and WITH rocks up, it only guarantees that psychic doesn't 2hko.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela: 172-204 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 124 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 145-171 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Celesteela: 178-210 (44.7 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Celesteela in Psychic Terrain: 149-176 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


I suggest either updating the description by including rocks/knocked off Lefties, etc., or the SPD value. In Addition, None of the other Special attackers mentioned in the Analysis require 124 SPD to avoid 2hkos without rocks either.

2) Mega Charizard Y:

Small one: Could potentially mention NJNPs spread that avoids the 1hko from Mag's TBolt, although that's really niche, so meh

3) Mew:

After you switched to the 112 Timid spread for Zyg etc., you changed the 240 HP EVs to 252, which slightly bolsters it's mixed walling capabilities, so it's "fine", but with this spread your mainly targeting physical attackers like Zygarde, Lando, so sticking to the 240 HP of the old spread (for lefties) and putting the remaining 12 EVs into Defense, raising it to 156 is better.

4) Tangrowth:

Might want to add the mixed set that was used a lot in WCOP. With Giga, Leech, HP Ice and Sludge Bomb. Don't know the exact spread that was used by People, but should be something like 252hp, 60 def, 200spd relaxed.

Also Change the AV spread to include 28 def EVs so it lives +1 Z-Drake from Zygarde

5) Clefable:

Really small nitpick for the Unaware set, 252 and 248 HP EVs take the same hazard damage, and since it's almost exclusively a physical wall, 252 over 248 will improve it's defenses there.

6) Mantine:

Optimized spread updated for new threats/sets like Specs Pelipper, M-Camerupt, etc. is 252HP/132Def/124SpD Calm Lefties. Avoids 2hkos from Things like Hurricane and Rock Slide of the mentioned Mons without Rocks, also still tanks stuff like Kingdra Dracos, Char-Y, Volc, M-Zam, etc.pp., basically everything bar Lele and Electrics :P

7) Mega Sableye:

Still Shows the mixed spread, optimal nowadays if you still want to use MSab would be to run max SPD to avoid 2HKOs from Prot Ninja and prevent it from Spiking/TSpiking, since it can beat all other Hazard Removal. 248HP/8Def/252SpD Careful, same moveset.

8) Ditto:

Another really small nitpick: Mention that since Transform is it's only move, Showdown will automatically set ist Atk IVs to 0, resulting in a different Hidden Power than Ice, so you have to manually Change them back to 31. Also for more Struggle damage in Mirrors

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All of those are for SM OU obviously
 
For SD Tapu Bulu I personally feel that Fightinium Z with Superpower should be slashed as the item rather than just mentioned in set details. It lets you OHKO Mega Scizor, Celesteela and Skarmory at +2 (latter needs some prior damage), which could otherwise stop you cold. It also lets you lure in those Pokemon so that something that appreciates having them gone, like say Mega Diancie, can sweep later on. Personally I don't feel Bloom Doom is worth it - Horn Leech still 2HKOes Unaware Clefable after Stealth Rock.

+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 258-304 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 402-473 (101 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Tapu Bulu All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Scizor-Mega: 261-308 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery
 

Colonel M

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Most Bulu's run Jolly, so it's fair to say that those calcs are pretty uh... nah.

RE: Sart's - I'll look at these since some of them I definitely agree with, though some like the Ditto situation I can just do a forced IV instead for HP Ice since it's fixed on the Dex. Ill look over and let you know which ones I added and didn't add.
 

S. Court

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Maybe it's too soon considering Mega Latias analysis is not uploaded, but I'd like to point something in Magearna analysis, to be specific in OO section: Icium Z can also in Shift Gear set to heavily weaken Mega Latias

I'm saying Shift Gear set because this one doesn't use Fleur Cannon, and Reflect Type set can check this set iirc

Could it be considered add Mega Latias in the possible targets for Icium Z?
 
The cofag analysis slashes wOw before HP fight. Being hard stopped by ttar is not good, and OHKOing bish at +0 and ninja +2 is very good. I can't see any reason why w0w should be suggested over HP fight, because these are relatively common matchups (if you're opponent doesn't have a chansey and does have a dark type, they're probly switching in the dark type when they see u NP).
The main thing is cofag cannot function as both a Mega-fighting type check and a sweeper in one set. If anything, w0w could be broken out into a support set if needed, but I think the OTR set shouldn't be trying so much. Mummy is enough of a deterrent to these mons switching in in the first place.
 

Martin

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Now that everyone runs jolly Bulu I think that a faster Rachi spread allows it to function a bit better; not being able to use Iron Head before it can move really blows in a 1v1 scenario, especially considering Jirachi's ability to soft check Tapu Bulu (that and +2 Bloom Doom sends Rachi to the shadow realm of you don't Bulu first to fish for a flinch) and just generally I don't fund the old benchmark to be all that useful anymore, what with Jolly TTar not existing, everyone running jolly Bulu, Bisharp usage sorta dwindling compared to a few months back etc. I personally think that that either 248 HP / 108 SpD / 152 Spe Careful (outruns jolly Bulu) or 248 HP / 88 SpD / 172 Spe Careful (outruns Timid Tran to ensure you get off Healing Wish before it can hit Jirachi with Magma Storm) is more effective in the current meta than the current 56 Careful spread that's listed. Thoughts?
 

Gary

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The cofag analysis slashes wOw before HP fight. Being hard stopped by ttar is not good, and OHKOing bish at +0 and ninja +2 is very good. I can't see any reason why w0w should be suggested over HP fight, because these are relatively common matchups (if you're opponent doesn't have a chansey and does have a dark type, they're probly switching in the dark type when they see u NP).
The main thing is cofag cannot function as both a Mega-fighting type check and a sweeper in one set. If anything, w0w could be broken out into a support set if needed, but I think the OTR set shouldn't be trying so much. Mummy is enough of a deterrent to these mons switching in in the first place.
I put in a change for HP Fighting being slashed first, because I 100% agree with you.
 

Colonel M

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I put in a change for HP Fighting being slashed first, because I 100% agree with you.
Rejected because I 100% disagree with you.

(Change made).

Ill also try to dedicate a day this week and next week to weed out some other inconsistencies and Sart's changes suggested.
 
The Zygarde Analysis for the DD+Sub set mentions that the Speed EVs (116 Jolly) are used to outspeed Timid Heatran, but they leave Zyg at 280 Speed while Timid Tran sits at 278. Not a big difference, but saves 4 EVs to be put anywhere else. Also doesn't make a difference after a DD (you end up at 420 or 418 Speed respectively, but the only mon sitting in this Tier is Omastar, which... well, isn't a Thing in OU)
 

Gary

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Keep in mind that we encourage all badgeholders to help us remove Dugtrio mentions from all the OU analysis. To do this, go to any Pokemon on the Pokedex with an OU analysis, and press "Edit Strategy", which will allow you to edit the analysis itself and submit a change, which one of us Site Staff members can merge. This will really help us get this shit done at a much more timely fashion, because there are quite a lot of Dugtrio mentions in all our analysis. Thanks!

http://www.smogon.com/cms/
 
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I was looking at Mega Gardevoir's analysis and noticed something a little weird in the "Team Options" section.

"Pokemon that can lure in or weaken Steel-types such as Magearna, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn are necessary."

It seems strange that an analysis about a Mega has another Mega in its suggested team options.
 

lotiasite

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I was looking at Mega Gardevoir's analysis and noticed something a little weird in the "Team Options" section.

"Pokemon that can lure in or weaken Steel-types such as Magearna, Mega Scizor, and Ferrothorn are necessary."

It seems strange that an analysis about a Mega has another Mega in its suggested team options.
mega scizor isn't actually the teammate in this situation. rather, it's one of the "steel-types" that are lured in; i.e it's on the opposing team and not mega gardevoir's team.
 

S. Court

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I think Kartana other options section needs a change. It mentions Steelium Z to damage Mega Venusaur and Amoongus when Darkium Z already does that. and it mentions Grassium Z as a way to knock Alolan Marowak and Zapdos, but again, Night Slash and Darkium Z can cover this.

Maybe adding another reasons why thos Z-Move slots can be used?
 

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