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Sun Offense

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by locoghoul, Nov 12, 2011.

  1. locoghoul

    locoghoul

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Messages:
    807
    HERE COMES THE SUN


    Hi guys, as I've said it before, I dislike the rain based metagame. I wouldn't mind seeing Kyogre on every team (I actually like Kyogre a lot) but the same FerroOgreScarfkia core (throw in some Tentacruel, Chansey and Gira-A/O) gets extremely boring.

    I initially tried to counter it with Gastrodon, Xatu (direct counters to FerroOgre) and Deoxys-A (takes care of blobs and other support pokes) with good success (I posted two warstories on it). The problem was it only did just ok against other teams (HO was tough to beat) and my team itself was kinda stallish (style I don't like that much).

    So, I tried to come up with a more offensive team that could hold its own against most rain teams. Of course, if I'm battling rain mostly, I had to deny their weather with a weather of my own so I went with sun. Now, I'm not very good at HO but my style is more of a balanced offense.

    Thought process

    [​IMG]

    Groudon was the first choice of course because of the permanent sun. It also gives some nice cushion for physical attacks directed to other teammates. I definitely wanted to have Deoxys-A as I think it is a very underrated pokemon and fits into an offensive theme.

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    With an all-out attacker I felt that I needed a more balanced, yet also powerful offensive pokemon. Since I was making a sun team, I thought Ho-Oh could work.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Obviously, if you are planning to use Ho-Oh effectively then you should be able to control hazards as well. The question was if I needed a spinner or Xatu. Xatu works fine most of the time but I wanted some hazards of my own as well so I went with Forretress because Volt Switch helps me to keep on the offensive.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Of course, if the initial plan is to counter rain teams then I should have a Kyogre check/counter, right? Some ideas came to mind: Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, Grass Arceus, Palkia, Ludicolo and even Calm Latias. Gastrodon worked perfect in my previous team but not only is a free Ferrotroll switch, it doesn't add anything to my team in terms of offense, it would just be a safe switch in against Kyogre and I'm looking more how to threaten it as well. Ludicolo is pretty annoying but not as effective anymore because, again, it gives Ferrotroll a free switch (immune to Leech Seed) and is also kinda deadweight. A Ferrothorn of my own or a Grass Arceus would give me a bit of a Fire weakness since Ho-Oh can't be switched that often if SR are still up. Scarf Reshiram would 6-0 my team just by spamming Blue Flare. I went with Palkia because it adds another offensive component to the team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    OK, so Kyogre is checked now. The other threat you always see lately is Mewtwo. I know Deoxys-A can revenge kill if Mewtwo is around 60% but I sure don't have a counter (is there even one?). I went with Jirachi as it resists most of his common movesets (obviously not if it carries Fire Blast).

    So here is my final team:

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    Team Review

    [​IMG]

    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drought
    Nature: Impish (+ Def, - SpAtk)
    252 Hp / 160 Def / 88 SpDef / 8 Spe

    Roar
    Earthquake
    Dragon Claw
    Thunder Wave

    My usual lead with some SpDef EVs to survive an Ice Beam 2HKO from certain pokes. Enough defensive EVs to not be 2HKOed by +2 Arceus Extreme Speed. Thunder Wave to spread paralysis so that Deoxys-A can have an easier time sweeping. It also helps Ho-Oh against certain threats. Roar instead of Dragon Tail because I found that missing with Dragon Tail can be critical and because it doesn't help if someone is behind a Sub.
    [​IMG]

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    Nature: Relaxed (+ Def, -Spe)
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpDef

    Spikes
    Rapid Spin
    Volt Switch
    Stealth Rock

    My spinner and hazard abuser. I know is hard to spin nowadays but most Gira-Os and even Ghost Arceus don't have a fire move but WoW. This allows me to SR from the beginning and then stack Spikes as they WoW me and phaze me away. My policy is: if I can't spin your SR, then I'll have the advantage with SR and 2 layers of Spikes. Volt Switch is when I predict Kyogres, spinners or I already have the hazard advantage. Relaxed instead of Careful because Jirachi is already meant at taking special hits.


    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Nature: Careful (+SpDef, -SpAtk)
    252 HP / 248 SpDef / 8 Spe

    Wish
    U-Turn
    Body Slam
    Fire Punch

    Almost standard Wish passer. Jirachi helps a lot with Mewtwo and the -somewhat more common- Deoxys-A. Body Slam allows me to paralyze those Kyogre on the switch. Having 2-3 pokes on their paralyzed is key later in the game as it turns a Deoxys-A revenge kill into a mini-sweep. U-Turn is great for giving safe Wishes to my teammates. I usually aim to Wish Groudon since he doesn't have any recovery and Palkia as SpecsOgre can do around 40-45%. Fire Punch is just filler and gives me a sun boosted attacking move if needed. I was thinking of switching it for Zen Headbutt as Iron Head has horrible coverage against most of the teams I'm facing.


    [​IMG]

    Palkia @ Wide Lens
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    252 SpAtk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe

    Thunder
    Fire Blast
    Earth Power
    Spacial Rend

    Who needs Scarf Palkia? Really, Palkia in the sun is awesome but only if you are able to use its great coverage. No Water move because the main switch in, Ferrotroll, laughs at it. Thunder for Kyogre, Fire Blast for steels, specially Ferrothorn and Earth Power for the rare Jirachis and Heatrans. Now, I know what you are thinking: why on earth Wide Lens?? I'm choosing more power for Fire Blast because once Kyogre is forced out and Ferrothorn switches in, Fire Blast is gonna hit harder than Flamethrower. That is, of course, if it hits. Wide Lens gives me more precious accuracy so that Spacial Rend becomes a 99% accuracy move and Fire Blast is now 94% which is very reliable. No Life Orb as it would give away that I'm not choiced. I use to run Stone Edge with Hasty for Ho-Oh but he is so rare nowadays that I changed it to Timid and Earth Power. Aura Sphere could work too but I like Fire Blast in the sun more. I'm considering Expert Belt too, but really you can't afford to miss with Palkia. A single Spacial Rend missed is gg to Palkia and missing Fire Blast against Ferrothorn on the switch is pretty sad too as an early dent on him maims the whole rain stall core. Anyways, regardless of the item you choose, I would encourage you to use non-Scarf Palkia and see for yourself how awesome it is.


    [​IMG]

    Ho-Oh @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpAtk)
    240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe

    Roost
    Substitute
    Brave Bird
    Sacred Fire

    The Immortal Phoenix. SubRoost is very hard to deal if you don't have Roar. Most Dragon Tail users are weak and have no Atk investment. Sun boosted Sacred Fire dents a lot of pokemon who doesn't resist it. Brave Bird gets the clean OHKO against ScarfOgre with SR up and has a good chance at 2HKOing bulkier versions with SR. 16 Spe so I can outspeed most support 90 base speed pokemons like Dialga, Groudon or bulky Kyogres. Not much to say, I try to switch Ho-Oh against Giratina-A/O since they can't WoW nor phaze him behind a sub. Brave Bird 3HKOs Gira-A, so if he uses Rest he won't be able to stop Ho-Oh.


    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-A @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Mild (+SpAtk, -Def)
    20 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 236 Spe

    Low Kick
    Ice Beam
    Psyshock
    Extreme Speed

    The alien pokemon has found a spot on almost all of my teams. It saddens me that some people still use him as sash lead. 395 speed allows me to outspeed Timid Mewtwo who is the fastest non-scarf pokemon bar other Deoxys formes and Ninjask (lol). My moveset looks a lot like Mewtwo's standard set: Ice Beam, STAB move that hits defense and Fighting attack. I don't like the stat drops that Psycho Boost and Superpower have. The way I play this team is to spread paralysis so that my Deoxys-A will take advantage of it and kill at least 2 pokemon. Scarfers are dealt by switching and letting them rack up hazards damage to the point a Extremespeed from Deoxys-A can take them out. I've played this team for more than 2 months now, and I can tell you that many of them ended with a mini sweep that could have not been achieved if I had a -2 SpAtk drop. The only things that aren't hit as hard by Low Kick (as compared to Superpower) are the blobs but you 2HKO them with Psyshock anyways. With this moveset I can not be pivoted out (like switch Chansey to take Psycho Boost then switch to physical wall to absorb the Superpower) unless they switch into Gira-O when I Low Kick but that could happen with Superpower as well and most of the times I use Psyshock anyways. Espeed does around 25-30% to Extremekiller if Groudon fails to stop him.


    REPLAYS



    I'd appreciate any constructive criticism. If you want to discuss Deoxys-A moveset just drop a VM/PM. If you see any immediate threat to this team that I haven't thought of let me know. Volt Switch and U-turn helps a lot against stall. And, believe it or not, I've been able to Rapid Spin in quite a few matches, so it's not totally impossible.
  2. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

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    Messages:
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    Nice team. It looks pretty solid to me, but i see a few things i'd change if it was my team.
    What does your Groudon lead accomplish vs other Groudon leads/slower leads with stealth rock? My Groudon lead would take like 30% damage from Earthquake and set up rocks on you. I'd put rocks on Groudon somewhere, maybe by condensing dragon claw and roar into dragon tail to free up a slot.
    I see a Kyogore weakness, I don't think Palkia can handle switching into it more than once. In team preview it'd be easy to recognise that Palkia is your only way to deal with Kyogore. I think the item on your Palkia leaves a lot to be desired, and there is a reason most Palkias are scarfed. Scarf Kyogore also outspeeds Deoxys-A, who is OHKO'd by most attacks in ubers. Your Jirachi can't touch Groudon or Chansey/Blissey, which would be the two most common switch-ins against it.
    I don't see Jirachi as adding much, Chansey/Blissey wish pass twice as much hp, and only a noob fool would allow more than 1 of his pokemon to get paralysed by the same trick. I'd think about replacing Jirachi with a scarf Reshiram that can outspeed and OHKO Mewtwo/Deoxys-A
  3. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    Against Groudon leads I lead with Foretress or Ho-Oh. Groudon only leads when Kyogre is their lead so I know which set is it: if rain is up it means is slower than Groudon (CM or bulky set), if sun gets up it means is an offensive variant (either Scarf or Specs).

    I don't like the blobs and they contribute even less to an offensive team. Read U-Turn. Seriously. Hazards + U-turn and forced out because of what I bring is more than enough. Something Blissey/Chansey can't do. Wish + slow U-turn is better than just Wish anyway. Sure ScarfReshiram can revenge kill Mewtwo, but what do I switch into him? Do I sac every time Mewtwo/Deo-A is on the field?
  4. DFrog

    DFrog

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    Just a small thing on your Ho-Oh set if you swap out roost for recover you can use Ho-Oh dream world ability regenerator, gaining more health on the switch out seems vital for Ho-Oh regardless if rocks are on the field or not. I don't play a lot of Uber's but this seems a common trend in every metagame, Stealth Rock is a must! If you decide to fit it in on the Groudon set swap Dragon Claw for Dragon Tail, I acknowledge why you don't have Dragon Tail already by it offers the same coverage and a phaser in one move. Then swap roar of Stealth Rock, which is obvious in itself. GL with the team.
  5. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

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    How do you know Groudon will lead? Leading with Ho-Oh is risky, and what if the Groudon knows a fire move to deal with the ever increasing use of Forretress as a lead?
    What do you do against 0 spe Kyogore leads? They get the weather up and shave nearly 50% off your Palkia.
    Extreme-killer Arceus (very common) does not fear thunder wave and all your Groudon can do is phaze it out. Extreme-killer Arceus is not worried by any other pokemon on your team.
    Scarf Ho-oh checks Mewtwo, I dunno I just think you may as well sac than run that Jirachi in your team.
    Substitute/nasty plot Darkrai can 6-0 this team if it has a sub up when Deoxys attempts to check it.
    Don't replace firepunch on Jirachi, as that just makes it set-up fodder for Forry and Ferro.
  6. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

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    Regenerator Ho-Oh isn't released, so he'd have to play this team in the dreamworld if he used that ability. Oh and he'd have to hack :)
  7. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    Apr 29, 2008
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    Please, check some replays before "tutoring" me into lead discussion.

    If it has 0 Spe IVs is not Specs then as most run some Spe IVs. Bulky/CM Kyogres don't do 50% to Palkia. There is this move called Wish too.

    Earthquake does 32-36%. Depending on how much hazards damage it has taken I EQ twice or phaze. Deoxys-A can finish him off if around 30% or less. And yeah, I think I've also noticed Extremekiller Arceus in the ladder as well. I haven't been swept by a single one yet.

    I don't think I can take you seriously now.

    Darkrai can be a problem if used as midgame pokemon yes. U-Turn into Deoxys-A is usually my plan if SR is up, otherwise Ho-Oh can check it too.
  8. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

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    I run a 0 spe specs Kyogore lead. It is a standard set on the smogon site too.
    Say Arceus swaps into Jirachi and gets up a sword dance as you switch to Groudon. Most Extreme killers run lefties these days, and most top players ev their extreme killer Arceus with a few less attack evs and some in defense. If Groudons Earthquake is a 3HKO it is bye bye team.

    I just pokesaved up your team and battled myself several times with my two ds systems, and I was impressed overall with your team. Firepunch on Jirachi was a bitch to deal with - it ensured my team had no easy way to set up entry hazards.
    I tried to be objective and play like i didn't know what the other players move was going to be, but I know it wouldn't be perfect. Nonetheless, your team beat mine 2-1 :) But my team does not include extreme killer Arceus or Darkrai.
  9. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    Well, I never said my team was perfect. For example, I'm not super happy with Dragon Claw on Groudon. I feel his movepool is not as good, but I really want Twave on him, although Toxic could work better I dunno. I just tried to antimetagame using Deoxys-A.

    I'm flattered that you took time to test my team against yours even though I don't know it. I may sound a little harsh sometimes but I do appreciate your comments. Any advice on this team?
  10. Lickitungyourmom

    Lickitungyourmom

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    I found that Ho-oh was really good, even when stealth rock was down. The synergy with wish and Ho-oh was nice too. I think now that if you had to replace a member, it would be Forretress, I feel like I have to include Forry on my teams that have Ho-oh too, but maybe this isn't the case.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    I really enjoyed the rmt and especially the replays. I can see why you enjoy Psyshock > Psycho Boost, although the sheer power of Psycho Boost is something to consider (the 2nd Psycho Boost (70 BP) virtually hits as hard as Psyshock). Also loved the Jirachi in action.

    I think Palkia's set can be improved a bit. Earth Power does have its uses, dealing with Jirachi in Rain, as well as Tentacruel and Dialga. However, it gets walled by Chansey. I think you should consider Outrage, Dragon Tail, Roar, or Focus Punch over Earth Power. Any of these moves can severely dent Chansey with raw power or entry hazard damages. Thanks to SR + Spikes support as well as Chansey investing more heavily in Special Defense, you don't even need to invest in Atk to accomplish this. If you go with Outrage or Dragon Tail, I suggest giving it Lustrous Orb to provide a 20% boost to your Special and Physical dragon moves. If you go with Focus Punch, I suggest giving it Expert Belt for the extra oomph. If you go with Roar, then I suggest giving it Leftovers, since Palkia does have usable bulk that can be enhanced by Leftovers. These moves have utility outside of beating Chansey.

    Again, GJ with the team, locoghoul.
  12. locoghoul

    locoghoul

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    ^ Thanks. Yeah, I think I've only used Earth Power twice (although it OHKOd the only Heatran I've faced) but I don't expect Palkia to deal with Blobsey anyway. I usually switch to Forrey when they bring them. I'd considered Lustrous if I had the water STAB. And I need to test Expert Belt Palkia although I dislike misses.
  13. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    Yo, 0 Atk Lustrous Orb Hasty Palkia does 37-44% to 4 HP / 252 Def Bold Chansey! That's practically a 2HKO with a layer of Spikes + SR. I definitely advise trying out Hasty Palkia @ Lustrous Orb with Outrage before knocking it down!! Spacial Rend + Outrage are enough moves to consider Lustrous Orb.

    I mean your team isn't awfully weak to Chansey, but I did see in your replay that you often pitted your Deoxys-A against the opponent's Chansey. Such occurrence would reduce drastically if you make this small change.
  14. Banedon

    Banedon

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    So I had the fortune (or misfortune) to play against your team on ladder not so long ago, and I must say the biggest weakness is the severe lack of Water resists on your team. You've got one Water resist with no recovery barring Wish from Jirachi. In my game vs. you, the moment I used Thunder with my Scarf Kyogre and caught you switching in Palkia, it was game over. You did still switch around sacrificing Pokemon to get Groudon and the sun in, but I had a serious (and game-winning) advantage.

    I suggest you drop Deoxys-A for a second Water resist. You've got a lot of options. I've been using Dragon Arceus to fine effect, you can give Grass Arceus a try as well. You can switch them in to take Water Spout and then go to Palkia if you realize it's Specs. Otherwise you can try Latias or maybe even Giratina-O if you want to keep priority on your team. Giratina-O would also give you a spinblocker to save your Forretress's hazards. With both Forretress and Jirachi, the extra Dragon weakness should be easily handled. If you REALLY want to keep Deoxys-A, you could try dropping Jirachi, but I suspect that will open more holes in your team than otherwise.

    Otherwise I also suggest Leftovers instead of Life Orb on Ho-oh, because you have Substitute, and Hydro Pump instead of Earth Power on Palkia to take advantage of any opposing Kyogre (or simply if you're leading and sun isn't up).

    gl!

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