Postgame Sunday Mafia - Postgame

#1
Sunday Mafia - Postgame
Yep.

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Scum Quicktopic | Graveyard Quicktopic

Hosting Notes:

The premise behind this game's setup was to leave more room for scumhunting and manip compared to last game, in which the scumteam ended up dead via process of elimination. Backing this up, I had faith that the playerlist would deliver. The original town setup had a lover mason pair that was to be protected through meatshield von. Then there were the two other roles to keep things fresh and lively. In general one thing I wanted to make sure was that things wouldn't get boring; posting restrictions were here for that reason. It's unfortunate that the game slowed down during D2 regardless. Not to get off-topic, the mafia setup was, in my opinion, just as strong as the town equivalent - by that I mean it was relatively powerless (Janitor and Activator awarding good play, useless otherwise) with a negative role in the Beloved Princess. Having two 'negative' factors in each faction worked out; if one of the roles got lynched, the game would have even-numbered player amount until the other got lynched as well. If both of them survived till LYLO, though, the plan was to cancel them out to prevent an insta-win for scum.

Speaking of the lover masons, let's cover hosting decisions. The first is the big one - some of you already guessed it, but here it is for those of you still in the dark:

Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Itchni! You are Positive Pedro, Town Lover Mason.

You are a very positive person! You know this conflict is nothing but some good fun. The idea of having to brutally jump someone doesn't appeal to you, though. You'd rather think that players go to Funland Amusement Park when they're lynched, where trees are made of licorice and rides have no lines. Your posts should reflect that to some degree. In addition, Negative Nadia, your soulmate, will be with you in this conflict. You complete eachother in such a way that it will be impossible for the other to go on if one of you gets removed from the game. You are also confirmed town to eachother. She is Aura Guardian, and you may converse at any time in this quicktopic while you are alive.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.

Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Aura Guardian! You are Negative Nadia, Town Lover Mason.

This is all a huge hassle, isn't it? Why put trust in a group of people that are as informed as sheep? You'll be hoping for this display to end as soon as possible. At the very least, you're not alone. Positive Pedro, your soulmate, will be with you in this conflict. You complete eachother in such a way that it will be impossible for the other to go on if one of you gets removed from the game. You are also confirmed town to eachother. He is Itchni, and you may converse at any time in this quicktopic while you are alive.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.

http://quicktopic.com/48/H/L84PvP2VJ5qp

(Hint: URLs)

Immediate subbing out was in order. I was lucky enough to have an immediate fix to the problem - they were already close enough to being one slot, so all I had to do was merge them. I had to do this because their substitutions would essentially get insta-cleared once they claimed, and I wasn't going to have the equivalent of two innocent child roles. In the end, town earned an innocent child but lost the voice of Itchni and AG. This was a really unfortunate slip on my end because it was a simple mistake that cost me the base of my setup and two vocal players. As they say, though, the show must go on.

The other two active hosting decisions were killing Ullar and extending D2. The former barely needs an explanation - by doing that publicly like a spoil sport he basically cleared his slot, and no substitution was going to fix that (even if I had substitutions!). As for the extension, I shouldn't have given it away - the third 24 hours were a waste of time. Funny thing about that; I'd already randed the lynch after the first 48 hours, and it was going to be aska anyway, regardless of majority.

The one last thing that needs to be gone over is actually pretty important: the silencer shens. It's one of those things that shouldn't be in the rules because they go under "be a good sport", but I don't blame DLE too much since it was way too tempting to pass up. Once DLE played the role of silence victim and essentially skipped D2, I couldn't simply note that no silencers exist because that would be the equivalent of outing him as scum. The best solution was to wait till it goes away. I'm a bit disappointed at the players here, though - silencers in NOC is bullshit to lynch over, and I'm pretty sure I've personally shown my disapproval here before. Oh well.

I might as well talk about the graveyard experiment - I wanted to see how well it'd work here, and, well, as expected, there wasn't an example set anywhere, and the game wasn't that interesting to comment on seriously anyway, so not much happened with it. The basic idea is to enjoy the paranoia with all the other dead folks until the game ends, yelling at living players for being dumb and not lynching the obvscum (via hindsight, yeah!!). It's usually pretty fun until someone gets too mad.

Role PMs:

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, smashlloyd20! You are Clumsy Clark, Town Innocent Child.

Huh? Where are you? You don't remember anything about a mafia game. Regardless, you will do your best to be of use to this 'town' thing. You have trouble holding onto personal belongings, so in the off-chance that the same happens to your Role PM, the whole town will know your role. Meaning, you will be confirmed town.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
Not much to say here. It's unfortunate that I had to insert another Innocent Child to the setup after UllarWarlord's stellar use of the role in the last game, but what's done is done. He showed up once in a while and shared his thoughts, which is the bare minimum.

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, vonFiedler! You are Reckless Rodney, Town Suicidal Doctor.

Playing it safe is boring. Some baddies are out to get you? Big deal. You're planning on confronting this by acting now, thinking later. At night, you may submit the ##Guard command. If successful, your target will survive the night. However, you have nothing but your bare hands at your disposal, so any attempts at your target's life will cost your own.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
As I said before, this was the town meatshield. You're basically meant act as a usual doc, unless you know without a doubt that you're better to be around than the guy you're targeting. In von's case... he was a pretty big liability in LYLO (the results speak for themselves), so choosing to idle wasn't the best move, but I'm not going to fault him for it, especially since he saw things in a very different light 99% of the time. A classic case of "I don't know what color is scum" - he was hunting alright, but not for the right things. It's easy thinking scum are those who disagree with you, but more often than not the opposite is true - scum usually won't tangle themselves in heated arguments for no reason. His effort was admirable, though.

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Paperblade! You are Curious Carl, Town Box Collector.

Who are your allies? What is the scumteam planning? You're itching to know! Similarly, you really want to know the contents of the boxes you got on the way here from an anonymous fellow. They came in different colors, too! Distracting red, cozy blue and intriguing yellow. Once per day, you may include the ##Red, ##Blue or ##Yellow command in a post. Your target will receive a box of the specified color by the end of the day, and may open it at any given night by submitting the ##Open command.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
This role was meant to add some spice to the game. The boxes did nothing - I never lied about that, I simply said that he had them (sure, maybe I did hint at hook/bg/inspect a LITTLE bit). Paperblade went on minimal contribution but he was usually right... until D2, anyway. He was better in Company, unfortunately.

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, idiotfrommars! You are Dedicated Dave, Town Priest.

You do not know how you winded up in the midst of this conflict. You do know that you will take no part in this senseless manslaughter so long as your sanity is with you. As a result, you are unable to cast a hammer vote at any point in the day. Any hammer votes casted by you will not register regardless.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
The other 'interesting' role. This one's meant to make people raise their brow when it's claimed. It was never a factor, though. ifm did a good job seeming town but kind of like Paperblade he kind of steered away from the right track as the game went on. Pinpointing the reason for this is pretty hard, since it wasn't just those two but the town collectively.

Blue_Tornado said:
WELCOME TO SUNDAY MAFIA, Walrein! YOU ARE VOCAL VICKY, VANILLA TOWN.

YOU LIKE TO EXPRESS YOURSELF. YOU LIKE TO BE HEARD. THIS IS WHAT THIS SILLY 'TOWN' THING IS ABOUT, NO? YOU FEEL AT HOME ALREADY. SINCE YOUR OPINIONS ARE SO IMPOTANT (TO YOU, AND EXPECTEDLY TO EVERYONE ELSE), YOU MUST POST IN ALL CAPS FOR THE MAJORITY OF YOUR POSTS AT ANY GIVEN DAY.

YOU WIN IF ALL THREATS TO TOWN ARE REMOVED FROM THE GAME.
ALL CAPS. It hurt to see Walrein suffer from this pr, it's usually pretty fun and EMPOWERING, oh well. He did well for the short time he was around. It's still an enigma how the hell he ended up being lynched, I really want people to fill me in on that one. If only he'd been around for D2 as well and VB was lynched...

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Jalmont! You are Cuddly Connor, Vanilla Town.

Um, what's with all the funny people with the angry faces? You are quite the open person and you plan on making everything better! What better way to do that than spread the love around? You do not use the ##Vote command. Instead, you are required to use the ##Huggles command in order to cast votes at any given day.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
Powerrole indeed. Jalmont made me flip my shit when he avoided voting even ONCE. Party pooper. No postgame comments for you.

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, UllarWarlord! You are Ridiculous Ryan, Vanilla Town.

You are a ridiculous person. What this means, you do not know, but you get that a lot. Your Role PM lacks in anything substantial, though, and you find that pretty damn ridiculous.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
He actually played alright until he decided to not give a shit and fuck the entire town over his game-related anger. Own up and contact me privately. If everyone could hold back their rage, you were able to do it too. Prime example of people that need listing. Come back when you're a little more mature.

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, askaninjask! You are Hyper Harold, Vanilla Town.

Unsurprisingly, you are hyper! You can't wait for this game to start. You stayed up all night! Too bad the host thought it would be dangerous to give you anything substantial for the risk that you'll screw up.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
Oh man. For someone that was an obvious MVP candidate for catching DLE within the first 24 hours, you sure had a disappointing finish. A little less jarring than the Walrein lynch, but even here I find it hard to understand how he got lynched over LYLO-bait Agape. Ah well. Considering everyone had an off D2, you weren't alone. I do want to know where that DLE suspicion disappeared to, though. >:(

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Agape! You are Presistent Pete, Vanilla Town.

You are not the kind of guy people are glad to be around. While you may have good intentions, things don't always go as planned. You do not know if your lackluster role is a result of this, but you hope not.

You win if all threats to town are removed from the game.
Both you and von lacked that crucial experience to let go and accept that you're town slapfighting. A big part of NOC is to learn and improve, so it's not too bad. Like von, you put in plenty of effort and that's one of the requirements for good town play. As this is the last VT, it's worth mentioning that, like last game, pretty much all the VTs died first (with the exception of Paperblade, but that's close enough).

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, MeowMixx! You are Organized Olga, Mafia Janitor.

You have this game planned from the very beginning, or so you hope! Townies are an unpredictable bunch. You're counting on your teammates to help you if things head south. Not to mention, you have a trump card readied ahead of time. Once in the game, at night, you may submit the ##Cleanup command. You will override your team's kill and your target will be removed from the game without being flipped. In addition, your teammates, Popular Paulina and Frustrated Fred, are close by. They are Vintage Books and Da Letter El respectively, and you may converse at any time in this quicktopic while you are alive.

You win if your team outnumbers the remaining players or if nothing can prevent the same.
Good show. I'd rank his scum play here as above average, and that was more than enough to carry him to as many LYLOs as he wanted. He'd be pretty hard to catch, to be sure, and I doubt town would manage it even in a good LYLO. His insights in the scum topic were also correct pretty much 100% of the time, it's a shame he listened to DLE most of the time though, whose insights were way worse. :)

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Vintage Books! You are Popular Paulina, Mafia Beloved Princess.

You can't seem to recall how you got here, especially since you wouldn't willingly join this conflict. People care about you, so much that they will forego any night action in their disposal in the event of your lynch. In a way, the following night would be skipped entirely. In addition, your teammates, Organized Olga and Frustrated Fred, are close by. They are MeowMixx and Da Letter El respectively, and you may converse at any time in this quicktopic while you are alive.

You win if your team outnumbers the remaining players or if nothing can prevent the same.
A little lesson in mafia: lurking is the best and most common scum strategy. He really should have been the D1 lynch; his play was worse than in last game, and compared to Walrein, his wagon should have been a slam dunk. I don't really know what happened - the scumteam were pretty much accepting it with DLE almost singlehandedly giving the final push. Fortunately for him, aska came to the rescue with the completely unneeded switch to Walrein. That was quite the spectacle. I wouldn't say his D2 was stellar either but apparently it was enough to carry him to LYLO, so there's that.

Blue_Tornado said:
Welcome to Sunday Mafia, Da Letter El! You are Frustrated Fred, Mafia Activator.

You are not in the best of moods. Let's say that it is a combination of things you'd rather not go into. You need to let everyone see your emotions! You must display your frustration through an emoticon of your choosing (be creative here!) for the majority of your posts at any given day. Also, once in the game, you may include the ##Activate command in a post to let off some steam. This does nothing but prompt the host to announce that an ability was activated, though. In addition, your teammates, Organized Olga and Popular Paulina, are close by. They are MeowMixx and Vintage Books respectively, and you may converse at any time in this quicktopic while you are alive.

You win if your team outnumbers the remaining players or if nothing can prevent the same.
Not gonna lie, his ED1 was practically begging to be called out for and thankfully aska delivered, but failed to carry it out fully. He also SHOULD have accidentally nailed VB if not for what happened, and the silencer thing is still kind of disappointing, but his overall effort made up for it. Not his best game, but that's fine.

Overblown Award Ceremony:

Town MVP goes to Walrein!
Scum MVP and Overall MVP goes to MeowMixx!
Most Committed Player goes to vonFiedler and Agape, split in half!
Enormous Killjoy goes to Jalmont, the shady fucker!

Next game is 9p, 6vt/1doc/2goon, I'm not hosting, Y/N?
 

vonFiedler

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#2
When did I ever think scum was "players who disagree with me?". When did I ever slap fight with agape? Have you read his posts? I stated my mind when players acted fishy, and when I asked for more opinions the village was nonexistent. Unlike anyone else past D1, I thoroughly listed the reasons for my lynch targets (and my suspicions towards DLE). Anyone can go back and read them.
 
#3
Admittedly I didn't read the game thoroughly, so it was just the overall impression I got, though sure, my choice of words wasn't the best, sorry about that. Only one of the uses of postgame is to talk things over. What I can say for sure is that lack of experience was quite the factor. You could theoretically list reasons to lynch anyone in the game (some less convincing than others), and your reasons weren't wrong outright. Point is, townies make mistakes too, and differentiating between town and scum is key in these scenarios.
 

vonFiedler

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#4
You could theoretically list reasons to lynch anyone in the game (some less convincing than others)
A point that I brought up in regards to Vintage Books. I was well aware that lurking was a scum tactic. However, see Day 2. Or several villagers from Day 1.

I did learn a few things. I learned that Silencer is not a thing in NOC. That perplexes me given that I always thought Silencer was a holdover from NOC where it would actually be useful. I had guessed that the odds of it being in a 13 player game were slim though, but given the absolute need to lynch correctly on Day 2 AND the from my perspective vastly increasing scumminess in agape's direction, could you blame me? Any lynch had its possible flaws. I felt that on Day 3 we could lynch Agape and perhaps by Day 4 it'd be more apparent if we should lynch Meow/idiot/DLE.

The odds of Day 3 changing much were low, but "blitzing the vote", or in other words "a stealth lynch for a lynch with no deadline" is really the worst rule I've seen in playing mafia yet. Of course as soon anyone saw those three rushing a vote on LYLO we'd know they were mafia. It's metagaming at its finest.

48 hour deadlines are perhaps too little but inactivity is worse.
 
#5
A point that I brought up in regards to Vintage Books. I was well aware that lurking was a scum tactic. However, see Day 2. Or several villagers from Day 1.
Fair enough.

I did learn a few things. I learned that Silencer is not a thing in NOC. That perplexes me given that I always thought Silencer was a holdover from NOC where it would actually be useful. I had guessed that the odds of it being in a 13 player game were slim though, but given the absolute need to lynch correctly on Day 2 AND the from my perspective vastly increasing scumminess in agape's direction, could you blame me? Any lynch had its possible flaws. I felt that on Day 3 we could lynch Agape and perhaps by Day 4 it'd be more apparent if we should lynch Meow/idiot/DLE.
I can't blame you. It's a learning experience.

The odds of Day 3 changing much were low, but "blitzing the vote", or in other words "a stealth lynch for a lynch with no deadline" is really the worst rule I've seen in playing mafia yet. Of course as soon anyone saw those three rushing a vote on LYLO we'd know they were mafia. It's metagaming at its finest.
Thing is, it's not a rule - it's a possibility which needs to be taken into consideration. Making a rule against a game scenario would be pretty silly - it's universally accepted that you don't place a vote in LYLO unless you're dead set on scum (which you usually shouldn't do anyway unless it's 100% confirmed) or you think you had enough time to talk things over. All scum need is one misplaced vote to get instant majority.

48 hour deadlines are perhaps too little but inactivity is worse.
48hr was too short, but people didn't make use of the extension anyway, so I don't know how much of a difference longer deadlines would have made.
 

vonFiedler

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#6
Thing is, it's not a rule - it's a possibility which needs to be taken into consideration. Making a rule against a game scenario would be pretty silly - it's universally accepted that you don't place a vote in LYLO unless you're dead set on scum (which you usually shouldn't do anyway unless it's 100% confirmed) or you think you had enough time to talk things over. All scum need is one misplaced vote to get instant majority.
It's not a rule, it's metagaming. Now I know I'm just a country bumpkin trying to make his way in life as a game developer, and I might get laughed at for trying to apply some of my Wagnerian principles to a social game older than I am. However, for a game with a game master, sometimes more than one even, y'all sure do want to treat it like a rigid script where exploiting mechanics is perfectly acceptable. People play Runescape to this day because they want that kind of game, but me I'm Guild Wars 2 kind of fellow, where they just banned a couple thousands players for exploiting the spirit of the game. With mafia that spirit is a town coming together to defeat an evil entrenched within it, and if a village saw what happened today, they wouldn't just sit back and lynch someone just cause four people had their hand up. Would not happen in live sessions of mafia, and it only distinguishes itself from a stealth lynch in being just slightly sillier in context. Now you can all sit there and say "it's universally accepted". Well maybe when Pong was invented the idea of a video game being a ball and two paddles was universally accepted, but someone didn't accept it and that someone made Asteroids. Think about it.

EDIT: Actually don't think about it, this is the first game I ever played without a 2 hour grace period on majority so it's clearly not universally accepted anyway.
 
#7
It's not a rule, it's metagaming. Now I know I'm just a country bumpkin trying to make his way in life as a game developer, and I might get laughed at for trying to apply some of my Wagnerian principles to a social game older than I am. However, for a game with a game master, sometimes more than one even, y'all sure do want to treat it like a rigid script where exploiting mechanics is perfectly acceptable. People play Runescape to this day because they want that kind of game, but me I'm Guild Wars 2 kind of fellow, where they just banned a couple thousands players for exploiting the spirit of the game. With mafia that spirit is a town coming together to defeat an evil entrenched within it, and if a village saw what happened today, they wouldn't just sit back and lynch someone just cause four people had their hand up. Would not happen in live sessions of mafia, and it only distinguishes itself from a stealth lynch in being just slightly sillier in context. You can all sit there and say "it's universally accepted". Well maybe when Pong was invented the idea of a video game being a ball and two paddles was universally accepted, but someone didn't accept it and that someone made Asteroids. Think about it.
This is forum mafia. It's nothing like real life mafia. You can't judge people by facial expressions, etc. Mechanics also change - in forum mafia, this is possible. Regardless, it's not that big an issue that needs changing - all you have to do is discuss lynch targets without voting. I liked your comparisons, though.
 

vonFiedler

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#8
The fact that it wouldn't happen in live mafia is absolutely important because that is what forum mafia is based off of. And anything is a big issue if it is silly and breaks immersion.
 

Walrein

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Mafia Champion
#9
von calm your tits it's a game

btw posting restrictions in noc are dumb if they affect a person's ability to read the restricted posts
 

Jalmont

Mafia Champion
#10
honestly the mafia is lucky they killed me as i would've CRUSHED them

Oh well, good game to the mafia, why can't we ever have a NOC that actually ends up being a close game?

Also, I thought the short deadlines blew, I think 3 days with possible 24 hour extension would be better

PS i hope the mafia enjoyed using their janitor on a vanilla FUCK YOU PERSONAL VICTORY FOR ME
 
#11
His insights in the scum topic were also correct pretty much 100% of the time, it's a shame he listened to DLE most of the time though, whose insights were way worse. :)
I'm better than dle, you heard here first folks

anyway, this was a fun game and a good experience for me. my day 2 end kinda marked me as scummy, but it ended up not really mattering since we bush rushed and there were much better lynch targets than myself anyway. to be completely honest I've only ever been scum in NOC and I can't imagine how you guys are able to get such good reads on people as townies, so props to walrein for getting two out of three by the first day.
 
#13
Tbh I am so surprised that you didn't lynch me. I played horribly d1 and I got a little better but not by much. That post where I lynched walrein made me cringe because I thought it was so bad, right after I posted it.

Anyways von thanks for support the don't-lynch-vb campaign it really helped us.

Gg everyone and fuck you jalmont