You have a really interesting fantasy roster lol. You picked a lot of questionable people imo, mostly shimitake, regi shikimi, ryuk, and seagull joe
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Super Smash Bros 4 (Spoilers ITT)
- Thread starter LonelyNess
- Start date
Lots are based on bracket stuff (Seagull was a mistake, replaced with MJG).
MJG's r1 and r2 pool big matches are both Ryu's (DJ Jack and Trela). I think he can do both.
Regi's in pool 1 E50, notable players being BigMac (Chicago Sheik), Lord Sturm (Chicago Yoshi), and SlayerZ (California Peach). He's the G&W that took top 16 at EVO last year and almost beat custom ESAM, but now he also plays Rosalina iirc, which is a huge boon vs Peach and Yoshi. He could upset SlayerZ and then maybe beat Salena G&W/MK (I have absolutely no idea how that matchup goes) before losing to Ally, at which point he was a pretty doable losers round 2 to get into top 32, Xaltis, NAKAT, karna, and tearbear.
My final bracket isn't ready yet, but most of the other one's you asked about are placeholders. Doing more research.
Also, winners semi's are going to be Ranai vs ZeRo and Abadango vs Nairo. One issue with the projected results is that it just takes seeding into account and not matchups. MK vs Rosalina is insanely free for MK, and Abadango has way more experience with it, so he'll destroy Dabuz in winners quarters and get his rematch with Nairo (Abadango won last time but it could go either way). This is super helpful for Ranai, since Dabuz is honestly the most dangerous person in the entire tournament for him. If they meet in losers he will absolutely beat Nairo, and him vs ZeRo is a tossup.
MJG's r1 and r2 pool big matches are both Ryu's (DJ Jack and Trela). I think he can do both.
Regi's in pool 1 E50, notable players being BigMac (Chicago Sheik), Lord Sturm (Chicago Yoshi), and SlayerZ (California Peach). He's the G&W that took top 16 at EVO last year and almost beat custom ESAM, but now he also plays Rosalina iirc, which is a huge boon vs Peach and Yoshi. He could upset SlayerZ and then maybe beat Salena G&W/MK (I have absolutely no idea how that matchup goes) before losing to Ally, at which point he was a pretty doable losers round 2 to get into top 32, Xaltis, NAKAT, karna, and tearbear.
My final bracket isn't ready yet, but most of the other one's you asked about are placeholders. Doing more research.
Also, winners semi's are going to be Ranai vs ZeRo and Abadango vs Nairo. One issue with the projected results is that it just takes seeding into account and not matchups. MK vs Rosalina is insanely free for MK, and Abadango has way more experience with it, so he'll destroy Dabuz in winners quarters and get his rematch with Nairo (Abadango won last time but it could go either way). This is super helpful for Ranai, since Dabuz is honestly the most dangerous person in the entire tournament for him. If they meet in losers he will absolutely beat Nairo, and him vs ZeRo is a tossup.
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friday-sunday
here's the stream schedule for people who don't have it yet: http://www.genesisgaming.gg/streamschedule/
here's the stream schedule for people who don't have it yet: http://www.genesisgaming.gg/streamschedule/
So I've been watching a lot of tournament gameplay from different countries and it's vastly changed my perspective on character rankings, so I ended up remaking my tierlist.
S (Top Tier): Solo Viable. Destroys most characters, bad matchups are mainly amongst each other.
A (High Tier): Semi-Solo Viable. Less risk/reward than top tiers but overall great matchup spreads.
B (Good Tier): Secondary Needed. Does okay against most common threats, held back by weaknesses to others.
C (Mid Tier): Co-Main Needed. Playable matchups against some common threats, unplayable matchups against several top tiers.
D (Low Tier): Uphill Battle. Can win individuals sets as an underdog with the element of surprise, but struggles to place consistently.
S (Top Tier): Solo Viable. Destroys most characters, bad matchups are mainly amongst each other.
A (High Tier): Semi-Solo Viable. Less risk/reward than top tiers but overall great matchup spreads.
B (Good Tier): Secondary Needed. Does okay against most common threats, held back by weaknesses to others.
C (Mid Tier): Co-Main Needed. Playable matchups against some common threats, unplayable matchups against several top tiers.
D (Low Tier): Uphill Battle. Can win individuals sets as an underdog with the element of surprise, but struggles to place consistently.
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What's keeping Shulk so low in the list?So I've been watching a lot of tournament gameplay from different countries and it's vastly changed my perspective on character rankings, so I ended up remaking my tierlist.
S (Top Tier): Solo Viable. Destroys most characters, bad matchups are mainly amongst each other.
A (High Tier): Semi-Solo Viable. One or two really bad matchups.
B (Good Tier): Secondary Needed. Does okay against most common threats, held back by weaknesses to others.
C (Mid Tier): Co-Main Needed. Playable matchups against some common threats, unplayable matchups against several top tiers.
D (Low Tier): Uphill Battle. Can win individuals sets as an underdog with the element of surprise, but struggles to place consistently.
Frame data is a really big reason
Then there's no point
How exactly? Numerous japanese tier list I have seen online don't rank the characters in order within each category either.
Tier lists are supposed to determine which character is better than another and shit like that, if you don't put them in order then you wouldn't have a top 15 list for example which is probably what people care about most.
Damn Abadango makes one tier list and meta knight is an S staple now I guess 0_0. Not saying it's wrong (I don't think it is) but just damn lmao. Even funnier is how everyone originally thought Meta Knight was like C+ lol until summer.
Anyways here's mine!!
S: Amazing. Likely to win tournaments. Very good MU spreads (worst MUs tend to be like 60-40, nothing worse). Have flaws, but can be easily worked around. Solo-mainable for sure.
A: Great. Likely for top 5, possible tournament winners. Tend to have certain flaws which, when exploited, can make it somewhat tough to win against other S / A tiers. Some may struggle from specific S / A MUs. Overall very strong though. Solo-mainable, can use a secondary for specific MUs.
B: Good. Potentially top 8, may take a tournament with a secondary or as a secondary to another top tier. Generally good MU spreads, but either have overall poor top tier MUs or have a couple of very, very bad MUs. Solo-mainable, but thrive when used alongside another character.
C: Really just an offshoot of B tier. I'd say these character either have less tournament representation, or have worse MUs than those in the tier above. Tend to need a secondary more than those in the tier above.
D: Ok. Likely for top 32. Characters have strong tools which allow them to outplay their opponent, but tend to have exploitable weaknesses or flaws which leave them vulnerable against certain characters. Usually have to outplay your opponent to win. Can use opponent's lack of MU knowledge to their advantage. Usually require secondary to make it to top 8 / 9th.
E: Flawed. Potentially top 32. Similar to D in that they have specific strong tool with exploitable weaknesses. However, these character's weaknesses either outnumber their flaws, or their flaws are so massive they find it difficult to preform. Basically require a secondary to make it to top 12, and can only get top 32 with great dedication / a skilled player to back them up. Lack of MU knowledge / skill on their opponent's behalf will usually assist in these char's bracket runs.
F: Avoid. Unlikely for any recognizable place. These characters have massive weaknesses which make them difficult to do well with. Either require and extremely skilled player behind them or bracket luck to make top 32. Tend to rely on the opponent's lack of MU knowledge or skill to secure wins.
Notes: No Miis because I've never fought any good ones. Also I tried to rank them in order, but the actual ranks themselves are much more important. Oh also assuming national tournaments for the rankings. Cloud is so new that idk where to put him really, so I may be under / overrating him.
Anyways here's mine!!
S: Amazing. Likely to win tournaments. Very good MU spreads (worst MUs tend to be like 60-40, nothing worse). Have flaws, but can be easily worked around. Solo-mainable for sure.
A: Great. Likely for top 5, possible tournament winners. Tend to have certain flaws which, when exploited, can make it somewhat tough to win against other S / A tiers. Some may struggle from specific S / A MUs. Overall very strong though. Solo-mainable, can use a secondary for specific MUs.
B: Good. Potentially top 8, may take a tournament with a secondary or as a secondary to another top tier. Generally good MU spreads, but either have overall poor top tier MUs or have a couple of very, very bad MUs. Solo-mainable, but thrive when used alongside another character.
C: Really just an offshoot of B tier. I'd say these character either have less tournament representation, or have worse MUs than those in the tier above. Tend to need a secondary more than those in the tier above.
D: Ok. Likely for top 32. Characters have strong tools which allow them to outplay their opponent, but tend to have exploitable weaknesses or flaws which leave them vulnerable against certain characters. Usually have to outplay your opponent to win. Can use opponent's lack of MU knowledge to their advantage. Usually require secondary to make it to top 8 / 9th.
E: Flawed. Potentially top 32. Similar to D in that they have specific strong tool with exploitable weaknesses. However, these character's weaknesses either outnumber their flaws, or their flaws are so massive they find it difficult to preform. Basically require a secondary to make it to top 12, and can only get top 32 with great dedication / a skilled player to back them up. Lack of MU knowledge / skill on their opponent's behalf will usually assist in these char's bracket runs.
F: Avoid. Unlikely for any recognizable place. These characters have massive weaknesses which make them difficult to do well with. Either require and extremely skilled player behind them or bracket luck to make top 32. Tend to rely on the opponent's lack of MU knowledge or skill to secure wins.
Notes: No Miis because I've never fought any good ones. Also I tried to rank them in order, but the actual ranks themselves are much more important. Oh also assuming national tournaments for the rankings. Cloud is so new that idk where to put him really, so I may be under / overrating him.
What's up with all this hate on Shulk? And Zelda? Here's what I believe everything is:
I play Falco and Shulk a ton and I can see they have real potential. Falco for one has an amazing combo game and is great at edge guarding, and shulk was buffed a lot by the shieldstun changes and a landing lag reduction which makes his nair safe on shield. He's still...not good judging by how difficult he is to use to his full potential but I believe it really takes a lot to push you into being a "poor" character.
Zelda is also by far from the worst character in the game, seeing as she has really quick combos and the fact that her up B can kill practically anything at around 70. Ganondorf/Jigglypuff are just utter trash that lose to a wide variety of characters by huge margins.
I play Falco and Shulk a ton and I can see they have real potential. Falco for one has an amazing combo game and is great at edge guarding, and shulk was buffed a lot by the shieldstun changes and a landing lag reduction which makes his nair safe on shield. He's still...not good judging by how difficult he is to use to his full potential but I believe it really takes a lot to push you into being a "poor" character.
Zelda is also by far from the worst character in the game, seeing as she has really quick combos and the fact that her up B can kill practically anything at around 70. Ganondorf/Jigglypuff are just utter trash that lose to a wide variety of characters by huge margins.
What about Palutena? I'm not really a competitive Smash expert, and I'm curious to know why you ranked her so low.What's up with all this hate on Shulk? And Zelda? Here's what I believe everything is:
I play Falco and Shulk a ton and I can see they have real potential. Falco for one has an amazing combo game and is great at edge guarding, and shulk was buffed a lot by the shieldstun changes and a landing lag reduction which makes his nair safe on shield. He's still...not good judging by how difficult he is to use to his full potential but I believe it really takes a lot to push you into being a "poor" character.
Zelda is also by far from the worst character in the game, seeing as she has really quick combos and the fact that her up B can kill practically anything at around 70. Ganondorf/Jigglypuff are just utter trash that lose to a wide variety of characters by huge margins.
I mean I can understand thinking there's too much Shulk hate, but above Mega Man / Pac Man / Olimar / Toon Link? Just... how?
In fact how do you put characters like Bowser and Falco above the four I mentioned above? Falco's combo game is ok and his edgeguarding is probably his only real selling point. Outside of that you really rely on reads in neutral I feel... just watch Keitaro play. Bowser is just... Bowser. Can't land for shit, and his recovery is only ok. Struggles with heavy zoners as well, and ofc gets combo'd cause you know fatty. The up throw buff helped but I don't think it's as helpful as people think it is.
Also Zelda and Wii Fit Trainer should flat-out switch on your tier list. I don't care if her Up B kills at 70%, she dies at 70% and her moves are much too slow to make up for it. She relies on intense spacing and prediction at top level... and has like 0 results because of it. Bottom 10 easily, bottom 5 most likely.
In fact how do you put characters like Bowser and Falco above the four I mentioned above? Falco's combo game is ok and his edgeguarding is probably his only real selling point. Outside of that you really rely on reads in neutral I feel... just watch Keitaro play. Bowser is just... Bowser. Can't land for shit, and his recovery is only ok. Struggles with heavy zoners as well, and ofc gets combo'd cause you know fatty. The up throw buff helped but I don't think it's as helpful as people think it is.
Also Zelda and Wii Fit Trainer should flat-out switch on your tier list. I don't care if her Up B kills at 70%, she dies at 70% and her moves are much too slow to make up for it. She relies on intense spacing and prediction at top level... and has like 0 results because of it. Bottom 10 easily, bottom 5 most likely.
Here is my ranking of top tiers since I'm too lazy to make a full tier list.
S: Sheik, ZSS
A+: Ryu, Rosa, MK, Cloud
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Villager
A-: Diddy, Pika, Dpit, Pit
Ryu and Rosa are tied
S: Sheik, ZSS
A+: Ryu, Rosa, MK, Cloud
A: Sonic, Mario, Fox, Villager
A-: Diddy, Pika, Dpit, Pit
Ryu and Rosa are tied
People overestimate the landing problem WAY too much. So what if he can't land sometimes and gets punished for it? He's still an extreme heavyweight and dies extremely late, honestly if he didn't have problems landing he'd be fucking broken because a command grab that comes out frame 8 AND a grab kill setup that's confirmed around 80% is ridiculously fucking good, not to mention he has some of the best out of shield options, his ledge coverage is godlike, and he has good aerials that autocancel. The only thing he was lacking was a combo throw, and he got it. He can now combo at all percents leading up to kill percent. That is fucking scary. Bowser is hella good right now. His recovery is also pretty underrated considering it's hard to challenge his up b and it covers quite a bit of distance. That's not to mention he has quite a few scary jab mixups; jab grab, jab down b, jab side b, and jab dtilt. Bowser was never bottom tier, and with the buffs he's gotten he's honestly pretty fucking scary, and better than donkey kong cuz bowser's setups works at way more lenient percents.
She has shitty frame data. She's a featherweight character with more lag than fucking Ganondorf. She has very weak attacks and very little combos. Her default specials suck. Especially Counter, its completely useless. Without Lightweight and Super Speed, Palutena isn't even decent. Every character has something that makes them unique or good, such as Zelda's Up B or Jigglypuff's Rest. Palutena has nothing other than her custom moves, and even with them she's still held back by her slow moves. IMO if a character had to take the burden of being the worst, it should be Palutena.
Palutena at least has grab combos and good aerials in addition to pretty good mobility and amazing jab.
Ganon has almost nothing lmao, the entire cast shits on him. Same goes to jiggs. Palutena's bottom 5 (along with jigs/ganon/samus/someone else NOT zelda in no order) but ganon or jiggs are obviously worst.
Most of these tier lists just inflate characters that each user thinks are good and throw characters that they have barely touched into lower rankings
Most of the time when ranking characters you have to consider that some of these characters require more skill and understanding than others - you can't just grab ZSS or Sheik and immediately start killing opponents - both of these characters have specialized skillsets that require mastery over in order to be truly potent. Whereas a character like Pikachu or Mario is not that difficult to learn to use. Most of the time, we rank some characters requiring skill to be used effectively above others because they have been explored more.
Characters like Mega Man, Marth, and Link in terms of legitimate competitive strategies are usually not well known how to use. Most of the time, we just say that they flat-out lose to characters like ZSS / Sheik / Villager / Sonic because we do not know how we are supposed to counter-play against them. The real question in viability is: how well can a character be utilized with the appropriate skill needed, and how well can it counter-play against the more dominant characters?
Most of the time when ranking characters you have to consider that some of these characters require more skill and understanding than others - you can't just grab ZSS or Sheik and immediately start killing opponents - both of these characters have specialized skillsets that require mastery over in order to be truly potent. Whereas a character like Pikachu or Mario is not that difficult to learn to use. Most of the time, we rank some characters requiring skill to be used effectively above others because they have been explored more.
Characters like Mega Man, Marth, and Link in terms of legitimate competitive strategies are usually not well known how to use. Most of the time, we just say that they flat-out lose to characters like ZSS / Sheik / Villager / Sonic because we do not know how we are supposed to counter-play against them. The real question in viability is: how well can a character be utilized with the appropriate skill needed, and how well can it counter-play against the more dominant characters?
i don't see how anyone but jigglypuff could be the worst, she's horribly light and incredibly unthreatening. rest is terrible especially when you have characters than can more easily kill way earlier and not risk just getting killed in return because it doesn't always star ko, she has huge trouble killing thanks to bad smashes and no kill throw, tons of her moves are useless, even her good moves have very mediocre frame data. all she has is a really good nair and good edgeguarding but like half that cast has good edgeguarding anyway so lol. ganon at least has a great set of aerials, a good side b that sets up for a lot of things, good weight, and no problems killing.
also one character that has been consistently ranked 10-20 places too low on most of these lists is mr game and watch. he's easily one of the best mid tiers, his only real flaws are bad weight and poor approach options, but everything else he has is really good. he has some of the best grab combos in the game, amazing edgeguarding, fantastic and nearly impossible to gimp recovery, a kill throw setup, and amazing up smash with invincibility and basically no endlag. seeing him in d tier in some of these tier lists makes me cringe.
also one character that has been consistently ranked 10-20 places too low on most of these lists is mr game and watch. he's easily one of the best mid tiers, his only real flaws are bad weight and poor approach options, but everything else he has is really good. he has some of the best grab combos in the game, amazing edgeguarding, fantastic and nearly impossible to gimp recovery, a kill throw setup, and amazing up smash with invincibility and basically no endlag. seeing him in d tier in some of these tier lists makes me cringe.
lol the old "tiers inflate character use" fallacy. People use what is good, and good players gravitate towards good characters.
Fact is most of the tier lists made by big players and those who are super competitive are for tournaments. So please lets see some tournament results from Mega Man and Link before you say things similar to "they have potential". You can be the best on the block with them but that only goes so far.