Metagame Suspect Discussion - Baton Pass

[macle]

Based off the nominations: Suspect nothing and Baton Pass had the highest votes and were chosen as suspects. Obviously you cant suspect suspect nothing so we are focusing on Baton Pass.

people who are eligible for council

Aaron's Aron
absdaddy
Adri989898
Aerow
Akkeshi
Alcamite
AlvaroJS
Anto
Apt-get
Arifeen
blarajan
blinkie
boo836
Cheek Pouch
cityfolk
Corporal Levi
Cranham
DatCoconut
DeathxShinigami
Diiddy
DrReuniclus
dsr95
elmatador
Eniigma
fatty
Fiend Hound
fitzy72
Flame Emblem
Floushaide
Fran17
Freeroamer
ggggd
Gloom
Goao
GoddessBriyella
H&MBerkeley
Hairy Toenail
Hawkstar
Heysup
Hyuhyy
Infamy
inscribe
Iron Caliber
ISuckLolSup
J_ohn76
Jessilina
just a trick
Justintown11
Karlpower
Killua kun
Kingmidas
Kopaka
Legitimate Username
Leremyju
lilnick16
livio
Lord Alphose
Lord Minds
Lovesage
Mambo
Maomiraeniya
MarcerCyoon
Master Sunny-EX
Melonz
Merritt
Metaphysical
mostthe3rd
Mysteria
Nani Man
Nineage
Omastar42
OP
Pagoose
Pikasohn
queenlucy
QuoteCS
Raiza.
rhydonphilip
Rumor
RZL2000
Sae Sae
SilentMango
Sken
soTsoT
sparktrain
Sparkychild
Svalkenaeres
Sweep
tazz
tecado
The Avalanches
The Mansavage
The Quasar
The TurtleLord
thecrystalonix
TheFenderStory
Tom Bus
trash
trev
Tricking
TruSwagBlu
unfixable
Water Drone
Yagura
ZoroarkForever
Λ (v/vadre)

Thank to quotecs for counting votes and helping me confirm votes and rowan for making the last 2 threads.

Current council members are Goddess Briyella, apt-get, and fatty. Remember to be active and posting because we aren't afraid to remove for inactivity. So that leaves 4 council spots up in the air and 5 rotating council spots are open.

Discuss these questions regarding the suspects:

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, how exactly are we nerfing it?

If 1 is satisfied, then 2 and 3 don't matter. If 1 is not satisfied, then the latter qualities in tandem might be worth banning it. 4 is more a discussion point since I assume most people don't want to just ban the move Baton Pass.

DISCUSS AWAY. Post in this thread with as many (good) replays as you want, explanations of Baton Pass as to whether it is broken or not, or your defense for it. Well made posts outlining your reasoning, well made responses to other people's posts, and just overall discussion in this thread is going to be very much taken into consideration when I decide the council members.

The thread will be open for 1 week. If the discussion is still going strong, we will keep the thread open.

 

[Heysup]

dislike af.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Basically, not even close. Here is my post illustrating why: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-41#post-6086519

If your team needs to risk a 50/50 to beat it, your team sucks.

Not only is it really hard for a BP team to beat any good player, but it's basically an algorithm for that good player to win. This is especially true with Pokemon like Fletchling.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

it sucks so it's rarely used on the ladder and basically never used in tournaments.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

No, but a banning or limiting of BP would definitely deter individuals from taking LC seriously.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

If we are banning Baton Pass, in order to not seem crazy we should probably just ban all BP chains. Limit teams to 1. But please, do not do this.

 

[TheFenderStory]

Well i'll happily jump in here. My first impression upon reading that Baton Pass was being suspected was LOL. I've played plenty of baton pass during the suspect test in particular and I can say for a fact that it is not broken at all. Here's why:

Taunt and Encore Exist

Baton Pass relies on being able to consistently use boosting moves and pass when needed. If you interrupt this process using a move like taunt or encore, then your opponent's next move will be typing forfeit which brings me to my next point.

One Check is all it takes

Sure it is possible to win a game using baton pass if your opponent manages to stall your chain somehow, but it is exceptionally difficult to do. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-212263174. Yes i was able to come back and defeat my opponent here in spite of his taunt user, however this was only to due some major mistakes my opponent made. In most situations the second a chain is broken the game ends.

Setup

Identifying a baton pass team is exceptionally easy. There are very distinctive mons such as Mime Jr., Munna, Torchic that clearly reveal the opponents plan. Simply leading with a setup sweeper against an opponents Torch can put a huge dent in there plan. Some Torchics will run will-o-wisp as an attempt to beat physical setup, and while this limits setup as a method of walling slightly, it does not prevent a large amount of mons from using torch as setup fodder.

To Conclude

As for whether or not BP is making LC less fun I would argue it's not. Only a handful of people run baton pass effectively and even then, it rarely appears in important games or tours, only on the ladder to mess around. I don't see how this is really an issue for the meta at all. Baton pass is not something I see to be an issue in LC thanks largely to the fact that the typical mons on a BP team in LC are just not all that great compared to in other tiers. Lets leave baton pass as it is because even if we passed a clause, are we really even changing anything about the metagame?

 

[Fiend]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Not really, it is rather matchup based and most users of BP teams bring more traditional teams to matches they value winning. It's weak to several viable mons, and even just random as hell things the ladder comes up with. A good lead vs BP allows you to win. If you set up before they can boost defenses, you have the best likelihood to win. Even if they burn you, a +6 burned Drilbur/Fletchling/Tirt/Dwebble/Pawniard/Mienfoo even will still hurt more than the team would like.

Additionally, Torchic, Togepi, and Mienfoo pass all have strong matchups vs BP teams. While I'm not saying spam this to beat BP, simply having one of these makes you much more likely to smash the team rather easily. Even a simple wallbreaker like Gastly can ruin PB if the mispredict. Sub as torchic protects, and you're going to make them feel bad for trying.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

I'm fine with losing a game to BP when I have a terrible team. LC is cited as not fun for other reasons.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Nope. Never.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

Good question; I'd imagine bp on all but 3 mons like OU started with. Or knock it down to 1 BP mon per team. Really doesn't matter.

Also, why did so many people vote for this? I rather ban Pawn over this.

 

[doomsday doink]

LOL

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
Baton Pass pretty much popped out of nowhere, with only a few users actually being able to craft successful teams (I'm looking at you ZoroarkForever and Kopaka). Outside of the differences between those two teams that you'll be seeing 98% of the time you fight Baton Pass, there is 0 diversity when it comes to BP teams and you are going to know whether your opponent's team is Baton Pass as soon as the match loads. There's no surprise factor when you're facing Baton Pass and you'll know from Turn 1 if you've won the game. Taunt, Haze, Encore, Toxic Spikes, etc are all good means of defeating Baton Pass, and the only thing you really have to predict is when your opponent is going to bust out their Gothita to try to trap your means of using these moves.

Baton Pass was severely limited in OU, but mainly because of two factors: Espeon and Scolipede. LC doesn't have any equivalents to these Pokemon, as Natu can't run Magic Bounce and Baton Pass on the same set and Venipede can't learn Baton Pass. The closest thing to Scolipede is Torchic, which has never been deemed ban-worthy by itself. OU's BP teams weren't nearly as match-up based as current LC BP teams are, which resulted in that archetype being incredibly threatening and annoying. Taunt and Encore are common moves generally found on most LC teams, and this makes it easy for most teams to beat Baton Pass (something which couldn't be achieved in OU due to the presence of Espeon).

You can also just set up your sweeper alongside a Baton Pass chain and just muscle through it.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
I guess it limits teambuilding a bit by requiring every team to have a Taunt, Encore, etc user, but these are good moves anyways and I find myself having at least one on almost all of my teams. The match-up factor is pretty annoying because you can just auto-lose games from the team preview, but outside of that Baton Pass isn't that difficult of an archetype to deal with and if anything it creates a new archetype which increases the diversity of teams you'll run into (which is pretty fun imo).

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Nobody has ever said "Baton Pass made me stop playing LC" and nobody ever will. It's not some overpowered strategy that everyone and their mother is spamming on the ladder (although the latter is kinda true so fuck you guys) and it's definitely not a major deterrent for those trying to get involved in LC. The unique mechanics of LC, VoltTurn, and trapping turn away more people than anything else, but those aren't by any means broken. Baton Pass is just some annoying strategy that nobody likes to face, as it just results in easy wins and losses.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?
Yeah, Baton Pass is annoying, and it doesn't really hurt anything by nerfing it in some manner. I think if we are to nerf BP, we should limit every team to only two Pokemon with Baton Pass, as this'll still allow for fun Quickpass teams (absdaddy) while still tearing apart the standard Baton Pass team that you see spammed everywhere. Banning the move itself is preposterous, as it'd remove a nifty utility option for escaping trappers and it would ruin Quickpass shenanigans. Also, Heysup, your theory that limiting Baton Pass would make LC look like a joke isn't that sound imo, as the biggest and most played metagame already nerfed the shit out of it; because LC's BP chains aren't as broken as OU's were, we'll only be nerfing it slightly, mainly because it's annoying as shit and solely based on match-ups.

 

[infamy]

What. Pardon my French, but why the actual fuck would you ban Baton Pass? There's literally nothing broken about it.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
No. It has ways to beat all its counters, but so does every other playstyle. Might as well ban webs, voltturn, and stall now too.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?
No. It's never even seen.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
If someone played Baton Pass on the ladder, yeah, they might quit, but at the same time the availability of the playstyle as opposed to it being banned in OU may draw people to the tier (e.g., dEniSsSs is in the ORAS LC tour).

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?
We're banning a viable playstyle because we don't like playing against it.

 

[kingmidas]

dislike af.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Basically, not even close. Here is my post illustrating why: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-discussion-thread.3505710/page-41#post-6086519

If your team needs to risk a 50/50 to beat it, your team sucks.

Not only is it really hard for a BP team to beat any good player, but it's basically an algorithm for that good player to win. This is especially true with Pokemon like Fletchling.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

it sucks so it's rarely used on the ladder and basically never used in tournaments.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

No, but a banning or limiting of BP would definitely deter individuals from taking LC seriously.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

If we are banning Baton Pass, in order to not seem crazy we should probably just ban all BP chains. Limit teams to 1. But please, do not do this.

While I share your dislike for this suspect, due process is more than worth it for the sake of showing any non-lcers watching that we will not make needless bans just because the possibility presents itself. and as such I'd like to bring up some reasons as to people liking a baton pass suspect/ban/limit, though I will say where I agree with you for the sake of showing I am anti-ban.

1) Is Baton Pass Broken
You said it yourself, it is not broken, but the fact is, something being broken is not the only way something is considered worthy of a ban. Baton pass is referred to as a matchup based playstyle, where if your opp gives you two free turns vs your team or you don't have the threats ready to slaughter baton pass early to mid game, it will overcome you. The BP team can not be given free turns or otherwise they will pose a threat and you'll need to think fast and on point. Quickpass is a different story and not really addressable as torchic is the only quick passer worth anything and we're not suspecting it. Before you remark saying I took your words out of context seeing as this is a question of brokenness, it just brings up that bp is clearly not a case of broken or not broken, with stuff such as meditite.

I believe that a senario can be forced if the bp user is smart enough to make the opp risk this, and it is in light of that that makes BP seem to (I don't mean to use the exact word but "uncompetitive")

BP can fit receivers such as crandios or spritzee that with the speed boost and added bulk/power easily use your fletchling trying to SD up on a team.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun

It is inherently matchup dependent so yeah it does make it a little less fun when you have to face it but otherwise yeah I agree its to risky.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from play Little Cup?
You hit the nail in the coffin, despite all the issues it may have, littlecup doesn't need fun oriented bans, it needs competitively oriented bans, and that is the only way to improve smogon's outlook on us, rather then having a better time playing on the ladder because those "annoying" bp teams slayed me 20 times, improve your teams and take it as a serious threat if you feel the need to and prepare.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?
Yeah pretty much, limiting it to 1 keeps torch pass a thing and gets rid of any complainers about 3 mon chains or something.

Edit: I forgot my own thoughts.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
Short answer is no. Baton pass is far from a broken move as it is not only a healthy addition to mons movepools that prevent trapping and can help create sweepers out of mons normally to weak or slow to preform tasks a set up move would grant them. But seeing as its obvious a nerf would be done rather than a ban in any scenario I'll further discuss full pass. Full baton pass is a very high risk high reward playstyle, and as such its deemed, skill less or "uncompetitive" to use that buzz word. Where it gets this is from the ability to completely demolish teams based on matchup alone or one misplay. That kind of ability to run through a game isn't exactly unique, but the uselessness it can throw into a match is an annoying matter. But I digress, taunt and set up sweepers such as fletchling can absolutely demolish teams from the get go if they don't have free turns, as the leads like torchic suffer greatly from two empty turns. Theres also a great lack of good users of bp mons, and therefore makes bp predicable and lackluster vs people wary of its power. Honestly if people are truly afraid of this thread they should start running mons capable of handling bp and are not completely niche otherwise like drilbur or fletchling or taunt foo or WW vullaby (dtail onix is shitty though just no)

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun.
Baton pass is far from the pure annoyance it was in OU, and aside from the occasional loss on the ladder which just made me want to not play badly no its not that bad. Sure it has the tools to be a nuisance but look onto yourself for the answers to your teams issues, not to suspects to get rid of said threat because you do not want to adapt.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from play Little Cup?
I've never really understood this question but I will try to address it as well as possible. The biggest issue for newest players is sinking into a hole of depression because they are getting the snot beat out of them by players that should beat them in normal circumstances. But a worse way and a much bigger reason for players would be unable to even have a slim chance of beating teams, such as baton pass winning based on matchup. I hardly believe anyone not willing to change their team to try to handle it even with a small grasp of LC would be a good to the metagames community, so it sorta cleans out the shitty players. I'd have to say overall it doesn't, it may even want people to play it just so they can enjoy 6-0ing people based on matchup once every 20 games! At least until someone hopefully sends them to the room to get helped.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?
Torch pass isn't broken at all but if baton pass needs a nerf limit it to 1 or 2.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Baton Pass:
Baton Pass in LC is most certainly not overly difficult to deal with; I don't think anybody is genuinely considering that. In fact, it's arguably not even that good; if you played a large number of games with a Baton Pass chain and then a large number of games with a team that is considered "standard", you would probably be able to win significantly more games with the standard team. If the opposing team packs Cottonee or Tauntfoo or Onix or Whirlwind variants of Hippo/lax, of course it's still possible to win, but unless you have one of the very specific Pokemon to beat said threat, you'll be fighting a very, very uphill battle. Furthermore, all of these are viable choices, and most teams can afford to fit at least one of them (offensively leaning teams can use Cottonee or Tauntfoo, and defensively leaning teams can run a phazer).

The issue here arises if you lack one of those four Pokemon, which isn't all that unreasonable; there are a lot of things Mienfoo wants to do with its fourth slot, or you might want to use a different Fighting-type. The other three Pokemon are somewhat difficult to fit onto the average team due to their very noticeable drawbacks; Cottonee's lack of reliable recovery and exploitable double weakness often renders it a shaky check to many threats that it's supposed to beat despite its overall excellent utility, Onix is weak, specially frail, is easily worn down, can really only do a few things that may not have much of an impact in the overall match, and simply isn't very good, and Whirlwind Hippopotas/Munchlax are a bit too slow and defensive to be able to fit onto teams that appreciate momentum. If you also lack something from a larger and more versatile pool of threats that is able to force a positive match-up against specific Pokemon that Baton Pass chains often lead with, then you're usually pretty much done for. Admittedly, this is a less reasonable situation now that Baton Pass has been established as a legitimate threat.

Examples of Pokemon that are able to beat certain Baton Pass leads but not others include Chinchou, which can severely threaten Torchic but struggles against Gothita, Shellder, who can Rock Blast Torchic but is taken out by Gothita, and Houndour, who traps Gothita but is Substitute bait for Torchic. In the case that the team facing Baton Pass runs one of these, turn one becomes a risky coinflip. If the Baton Pass user picks an unfavourable wrong lead, then a great deal of momentum is lost, the Baton Pass user might lose a key team member, and the chain will probably fall apart without it. However, if the Baton Pass user picks correctly, then the Baton Pass user gains a very large advantage over the opponent from the get-go, be it an important check being picked off or a free Substitute being set up, which will usually snowball into a situation where the Baton Pass chain cannot be stopped. Essentially, the game is decided on turn one, and that's neither competitive nor very fun.

The main difference between having to pack a check for Baton Pass chains and having to pack a check for other archetypes like Zigzagoon offense or Birdspam is that even if you do not have a dedicated check to Zigzagoon offense or Birdspam, you can still pull off a clean win by sufficiently pressuring the opponent's team and baiting out and removing their win conditions. On the other hand, if you lack a Baton Pass check and you're up against a Baton Pass chain, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose, bar factors that are irrelevant to decisions made by the players. Being forced to rely on hax or the Baton Pass user's misplays isn't at all a valid argument because it's completely out of the player's control, and frankly, an opponent who is unable to make the incredibly basic plays that Baton Pass requires to be effective in such a scenario will probably lose regardless of the team used. Because of how straight-forward using Baton Pass or fishing for hax is, both sides are more or less reduced to auto-pilot; little to no strategy is involved.

The best way to nerf Baton Pass would probably be just to limit the number of Baton Pass users per team to two or three. By preventing chains from running all of the tools they need to get around important impediments to the Stored Power sweep, the methods available to play around Baton Pass throughout the match increases dramatically, which makes fitting several effective Baton Pass checks onto a team much easier to do. Furthermore, because of the decrease in available stat passers on the team, Stored Power becomes less potent, turning the act of actually playing around the chain into a genuine possibility. This way, the much more legitimate Quickpass teams, where Torchic merely acts as a solid offensive support Pokemon, will still be available.

tl;dr Baton Pass deserves a nerf, not because it's too good, but because it has the tendency to decide the outcome of games too early for strategy to come into play, even against competent teams.

 

[Holiday]

Ffs with my post being deleted.

Alright. Baton Pass has seen a fair bit of controversy in the upper tiers, going from 6 users to 3 to only 1. Little Cup, however, does not fall under this umbrella, and full chains were allowed to thrive in all it's glory. There are two main types of Baton Pass. Full chains, which involve 4-6 baton passers slowly acquiring boosts before finalizing a pokemon to sweep with, usually using Stored Power. Quick Pass uses 1-2 passers to pass to a sweeper in order to end the battle on a moment's notice.

1- Is Baton Pass Broken? No. Full Chains are hard to pull off effectively, with fast/priority Taunts, Encores being a somewhat common sight, while Phazing, strong attacks and even an unlucky crit can end a chain. Quick Pass can usually set up and sweep (for the record, the passer is usually Torchic), and it's definitely the more dangerous form of BP, it's also easy to stop. In a way, the difference is like a Sticky Web Team and a Sticky Web supporter + 5 normal mons. Dedicated SW teams find it hard pressed to win once their webs are gone, while the other team functions well without webs and really well with Webs. Due to such a dramatic shift of how each playstyle is, along with the fact that full chains (aka what people whine about) is incredibly matchup reliant, it's just impossible to see how this is broken.

2- Is Baton Pass making LC not fun? No. It takes just as much skill to win with a good BP team as it does to beat it, which users like Tahu and ZF being examples. If you play a sloppy team idk why you'd find winning in LC not fun.

3- Is 1 and 2 making LC a deterring tier for new people? No. Mambo put it perfectly so I'll just C/P him. No better explanation for it.

LOL
3)Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?
Nobody has ever said "Baton Pass made me stop playing LC" and nobody ever will. It's not some overpowered strategy that everyone and their mother is spamming on the ladder (although the latter is kinda true so fuck you guys) and it's definitely not a major deterrent for those trying to get involved in LC. The unique mechanics of LC, VoltTurn, and trapping turn away more people than anything else, but those aren't by any means broken. Baton Pass is just some annoying strategy that nobody likes to face, as it just results in easy wins and losses.

4- If we ban BP, what are we actually banning?

You're banning a move that actually promotes diversity in the function of quickpassing. Youre banning a move that gives many a pokemon his or her niche. You're banning a playstyle that has been a staple of the past two gens. If you actually think these are things you should get rid of I pity you. No reason for banning Baton Pass, one of the most unique moves to grace LC.

 

[apt-get]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
No.

(will edit with reasoning later)

 

[Merritt]

Ah Baton Pass. I admit, I wasn't fully expecting this, although the sheer number of BP votes later on should have tipped me off. For obvious reasons, this draws many similarities to OU's Baton Pass "banning", but LC isn't OU.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

No. There was a lot of discussion in the Metagame Discussion Thread about its lack of brokenness, but ultimately it just lacks a few features to make it as effective as it was in OU. Certain setup mons can beat it (although most physical mons don't like Will-o-Wisp), taunt/prankster encore can break the chain, phazing hurts it severely, and if you boost before they get to their defense boosters you can just KO it. Once it starts collapsing, it all falls apart.

Quickpass isn't broken either. It sacrifices the utility of one Pokemon almost completely in order to make something else a threatening sweeper. It's no more broken or threatening than Shell Smash Omanyte or Zigzagoon (although that's not to say those aren't threatening).

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

This I can say yes to for FullPass. It's horrible to fight against FullPass and to fight with FullPass, since it requires optimal play from both ends. Seeing the FullPass team on the other side makes me groan inside and prepare for a really stupid game. It's incredibly prediction based and can determine games quickly. It's still beatable, but if you don't carry something that beats it or you make a misplay, you're going to lose.

QuickPass, on the other hand, is actually very fun to play against and with. Figuring out how to invalidate their Torchic/Reciever is interesting, much more so than Memento+Zigzagoon. It's also fun to make an "inferior" mon a terrifying sweeper after a Torchic Pass.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

I'd have to say not usually. If their first match is against that FullPass team, then I wouldn't be surprised if it made them stay away from LC for a while, but there aren't any players I know of who said they were leaving until BP was gone.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

I would say nerf it to one or two BP users per team. This eliminates the snowballing FullPass teams, without going whole hog and banning BP. Unlike OU either, this would be more than sufficient, as LC lacks an "extreme receiver" in Espeon.

 

[Camden]

Ah, I figured this would happen (I was counting up the votes after all). I'll make this short and sweet because long posts are shitty to read.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Baton Pass is not broken in Little Cup. While the theory is that BP is broken because it restricts teambuilding to insane levels (requiring WW/Roar/Haze/Clear Smog) that simply isn't true. Because of the fact that LC doesn't have a "Xatu" or "Espeon" to use, full BP teams have to work that much hard just to keep their presence going. Taunt/Encore become viable options to slowing/stopping a chain, and the aforementioned options still exist. On top of that, we have to look at the Pokemon commonly used on Full BP teams. Full BP teams are essentially forced to used underwhelming teammates such as Munna, Mime Jr., etc. because the niche they offer is almost exclusively used in that archetype. Not only that, they almost always need the protection from passed boosts to succeed in their jobs. There's also the whole factor of the 50/50s that arise from Turn 1. You're forced to run Torchic leads, and your opponent is more than likely going to have a check for it.

Also, quickpassing is nowhere near broken for obvious reasons.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

Not gonna lie, it's incredibly matchup-based...but so is every other matchup in this metagame. VoltTurn, Stall, Webs, BP, HO, Balance/Bulky Offense all have their advantages and disadvantages. BP has its own as well. With that in mind, it's not exactly the most fun match-up to fight against. You either stop the chain early on, or it gets set up and you either use some niche tool to deal with it or just power through, which isn't difficult but still frustrating. It definitely has a field day again more defensively-oriented teams, but teams that are more offensive can put a lot of pressure on them.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Possibly. BP is actually very difficult for lesser-skilled or knowledgeable players to get around because they aren't aware of what options to use at what time, and unlike some factors of LC that can be easier to understanding how to beat (how2punch Pawniard) BP takes a bit of practise because getting around a chain can be difficult and confusing at first. The first time I fought against a fullpass team I got my ass handed to me because I didn't play the match-up properly at all.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

Just limit BP to 1 per team. Quickpassing is a viable and perfectly balanced facet of the metagame, and while fullpass teams aren't necessarily broken, they're not fun to deal with. 1 BP per team allows other viable strategies to exist while still getting rid of the main threat it presents: FullPass teams.

 

[Tricking]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

No, it isn't. The difficulty to deal with it depends on matchup, but normally a good player has some answers to Baton Pass. I don't think it's broken because it gets stopped by Taunt, Encore and it can't deal with setup sweepers especially the ones with Sturdy-Juice. BP chains lose against priority moves, Knock Off spam and other moves which are very common in LC. The only thing that makes Baton Pass annoying is the number of 50/50 situations that it can produce (for example when you play against Encore Mime Jr. and generally against Torchic).

2) Is Baton Pass making LC not fun?

Well, you can be angry with every BP user because you can feel it uncompetitive and unskillful, but I've never heard anyone saying: "I don't play LC because of Baton Pass chains".

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Absolutely not because it's easy to deal with, but I some players could find it very annoying and not fun, but they won't stop playing LC due to this playstyle.

4) If there's a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

I don't think that Baton Pass deserves to be banned as a playstyle, but BP chains can be nerfed by reducing the number of Baton Pass users to one or two, in order not to avoid QuickPass from the tier.

 

[inscribe]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

No way. Baton Pass is a very underwhelming strategy. Baton Pass gets beaten by so many things that it's not even funny. Taunt / Encore users like Mienfoo and Cottonee help a lot in dealing with Baton Pass. Whirlwind and hazards like Toxic Spikes and Spikes help a lot in dealing with Baton Pass. Set up sweepers help a lot in dealing with Baton Pass. Basically a lot of common things help beat Baton Pass. Offense commonly runs Taunt Mienfoo or Encore / Taunt Cottonee, Balance runs powerful set up sweepers like Fletchling or things like Substitute Life Orb Gastly, and more stallish teams can run Whirlwind Hippopotas and Munchlax to ruin a chain after its been severely weakened after hazards; so I don't see how Baton Pass would be able to autowin against any type of decent team.
Baton Pass in LC just lacks the weapons OU Baton Pass had (Ingrain, Aqua Ring, Spore, Magic Bounce, etc.), so it really is lacking as a playstyle, and I would never recommend it.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

I don't really think so. All these teams are definitely becoming cancerous, but I don't really mind. As I stated previously, Baton Pass isn't difficult to handle at all with a decent team. I still enjoy Little Cup, and a mediocre strategy really isn't ruining that.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

No.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

I'm obviously against a Baton Pass ban, but if we did it, I would say limiting the amount of Baton Pass on one team to 3, as LC doesn't have things like GeoPass to ravage the tier, but with 3 mons per team, we don't cockblock teams that have things like TorchPass with Mienfoo on it, which are perfectly healthy.

 

[doomsday doink]

I'd just like to point out that most Quickpass teams are running two passers (usually Torchic and Mienfoo) so nerfing BP to one per team actually hinders Quickpass as well. Nerfing Baton Pass to two (maybe three) users per team seems like the most reasonable if we do decide BP needs to be limited.

 

[tko]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Not really, it depends on matchup, but then that goes for all playstyles. It does cause you to play a bit more aggressively, but unlike other playstyles, not having a bp check is what can lose you the game, unlike bird spam for ex. this just shows that bp is mainly reliant on team matchup, unlike most other playstyles. If you have taunt or haze or roar, usually you are good to go. but if you dont, you are more prone to make more aggresive plays to make sure that ur opponent dosent get off the bp.

2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

its rare so nah, ofc ppl do lose to this stuff, and become saltE and dont play for a while, but it dosent make lc not fun. Its not fun to play, sure, but it dosent make lc itself a tier people would hate.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

no, if they lose to bp, they would at most take a break and not play lc for a while, but it wouldnt make a person not ever want to play lc ever again. Its just like the other playstyles, if someone loses to volt turn or bird spam or hazard stacking, it wouldnt deter someone, it should just help them see what can be improved with the team.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

Baton pass chains, limiting only a certain amount of mons using bp(like 1 or 2).

 

[absdaddy]

imo leave non broken quickpass (1-3 users a team) strat alone. where is the actual suspect we wanted and why did i waste so much time on this

 

[The Avalanches]

I do not believe Baton Pass to be broken, but I understand that my opinion on the matter may be less qualified as others, as aside from the odd quick-passing Torchic here and there, I have faced probably less than five full Baton Pass teams ever. I have also never run Baton Pass myself, as I find its reliance upon factors outside of my control to be very unappealing.

Although I usually don't prepare a check for Baton Pass, altering your team if you do isn't terribly difficult. I'll fish up some stats on Baton Pass users later, but in my experience, it isn't something common enough to need a check for. It might not be fun if everybody were to run it, but that would more likely stem from monotony than uncompetitiveness.

More soon…

 

[boo836]

1) Is Baton Pass broken?

Absolutely not. Baton Pass can in no way be considered broken. It is a novelty playstyle that finds itself attempting to stay alive, racking up boosts over many turns in the face of offensive pressure, Haze, Encore, Clear Smog, and much more. Passers are not bulky, and are incapable of checking most offensive threats. Just as how BP was dealt with in previous metagames, placing immediate pressure on a chain is enough to beat it. Disrupting the chain with phazing, haze, and encore is an auto-win. Fletchling is a prominent sweeper that pressures chains, as is Carvanah. Win conditions on hyper offense like Zigzagoon, Shellder, and more will bring these teams down. Even if somehow you may consider a viable playstyle, there's no excuse when there are dozens of options available.



2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun?

I've never had fun playing against Baton Pass, but it's for the same reason I don't have fun playing against poorly constructed teams. In terms of the metagame as a whole, BP isn't used enough to make LC "not fun". Even so, banning BP for not being fun is against the spirit and purpose of these suspect tests.

I'd like to add that BP's matchup based outcomes are a myth. There is no reason why teams cannot prepare for BP, and any "matchup" based outcome is caused solely by poor team construction.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

It may deter new players if they aren't willing to learn how to beat Baton Pass chains. However, this is the fault of the players and is not a metagame issue.

4) If there is a Baton Pass ban, what exactly are we banning?

Hard to say, as quickpassing is a viable playstyle. Limiting Baton Pass chains to four Pokemon would limit the performance of a chain while still making quickpass or "halfpass" viable. That being said, there should not be a ban or a nerf whatsoever.

 

[gali]

long post incoming

 

[kingmidas]

Baton Pass:
Baton Pass in LC is most certainly not overly difficult to deal with; I don't think anybody is genuinely considering that. In fact, it's arguably not even that good; if you played a large number of games with a Baton Pass chain and then a large number of games with a team that is considered "standard", you would probably be able to win significantly more games with the standard team. If the opposing team packs Cottonee or Tauntfoo or Onix or Whirlwind variants of Hippo/lax, of course it's still possible to win, but unless you have one of the very specific Pokemon to beat said threat, you'll be fighting a very, very uphill battle. Furthermore, all of these are viable choices, and most teams can afford to fit at least one of them (offensively leaning teams can use Cottonee or Tauntfoo, and defensively leaning teams can run a phazer).

The issue here arises if you lack one of those four Pokemon, which isn't all that unreasonable; there are a lot of things Mienfoo wants to do with its fourth slot, or you might want to use a different Fighting-type. The other three Pokemon are somewhat difficult to fit onto the average team due to their very noticeable drawbacks; Cottonee's lack of reliable recovery and exploitable double weakness often renders it a shaky check to many threats that it's supposed to beat despite its overall excellent utility, Onix is weak, specially frail, is easily worn down, can really only do a few things that may not have much of an impact in the overall match, and simply isn't very good, and Whirlwind Hippopotas/Munchlax are a bit too slow and defensive to be able to fit onto teams that appreciate momentum. If you also lack something from a larger and more versatile pool of threats that is able to force a positive match-up against specific Pokemon that Baton Pass chains often lead with, then you're usually pretty much done for. Admittedly, this is a less reasonable situation now that Baton Pass has been established as a legitimate threat.

Examples of Pokemon that are able to beat certain Baton Pass leads but not others include Chinchou, which can severely threaten Torchic but struggles against Gothita, Shellder, who can Rock Blast Torchic but is taken out by Gothita, and Houndour, who traps Gothita but is Substitute bait for Torchic. In the case that the team facing Baton Pass runs one of these, turn one becomes a risky coinflip. If the Baton Pass user picks an unfavourable wrong lead, then a great deal of momentum is lost, the Baton Pass user might lose a key team member, and the chain will probably fall apart without it. However, if the Baton Pass user picks correctly, then the Baton Pass user gains a very large advantage over the opponent from the get-go, be it an important check being picked off or a free Substitute being set up, which will usually snowball into a situation where the Baton Pass chain cannot be stopped. Essentially, the game is decided on turn one, and that's neither competitive nor very fun.

The main difference between having to pack a check for Baton Pass chains and having to pack a check for other archetypes like Zigzagoon offense or Birdspam is that even if you do not have a dedicated check to Zigzagoon offense or Birdspam, you can still pull off a clean win by sufficiently pressuring the opponent's team and baiting out and removing their win conditions. On the other hand, if you lack a Baton Pass check and you're up against a Baton Pass chain, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose, bar factors that are irrelevant to decisions made by the players. Being forced to rely on hax or the Baton Pass user's misplays isn't at all a valid argument because it's completely out of the player's control, and frankly, an opponent who is unable to make the incredibly basic plays that Baton Pass requires to be effective in such a scenario will probably lose regardless of the team used. Because of how straight-forward using Baton Pass or fishing for hax is, both sides are more or less reduced to auto-pilot; little to no strategy is involved.

The best way to nerf Baton Pass would probably be just to limit the number of Baton Pass users per team to two or three. By preventing chains from running all of the tools they need to get around important impediments to the Stored Power sweep, the methods available to play around Baton Pass throughout the match increases dramatically, which makes fitting several effective Baton Pass checks onto a team much easier to do. Furthermore, because of the decrease in available stat passers on the team, Stored Power becomes less potent, turning the act of actually playing around the chain into a genuine possibility. This way, the much more legitimate Quickpass teams, where Torchic merely acts as a solid offensive support Pokemon, will still be available.

tl;dr Baton Pass deserves a nerf, not because it's too good, but because it has the tendency to decide the outcome of games too early for strategy to come into play, even against competent teams.

While I don't mean to bring up the git good argument/prediction argument because they tend to dissuade actual discussion and inhibit signs of theorymonning but its really the only way to explain some stuff.

First paragraph: Want as placeholder so it doesn't look like I skipped it on purpose because I agree with all of it.

Second Paragraph: You're greatly exaggerating the low amount of mons able to deal with baton pass, as heysup has said in the metagame discussion thread, stuff like fletchling or drilbur can set up alongside the baton pass team and win at +6 because its back to square 0, the moment where the teams had an equal chance but theres no more room for improvement for the bp team. Honestly it depends on your team but if you are weak to baton pass that badly, only takes a few adjustment to mitigate the issue. You cannot prepare for the unknown is how to describe early bp but even then naturally people ran some answers, now its even easier.

Third Paragraph: The ideas behind what you say are solid so not gonna go attack a reasonable argument calling it what its not but I have a few issues with it. 1) Houndour is not sub bait for torchic it just spams dark pulse after pursuit gothita. 2) Baton pass having to reboot midgame can have its advatanges if done correctly but usually it means you lost your switch in or BP reciver for certain threats and now it gets to break the team apart unless you let it get a sub up. Games are not won on turn 1 unless you let it happen or team matchup win which is pretty rare from what I've seen.

Fourth Paragraph: First part is basically what happens when you face offense, you gotta either slow their momentum or pressure them even harder, but when you lack a bp check its either a sign of bad teambuilding or you didn't take bp seriously. Not having a check to something usually ends in it being a huge threat, bp just amplifies it seeing as the whole team is based around it. Hax is the easy way out to put it short, if you're relying on hax you deserve to lose, if you do hax, well its pokemon and it'll make or break games.

Fun Edit ;D: macle we can suspect suspect nothing it means we cannot vote for suspecting nothing if we have one again :O.

 

[Clone]

This should be in OU lol. BP in LC is nothing more than a gimmick that takes very little effort to be unless you're 100% unprepared for it, which can actually be naturally done by there mere usage of offensive pressure. BP isn't OP here and I'm not entirely sure why so many people want it gone. Input from those ppl would be nice.

 

[kingmidas]

This should be in OU lol. BP in LC is nothing more than a gimmick that takes very little effort to be unless you're 100% unprepared for it, which can actually be naturally done by there mere usage of offensive pressure. BP isn't OP here and I'm not entirely sure why so many people want it gone. Input from those ppl would be nice.

Its clear it is more than a gimmick, otherwise it would never have been put up, its ignorant to believe it has no purpose even being brought up. Levi's post is pretty good and tahu (kopoka or something now) is writing one and he knows a lot about bp.

 

[boo836]

I don't understand why people are saying BP pressures an opponent. Versus offense, it's a time bomb to knock out appropriate mons. Versus defensive teams, you wall and phaze. There's no real pressure in just setting up boosts, it's a matter of what's done with them after. In bp's case, it is taking too many turns to set up, and as such is under constant pressure by competent players.

kingmidas BP is definitely a gimmick lol. It isn't a successful strategy against well made teams, and more or less wins through absurd means.

 

[fitzy72]

Good job LC on voting in a suspect almost no-one is arguing is actually broken.

1) Is Baton Pass broken?
No. A reliable baton pass team without huge weaknesses to threats seen on most teams simply isn't possible. I don't want to repeat what heysup has already plastered in the metagame thread but you can get maybe 50% win chance with flawless plays against decent teams not piloted by idiots. That is in no way even close to be broken.
SPLC teams says enough. If people believe it can actually get a good win-loss i'm sure we'd have seen more than the almost 0 BP teams.I know bringing something like BP is "frowned upon" but still.
2) Is Baton Pass making Little Cup not fun? It makes getting out of low ladder much less appealing
3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup? No
4) If there is a Baton Pass nerf, what exactly are we nerfing it? I don't want that.