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Suspect: Drilbur

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Ray Jay, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Welcome to this month's edition of the suspect test, featuring Drilbur. If you're confused about why this thread is up, refer to here.

    Drilbur is essentially the face of offensive sand. No good offensive sand team foregoes using Drilbur. It easily outpaces the entire unboosted metagame, and possesses massive Attack in conjunction with Swords Dance. Its movepool isn't shabby either, and includes some BW2 additions (Stealth Rock, Mold Breaker Rapid Spin). The question of Drilbur's place in LC has been challenged many a time (when PO still had LC, Drilbur was banned), with most critics pointing to the slot it all but necessitates on a team to counter it.

    This thread will serve as discussion for whether or not Drilbur is truly "broken" in today's metagame. Please note that the council has decided to put this thread up not because we think Drilbur is banworthy right this instant, but because we think it deserves a closer look.

    After the discussion and inspection period (which will last just under a month) here is finished, the council members will have a vote. For current council members, please refer here. Should a council member resign or be removed during this suspect period, a stand-in voting council member will be chosen based on thoughtful participation in this thread and the community in general.

    Things to Consider:
    • What aspects of Drilbur are relatively "balanced" when compared to other Pokemon? What parts are not?
    • Are Drilbur's counters (Bronzor, Shroomish) used solely to counter Drilbur?
    • It has been stated that with proper team support, certain variants of Swords Dance Drilbur are unbeatable. Is this true?
    • Is sand a common strategy because Drilbur is so good or because it is a good all around strategy.
    • Is Drilbur's fantastic variance in movepool a good thing for the metagame or a bad one?
    • Drilbur is one of the Pokemon that have forced Mienfoo to start running extremely defensive spreads, slowing down the pace of the metagame as Mienfoo is the most commonly used Pokemon. What significance does this have, and how different would a Drilbur-less metagame actually be?
  2. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
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    sure Drilbur is powerful but i wouldn't go so far as to say it is unstopable. Especially in todays Metagame Scarf Porygon has been on an increase and can trace Drilburs Sand Rush Thus outspeeding it. Foongus recently got released with Regenerator and functions much like Shroomish in the way that it can take a +2 attack from Drilbur Spore it then threaten with Giga Drain or switch out getting recovery from regen. Its old counters who are still quite common Scarf Snover and Bronzor can effectivly deal with it even if it has got a Swords Dance. Even if it does have a huge impact on sand teams sand teams are still pretty viable without it seeing as Sand gives Rock Types a 50% special defense increase helping out pokemon like Lileep and Tirtouga while the residaul damage in a tier that rarely carries Leftovers i good anyway. For these reasons i don't beleive Drilbur is ban worthy :)
  3. Gengan

    Gengan

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    Sure, drilbur is threatening in sand, but all you need is snover to negate that. Besides, drilburs performance outside of sand isn't too impressive.
  4. Nanoswine

    Nanoswine

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    Bronzor and Shroomish etc are not specialized counters to Drilbur. Bronzor also serves as a check to Krow, Dragons, Porygon, and many other Pokemon. Shroomish serves as a check to Chinchou, Staryu, Ferroseed, Tirtouga, etc. Sure there choices that can check individual mons from those lists better than Bronzor or Shroomish can, that doesn't mean that Bronzor and Shroomish usage can be attributed solely to Drilbur's presence. I don't carry any of these "specific" counters to Drilbur, and I still do fine against it as long as I keep up offensive pressure to prevent the opponent from stacking spikes.

    Drilbur is hardly unbeatable. Proper team support is never an argument for a Pokemon's tiering. Clamperl is impossible to beat with "proper team support" (removing / weakening checks and priority and providing a setup opportunity), but nobody cries that it's broken. Drilbur needs those same two things provided for it in order to sweep 100% of the time. In fact, as far as setting up a win condition goes, Scraggy requires far less support in order to sweep, and is arguably a better sweeper than Drilbur is.

    Drilbur is the face of sand, but I'm pretty sure that Sand teams wouldn't die out if it was banned. They would see a big drop in usage, but Hippopotas is a good mon, and it helps Rock types like Tirtouga set up. So I would say both Drilbur and Sand in general contribute to its success as a playstyle.

    I would hardly say Drilbur has a fantastic movepool, It basically has 6 usable moves. They are the moves that it needs to be effective, but if they weren't we wouldn't be having this discussion would we? Mold Breaker Drilbur as an option for a spinner is great for the metagame, and SD Drilbur having 2 options for a coverage move outside of EQ / Rock Slide isn't dangerous enough that we should call it's movepool bad for the metagame.

    It's true that Drilbur is one of the mons that cause Mienfoo to run defensive spreads, but even if it were banned Mienfoo would still go a defensive route because of Scraggy, Tirtouga, and other sweepers that it can easily check with defensive investment. A metagame without Drilbur would probably be a little more offensive because it would lower the usage of Bronzor and Grass-types, but it wouldn't knock Foo out of it's #1 spot in usage.

    I don't really thing Drilbur warrants a ban :/ There are far more threatening sweepers out there, like Scraggy, Shell Smashers, and Dratini. Even when I don't pack a counter to Drilbur, a shaky check is usually enough unless the opponent gets a load of spikes down, and that is a problem I have with Spikestacking, not Drilbur. I don't think removing it would be a healthy change for the metagame, because the loss of SD Drilbur would only cause a drop in Sand usage, Bronzor, and Grass types, while the loss of Mold Breaker Drilbur as a spinner basically forces teams that want a spinner to use Staryu. I'm not saying that's a bad change overall, but it's hardly necessary.
  5. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    It can easily be countered by priority, isn't much of a problem
  6. comatthew6

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    Not really. I used to use an eviolite set back in the day, and it could tank priority attacks while setting up swords dance. It wasn't KO'ed by most attacks (I need a calc on sucker murkrow on evio drilbur) but it could set up swords dance quite easily without sacrificing power.

    Now, Drilbur can function even better outside of sand because of mold breaker. Bronzor, once thought of as a hard counter to drilbur, now loses to it. The same thing goes for Koffing. Misdreavus is no longer safe, as it will be 2HKOed by earthquake (non eviolite). Lileep is 2HKOed by a CB x-scissor, drilbur's strongest attack against it. Murkrow can out stall with feather dance, but no one really uses the move anymore.

    There is no doubt drilbur is powerful. With 19 attack and up to 17 speed, it functions as an offensive beast. Doubling speed in sand easily allows it to hit 30 or 32. Its movepool might not be great, but it gets the job done. Earthquake and Rock Slide are nasty together, and X-Scissor and Shadow Claw are pretty solid coverage moves. Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin are not bad either, now giving Drilbur a support role on teams - not limiting it to offense.

    This being said, it's not invincible and it's not perfect - not in the least. As Nanoswine said, it does have checks, and without proper support, it can't sweep effectively. CB Drilbur is rare, and without it, it falls short of outright 2HKOing Lileep (2HKO with stealth rock). In addition, Porygon fares well with ice beam and choice scarf would beat it, but wouldn't be able to recover health.

    I'm watching football but long story short drilbur ain't broken. I have A LOT of time with this Pokemon and I know it's not broken.
  7. viashinomage

    viashinomage

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    That's basically saying sand or hail: pick your poison.

    Anywho: Scarf porygon(easily my favorite pokemon right now) is a clear choice to counter drilbur it outpaces him and 2HKOs at full health (full calcs tomorrow). not to mention unboosted drilbur fails to return the favor. once again a full analysis of this matchup tomorrow
  8. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Terrible moveslot syndrome and very obvious viable counters. I don't think too much more can be said. Double Sand Rush on the other hand.....
  9. Lord of the Fireflies

    Lord of the Fireflies

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    Agreeing with Heysup; if something is broken, it's Sandstream + Sand Rush. Drilbur alone is manageable, as it is weak to two forms of priority, annihilated by Snover and Porygon, and taken out by bulky mons like Mienfoo and Lileep that can tank a hit and retaliate.

    It also doesnt help that it got a new check in Prankster Riolu, which 2HKOs with some prior damage and a double Drain Punch.
  10. thesynchrohero

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    drilbur is not broken if you use a pokemon like bronzor with rain dance in my opnion because it suddenly finds sand gone
  11. Lord of the Fireflies

    Lord of the Fireflies

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    ...and back again when Hippo shows up. The thing with SS is that it's so easy to keep up if you play the hippo intelligently. Moreover, Bronzor doesnt exactly have bunches of free moveslots for Rain Dance.
  12. Gengan

    Gengan

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    No one uses Rain Dance Bronzor. In fact, no one smart uses Rain in LC. Take that shit to OU boys.

    Sandstream + Sand Rush isn't broken. It just has sweepers that can actually use it. Snow Warning gets no sweepers that actually benefit from hail since most Ice-types in LC are... meh.
  13. Phazon00

    Phazon00

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    I would say Drilbur is extremely powerful, and is certainly centralizing. But, does that mean it is Ban-worthy?

    -Drilbur does have many counters (Bronzor, ScarfPorygon, Cacnea) but those can be eliminated with good support. That is why it is a lategame sweeper.

    -Opposing weather (Namely Snover) is a problem. Drillbur loses all of its sweeper-ness (totally a word) when it loses it's precious sand.

    Overall, I say Drilbur Should Not be Banned.
  14. MarceloDK

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    Exactly.

    Looking singly to Drilbur, we can say he’s not broken for various reasons. First, Bronzor and Shroomish are true counters that are not used only to kill Drilbur. Second, Snover. Third, PorygonScarf serves as a revenge killer/check, this, I admit that is really situational, but appeared specifically to stop double rush, not only Drilbur. Fourth, prioritys and Foongus help checking him.

    Now analyzing Drilbur + Sandshrew. One can weaken Bronzor/Shroomish/priority users to the other sweep easily. Snover and PoryScarf aren’t going to have much time to enter (specially with SR). Probably the opponent will sacrifice a pokémon to let PoryScarf enter, and even so you can simply switch to an ice resist/special wall. Snover doesn’t likes to enter in rock slides/x-scissors/SR, and even entering, he isn’t going to take care since they can switch to a check/counter. Also, Wynaut can destroy both. My point is, Hippo + Drilbur + Sandshrew + water and ice resist/wynaut/munchlax/lileep/eo’s mum + 2 fillers, is nearly uncounterable and centralizes completely the metagame.

    Although, analyzing the options to resolve the “double rush problem” without complex bans: ban Drilbur, ban Sand Stream, ban Hippo, band Sand Rush, banning Drilbur seems like the best option to not lose SS, that is extremely good for the Metagame, we don’t even lose sands offense, since Sandshrew is taking the place that Drilbur occupied in BW1 LC.

    So, I’m in favor of banning Drilbur, not because he is broken alone, but because he turns Double rush teams possible, and those teams are overpowered imo.
  15. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I'm a little bit confused, to be honest. People are claiming Drilbur alone isn't broken because it has checks such as Snover, which completely eliminates the weather it is dependent on. Meanwhile, the same people are saying double rush is broken. The thing is, if you are using double rush, aren't you opening yourself up even more to a Snover weakness? Snover now beats 3 of your Pokemon rather than just 2. Furthermore, neither Sandshrew nor Drilbur can weaken Choice Scarf Snover as they are always forced out or OHKOed.

    Next, blarajan pointed out to me (and I agree) how important type balancing is in LC; is a team strategy that opens one up to weaknesses to Lileep, Staryu, and plenty of other mons truly "broken" or simply something that surprisingly works? I think it's more of the latter; it works, but I frankly haven't seen the incredible decimation of double rush in the manner it's being professed in this thread.
  16. MarceloDK

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    Wynaut can trap and kill Snover. Stuff like Munchlax, Ponyta and Larvesta can switch in it all time, ofc more mons can switch since scarf is locked in a move, etc. The point is: you has Hippo (SR), and 2 mons that outspeeds nearly all the metagame (both loses to ScarfPory and Sandshrew loses to 19 scarfs) and are too powerfull and can SD. Ok, 3 ice/water/grass weakness, but lol, you has more 3 slots on your team. You can fill that slots with iwg resists, priority users checks, WYNAUT, PoryScarf/Snover counters, or whatever you want to support your double rush core.

    I believe you can't see the "incredible decimation" of double rush because people still can't explore its full potential.
  17. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    I can't see the "incredible decimation" of double rush because it's not present.
  18. comatthew6

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    I shall prove thee wrong...when I decide to finish my team. This may or may not take awhile.

    This being said, I have seen it before. In capable hands, it is quite destructive, but I have yet to see it in capable hands.

    EDIT: Finally have a team! It's half decent!
  19. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    You're immensely over simplifying the effect of Sandshrew + Drilbur by saying it is now "just more weak to Snover" and assuming the same counters apply. Snover is not only "not" a counter specifically to Drilbur (it can't safely switch in) but it is not the only (or even best) way of dealing with Drilbur. There are shit load of Pokemon (shroomish, Bronzor, Turtwig, Misdreavus, Mienfoo, Timburr, etc) that deal with Drilbur simply by being bulky and/or having priority. Drilbur simply can't sweep reliably as it once did before (and I'm talking WAYYYYYY back when, before people understood Eviolite).

    Now, with Sandshrew, all of those Pokemon that I mentioned now fail not only to counter Drilbur or Sandshrew (usually one or the other) but some of them are straight up set up bait for Sandshrew. In fact, now assuming Snover is only real way to reliably beat the pair is much more accurate (these two still have certain random combos they have trouble with sort of). That's why it's such a strong combination. If you look at any strategy with very specific counters, you know exactly which Pokemon you need to beat it. For example, with Double Rush as long as you carry Wynaut, Munchlax (Pursuit trap plz), Tentacool (won't last long with Toxic Spikes etc), even Houndour (pursuit + resists everything) or Magnemite you do not have to worry about Snover.

    I've been using Double Rush and I've lost like twice in like 30+ games and those were hax losses etc (my record will probably say something like 7-8 losses...the extra ones are all disconnects that for some reason I can't rejoin). If you build your team well around it, it's really stupidly hard to beat unless you happen to carry like 4 separate sand rush counters to the point that Sandshrew / Drilbur can't break through all of them - which I have seen and still Toxic Recover-stalled my way to victory with Lileep :).

    I'm not actually sure it's broken, but I just wanted to point out the actual effect of doubling up. I'd also like to remind people that low usage =/= not broken.
  20. Elevator Music

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    Posting to say that Heysup is correct on the merits of doubling up. That being said, the handful of times I've played against Double Rush I've never found it too ridiculous. I can't really explain why (I've used a variety of teams, obviously ones with Snover don't have huge issues even though Wynaut is lame), but it probably has to do with the fact that running Hippopotas+Sandshrew+Drilbur only leaves 3 slots to cover everything else (like Murkrow and Misdreavus, and every Pokemon that those three lack the ability to switch in to or stay in on).

    As for Drilbur itself, I don't think it's broken. Without Eviolite it's very weak to priority (Murkrow, Tirtouga, Mienfoo), but with Eviolite it just falls short on a lot of important KOes.

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