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Suspect: Murkrow

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Ray Jay, Sep 5, 2012.

  1. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Welcome to this month's edition of the suspect test, featuring Murkrow. If you're confused about why this thread is up, refer to here.

    Murkrow has long been a shady Pokemon in LC. In DPP, it was considered broken and banned before it even got Brave Bird in Platinum. In BW, it was also banned, but re-introduced to the metagame in February along with Misdreavus and Gligar. Many players still share concerns over Murkrow in today's metagame due to its fantastic movepool, stat spread, and even STABs, to an extent.

    This thread will serve as discussion for whether or not Murkrow is truly "broken" in today's metagame. Please note that the council has decided to put this thread up not because we think Murkrow is banworthy right this instant, but because we think it deserves a closer look.

    After the discussion and inspection period (which will last just under a month) here is finished, the council members will have a vote. For current council members, please refer here. Should a council member resign or be removed during this suspect period, a stand-in voting council member will be chosen based on thoughtful participation in this thread and the community in general.

    Things to Consider:
    • What aspects of Murkrow are relatively "balanced" when compared to other Pokemon? What parts are not?
    • With some Flying-type resistances now having pseudo reliable recovery, such as Chinchou with Rest / Heal Bell and Eviolite Archen with Roost, is Murkrow as big of a threat as it once was?
    • Does Murkrow suffer enough from 4 move-slot syndrome to keep it from being a "broken" late game sweeper?
    • Does Murkrow rely enough on team support (Rapid Spin, hazards) that an effective Murkrow is a sign of an effective team rather than an overpowered Pokemon?
    • Are Murkrow's different sets truly varied enough that it beats its typical counters to one set by running another (think AcroBat Gligar and Baton Pass Gligar)?
    • What is Murkrow's role in checking Misdreavus? Would Misdreavus be broken in a Murkrow-less metagame?
  2. Trakyan

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    Roost archen with eviolite doesnt seem viable to me, just saying.
    Anyways, doesnt life orb krow 2HKO the whole metagame between brave bird, dark pulse, heat wave and hidden power grass(for chinchou) not counting aron/sheildon/nosepass in sand?
    Thats without hazard support im pretty sure so add in a staryu and.... As for 'it will die from recoil' im going to bring up someone elses response, that implies it has done alot of damage with brave bird or in general used alot of attacks which are sure to leave a mark.

    And common priority users (croagunk, mienfoo, timburr, snover etc.) cant switch in safely if at all.
  3. Gengan

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    Murkrow's stats are a bit shady. Even eviolite murkrow is strong enough to deal damage. Plus, chinchou has been seen to die coming into a brave bird and then taking a sucker punch. Anything that can 2HKO its own resistances is a problem.
  4. spuds4ever

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    It's been a while since I made a decent post in LC, so here we go.

    Things to Consider:

    [*]What aspects of Murkrow are relatively "fair" when compared to other Pokemon? What parts are not?

    Ok, first question. Murkrow has quite a few "fair" aspects I think to balance its excellent traits which I'll come to later. Firstly, it's bulk is really not that great and combined with a SR weakness, really limits what it can switch-in on in the tier, especially LO mixkrow. On the other side, it has the strongest priority move in the tier, as well as the strongest mixed attacking stats in the tier by far pretty much. This makes it extremely dangerous offensively and, thanks to its recovery, if you haven't carefully prepared for it, it WILL sweep you. In short, its offensive capabilities turns murkrow into the best revenge-killer and the best wallbreaker in the tier WITH THE SAME SET. That is pretty huge in itself, and I'll come back to this later.

    [*]With some Flying-type resistances now having pseudo reliable recovery, such as Chinchou with Rest / Heal Bell and Eviolite Archen with Roost, is Murkrow as big of a threat as it once was?

    Rest-talk chou I've found to be extremely good in this metagame, and with porygon being as popular as ever, I don't think murkrow, at least its subroost set, is actually too hard to deal with. Still very dangerous, but you often don't have to go far out of your way to prepare for it. You can fit bulkychou or porygon on to pretty much every team, so while this may be a little over-centralizing to some, I don't think that's it's too imbalanced to call for a ban.

    [*]Does Murkrow suffer enough from 4 move-slot syndrome to keep it from being a "broken" late game sweeper?

    4MSS isn't really an issue for murkrow except for its FD CM set which despises toxic and isn't as good as it was in a now more balanced metagame where toxic is common. I think it makes very good use of its 4 move slots, but it is true that it severly curbs what it can and can't do. LOkrow can be stopped from sweeping just by carrying a fake out or extreme speed user (especially the first) and seeing how hard it is to switch LOkrow in, I really don't think it's an imbalanced cleaner.

    [*]Does Murkrow rely enough on team support (Rapid Spin, hazards) that an effective Murkrow is a sign of an effective team rather than an overpowered Pokemon?

    Murkrow needs support, but I find it usually offers more to its team than it requires. I.e, a great revenge killer and wall breaker/bulky sweeper, two roles you can't really put on any other pokemon at the same time.

    [*]Are Murkrow's different sets truly varied enough that it beats its typical counters to one set by running another (think AcroBat Gligar and Baton Pass Gligar)?

    No, and I think that is probably the turning factor here. Murkrow can run several sets, but every set is seriously going to dislike chinchou, porygon, and toxic pretty much. The only major exception here is LOkrow with BB which can get around porygon, however LOkrow has its own flaws which I outlined earlier and really doesn't last long if you use BB.

    [*]What is Murkrow's role in checking Misdreavus? Would Misdreavus be broken in a Murkrow-less metagame?

    Murkrow is pretty much an insurance that missy won't sweep you, even if you mispredict a couple of times or lose speed ties, burned brave birds and sucker punches will knock it into KO range for a lot of scarfers or bulky mon like lileep or porygon. Honestly, I think missy would be broken without murkrow, and possibly drilbur would be too. I think murkrow is a really great mon, possibly the best in the tier, but every set has strict limits that should be possible to bring to the table to every decently built team.
  5. Nanoswine

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    I love having Murkrow in the meta, but it is nigh unstoppable if you play it correctly. Every one of it's sets is totally different and for the most part require different checks. The only shared checks between Mixkrow, Subroost, and Scarf are Restalk Chinchou, Roost Archen, and Nosepass afaik. Chinchou runs into problems switching in multiple times, as it is very easy to force it out before it can wake up by bringing in Lileep or something of the sort, so it gets worn down by repeated switch-ins. Archen is alright, but it is also pretty easy to force out and then you end up at Defeatist HP. Nosepass is probably the best, but nobody uses Nosepass.

    Krow doesn't suffer from 4MSS at all. It has a lot of options (BB, SP, HW, Roost, Sub, HP Grass, etc) but there is no one set that wishes it could run all of them.

    Murkrow absolutely does not require team support to be effective. My team that has been at #1 for a while now doesn't have SR or Rapid Spin, but Scarf Krow still does work in every battle. In fact, it's so effective that I like to call it my mid-game cleaner because I am very often able to set up a sweep early on! All it takes is having Chinchou or another check low enough on HP that BB will 2HKO, then Krow can just wreck anything that comes in after that until it dies from BB recoil.

    Like I said before, Krow shares a few checks between all of it's sets. The big offender when it comes to beating the checks of other sets is LO Mixkrow. If you have been to all of the teambuilding sessions, you will notice that in every single one, we have at some point said "We have trouble dealing with Mixkrow," and had to make major changes to the team we had so far to try and deal with it. I for one, am glad that it isn't used very often because unless you are packing a very specific check (there are no counters), you cannot avoid losing at least 1 Pokemon to Mixkrow. Pokemon such as Magnemite, Bronzor, and Tirtouga that wall most of Krow's other sets get demolished by LO Heat Wave or HP Grass. So really, just the existence of that set extensively limits teambuilding options, to the point that you need 2 checks to Krow on your team if you want to stand a chance against MixKrow.

    Using Krow to check Missy is always very risky, and unless you are running Scarf and can KO with BB, you are always in danger of being burned. You never want to be in a situation where your check can either kill it's target or end up burned with it's target behind a sub, depending on how you predict the opponent will move. Missy has plenty of checks outside of Krow, so I wouldn't say it would be broken at all.
  6. v

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    Try using Munchlax if you have problems with Krow, it survives whatever Krow can toss at it and hits really hard. If you show it Focus Punch against a Sub or whatever else, you can Return at it all day because Roosting suddenly becomes risky. Featherdance Krow is really rare these days, and that's the only one that can take Munchy one-on-one, but people don't realize Lax will plow through Krow. Plus, BB v Munchy results in a lot of lost HP for Krow.

    Basically any Shellder can also Icicle Spear it as well, including the SubKrow variants.

    I think banning Murkrow would be both stupid and a mistake. It is just a versatile Pokemon, maybe the best in the tier, but it's a far cry from broken. I also think "fairness" is a ridiculous metric to use in banning a Pokemon. The only reason a Pokemon should be banned is if the Pokemon in question is raping teams single-handedly with little to no outside support.

    In regards to "limit teambuilding options," I have been using the same team for a long time, since right after Krow was unbanned. It still works, despite new sets having popping up since I built the team. Murkrow isn't some magic mon that can suddenly autocounter everything that stops it because it swapped out a move. The most threatening thing I've seen a Murkrow do is fully paralyze a Pokemon 4 turns in a row. Probably the most telling fact that indicates that Murkrow is not broken, though, is that Mienfoo has remained #1 throughout Murkrow's tenure in LC. Murkrow is one of the few Pokemon that can outright OHKO Mienfoo without boosting anything. If Murkrow were imbalancing and dominating the game, Mienfoo wouldn't even be in the top 10 because it's OHKOed by the boogeyman.

    Murkrow isn't the boogeyman like Speed Boost Carvanha or Drought Vulpix were. It's just a pretty good Pokemon.
  7. Nanoswine

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    Unless you are running a physically defensive spread on Munchlax (why), it is 2HKO'd by BB. Shellder is likewise 2HKO'd 96% of the time. Krow doesn't switch in on anything with U-Turn, so the only way they beat Murkrow is if you bring them in to revenge, and if that's the case Krow has already taken down one of your Pokemon and can just switch out and do it again later in the game. If you don't pack Chinchou / Archen / Rock type in the sand, then you will lose at least one Pokemon to Krow, and if you don't bring one of them plus something else that can tank BB then it is very easy for your opponent to set up a win condition. And this isn't even Mixkrow, who is practically impossible to switch in on safely. I know this from lots of experience both using Murkrow and playing against it.
  8. Gengan

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    236Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Murkrow (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 0HP/52Def lvl 5 Chinchou (Neutral): 54% - 66% (13 - 16 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    236Atk Life Orb lvl 5 Murkrow (Neutral) Sucker Punch vs 0HP/52Def lvl 5 Chinchou (Neutral): 79% - 91% (19 - 22 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Chinchou is only good at countering Murkrow if it's scarfed or if you can trick the opponent out of using Sucker Punch after it's used Brave Bird. Otherwise, Chinchou's going down.
  9. Danilo

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    That calc doesn't seem factual at all. Did you account for Eviolite, maximum or near maximum HP, or the fact that Chinchou resists Brave Bird?
  10. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    252 Atk Murkrow Brave Bird vs 0 HP/52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 29.17% - 37.5% (3-4 hits to KO)

    252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Brave Bird vs 0 HP/52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 37.5% - 45.83% (3 hits to KO)

    252 Atk Life Orb Murkrow Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 54.17% - 66.67% (2 hits to KO)

    I don't know where you got your calcs. Furthermore, Chinchou are frequently bulkier than just 52 Defense. I don't know...HP investment????
  11. Gengan

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    I used it against the Choice Scarf set ._. So whatever EVs were on the on-site Scarf analysis were the ones I used.
  12. iss

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    Confirming that blarajan's calcs are correct.

    Murkrow really suffers from having to choose between power or longevity; without Life Orb (most notably Eviolite SubRoost), it can be devastating, but many things can take Brave Bird + Sucker Punch. I still feel Eviolite SubRoost is an amazing set, and it is really hard to take down if you lack a solid counter such as Porygon or Chinchou. However, that's assuming that the Murkrow is played correctly, which is actually surprisingly difficult to do. Prediction is really important for SubRoost sets, and prediction is certainly difficult.

    With Life Orb, Brave Bird is ridiculously monstrous, but Murkrow ends up killing itself too quickly. Again, it is mostly prediction. MixKrow can 2HKO nearly everything in the metagame if it predicts correctly. The problem is that almost all teams in Little Cup will have a resist for Brave Bird, a resist for Heat Wave, and a resist for Hidden Power Grass. MixKrow doesn't have nearly enough power to punch through something like, say, Bronzor if it doesn't predict and use Heat Wave on the switch. Brave Bird wrecks everything, but it is relatively easy to absorb Brave Birds with something that resists or can heal off the damage, such as Porygon or Slowpoke, and simply allow Murkrow to kill itself through Stealth Rock, Brave Bird recoil, Life Orb recoil, and possible hail or sand.

    Other Murkrow sets are pretty gimmicky. Parafusion Murkrow however is definitely viable and I'd advise you to never use it. Murkrow really isn't that broken; if Eviolite is scouted, there are many straight-up counters, while if Life Orb is scouted, it becomes an uphill prediction battle for the Murkrow player.
  13. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I'm not sure where the other Murkrow thread is, I guess I haven't really searched for it but I have probably 30 posts of reasoning why Murkrow is actually broken.

    I kind of laugh every time I see an Eviolite Murkrow. Hippopotas can't even reliably take 2 Life Orb Brave Birds, while it lolstalls Eviolite that tickles. Lileep only takes 43% from non Life Orb variants.

    I can almost assure you most people who don't see Eviolite as an equal option as Life Orb will agree that you simply can't safely deal with it. You seriously just spam Brave Bird because everything faster is KOed besides like Magnemite and basically everything slower is 2HKOed by Brave Bird + Return/Heat Wave. If you're relying on Murkrow to counter something, you're simply and factually under utilizing it.

    Similar to Gligar, the less effective niche sets (that are still good, obviously) mostly just serve as a huge versatility factor when dealing with Murkrow, for example "oh shit I don't want to let it get a Substitute / Calm Mind / Feather Dance / Roost /etc on me I better attack etc".

    To people that say "Life Orb just KOes itself".....I mean I don't need to say much that's an absolutely atrocious argument. But I'll use it at least as a starting point for this specific argument. The major (and obvious, at least to me) flaw with this argument is that it implies incorrectly that something that KOes itself is not possibly broken. Sorry, but then I'll use Pokemon X that KOes itself after KOing 6 of your Pokemon because by that logic my Pokemon X is not broken because it KOes itself. No, I'm sure you see how ridiculous that sounds. Murkrow is clearly not as good as Pokemon X that I made up, but the principle still stands. Just think about this one thing for a second. If Murkrow has done enough HP damage to itself to contribute substantially to KOing itself with Brave Bird, it has done three times that amount of damage to the opponent. What on earth can take a couple attacks from Murkrow? If Murkrow KOes itself from Stealth Rock and 2-3 Brave Birds, that means you've KOed at least two Pokemon with the possibility of 3. Keep in mind, you have access to moves like Heat Wave and Sucker Punch to only take 10% of your HP off and giving you more opportunities to use Brave Bird as your last attack. The fact that Murkrow can't feasibly KO more than 4 Pokemon with Brave Bird does not mean it's not broken. The fact that Murkrow tends to kill itself by doing that much damage only serves to strengthen Murkrow's case for being too good.

    In one sentence, Murkrow is the only Pokemon who is fast enough, strong enough, and has a fitting enough move pool to simply run through teams with no set up.
  14. prem

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    Murkrow is probably the most "broken" pokemon we have in our metagame. i honestly dont really see the use of any eviolite krow but i guess tahts because like heysup said, i just love spamming that brave bird

    the only way to legitmately get around lo krow is a scarfer that resists sucker punch, or something that can take one hit and ohko back. there is no such thing as switching into murkrow because it fucking literally 2hkos everything. me and nails have tried finding SO many pokemon that can switch in, and while there are a few (archen is literally the best option), if you add in stealth rock its just unbeatable without priority to force it to use sucker punch.

    i dont even care about the niche sets that he has because honestly those dont threaten nearly as much and are all counterable (subroost krow isnt that hard to beat because things like staryu and stuff now take a hit)

    i also agree about heysups arguement about it killing itself. idgaf if it kills itself if it kills 2 mons you have. it gives you an instant advantage just because it came in on that free switch from foongus, or that death, and then something will fucking die. theres nothing that will stop something from dying because lo krow will deal shittons to anything that switches in.

    munchlax isnt very amazing of a counter because it needs to come in after something dies, ad if you have hazards and other stff its not that bad to wear down. though shellder is guaranteed one switchin not thinknig of crits.

    this probably sounds like i want to ban murkrow, which i really dont want to because i love murkrow in this metagame (so honestly my vote is still a 50/50), but anyone who denies that murkrow gives a team an instant advantage isnt really using murkrow right..
  15. spuds4ever

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    While it is true that murkrow 2hkoes everything in the tier with its LO set, I think we are forgetting just how frail LO krow is. Firstly, it is very difficult to safely switch it in and there's really no point in getting it in on anything that it can't OHKO as the other pokemon will almost certainly OHKO it or in things like hippo's case, phaze it out for more SR damage.

    So what can murkrow realistically safely switch in on in the metagame? Hippo works, but only if it doesn't roar, shroomish (and that's really common), and misdreavus which isn't carrying will-o-wisp or thunderbolt (which is not many tbh). Hell, you can't even safely switch in on foongus for fear of a sludge bomb.

    Of course, you can use the argument that you can get it in via volturn, but that is already suggesting a fair ammount of team support and there aren't really many slow volt-switchers or u-turners in the tier.

    Also, bear in mind, that there are an awful lot of things in LC which murkrow can't OHKO and that for many things, you have to predict perfectly to 2hko as it switches in like rest-talk chou and I think that's demanding quite a lot when you see that pretty much any misprediction on a switch will likely wind you up with a dead murkrow. And honestly, it's not that difficult to force out. Fake out is a great way to force it out and just priority in general. I know its very powerful, but I think we have to remember that it is extremely frail if it's using LO and we must remember how much more dangerous drilbur and misdreavus will become if murkrow is banned.
  16. prem

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    things that can take a lot of murkrow hits dont really ohko murkrow back lol. restalk chinchou scald doesnt ohko forsure, most bulky steels that arent magnemite dont deal damage to it. phazing is cool i guess but a hippo with half its health isnt something thats hard to kill with nything else on the team.

    murkrow can come in on foongus (sludge bomb wont kill), shrromish, if you know giga drain is coming, missy, bronzor, ferro if you know what you are doing, abra, lileep, natu, and some chinchou. thats a good enough list for something that has literally no defense. and either way just coming in on the switch and having a free kill is enough for it t o be amazing.

    the problem is murkrow can OHKO many many things, and is faster than basically everything. things that dont get ohkoed are bulky and generally weak, and even if they beat murkrow i can use that for a scraggy sweep. priority is an issue for krow, but literally the only things that use fake out are gunk and mienfoo, and then priority from faster pokemon because sucker punch shits on them.

    also dont think how the metagame will be if murkrow gets banned because that has no relevance on murkrow's brokeness
  17. Gengan

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    Chinchou OHKO's with Thunderbolt though...

    I still say that Murkrow isn't broken and should just be left alone. It's just a really good Pokemon.
  18. KingTorterraXIV

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    I really would say that Murkrow really isn't broken, more-so...uh I don't knoiw what the word is, but it requires probably the most thought to get around it on a general basis. Murkrow is really really powerful, but if you kill yourself faster than the opponent does... that kinda sucks. Anything that can live through its variety of attacks, can usually kill it (i.e Resttalk Chinchou [HP Grass does like 35%], or Eviolite Archen])

    I don't think Murkrow is broken, it's just a good Pokemon (and I couldn't think of how the meta would be if it got banned)
  19. Heysup

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    If Chinchou isn't Eviolite Restalk it takes too much from Brave Bird + Sucker Punch to effectively counter it (I don't think it even survives that combo). If you're using Restalk Thunderbolt + Scald well, you're probably the only one doing that.
  20. Lord of the Fireflies

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    I've been using RestTalk Chinchou. A lot. And while it is a very reliable counter to Murkrow, it is also very weak to other common stuff. Lileep easily sets up SR, Stockpile or Barrier as Chinchou switches out, or deals surprisingly good amounts of damage to the switch-in (Giga Drain deals around 40% damage to bulky Mienfoo). Missy takes little damage from Discharge and Scald, can set up Calm Mind / Nasty Plot and Heal Bell away status, as well as using Pain Split to prey on Chinchou's large HP. Chinchou is weak to virtually every Grass-type (including Ferroseed, which then Stealth Rock and Spikes like there's no tomorrow, further increasing the damage Chinchou will take on the next switch-in. Because yeah Chinchou is weak to all hazards). Running Resttalk also reduces Chinchou's possibilities on a moveset, and one have to make a choice between Discharge, Scald and Heal Bell. Without Scald, you get rolled over by Ground-types (like Drilbur, who is veeeery common, and Diglett, which traps and kills). Without Discharge, you actually get beaten by the Calm Mind variant (which is actually more than viable) and rolled over by many things Chinchou should be beating like Shell Smashers and water-types in general. Without Heal Bell, it becomes quite unreliable. Chinchou is abused by so many things its not hard for an intelligent Murkrow player to switch out to a counter and come in later, when residual damage has racked up, to KO chinchou with HP Grass or Sucker Punch.

    Chinchou is indeed the only true and viable counter to Murkrow (laaaaaaawl Eviolite Archen and Nosepass), but it has so many things to check and needs reliable recovery so badly it just becomes shaky in the long run. Besides, pretty much every team not running it will have problems with Murkrow, or will be forced to use shit like Occa Magnemite (using it in a metagame where murkrow is gone is completely ridiculous), discouraging variety and imagination.

    Murkrow is not unbeatable, but it is strong enough for me to think the metagame would be healthier with it gone.

    EDIT: Oh and I didn't even mention Prankster Sub and Roost.
  21. prem

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    ill probably make a better post later about this but eviolite archen is actually a very good mon that also checks things like croagunk and mienfoo so people need to stop bashing it lol
  22. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Sweet, you have 5 other team slots to use. You don't have a spinner or Natu? You shouldn't be using RT Chinchou. You don't have a missy counter? Your team is probably silly. The list goes on. Murkrow is powerful enough that using a Pokemon such as RT Chinchou that counters it (and Chinchou has other uses lol... stop making it sound like RT Chinchou does nothing. It pairs well with Mienfoo for annihilating Larvesta, for example, and also checks Drifloon, another problem Poke) is viable.

    As for why you're ragging on Eviolite Archen, I'm not entirely sure why you think that's OK or how many times you've used it, but it's a legit set. Murkrow literally has no options against you, and eventually will wear itself out via recoil damage. Furthermore, if you can get out of Defeatist range and force a switch, you either get free SR or a free hit on the opponent, which is pretty sweet coming from Archen's stats.

    As for your argument that Murkrow is somehow broken because it makes Occa Magnemite a thing, I'm not really sure why this is relevant. Metagaming in Pokemon is the process by which you find checks for things that need checks. An unorthodox set isn't a sign of overcentralization, and a worthwhile, niche set is actually a sign of a good / creative playerbase, as we should be encouraging diversity in the metagame to a point.
  23. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I think he was more concerned with the fact that Restalk Chinchou is set up bait for threats that are more dangerous than Murkrow after a set up, even if they are not as powerful without set up, some Pokemon can be ridiculous after just one turn as I'm sure we all know. It's simple to see that using a Pokemon to counter a threatening Pokemon and get out of a bad situation is not nearly as useful if there is another threatening Pokemon that can set up on it to create a just-as-bad or worse situation. I mean, Chinchou is set up on by basically anything with decent bulk, at least neutral to water, and a set up move....which is an assload of Pokemon.

    I would also like you to consider that overcentralization and creativity are not mutually exclusive. Metagaming is fine, and Occa Magnemite is not the sole reason people think Murkrow is broken, but it's a Pokemon that is significantly weakening itself just to be one of the only ways to somewhat deal with Murkrow. I mean it's not even that reliable - it's vulnerable to prediction too.
  24. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    just saying no one should be using occa magnemite when eviolite reduces the damage by just about the same amount and isnt a one time thing and gives it more overal bulk and not just heat wave protection
  25. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Yeah, this makes a little bit more sense to me. I agree with almost all of this argument; however, I have to ask, why is Murkrow consistently lower than expected on the stats (currently at #5, which I believe is the highest we've ever seen it)? At first, we kinda chalked it up to Murkrow needing a lot of team support, but I'm not necessarily sure I still believe that. What do you guys think?

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