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Announcement SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by Haunter, Feb 22, 2014.

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  1. Caliber Champ

    Caliber Champ

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    Prankster/swagger/twave combo should not be banned. It is highly strategic. Swagger has great synergy with foul play and twave also with ditto on the team. Its supposed to be a table turner move to change momentum of a battle. Even without swagger and prankster good players will still lose to less skilled players due to an important miss or an unfortunate critical hit. If you used more creative pokemon like wish and heal bell umbreon you wouldn't have a problem with swagplay prankster. Stop relying on cookie cutter builds that ignore anti swag play tactics. Every team should have at least one good counter to swagplay.

    If swagger and prankster bothers smogon so much find middle ground and only allow one prankster pokemon used per team. I know you guys are loving the thrill for proposing all these BS bans. Smogon is the Ghetsis of pokemon.
  2. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Ban Swagger, Flatter, Confuse Ray, and Supersonic under a Confusion Clause, as well as any virtually synonymous moves I might've forgotten. Same concept as the Evasion Clause, except it plays out a bit differently. You can work around both effects, but they're both often enough just a giant luck mess.

    Foul Play, Prankster, etc. are just ways of magnifying the fundamental threat of confusion. They are not the problem. There's no need for a complex ban when we already have a simple ban that fits existing ban philosophy.
  3. Balsty

    Balsty

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    The fact that NONE of you are giving ANY mention to Klefki running Safeguard is absolutely ridiculous.

    You Safeguard when you see opposing Klefki, make sure you have enough speed to outprankster, and then switch in a safe counter. BOOM. IT'S ACTUALLY THAT EASY. Stop being babies and learn to counter sets.
  4. pharaohcalvin

    pharaohcalvin

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    You still have to be in when they are or had used Safeguard in the last 5 turns. Otherwise the game because a luck feast. That is the problem, not that Swagplay is unbeatable, but that it is just frustrating luck based strait.
  5. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    The fact that you have failed to present a well presented, non-condescending argument is absolutely ridiculous.

    There are a lot of things you can run on Klefki and Safeguard is usually a waste of space other than to prevent confusion from a strategy that is uncompetitive as fuck.
    Albacore, Emmy2, Seiterman and 4 others like this.
  6. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Come on what are people even doing suggesting complex bans. Why do we NEED confusion in this game. Swagger, confuse ray, flatter, chatter, all of these moves have only one purpose, remove the skill from the game. You know, like moody and evasion. Confusion moves are dumb even without prankster, theres absolutely no reason to allow them, there never was. Seriously lets just get rid of this shit for good.
  7. Kairyu_Gen1

    Kairyu_Gen1

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    I fixed my priority taunt, but considerring I often lose to whimsicott because I die of laughter every time I see it, I don't accept that response.

    Did you just say to put a fire gem on Espeon? If you don't see the problem in that, then you're a lost cause.

    I do suck at this game, but it's not because I am dumb or a bad theorymoner, it's because I am literally famous for misclicks and losing after going afk. Also, I really couldn't care less about you being "disappointed." You've done nothing to earn my respect and I don't really care if I get yours, so why would you bring that into this?

    I'm also stupid, but nothing I've posted on this thread has been incorrect (or if it was, I fixed it ASAP). The only decent anti ban thoughts I've heard were from
  8. Calm_Mind_Latias

    Calm_Mind_Latias

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    Well, in this case, banning Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play is the most conservative position. As you have admitted, Swagger + Foul Play with low speed is not a good combo as it is not reliable especially if you cannot strike first to have a chance to get a free turn.

    Without Foul Play, the Swagger user has to rely on its own offensive stats and moves in order to inflict damage outside of Confusion. This would make facing physically offensive Pokemon for the SwagPlay user more risky since SwagPlay users cannot use the opponent's offensive stats to KO a target.

    So would Confuse Ray + Foul Play + Prankster be nearly as broken? Indeed, there would be less of an incentive to run Foul Play in that case.

    ---

    Alternatively, one prankster SwagPlay user is a nuance, but facing an entire team is quite frustrating. Perhaps a limit of one Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play user per team.
    CL0V3R likes this.
  9. unfixable

    unfixable

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    If anything it is more broken, as it cannot miss.
  10. Zebstrika

    Zebstrika

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    My point is those pokemon all work more often than not. When you look at the amount of luck it takes to beat those pokemon with swag play, you might as well just use a real team and hope for crits, random freezes and paralysis off stuff like thunderbolt because they are just as likely to hax through a team.
  11. Kairyu_Gen1

    Kairyu_Gen1

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    Would this include banning Dynamic Punch, because that's Machamp's only claim to fame, and I'd be sad to steal it from him.
  12. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    Chatter could be a bit different because it actually does damage... hmm. Might take some judgment calls. It does seem a bit silly to specifically make an exception for the move that has the same "broken" effect but also does damage.

    But yeah there's no sense in a complex ban when there's no reason not to simply ban Swagger (and Confuse Ray, and Flatter...) or when Prankster is just a way of using the same strategy more easily.
  13. Hidious

    Hidious

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    You can take my swag play when you pry it from my cold dead hands! Get-R-Done!
  14. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
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    Will there be any repercussions if we only ban Swagger or Prankster+Swagger for now and keep confusion "on watch"? I very much doubt people will successfully abuse Confuse Ray and the like, and outright banning Confusion could be "harmful" for any future suspect discussions.
  15. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper
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    yo can we ban retards for geuninely trying to make a "slippery slope" argument?
    SeTorsque likes this.
  16. PenguinKnight

    PenguinKnight

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    Fucking finally, this thread is here. The amount of happiness and poetic justice I am feeling cannot be described in words.

    Seriously, I'd much rather have MKang, MGar and MLuke and Genesect around than have Swagplay. Heck, I'd rather have Arceus. I'd rather need to predict when they switch in and KO them, rather than need to fight against the confusion hax while he hides behind a substitute, no doubt snickering like an asshole.

    I'm for banning Swagger, Confuse Ray and Flatter. Basically, BAN CONFUSION.
  17. unfixable

    unfixable

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    Ok, I've been thinking a lot and this is what I thought:
    Ban Confusion + Prankster.
    Banning Confusion outright is not ok, due to Machamp and Chatot, but it is also not broken itself because not many things want to use a moveslot to use it, but with Prankster, it is very hard to stop.
  18. Balsty

    Balsty

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    Prevents Toxic, WoW on physical sweepers as well. It's worked pretty well for me.

    Still fail to see how SwagPlay is uncounterable. I've been doing it since the metagame started.


    Also, to the idiots(I don't even care anymore, these people are actual full retards) posting battle replays of swagplay beating UBERS teams.
    OF COURSE IT KILLS ALL THE UBERS. It's UBERS. Their attack stats are so bloody sky-high that Foul Play even without the boost is going to tear them apart. My god, I can't believe that's actually being used as evidence for why it should be banned.

    Subject 18, would you kindly give a valid reason for hiding my post other than foul language or telling people to get better at the game.
  19. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Calm_Mind_Latias Chesnaught
    Prankster Swagger is the problem, the other modes of confusion are fine. The problem with Prankster Swagger is that it is transcending speed tiers in addition to boosting the damage output of the recoil it causes (as well as foul play). Combine that with the free turns it can generate by spamming priority substitutes and you have the problem we have now.

    And remember kiddos:

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  20. Hidious

    Hidious

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    Yes, but that could lead to future bans of anyone who is an idiot. And eventually anyone who says something idiotic. Finally, anyone who is perceived to be idiotic but is just being sarcastic.
  21. Thorhammer

    Thorhammer

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    This could be workable. Most importantly, I'm starting to feel like stuff like Chatter and Dynamic Punch lead to a weird situation of figuring out where to draw the line if we tried to throw in stuff like Confuse Ray and Supersonic.
  22. Balsty

    Balsty

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    You don't need luck to counter it. You need a viable counter.
  23. Kairyu_Gen1

    Kairyu_Gen1

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    But the troll looks hungry!

    Anyway, to all the people asking why we need confusion, I'll ask, why do we need to get rid of it?
    Slayer95 likes this.
  24. Stone_Cold

    Stone_Cold
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    LMAO, I'm a God. You're welcome Haunter.
  25. EverybodyHz

    EverybodyHz

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    Look, I dislike the Slippery Slope fallacy as well. But I'm not saying gay marriage leads to turtle marriage, I'm saying if enough people are making logic-based arguments around banning an ability or an entire game mechanic, they can make an equally logic-based argument against further mechanics. Courts use precedents for a reason.
    Slayer95 likes this.
  26. Salt

    Salt nom
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    Name one. Name something viable that beats SwagPlay 100% of the time and doesn't weigh your team down when you aren't facing it.
    JackieKT likes this.
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