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Swampert (Analysis) [GP 1/2]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by SOMALIA, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    GP check 1/2. Changes are in bold and removals in red.
  2. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
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    Thanks dude will make changes first thing tomorrow.
  3. Chou Toshio

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    [Overview]

    <p>Swampert hasn't seen any significant improvements with the coming of generation five, and as such it has lost popularity within the current metagame. It has great typing that leaves it with only one weakness to Grass-type moves, which can be easily played around through proper team support. While Swampert is damaged greatly by powerful special attacks and has no reliable means of recovery, it has key resistances to Rock- and Fire-type attacks, as well as immunity to Electric-type attacks, granting it plenty of opportunities to switch in. Its stats are no pushover either; it has respectable Defense and Attack, allowing it to play both defensively and offensively. Access to Stealth Rock and Roar make it a solid choice for almost any team, but it has seen better days, with other Pokemon such as Ferrothorn being much better suited to the metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Stealth Rock
    move 1: Stealth Rock
    move 2: Earthquake
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Roar / Scald
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Relaxed
    evs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Swampert still makes a great team player with its ability to set up Stealth Rock on many common leads thanks to its awesome Defense and great typing. Its above-average bulk stat allows it to function exceptionally well as a mid-game defensive Pokemon, not to mention that it is capable of taking on many popular threats, such as Tyranitar and Excadrill, with ease, and can serve as a great defensive pivot.</p>

    <p>Stealth Rock starts off the set, immediately putting pressure on the opposing team as well as rendering Focus Sash useless. Earthquake is used in the second moveslot and is Swampert's primary STAB attack, hitting anything that does not resist it for a nice chunk of damage. Ground-types immune to Earthquake such as Gliscor, and Dragon-types such as Salamence are dealt with by Ice Beam, which OHKOes the aforementioned Pokemon after Stealth Rock damage. It also gives Swampert something to hurt Grass-types that would usually switch in on an anticipated Earthquake. The last slot can be occupied by designated for either Roar or Scald. Roar is great when used in conjunction with Stealth Rock, racking up damage on every Pokemon that is switched in. Scald also has its uses as it gives Swampert a secondary STAB move, not to mention the 30% chance on inflicting a burn on the opposing Pokemon.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The Defense EVs on this set grant Swampert exceptional physical bulk, letting it take most resisted and neutral physical attacks with ease. 240 HP EVs give Swampert more all-around bulk, and 52 Special Defense EVs are used to allow Swampert to take neutral and resisted special attacks, such as Salamence's Draco Meteor and Heatran's Fire Blast, more easily. An alternate EV spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA can be used to maximize Swampert's physical bulk, although it leaves Swampert more vulnerable to special attacks.</p>

    <p>Swampert, despite having a great number of resistances and immunities, has a glaring 4x weakness to Grass-type attacks, and thus requires team support to cover it. Steel-types in general can easily take any Grass-type attack aimed at Swampert. Good teammates include Scizor and Ferrothorn, both of which have 4x resistance to Grass; although they should watch out for Hidden power Fire, which is quite commonly used amongst Grass-type Pokemon. Salamence and Dragonite, in addition to having great synergy with Swampert and can the ability to take Grass-type attacks with ease, threatening Grass-types with Fire Blast. Heatran falls in a similar category, taking negligible amounts from incoming Grass-type attacks, and can hit back with a STAB Fire-type move.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Earthquake
    move 2: Waterfall / Aqua Tail
    move 3: Stone Edge
    move 4: Ice Punch / Hammer Arm
    item: Choice Band / Expert Belt
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Swampert, although primarily defensive, excels at playing an offensive role with its impressive base 110 Attack stat. When using this set, it is important that you predict well. A single incorrect prediction could be catastrophic when using this Swampert, so tread carefully.</p>

    <p>Earthquake and Waterfall form a solid STAB duo with great coverage, allowing Swampert to hit most Pokemon in OU hard. Aqua Tail, despite having lower accuracy than Waterfall, has 10 more base power, allowing Swampert to OHKO or 2HKO certain foes it simply could not with Waterfall, such as specially defensive Skarmory. The third moveslot features Stone Edge, granting Swampert some means of hitting Gyarados and Kyuremu for super effective damage as well as providing Swampert with the infamous QuakeEdge attacking combination. Ice Punch is used in the final slot, granting Swampert valuable OHKOs on Dragonite and Salamence. It can also hit pesky Grass-types such as Celebi and Shaymin who that switch in on Swampert, only to be struck by Ice Punch coming from an impressive 479 Attack (taking Choice Band into account). Hammer Arm is a good alternative for hitting foes such as Balloon Excadrill and Chansey for super effective damage, easily taking them out of commission if you are using Choice Band. Expert Belt is a solid alternative item, bluffing a choice item, which can cause the opponent to predict accordingly, giving you the edge.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs are allotted so as to maximize Swampert's Attack while maintaining its bulk. 252 Attack EVs grant Swampert a respectable 350 Attack stat (without the boost from Choice Band), while the 84 Speed EVs allow Swampert to outspeed minimum Speed Skarmory, although you would require more investment to outspeed faster Taunt variants. The rest of the EVs are dumped into HP, adding to Swampert's overall bulk.</p>

    <p>Entry Hazard support is vital for this set to function well. Heatran and Ferrothorn share great synergy with Swampert and can consistently set up Stealth Rock, the latter being able to set up Spikes also. Pseudo-hazers such as Skarmory are great teammates as they, in addition to setting up entry hazards, shuffle the opponent's team, thereby racking up residual damage on each switch-in. Since Swampert will be locked into a single move if holding Choice Band, it is prone to being revenge killed or set up on. Therefore, good teammates are required to patch up Swampert's weaknesses as well as to deal with common threats to it. Choice Scarf Flygon is a good check to both Dragon Dance Dragonite and Gyarados, revenge killing them both as well as dealing with a myriad of other threats. Steel-types love to switch in on a Swampert that is locked into Stone Edge or Ice Punch. Magnezone makes a good check to them, trapping them thanks to its ability and making quick work of them with Hidden power Fire.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>As stated before, one of Swampert's biggest problems is its crippling 4x weakness to Grass-type moves. Therefore it is vital to have teammates who can soak up these attacks. Fire- and Steel-types have good synergy with Swampert, being able to take Grass-types attacks with ease. Scizor and Heatran are all great choices as they are able to dispose of Grass-type Pokemon with U-turn and Fire Blast respectively. Ferrothorn is also an excellent choice, as it can set up Spikes or cripple Grass-types with Thunder Wave. It is important to note that most Grass-types tend to use either Hidden Power Fire or Earth Power in conjunction with their STAB attacks to fend of Steel- and Fire-types. For this reason, Dragon-types also make great teammates as they generally boast great Speed and power as well as excellent synergy with Swampert. Salamence and Latios are solid choices, Salamence disposing of the likes of Ferrothorn and Celebi with Fire Blast, and Latios potentially setting up Calm Mind with its impressive special bulk. Blissey with its outstanding special bulk can easily take on Grass-types, with the exception of Leech Seed Ferrothorn as it is immune to Toxic.</p>

    <p>There is no doubt that Swampert is a solid tank, although one big factor that keeps it away from being among the best is its lack of a reliable recovery move. For this reason Wish support is very beneficial to its longevity. Jirachi, who resists Grass-type attacks, comes by across as one of the best Wish passers, due to its excellent all around stats. Blissey and Vaporeon are welcomed also as well, as they can switch into powerful special attacks aimed at Swampert and Wish away. As stated previously, entry hazard support is vital, especially to the Offensive set. Skarmory and Ferrothorn share almost perfect synergy with Swampert, and can both set up Spikes and Stealth Rock. Leech Seed support is another way to heal Swampert. Ferrothorn with its superior bulk can get Leech Seed to Swampert consistently throughout the match. Venusaur also synergizes well with Swampert and can replenish its health with Leech Seed.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Swampert doesn't have a vast movepool to choose from. Interestingly, Swampert learns both Mirror Coat and Counter, which can be utilized well thanks to Swampert's bulk. Superpower is a good alternative to Ice Punch on the offensive set, as it gives Swampert good neutral coverage in tandem with its other moves. However, the Attack and Defense drops that come after using it will often force Swampert to switch out the next turn. A RestTalk Curse set seems viable although Swampert loses out on coverage and is prone to set up, so stay alert. Yawn can force switches, racking up damage on the opposing team if entry hazards have been set up beforehand. Swampert can run a specially based set with Scald, Earth Power, Ice Beam and Hidden Power Electric although its special offensive prowess is outclassed by many other Water-types in that aspect. Slime Wave doesn't have many uses apart from nailing but can be used to nail Grass-types on the switch-in while having a 10% chance of poisoning the foe.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>The best counters for Swampert are Grass-types, such as Celebi and Ferrothorn. They can easily switch in and proceed to OHKO Swampert with their STAB attacks. However, be warned: a smart Swampert user will almost always have a teammate who that can deal with Grass-types. Other bulky Water-types, such as Suicune and Jellicent, can't really damage Swampert too much, but it cannot damage them, either. However, the aforementioned bulky Waters can set up on Swampert (the latter being able to completely cripple Swampert with Will-o-Wisp) and will almost always beat it one-on-one. Skarmory and Forretress can easily set up entry hazards on Swampert thanks to their sky-high Defense, the former being able to Taunt it while the latter can Spin away Stealth Rock. Overall, any Pokemon that can take a few hits and dish out consistent damage will be able to defeat Swampert one-on-one. Gyarados can Taunt Stealth Rock sets, preventing them from Roaring it away as it sets up Dragon Dance (maybe move this sentence up to the bit about bulky waters).</p>

    [Dream World]

    <p>Swampert's Dream World ability, Damp, is possibly one of the most useless abilities it could have received. Explosion's has become very rare this generation thanks to its power being nerfed, not to mention that if using Damp, Swampert cannot learn Superpower or Stealth Rock. Overall, both of Swampert's abilities have little use, although Torrent is the better one, especially on the offensive set, where a 50% boost to its STAB Water-type attack is welcomed.</p>


    First, from a GP standpoint, good job.

    [​IMG]

    2/2

    That being said, as a common Smogon user, I can't ignore that this analysis is in sore need of an update-- it is painfully out of touch with the BW metagame. It really sounds like a 4th Gen Analysis.

    Some important points:

    FERROTHORN, FERROTHORN, FERROTHORN!!!!! Ferrothorn is the ultimate "Fuck-You" GF released against bulky waters, and that includes Swampert-- and badly needs emphasis here. Ferrothorn switches in with impunity (yes, even against Earthquake) into Swampert and sets up Spikes/SR without a care. While Swampert will always be forced out against Ferrothorn, Ferrothorn can use every chance it has to come in to litter the field with painfully game-altering hazards. Thus, simply having Swampert on your team can be a crippling liability. Yes, Grass Attacks are easy to cover and switch into, but that's completely irrelevant when the enemy is setting up hazards instead.

    Ferrothorn should have its own paragraph under "counters," and another paragraph under "teammates" when discussing how to cover Swampert's weaknesses-- among which Ferrothorn is the most notable. HP Fire Zone to trap and kill, or other Water types like Rotom-W or Starmie + Hidden Power Fire as a lure-and-kill-Ferrothorn need mentions in teammates. Heck, with 80 Sp.A available, HP Fire should probably get a mention in other options for Swampert itself. HP Fire Starmie deserves special mention not only for killing Ferrothorn, but also for spinning away Ferrothorn's hazards. You may notice that this is not discussing Pokemon that take advantage of Swampert's help well, but rather Pokemon that can go some ways to fix Swampert's (big) short-coming.

    Ferrothorn could probably be cited as the greatest factor in Swampert's becoming a UU Pokemon in BW.

    Stop mentioning "generic Grass-types" as Swamperts biggest threat. Celebi and Shaymin? It'll be a miracle if either makes the OU list. If it's not named Ferrothorn (and possibly Breloom, which didn't get a single mention) it is not a particularly relevant OU Grass type (outside of weather abusers like Venusaur and Ludicolo). Generic non-weather Grass Type + Hidden Power Fire is NOT a very common sight in BW OU.

    I could go on, but overall, I think you get the picture-- this analysis is well written and the sets themselves represent Swampert's best options, but the commentary could definitely be better written to be in-tune with the real BW metagame.

    In any case, Swampert is not a particularly relevant OU threat, and it is clear that a lot of work has already been put into this, so it's probably best to let it go for now-- this did pass QC afterall. I'm just mentioning this to note that this badly needs an update (insofar as it's important for us to have an up to date Swampert Analysis).
  4. yee

    yee
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    Honestly, I think Boiling Water is a better move for a Swampert than HP Fire even if there is a Ferrothorn on the other team. What if it's a rain team? HP Fire will do nothing!!! At least you can take advantage of the obvious switch in and burn in/switch instead of doing like 20%. Not to mention Forretress just happens to take advantage of Ferrothorn almost perfectly and is a great partner to Swampert.

    CB Hammer Arm lets you easily outrun a 2HKO any Natt. Earthquake actually gets the specially defensive ones in 2 hits. Please don't blow Ferrothorn out of proportion. Sweepers like Excadrill, Landorus, Terrakion, Volcarona, Blaziken etc. etc. etc. are the bigger threats and Swampert can no longer stop them, Quagsire, Slowbro, and Gastrodon together outclass the tank entirely with the exception of learning Stealth Rock. Choice Band is still great, as it actually lets you suprise common switch ins who forget about base 110 attack.
  5. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    Celebi and Shaymin are certainly waning in influence. Virizion is a real and common threat, however, disappointing to see it omitted.

    This writeup still seems to sell Swampert's flaws in the current metagame short. It doesn't explain why nobody's using Swampert any more, and seems to imply that it's because Ferrothorn does the same job better. If that's the case you're trying to make, it could use a bit more detail than a half-sentence in the introduction.
  6. twash

    twash
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    It's not taking on Excadrill anywhere near as well as it is made to sound. +2 Jolly Air Balloon Excadrill easily 2HKOes with Earthquake, with Life Orb there's a chance of Swampert being knocked out. What's Swampert supposed to do Air Balloon Excadrill? Roar only means that Excadrill will come in later and cause more problems, whilst Swampert loses HP. You can't Earthquake because of Air Balloon, and Ice Beam is poor. Even Boiling Water will do disappointing damage. Swampert shouldn't be taking on Excadrill.

    This implies you OHKO Chansey, which you don't. If it knows you're CB, it can just Wish and Protect for a so-so loss of HP, allowing them to then swing the momentum their way with a safe switch. You should also reword the part about Hammer Arm for Excadrill, saying that it additional coverage whilst still hitting Excadrill. It currently sounds as though Hammer Arm is a good alternative for Ice Punch, also making it sound like Swampert's best option for Excadrill, which is untrue.

    I dunno, I just think the write-up could do with expansion in places, and removing the obvious stuff in others, to keep the length good. For example:
    Does the reader really need to know that the person using Swampert is likely to have something for Grass-types? Seems kind of obvious/pointless. And in other places, you just kind of end up making statements. For example, in the CB set you say "When using this set, it is important that you predict well. A single incorrect prediction could be catastrophic when using this Swampert, so tread carefully.", which makes it sound so bad that it's not worth using. Is it not true that every CBer relies on prediction? Or is it especially worse for this Swampert? And if so, why? You can probably just go through it yourself and fix this though, it isn't hugely major but was noticeable in a couple of places.

    Also, I'd expand on the Ferrothorn point in the Overview, saying that whilst Swampert is a decent utility/support Pokemon in theory, he actually often does the opposite of what is meant, because he will often invite opposing common support Pokemon in to do their thing - Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Skarmory which can support the opponent's team, which actually makes Swampert somewhat do the opposite of attempting to support the team. This means that it is often better to look at other options that have either more to do in their turns, or alternatively invite these Pokemon in less.

    There just seems to be a few inaccuracies in the way Swampert handles things. But honestly, I think you have a really solid read that can start to move towards being perfected (remember that some of the sections have been changed!), I genuinely think this is looking good. Cool job.
  7. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King
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    Yes, I wrote this quite a while ago before I actually got into the B/W competitive scene and there is alot that can be added/removed.It will be rewritten then I will ask a GP member to do one last check. Thanks alot all of you for your input.
  8. Sextus scion of crazy

    Sextus scion of crazy

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    Boiling water is now called scald. Be sure to update names of moves and pokemon.
  9. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    With SOMALIA gone, this is up for grabs. If no one's interested... I guess I can write it.
  10. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Not going to keep SOMALIA's writing? I mean, sure, by all means go ahead, and I guess we should tweak it to the current metagame.
  11. RaikouLover

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    Wait, I'm confused. Why are we even suggesting Hammer Arm when Superpower exists? Superpower is only slightly weaker over two turns (200 base power vs. 199.2 base power, do the calcs), and boasts 100% accuracy at that and doesn't make Swampert slower than Chansey after its first use.

    Also:

    K, I don't know who rolled over and decided Swampert was useless because of Ferrothorn, when like Metagross, Swampert can send a swift Fuck you right back to Ferrothorn with Hammer Arm. Wait, Swampert even gets Superpower....? Unlike every other bulky water that is desparate to touch Ferrothorn, Swampert is actually given SOMETHING to fight against it. Choice Band Swampert actually completely trolls Ferrothorn.. nearly OHKOing with Superpower and 2HKOing outright with Earthquake. With that being said, I remember someone (I think it was Jabba) was running a different Stealth Rock pert towards the end of Gen Iv:

    Hydro Pump
    Ice Beam
    Superpower
    Stealth Rock

    EDIT: So for an EV spread for this thing, Brave - 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Def 2HKOs Ferrothorn with Superpower with SR and 2 layers of spikes. Though most of the time, you just need to deter it. That spread keeps 404 HP and 266 Def, and will deal 50% minimum to Ferrothorn with the first Superpower, aka the bastard is only coming in on you once. The standard mixpert spread of 252 HP / 216 Def / 40 SpA, Relaxed, will do 44% minimum, but you can keep the same damage output as the first spread if you switch to Expert Belt (53% minimum). Losing Leftovers probably isn't worth that tho.

    Something along those lines I forget the EV spread. Superpower / Hammer Arm should be standard on ALL Swampert for 2 reasons... 1) Ferrothorn 2) Balloon fuckery is everywhere. With a Water / Fighting replacement moves, you don't lose coverage against Heatran / Dory / or any of the other Earthquake targets. So while standard Mixpert is always the same, I strongly recommend moving Swampert up to speed with the times.

    Also, Scald is ill-advised on Swampert IMO. Swampert needs the power. Not OHKOing Dory defeats the purpose of even using Pert, and pert doesn't have the time or recovery to be fucking around with Burn chances. It makes MUCH more sense on Slowbro, Milotic, and Vaporeon because they actually recover worth a damn. Not only that, Hydro Pump sends a big fuck you to Skarmory, 2HKOing with no investment. If you wanna be cute, put Swampert on a Rain team and just blast through the steel bird's futile roosting attempts
  12. CavanChild99

    CavanChild99

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    SpecsPert
    Choice Specs
    Hydro Pump
    Earth Power
    Ice Beam
    Hidden Power Grass/Fire

    252hp/252Spa/4spd
  13. prem

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    why would you run specspert with only 85 base special attack
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    I think the biggest problem with Superpower isn't the Attack cut overall, but the Def cut is pretty noticeable and can force Swampert out. Swampert takes >65% from Tyrantar's Choice Band Crunch for example, so if it isn't in full health it's either forced out or likely dead.

    @AG: Just minor update tweaking / pushing through GP is what I mean.
  15. CavanChild99

    CavanChild99

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    specsperts bulk lets it tak hits and then deal great damage it is orriginal and people don't expext
    most specs users cant take hits SPECSPERT CAN !!!!!
  16. Moo

    Moo Professor
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    I'll take this over

    Edit: shit, super ninja'd *_*
  17. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    latias can take practically every non-dragon or ice special move and hit with a much stonger specs meteor
    slowbro can take even more of a beating than pert with regenerator, higher spa, and has a higher spcial attack.
    other notable water types that can run specs better are gastrodon, vaporeon (not common but better than specs pert), rotomw. most of these are of equal bulk and hit harder than pert.

    also, not to be offensive, but running a bad set as a surprise isnt norally considered viable

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