Discussion Switch = OK Rulings

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Its_A_Random

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#1
This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.

ITT: We decide to review the Switch = OK rules, because it 1. Needs to be updated, & 2. There are a few niggling aspects with the rules that need to be clarified. The purpose of this discussion is to basically, find a set of Switch = OK rulings we can all agree on or something, idk. Here are the current Switch = OK Rules as they stand:
[BOX]Switch = OK: At the end of each round, a trainer may switch their Pokemon. If they do, the Pokemon they send out must issue attacks first. The same trainer cannot switch on consecutive rounds unless an Attack like U-turn, Volt Change, or Teleport is used. Trainers whose Pokemon are returned through the effects of moves like Dragon Tail, Circle Throw, Roar, and Whirlwind do not have to move first the next round.

Voluntary switches occur only during a switching phase.

A Switching phase may only be initiated by the trainer moving first that round. Instead of issuing commands, the trainer may instead initiate a switch and offer their opponent a chance to switch their Pokemon. If the opposing trainer accepts and switches their Pokemon, that trainer forfeits the advantage of moving second that round.

A Switching phase has only two possible outcomes:

1. Player A Switch > Player B Declines Switch > Player A Orders > Player B Orders.

2. Player A Switch > Player B Counterswitch and Orders > Player A Orders.

Tag Team Battles operate the same with both team members on the same team switching their Pokemon first. The team which performs the most switches in the switch phase moves first. (e.g. if both trainers on a two person tag team switch, but only one of their opponents does, their opponents still move second)

Melee battles go through each trainer next in the order. Attack Order is then determined in the reverse order of trainers who switched. (eg. Trainer A initiates switch phase. Trainer B makes a switch, Trainer C declines to switch, then Trainer D makes a switch. The attack order would now be D > B > A > C. Because D was able to see the decisions of all other players, D is punished the most for deciding to switch after B switched and C declined.

Any Battle large enough to require orders via PM will automatically be set to Switch=KO[/BOX]
I proposed a potential solution to the issues that I felt needed to be fixed with the updates & shit. The post was:
Okay, this needs to be done.

<Current Switch = OK Rules go here>

There are some issues that exist in the current rules that I feel need fixing. These are:

  • The obscure cannot initiate a switch phase on consecutive rounds ruling — Nobody follows it, so that needs to be abolished ASAP.
  • Lack of clarity in some sections — This should be fixed.
  • Switch Phases involving trapping moves/abilities/whatever — This is vague & is pretty much unwritten as a ruling, so clarifying it should be necessary.
So we need a solution. This is my proposed solution:
[BOX]Switch = OK: At the end of each round, a trainer may switch their Pokemon. If they do, the Pokémon they send out must issue attacks first if their opponent does not switch with them. Trainers whose Pokémon are returned through the effects of moves like U-turn, Volt Switch, Teleport, and Baton Pass have to order first next round, though they may still initiate a switch phase if they wish to do so. Trainers whose Pokémon are returned through the effects of moves like Dragon Tail, Circle Throw, Roar, and Whirlwind do not have to move first the next round.

Voluntary switches occur only during a switching phase.

A Switching phase may only be initiated by the trainer moving first that round. Instead of issuing commands, the trainer may instead initiate a switch and offer their opponent a chance to switch their Pokémon. If the opposing trainer accepts and switches their Pokémon, that trainer forfeits the advantage of moving second that round. During a Switch Phase, if a trainer switches in/out a Pokémon with the Shadow Tag/Arena Trap Ability, or switches out a Pokémon that has trapped another Pokémon through the use of Block/Mean Look/Bind/Clamp/Fire Spin/Magma Storm/Sand Tomb/Whirlpool/Wrap, then the opponent can still Counterswitch the Pokémon that were trapped through such means. Should the opposing trainer have no living Pokémon in the bench, then the offer to Counterswitch is automatically declined.

A Switching phase has only two possible outcomes:

1. Player A Switch > Player B Declines Switch > Player A Orders > Player B Orders.

2. Player A Switch > Player B Counterswitch and Orders > Player A Orders.

Tag Team Battles operate the same with both team members on the same team switching their Pokemon first. The team which performs the most switches in the switch phase moves first. (e.g. if both trainers on a two person tag team switch, but only one of their opponents does, their opponents still move second)

Melee battles go through each trainer next in the order. Attack Order is then determined in the reverse order of trainers who switched. (eg. Trainer A initiates switch phase. Trainer B makes a switch, Trainer C declines to switch, then Trainer D makes a switch. The attack order would now be D > B > A > C. Because D was able to see the decisions of all other players, D is punished the most for deciding to switch after B switched and C declined.

Any Battle large enough to require orders via PM will automatically be set to Switch=KO[/BOX]
Okay, the obscure ruling is gone, that is obvious. I mentioned how the auto-switch moves affect turn order, that is obvious. I mentioned how trainers with no reserve cannot Counterswitch, obvious. The real controversial part, I believe, is this added section:
[BOX]During a Switch Phase, if a trainer switches in/out a Pokémon with the Shadow Tag/Arena Trap Ability, or switches out a Pokémon that has trapped another Pokémon through the use of Block/Mean Look/Bind/Clamp/Fire Spin/Magma Storm/Sand Tomb/Whirlpool/Wrap, then the opponent can still Counterswitch the Pokémon that were trapped through such means.[/BOX]
Okay, here is the niggling part that would see opinions divided. Do not get me wrong, the ability to trap something you want to take out is very powerful in its own right, but the major problem comes in this: Do we follow in-game—where Double Switches are a thing—or do we follow the Anime, where there is an "I switch, then you switch" thing? I believe we should—for the sake of clarity & balance—try to apply the two in separate occasions. Switching in a st/at mon should follow in-game where you can double switch & avoid having your weaker Pokémon trapped, while switching out the trapper should follow the Anime where you switch out, but when you switch out, so does the trapping effects, allowing the opponent to counter-switch, since there is nothing stopping them from not switching any more, right?

Any thoughts? Especially the whole switching trappers thing since I honestly doubt that is going to be agreed on...
The solution was supported, but there was an overwhelming consensus that a discussion was necessary in order to come up with a set of rules we can agree on.

Discussion should focus on the following questions:

  • "The same trainer cannot switch on consecutive rounds..." is an obscure ruling that nobody tends to follow. Should this be removed? Why?
  • There are several things that were clarified in the quoted proposal, including the whole "Attack first if you use an auto-switch move" thing, & the whole "If you switch and the opponent has no reserve, the counter-switch offer is automatically ignored" thing. Are these clarifications acceptable? Why?
  • Switch Phases involving trapping moves/abilities/whatever: There are a few rulings around involving them, but none are "written", so to speak. How do you feel these should be resolved? Is the proposed solution in the quoted post the best way to go about this, or is there a better way? Why?
  • Any other issues concerning the current Switch = OK rulings do you feel need to be addressed? Why?
Keep it civil folks. Remember to stay on topic, & well, time to just discuss Switch = OK Rulings, I guess...
 

zarator

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#2
While your stance about trapping effects makes sense (sorta), I'm worried about Shadow Tag and co. becoming even more pointless than they currently are. I used Chandelure in over a year, for example, and the only reason I generally use Shadow Tag (in Switch = OK) is that the other two abilities are worthless in general:
- Flash Fire is obvious, none would use Fire-type attacks on Chandy anyway.
- Flame Body seems better but, if you think about it, the majority of attacks coming at Chandy won't be contact moves. Almost all Water-type, Ground-type, Ghost-type, and Rock-type moves are non-contact. Unless you're facing a physically oriented Dark-type mon, I guess, you won't need this ability.

The same can be said for most other trappers.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
#3
IAR's position makes no sense logically; it is simply the largest nerf available to Shadow Tag, but it is inconsistent and the scrambling to justify it makes this obvious. As zarator said, Shadow Tag really isn't all that strong and doesn't require a nerf. I'm fine with using the game-version ST both ways, in that you can switch out when the ST user comes in but not when they go out. This removes the only possible broken application of the ability (perishtrapping) because really apart from that, big whoop.
 

ZhengTann

Nargacuga
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#4
  • "The same trainer cannot switch on consecutive rounds..." is an obscure ruling that nobody tends to follow. Should this be removed? Why?
Since nobody follows it, then we might as well abolish it - takes much less effort than re-enforcing the rule, even when doing so does nothing much to the game balance. Go with the flow, why not?

  • There are several things that were clarified in the quoted proposal, including the whole "Attack first if you use an auto-switch move" thing, & the whole "If you switch and the opponent has no reserve, the counter-switch offer is automatically ignored" thing. Are these clarifications acceptable? Why?
The "Order first if you use a self-switch / phaze move" clarification should be added, as well as "If you switch and the opponent has no reserve, the counter-switch offer is automatically ignored" part. The reason I nitpicked "Order" over "Attack" is that you could (according to forum trends) self-switch or phaze, then initiate a Switch phase (since you're moving first) even though doing so totally nullifies your self-switch / phazing tactics.

  • Switch Phases involving trapping moves/abilities/whatever: There are a few rulings around involving them, but none are "written", so to speak. How do you feel these should be resolved? Is the proposed solution in the quoted post the best way to go about this, or is there a better way? Why?
In Switch-Trapping, I am in support for in-anime precedence. Basically, Trapping Abilities come into effect as soon as the trapper switches in, and is removed as soon as the trapper switches out. Think about this: [box]

  • With you ordering first, your Chandelure switches in, Shadow Tag takes effect, trapping a Ghost-weak or Fire-weak Pokemon and proceeds to KO it.
  • Your opponent sends in Dugtrio against the weakened Chandelure to trap and finish it off, since he orders first this rounds.
  • His/her Dugtrio survives until he orders first again, where he switches out Dugtrio and you are now free to counterswitch.
[/box]
So in practice, this allows trappers to KO those Pokemons they hard counter, while at the same time giving both sides enough leeway to play with switching should the trapper ends up in an unfavourable match-up. Flavour-wise, this makes sense too - you are actually going to see that Chandelure popping out of its Pokeball before you think, "Oh shit, my Meganium would stand no chance, and now I can't switch!"

I don't think we should mix between in-catridge and in-anime precedence, since doing so either nerfs trappers the way IAR prescribes, or boost them to the point where doomsayers from the opposing camp will jump in as well. As to why I'd follow in-anime precedence over in-catridge - this is Anime-Style Battling, no?
 

Deck Knight

Tornadic Cyclohm
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#6
As far as trapping and anti-trapping MOVES:

Volt Switch, Baton Pass, and U-turn users should clarify which Pokemon they are going to switch to in the attack. That Pokemon will switch in at the end of the round, and then hazard damage etc. will be recorded. This effect will occur AFTER all residual damage effects, status, etc.

Trapping moves will remain in effect as long as the Pokemon that used them is on the field at the end of the round.

Lets use Flygon for some examples of how this plays out, focusing on U-turn, Dragon Tail, and Sand Tomb.

Scenario 1: If Flygon uses U-turn, I have to specify which Pokemon I'm going to switch to, and will attack first next round.
Scenario 2: If Flygon uses Dragon Tail then I will attack first next round.
Scenario 3: If Flygon uses Sand Tomb and is still active at the end of a round where it goes second, Flygon can switch and the opponent cannot respond with a counterswitch, because at the time of Flygon's switching their pokemon is trapped.
Scenario 4: If Flygon uses U-turn on a round where Sand Tomb is in effect, on action 3 Sand Tomb will do its passive damage, Flygon will take Poison/Burn/whatever damage, then the new Pokemon will be switched in and take any hazard damage, but not any status/other damage.
Scenario 5: If Flygon uses U-turn and Dragon Tail, I still have to specify the Pokemon I'm going to switch to, even if I *don't know* what the result of Dragon Tail will be. Since I will be going first, I get a chance to switch out, but my opponent will have a chance to counterswitch.
Scenario 6: If Flygon uses Dragon Tail and Dragon Tail drags in a Shadow Tag Pokemon to trap it, I will not be able to switch next round because my opponent's trapping effect is in place before the start of the next round.

Lets say Flygon is in a Doubles Match with Chandelure, or in Scenario 3 singles, U-turns to a Chandelure - here is how each of these scenarios is changed:
Scenarios 1-2 and 6 are unchanged.
In Scenario 3 because Flygon U-turned to Chandelure and Chandelure is the active Pokemon at the end of the round, the opponent cannot switch even if I choose to switch out Chandelure because Shadow Tag is in effect at the end of the round.
In Scenario 4-5 the opponent cannot switch because of Chandelure's Shadow Tag - UNLESS Chandelure is removed from the field via a phazing move. Chandelure will be switched out at the end of Action 3, the new Pokemon will take hazard damage, and the switch phaze will be decided by whatever the normal order would be since both scenarios require a switch or phazing move from either side.

Side note: The origin of the non-consecutive switching rule was actually designed to be a self-limiting tactic. Since I'm a hazards nut, I easily envisioned a scenario where I would set a hazard, phaze, then switch to another phazer, phaze again, then do another switch. I would be acting first in the latter two rounds barring a counter-phaze, and if my opponent did counterswitch an additional one of their Pokemon would take hazard damage *and* I would get to attack second.
 

zarator

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#7
There hasn't been a lot of talk about the "consecutive switch" rule, yet. To be honest, I don't really understand why people think this rule is useless. Yeah, maybe it could be not used a lot, I don't really know, but without it the player who goes first can just keep switching back and forth to force the opponent to choose between going first or take a bad matchup, every damn time. I understand you can punish this strategy with hazards, but much like we all recognized you shouldn't be forced to have Taunt/Encore to beat Perish Song back then, I shouldn't have to resort to Stealth Rock just to prevent the opponent from brutalizing me with repeated switches.
 
#8
to be fair you only need to take the bad matchup once, and you go second, then you can switch yourself next round when you're first and see if the opponent counters, the only reason you would need to switch repeatedly would be if you counter-switched every time you opponent switched
 
#9
There hasn't been a lot of talk about the "consecutive switch" rule, yet. To be honest, I don't really understand why people think this rule is useless. Yeah, maybe it could be not used a lot, I don't really know, but without it the player who goes first can just keep switching back and forth to force the opponent to choose between going first or take a bad matchup, every damn time. I understand you can punish this strategy with hazards, but much like we all recognized you shouldn't be forced to have Taunt/Encore to beat Perish Song back then, I shouldn't have to resort to Stealth Rock just to prevent the opponent from brutalizing me with repeated switches.
Firstly, if at any point you make the choice of taking a bad matchup (or the closest to a bad matchup your opponent is able to give you) then in the next round, you get to initiate a switch phase of your own thus potentially allowing you to be the guy who can just keep switching back and forth to force the opponent to choose between going first or taking a bad matchup.

Secondly, going first isn't all bad. When going first, you get to make substitutions to prevent your opponent from using their best strategies while you get to use your own best strategies. This makes more of a difference when you're subbing against disruptive non-damaging moves than when you're subbing against strong damaging moves.

If you want to argue for the rule being a necessity today, a scenario like the one Deck posted is a more convincing argument.
 
#11
I agree with ZT here, for what it's worth. Because of the way switching works in ASB (Player A switches then offers the counterswitch) as opposed to in-game (Both players switch simultaneously), it just doesn't make sense to use in-game precedent here unless not using it severely breaks the game, and while it makes Chandelure et al slightly better, I hardly think it's worth ignoring the logical option.
 
#12
Why don't we just settle switching through PMs, both players whether they are switching or not that round pm that to the ref and then the ref says it in a post in the thread and then both players order as normally.
 
#14
kingmitus, although the idea is in good intentions, it's too tedious and another thing for refs to track, slowing down everything so much more.

Just to expand on Tex's kerb-stomp.
 
#15
48h warning before the booth. Unless someone has anything to add.

The ballots I have are:

Should a player be allowed to start a switch phase on consecutive rounds?
a) Yes
b) No

How should Shadow Tag/Arena Trap/Magnet Pull be considered as far as counterswitching is concerned?
a) If the player switches in a Trapper, the opposing player can't counterswitch
b) If the player switches out a Trapper, the opposing player can't counterswitch
c) Both a and b
d) Neither a nor b

When the pokemon that used a traping move (mean look, spider web, whirlpool, clamp etc) switch out, can the opposing player counterswitch?
a) Yes
b) No

Should the player be forced to specify who will switch in when Volt Switch/U-turn/Teleport is used?
a) Yes
b) No



Rewriting isn't here as I think we should first decide the rulings and then write it out.

Not sure if I missed stuff, so let me know if yes, k?
 
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