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Syclar - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Pre-Evolution Workshop' started by Birkal, Aug 23, 2012.

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  1. Birkal

    Birkal Now watch me tie it into a knot with my tongue
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    In the previous thread to this pre-evolution process, we discussed some of the overall ideas that we need to focus on for Syclar, the pre-evolution of Syclant. At the end, I threw out some thoughts that are necessary to consider for the future of Syclar. Please read through that post you you understand where I'm coming from.

    This is the stage where we discuss the typing of Syclar. Its evolution, Syclant is Ice / Bug type, so we absolutely must keep that in mind. You may also wish to consider the original artwork for Syclar when it comes to making flavor decisions like this. I am just gonna throw this out right away: we are only allowed to change one type at maximum. I do not want to see any posts supporting Fire / Ground. Rather, discuss from the following list which typing you'd like to see on Syclar and why. I think there is a case for all of them, so there really isn't a wrong answer here. If you have another unique typing to recommend, feel free to do so, although I currently don't think they'd be optimal over my list. Who knows though, you might prove me wrong!


    Ice / Bug is the traditional approach that most closely resembles Syclant.

    Ice is unique and it could be argued that Syclar is some sort of snow particle more than a bug.

    Bug has the ability to change up some things flavor-wise in terms of where Syclar live in relation to Syclant since it loses its Ice-typing.

    Ice / Grass is something I've toyed around with a little bit. While it's a little silly, I could see a case (if it was well presented) on how Syclar has some leaf-like body segments. Just because a Pokemon looks Bug-type doesn't mean it is; check out Vibrava if you don't agree.​


    This thread will be open for roughly 24 hours.

    What we have so far:

    Name: Syclar
    Type: ???
    Sprite:
    [​IMG]
  2. HLDR

    HLDR

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    I feel like there's no reason for Syclar to have its type changed, it fits the Bug type canon well and fits the art perfectly, plus it's an interesting type on general. I see how Ice/Grass could be interesting but I don't think it really applies to Syclar.
  3. Kyuzeth

    Kyuzeth

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    I feel there's no need to change its typing around; it not only fits as an offensive competitive typing, but aesthetically, Ice/Bug-type just seems most fitting for this little critter.
  4. jas61292

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    Honestly, I see no reason to do anything but Ice/Bug. The body shape and segmentation of the head really seem insect like so, and the tail end is reminiscent of ice. While it is true as Birkal pointed that you can be bug like and not be bug-type, this is fairly rare, and I see no reason to do that here. If it were to be anything other than Bug/Ice, I would say pure Bug, due to that ability to interpret the tail as something other than ice. However, I personally would prefer just keeping it the same as its evolution.
  5. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    I'm pretty much agreeing with doing Ice/Bug. I could of sworn it was the reverse, but that doesn't overly matter in the grand scheme of things. I think it would be a bit weird for a little plant covered in Ice to turn into an Insect as well...

    The only other one I'd agree with is Bug. It just looks so much like a little insect.
  6. RitterCat

    RitterCat
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    Yeah, like everyone else I see no need to change from Ice/Bug. It's an icy bug in design, so any change would just be silly and confusing!
  7. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    Bug/Ice. I can't really see any other typing working from a flavor standpoint other than Bug/Ice, except for MAYBE Bug. Overall, though, there's not much of a reason to change the typing.
  8. sandshrewz

    sandshrewz
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    First post in CAP >.>

    I'd say stay with the current typing. I think making it a pure Ice-type is sort of weird since it already looks like a Bug and Ice feels like the 'secondary type'. I'll try to explain >.> Bug is the main characteristic of Skylar whereas Ice is 'elemental'. For example, Wormadam and Scyther both retain their Bug-type because Bug characterizes them, gives them their Egg type, and give them their shape. Pure Ice is sort of weird to me because it's hard to imagine a Bug forming from Ice. Pure Bug-type is possible just like how Caterpie etc gain a secondary type after evolving, but Ice / Bug is still good and it can stay that way :)

    But I think it might be a good idea to give it a pure Bug typing? The higher up the mountain it climbs, the stronger it gets and it also becomes colder. It could possibly evolve and gain its Ice typing to endure the harshness of the cold.mountain tops? You could say that it can still become a Bug / Ice type even when it's not in the mountain area because such a change in typing is already deeply rooted into Scylar's origins. Of course making it a pure Bug-type would be rather unpopular due to how much it would cut back on its movepool etc, but I think it might be rather interesting to explore as a possibility even if it doesn't happen?

    Overall remaining as a Bug / Ice is fine and Bug is a nice possibility to explore in :) pardon me if I got my facts wrong or anything >.>

    Edit oops sorry I didn't mean to switch the typing around >.>
  9. psykokitty

    psykokitty

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    Just like pretty much everyone has said before me, I have to say Ice/Bug seems the most reasonable, with Bug being a viable but inferior option.
  10. Pwnemon

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    it is a bug

    also there is an icicle in its butthole

    yeah this isn't really a hard choice for me, i think we stay consistent and go ice/bug. besides, look at, of the mons we mentioned earlier, how all of them except karrablast keep all their typings...

    EDIT: also ice/grass is abomasnow and abomasnow is a bad pokemon :P
  11. nyttyn

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    Like I said earlier, it looks like a bug and it has a chunk of ice quite literally sticking out of its ass. Hard to really say anything other then ice/bug given how much it looks ice/bug.

    although imo it looks more like a fire/dragon type.
  12. ShinyDreamer

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    Where did that come from?

    I actually like the idea of it being a true Bug; that flavor-whatever thing sounds like what they probably did with Onix, or any number of new-secondary-type evolutions that appeared.
  13. Birkal

    Birkal Now watch me tie it into a knot with my tongue
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    Just as a general disclaimer, note that I am proposing Ice / Bug and not Bug / Ice. I don't think there is any precedent for types flipping upon evolution in game, but perhaps I am wrong on that front; lemme know if I'm wrong. I know it's super nit picky, but just making sure you all are aware!

    While Ice / Bug is the obvious choice, I think there could be a strong case for solely Bug-type as well. The design certainly hints at Ice-typing, but the design doesn't rely heavily on it, in my opinion. For comparison, I think that Shelmet screams Bug / Steel, and yet it is only Bug-type. Perhaps that is because of its unusual evolution method, but the point still stands. Keep up the discussion; I like how this is going.

    Also Snover is one of my favorite Pokemon; pwnemon, you monster ;__;
  14. DraconicWolf

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    Ice/Bug is really the only option that I see working. As far as I know, whenever a single-type Pokemon evolves into a dual-type Pokemon the new type is the secondary one, so mono-Bug doesn't work. And mono-Ice just doesn't fit Syclar's design.
  15. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    I belive sandhrewz said earlier that a mono-bug typing would restrict Syclar/Syclant's movepool, but the funny thing is, Syclant learns mostly Bug moves by level-up. It doesn't even learn Ice Beam by level. For those of you that argue that there is no prcedent, we can take the liberty of swapping primary/secondary types if it fits the flavor better, which in this case it does IMO.
  16. ShinyDreamer

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    My take on types is a little weird, anyway. The way I see it, if a dual-type Pokemon LOOKS more like one type or the other, most of its STAB physical attacks should favor the type it resembles while most of its STAB special attacks favor the other type. I'd use Syclant as an example, but I can't decide which it looks more like. Maybe...Colossoil. It looks like a Ground-type (so much so that I can't even remember what its secondary type was), so most of its STAB physicals would logically be Ground. I don't have its movepool right in front of me, so I don't know if that's how it stacks up. Now, that Electric/Dragon somebody came up with looks about equal parts an Electric and a Dragon, so its STAB physicals would be equally balanced.

    Obviously, how many physical versus special attacks it has SHOULD have something to do with its battle stats; what I'm saying just goes with that.
  17. Espeon65

    Espeon65

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    I really like the idea of a pure bug-type. It looks like a bug, and a cute little one at that. I think it would be unique if it were to change types. i konw it looks like it has "an icicle sticking out of its butthole," but it can just look like a covering of some sort of special material, maybe to help survive the cold before evolving into Syclar, as sandshrewz puts it.
    So Syclar can get the ice typing when it climbs up the moutnain. The Pokedex entry could be something like this: "When adolescent Syclar reach a certain age, they must climb up a mountain and get used to the cold, to evolve into Syclant." or something like that. And let's face it; have you ever seen a bug pokemon you can get on the beautiful, sunny grassland called Route 1? I sure haven't. I support the pure bug-type. I just think it would add a little bit of flavor and uniqueness to our CAPs.
  18. v

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    Syclar is supposed to be Ice/Bug, leave it that way imo
  19. akela

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    When did a pokemon's level up movepool have to consist mostly of STAB?

    A little line of thought, if Syclar is turning into ice-type as it ascends a mountain, reaching colder and colder peaks. What is ice? Frozen Water. The cold heights froze Syclar.

    I am not advocating Syclar be Water, Bug/Water, or Water/Bug. Just offering a different perspective.
  20. SpecsX

    SpecsX

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    I think it's worth pointing out again that Syclar has ice sticking out of its ass. Although an argument could be made that those are leaves, I can't see how the water freezing inside of it would be a logical theory when compared to its sprites and design.
  21. Rediamond

    Rediamond

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    Typically, GameFreak only gives the pre-evolutions of a Pokemon a different typing if there is a significant difference. For instance, Surskit picks up another typing as it loses the wings and gains a new means of transportation, while Trapinch and Swablu have nothing obviously draconian about them. I can't see a large enough difference in the designs to warrant a type-change. The only real reason to change it would be for the sake of changing it.
  22. Pwnemon

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    this will be a long post, but it's mostly data, so bear with me.

    Flavor, unlike competitive, is an art which relies largely on precedent. If we want our mon to look like a hollistic "pokemon," then while it is perfectly fine to make novel concepts, we must respect that there are some patterns Nintendo follows that we must also conform to. As such, this will be a post based entirely on respecting precedent. If your sole concern with Syclar is to do something "original" then i highly suggest you reconsider your philosophy. Precedent is key.

    I went through and found all one-evo pokemon where the last evo had a dual-type. Note: this list will be very useful for like 7 more CAPs so know it well. I got:

    Code:
    Parasect
    Venomoth
    Tentacruel
    Slowbro
    Dodrio
    Dewgong
    Cloyster
    Steelix
    Exeggutor
    Starmie
    Scizor
    Jynx
    Gyarados
    Omastar
    Kabutops
    Ledian
    Ariados
    Lanturn
    Xatu
    Yanmega
    Quagsire
    Honchkrow
    Forretress
    Gliscor
    Weavile
    Magcargo
    Mantine
    Houndoom
    Swellow
    Pelipper 
    Masquerain
    Breloom
    Ninjask
    Probopass
    Medicham
    Sharpedo
    Camerupt
    Cacturne
    Altaria
    Whiscash 
    Crawdaunt 
    Claydol 
    Cradily 
    Armaldo 
    Froslass 
    Bibarel 
    Bastiodon 
    Wormadam 
    Mothim 
    Vespiquen 
    Gastrodon 
    Drifblim 
    Skuntank 
    Bronzong 
    Lucario 
    Drapion 
    Toxicroak 
    Abomasnow 
    Swoobat 
    Excadrill 
    Crustle 
    Scrafty 
    Carracosta 
    Archeops
    Swanna
    Escavalier
    Amoonguss
    Jellicent
    Galvantula
    Ferrothorn
    Golurk
    Bisharp
    Braviary
    Mandibuzz
    Volcarona
    that's a lot of mons, wow. as you can see, this post took time, so if you don't read it i will personally stop liking you forever.

    Now, I decided to separate this list of mons into three distinct groups: Mons that keep both types from their prevo, mons that gain a secondary type upon evolution, mons that switch a secondary type on evolution

    *Wormadam will be on two of these lists since it's weird

    Mons that keep both types:
    Code:
    Parasect
    Venomoth
    Tentacruel
    Slowbro
    Dodrio
    Exeggutor
    Jynx
    Omastar
    Kabutops
    Ledian
    Ariados
    Lanturn
    Xatu
    Yanmega
    Quagsire
    Honchkrow
    Gliscor
    Weavile
    Magcargo
    Mantine
    Houndoom
    Swellow
    Pelipper
    Medicham
    Sharpedo
    Camerupt
    Cacturne
    Whiscash
    Claydol
    Cradily
    Armaldo
    Bastiodon
    Wormadam
    Vespiquen
    Drifblim
    Skuntank
    Bronzong
    Toxicroak
    Abomasnow
    Swoobat
    Crustle
    Scrafty
    Carracosta
    Archeops
    Swanna
    Amoonguss
    Jellicent
    Galvantula
    Ferrothorn
    Golurk
    Bisharp
    Braviary
    Mandibuzz
    Volcarona
    Mons that gain a secondary type:
    Code:
    Cloyster
    Dewgong
    Starmie
    Gyarados
    Forretress
    Breloom
    Probopass
    Crawdaunt
    Froslass
    Bibarel
    Gastrodon
    Excadrill
    Escavalier
    Mons that Swap their Secondary Type:
    Code:
    Scizor
    Masquerain
    Ninjask
    Wormadam
    Drapion
    Mons that swap their primary type:
    Code:
    Steelix
    Now, i'm not just going to point at the numbers and say the first list is much bigger and let that be my whole argument, because otherwise we'd have a bunch of same-typed prevos and this isn't always the best-case scenario. I will point out a couple things though:

    Things which pertain to three-stage families as well:

    • There is no Pokemon that starts off with a mono-typing which proceeds to become its secondary typing. This precludes mono-bug as a possible typing for Syclar.
    • The only Pokemon in the game which swaps its primary type is Onix->Steelix. However, this is a very extreme scenario in that Onix evolves "between gens" and Steelix's primary typing was made after Onix was. For our purposes, there is no precedent for a mon switching its primary typing, so if Syclar is half-something, it has to be half-ice.
    • There is no mon in the game that switches the order of its primary and secondary typings upon evolution. If Syclar is bug and ice typed, the order is Ice/Bug.
    Things which don't necessarily pertain to three-stage families as well, but are rather Syclant-specific:

    • The only primary ice-type pokemon on that list which grows a secondary typing is Snorunt. Shellder, while not a primary ice, gains an ice typing. Only seel gains an Ice type and evolves by level. Both of these Pokemon evolve via stone. This is a soft requirement, unlike the three mentioned above, but flavor precedent would /like/ Syclar to evolve by stone if it is mono-ice. Probably a Leaf Stone idk.
    • No ice-type pokemon swaps its secondary typing upon evolution. IN fact, five pokemon period do this. It's uncommon.
    • Every Bug Pokemon that is not in the first list is primary-bug. Syclant is secondary-bug. Every secondary-bug (read: Armaldo) maintains the typing from its prevo.
    • The vast majority of Pokemon /do/ maintain both types, and while this is not even close to a requirement for all of our prevos, it does mean that established precedent is not to change types unless there's actually a good reason to. Syclar has no real good reason to. It has an icicle, in its butthole.
  23. Pwnemon

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    if ice holds water, either the ice melts or the water freezes. Two substances cannot be touching each other like that and not have the same or extremely similar temperatures.
  24. SpecsX

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    "Extremely similar" does not mean uniform. It could be some sort of icy slush.
  25. Espeon65

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    Pwnemon that's a good point, so i guess mono-bug is out :( But, i still think Water/Bug is a very possible typing, as the water freezes. And the water storage pouch thingy isn't made of ice and full of water, its made of some pokemon skin substance, and full of water that freezes.
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