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Synergy and Cores in the Little Cup Tier

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Woodchuck, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    Like in other tiers, many teams in Little Cup are built around cores: generally two to three Pokemon that have good synergy with each other and can work together to defeat the enemy team. The term "synergy" itself can refer to different ways in which Pokemon can support each other. Synergy can be divided into two main types: offensive synergy and defensive synergy, and the best cores will have a little of both. Given that teambuilding can be one of the more difficult barriers to getting into LC, promoting discussion of cores to help create teams will help make the ladder more active!

    Defensive Synergy is what most people often think of when they see the word "synergy": two Pokemon that have good defensive synergy with each other can switch into each others' weaknesses -- and more importantly, be able to switch into the Pokemon that threaten the other of the pair.

    Here is an example of a core with good defensive synergy:

    [​IMG]
    Porygon @ Eviolite
    Ability: Trace
    EVs: 236 HP / 196 Def / 76 SpA
    Bold Nature
    - Tri Attack
    - Thunder Wave
    - Shadow Ball
    - Recover
    [​IMG]
    Misdreavus @ Eviolite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 36 HP / 120 Def / 80 SpD / 240 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Pain Split

    Porygon is an excellent bulky mon that can wall much of the tier. Its main troubles are with Fighting-types like Mienfoo and Croagunk that can heavily damage it with super effective STAB moves. Misdreavus helps Porygon deal with this by easily switching into Fighting-type moves and burning the troublesome Drain Punch spammers. Porygon, in return, stops Murkrow from destroying Misdreavus and can take out most Dark- and Ghost-types that trouble Misdreavus such as opposing Misdreavus, Gastly, and Houndour.

    Obviously, you can't cover every threat in the tier with two Pokemon. Scraggy gives this pair quite a bit of trouble, so a good addition would be a bulky Fighting-type that can take on Scraggy and other Dark-types to prevent them from muscling through Porygon. Mienfoo is a good choice.

    For contrast, here is a core with good offensive synergy:
    [​IMG]
    Drilbur @ Life Orb
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 212 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Shadow Claw
    [​IMG]
    Sandshrew @ Eviolite
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Night Slash

    Unlike the previous core, this pair has no defensive synergy at all. Both Pokemon have the same typing and roughly similar defenses! However, these Pokemon have offensive synergy: together they can overwhelm their checks. One of the pair can start attacking to weaken its checks before it faints. The other Pokemon can pick up where the previous left off, KO the weakened check, and finish sweeping the other team. This is an interesting quirk of offensive synergy: often, you don't want Pokemon that attack in a variety of ways, because that will result in having a team with a variety of checks and counters. Instead, you will often want to run Pokemon with similar checks so that one can wear down the checks for the other to sweep.

    This core obviously needs Hippopotas to function. It also has trouble with Scarf Snover and Water-type priority, so you're going to need to take that into account when building a team.

    These are merely two examples of cores. There are many cores out there that have both defensive and offensive synergy, and you can have more than two Pokemon in a core! (Four should be pretty much the MOST UPPER LIMIT on the number of mons though. More than that and you're hitting into the territory of teams, not cores >_>) You can find more cores in Furai and Elevator_Music's Smog article, http://www.smogon.com/smog/issue20/lc_cores

    Keeping these concepts of offensive and defensive synergy in your mind for inspiration, go ahead and start discussing cores above or in the article or post cores in your own!
    Good discussion topics include:
    - Threats in the tier that can defeat common cores
    - Potential teammates for a core to shore up its weaknesses
    - Examples/experiences of using a core in a tournament or on the ladder

    Final note: please don't turn this thread into merely a list of cores. By discussing how Pokemon can work together within cores, we can learn more about how threats can be dealt with or supported in the metagame.
    Do not post a core without testing it; this is not a theorymonning thread.

    when posting a core, please include:
    • the full sets of the pokemon in the core
    • what this core excels at doing
    • what this core has trouble with dealing with
    • what additional teammates benefit from / support the core
  2. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    I'm in my phone so I Can't make a full pist but i'll just list some commin cores:
    Defensive
    Lileep+frillish+scraggy counter

    Balanced:
    - staryu/Snover/Murkrow

    Offensive
    - NP missy+ Tirtouga/omanyte
    - mienfoo+chinchou (voltturn)

    Again sorry for the horrible formatting and possibly typos. Making posts on a phone is nearly impossible
  3. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    Just get out in one piece Chieliee.

    Anyways, bad jokes aside, another good defensive core is Ferroseed + Frillish who, between the two of them resist or are immune to every type in the teir besides ground and flying.

    Personally though, Ferroseed's lack of recovery is a real kill joy for me. I have found however, that (especially on Double Rush) teams, Lileep and Frillish provide a great defensive core, frillish resists / is immune to all of lileep's weaknesses and Lileep resists arguably the most important of frillish's weaknesses (being electric). As I alluded to earlier, I use these two on my Double Rush team, and along with the hippodown's incredible physical bulk to help deal with the neutral ground attacks it gives an otherwise 100% offensive team archetype the defensive backbone it wants in a metagame like Little Cup's. Since you stack 3 Ground types, having two immunities to water and an ice resist on mons that can take repeated hits is a life saver. I guess the two signficantly slow down the team, but I like the way it plays more so than regular double rush.

    but yeah; my two would be Ferroseed + Frillish or Lileep + Frillish. Running lileep over ferroseed provides you with a little bit worse typing for the pair but personally i find lileeps access to reliable recovery to be more than worth it.

    EDIT: I didnt read chielee's post past I'm in my phone and he totally put Frill + lilly in before me - in addition to the majority of the cores i use...

    So this post isnt dead I'd like to say that in a similiar vein to Mienfoo + chinchou, mienfoo + larvesta works for as a momentum focused core; and they also have a workable defensive synergy. Because they're both skewed for physical defense, and strong water attacks will destroy it I'd reccomend using it in conjuction with chinchou; making it Chinchou+Mienfoo+Larvesta as your volt turn core. To support that you basically need spinner and at least rocks support. Drilbur and anorith cover both of those, while staryu is arguably a better spinner at the expense of a lack stealth rocks. Good hazard setters include hippopotas, ferroseed, shelmet (kind of), dwebble and others with Ferroseed and dwebble getting a special mention for being able to plant both rocks and spikes. If you opt for extra spike support a spin blocker is also necessary - the best of which (disclaimer, these are the only ghost types you should concider for any team ever. All others are outclassed or just plain bad) are Misdreavus, frillish, and (if you're looking for a more offensive team) drifloom.
  4. Woodchuck

    Woodchuck i am woodchuck
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    I've used both Frillish + Ferroseed and Frillish + Lileep before so I'll weigh in. Honestly, I think Lileep is far superior to Ferroseed in terms of walling Water-types, mostly due to Storm Drain and Recover. On the other hand, Ferroseed and Frillish have that neat synergy of one laying Spikes and the other spinblocking. Frillish also can force switches thanks to TOTAL BS CURSED BODY its rather neat ability.
    Unfortunately, both these pairs have all of their team members being set up on by Scraggy! Mienfoo is obviously a useful Pokemon to run along these Pokemon, and can take advantage of Lileep's ability to check special attackers like Abra. If you run it with Ferroseed, it can use U-turn to force more switches!

    I actually like cores that take advantage of the opponent switching a lot (whether with U-turn or with hazards or whatever) because it limits the opponent's options by discouraging switching, and the less options your opponent has, the easier it is to beat them. This also makes it easier to keep "momentum".

    What cores have you guys been using that manage to maintain momentum against the enemy team? (I am predicting that none of the cores that do this will have bronzor -- it bleeds momentum out of its rusty innards x_x)
  5. mikel

    mikel frizy will carry ocn
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    I used to run 3 Attack Natu with U-turn in combination with defensive Mienfoo and Choice Scarf Chinchou. It was pretty darn good at keeping momentum, but I have no illusions of it being particularly good, beaten fairly well by Misdreavus, which is why I ran an Eviolite Houndour.

    Fast Natu gave me the ability to check defensive (or otherwise non-max Speed and Stone Edge) Mienfoo, as well as doing considerable damage to Timburr, while countering Ferroseed and Bronzor and KOing Ferroseed with Heat Wave and 3HKOing Bronzor.

    Natu (open)
    Natu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 200 SAtk / 200 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Psychic
    - Heat Wave
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - U-turn


    Bulky Mienfoo isn't really worn down by entry hazards due to Regenerator and gave me a solid counter to most DD Scraggy. Knock Off lets the core's U-turns and Volt Switches do considerably more, stacking up with Stealth Rock damage. Finally, I ran Hi Jump Kick on it over the standard Drain Punch to let me always OHKO DD Scraggy, which is otherwise a massive threat.

    Mienfoo (open)
    Mienfoo @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    Level: 5
    EVs: 156 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SDef / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature
    - Hi Jump Kick
    - U-turn
    - Fake Out
    - Knock Off


    Choice Scarf Chinchou isn't amazing, but hits a lovely 24 Speed, letting it outspeed +1 Magnemite and Dratini, as well as +2 Tirtouga, and KO them all (when not holding Eviolite). Checking Tirtouga is huge, and just using Volt Switch lets me keep momentum if they play safe and switch out. It's weak to Diglett, but eh, with Team Preview it's often fairly obvious when it'll come out, and it's OHKOed by either of Ice Beam and Hydro Pump. Being resistant to Flare Blitz and immune to Wild Charge really helps against Ponyta too.

    Chinchou (open)
    Chinchou @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    Level: 5
    EVs: 228 SAtk / 220 Spd / 52 Def
    Modest Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunderbolt


    Seeing as this core is weak to Misdreavus, especially Calm Mind RestTalk Misdreavus, I ran an Eviolite Houndour, which with prediction checks every variant reasonably well, as +0 Hidden Power Fighting never OHKOes. SubRoost Murkrow also beats most Misdreavus (sadly again requiring some prediction) and it really benefits from the racked up damage the core causes. It can also check Double Rush, to which this core is very weak, but yeah, it's really a gaping hole that the rest of the team needs to fill.



    Double Rush cores are just about the hardest to deal with in the metagame, as very little can check the duo and not be taken out easily by teammates. Choice Scarf Snover switching out takes a minimum of 50% from offensive Munchlax, and Porygon fares little better, taking 46%. Even if not using Munchlax, something like Frillish can easily switch in—Porygon/Snover is forced to use an Ice-type attack—take the resisted attack easily, and Recover/Scald/Will-O-Wisp. Specially defensive Lileep in sand is not even a guaranteed 3HKO with Ice Beam from Choice Scarf Porygon, and can Recover and Toxic to stall it out.
  6. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Keep up the good work guys! One core that I've really enjoyed using was on one of my better teams, Tirtouga + Magnemite + Drilbur. On this team, I wanted to employ Drilbur and Tirtouga's insane offensive prowess...both are some of the best sweepers in the tier. I then realized two of their best checks...BRONZOR and FERROSEED...are entirely smashed by Magnemite. Furthermore, Magnemite checks Lileep which neither of them like, along with making my offensive pair possess two Murkrow checks, which is cool. Tirtouga does not like entry hazards, Croagunk. or Chinchou...Drilbur handles that. Drilbur does not like Pokemon such as Hippopotas, which Tirtouga handles. The three Pokemon together offensively cover a ton of Pokemon and are really a menace to reckon with.

    Of course, I require Sand for Drilbur, and have a problem with Fighting-type Pokemon...so I have Hippopotas and Misdreavus. I used Croagunk for glue since I was still kind of weak to Scraggy and Shell Smashers...

    but together, the team relied on insane offensive pressure from Tirtouga + Magnemite + Drilbur! There wasn't much that could stop their onslaught.

    However, I am having issues making that team work in BW2...Croagunk seems to be the weak link. Any ideas?
  7. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

    Joined:
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    165
    Balanced Core:Porygon+Koffing+Houdour
    [​IMG]+[​IMG]+[​IMG]

    Koffing
    [​IMG]
    Koffing (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 204 HP / 240 Def / 64 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Clear Smog
    - Fire Blast
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    At first I wanted to try out Koffing,A extremly underrated wall in LC.Koffing boasts the highest defense in LC and Immunity to ground and a resistance to fighting that makes it exelant.Koffing also has acess to clear smog,a move that stops monsters like DD Scraggy and BU Timburr and that also helps it be simply amazing.Fire Blast prevents it from turning into taunt bait,And Willo Wisp criples threats that would be dangerous to this core,Im preety sure no physical attacker in LC exept Cranidos can stop tis lil' guy.And he also is the backbone of this core and provides exelant team support as you will see.

    Porygon
    [​IMG]


    Porygon @ Eviolite
    Trait: Trace
    EVs: 240 HP / 28 SAtk / 240 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Tri Attack
    - Thunder Wave
    - Ice Beam

    Porygon provides exelant synergy with Koffing defensivly,As Pory takes special hits,especialy psychic ones and Koffing takes physical hits especialy fighting types,Why I originaly had Pory in this core is because Pory suffers from the pluege of fighting types as one of his only flaws,So I thought pairing him up with koffing would fix that and it did!Porygon can take many special hits,and then recover stall or simply t-wave.Porygon also especialy takes care of abra most of the time wich is a very big threat to koffing.

    Houndour
    [​IMG]
    Houndour (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 200 Atk / 200 SAtk / 108 Spd
    Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
    - Sucker Punch
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Pursuit

    LO Mixdour is awesome,Trapping,And destroying things left and right.Houndours main job is to trap or eliminate threats to this core like NP LO Missy and more.MixDour appreciates the elminating of ground and fighting hits by Koffing and Helps him back by trapping things like abra.
  8. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    [​IMG]+[​IMG]

    Drifloon @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 200 Atk / 8 Def / 36 SAtk / 196 Spd
    Naughty Nature
    IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
    - Acrobatics
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute
    - Destiny Bond

    Murkrow @ Life Orb
    Trait: Insomnia
    Level: 5
    EVs: 240 Atk / 80 SAtk / 188 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Sucker Punch
    - Heat Wave
    - Dark Pulse / Hidden Power Grass

    This is an offensive core that works very similarly to Double Rush. Except it's Double Bird. Basically how this works is that Drifloon can be sent out to smash something with Acrobatics. At this point your opponent will probably switch in something like a Chinchou, Tirtouga or Magnemite. You take it out with destiny bond, thus removing one of MixKrow's counters for it to sweep late game. Destiny Bond is pretty hard to play right though, and I've struggled with this strategy against some of the better Little Cup Players.
    As for team mates, rapid spin is nice as both are weak to rocks. Also, Croagunk can still be used as another way to check stuff like Chinchou and Tirtouga.
  9. JacobNinja

    JacobNinja

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    Since you have a fighting resist already, consider knockoff/uturn/dpunch/stone edge mienfoo, jolly 36/236/236 eviolite. It is defensive like croagunk, with dpunch and regen to stay alive. It is also a big suprise, hitting muuuch harder than impishfoo
  10. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
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    I remember facing you using the Tirtouga, Drilbur, Magnemite core and i can definatly confirm how good the core is. Drilbur and Tirtouga lure in Bronzor which Magnemite shits on. After Bronzor is gone there is nothing stoping either Drilbur or Tirtouga sweeping.

    as Chielee said Np Missy+Tirtouga is a great offensive core. I used it a lot in bw1 and i think a few little cup players will remember me using it ;) basically Tirtouga is walled by defensive pokemon like Slowpoke, Lileep, Bronzor, Porygon, Croagunk, Chinchou and Ferroseed. Nasty Plot Misdreavus brings another sweeper into the core and can either beat or significantly weaken these pokemon to the point where they can't wall Tirtouga's sweep attempt. In turn Tirtouga can beat pokemon that give Misdreavus trouble like Houndour and Murkrow. The core has good defensive synergy to with Misdreavus resisting the Fighting and Ground-type weaknesses of Tirtouga. Strong Grass-type moves can be a problem and Misdreavus is also quite prone to being Toxic'd thats why Evolite Poison Heal Shroomish is a great addition to provide a Grass and Electric-type resist, a pokemon that can take on bulky waters like Chinchou, a pokemon that can take Toxics with Poison Heal and with acces to Spore and Stun Spore he can give the two sweepers heaps of set up oppurtunites. I personally like to call the core "MissTouga" and i had quite a lot of succes using the team beating a lot of well known Lc battlers and peaking number #3 on the ladder. I don't want to sound like a dick but honestly i probally would of peaked #1 with the team if i hadn't been laddering on the andriod app the whole team due to the app disconnecting/glitching.

    These are the sets from my rmt
    Show Hide


    [​IMG]

    Derp (Shroomish) (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 36 SAtk / 36 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Synthesis
    - Giga Drain
    - Spore
    -Hidden Power [Fire]

    Aahhh Shroomish. Another great defensive pivot for the team. and works great with both Misdreavus and Tirtouga due to being able to absorb Toxic and put to sleep certian threats so i can bring Tirtouga in safely or to stop opposing set up sweepers. Much like its evolution Breloom this thing is as annoying as anything as it can take a +2 X scissor from adamant Drilbur and proceed to spore it. Hp Fire is also a great move that lets me threaten common steel switchins like Magnemite, Ferroseed, and Bronzor. Shroomish aslo has Synthesis for recovery and Giga Drian for damage and recovery so he ussually lasts a while.

    [​IMG]

    Sissy (Misdreavus) (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 240 SAtk / 240 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    This is Sissy the Missy!and forms my core with Tirtouga. Misdreavus can come in on something that it threatens forcing him out and then gain a nasty Plot. From there she is a nightmare! wether it be spamming shadowballs on pokemon that come in. WoWing Pursuit and Sucker Punch users like Stunky or getting Normal and Dark Types with a hidden power. Missy is here to punch holes in the threats stopping Aqua from getting his smash and sweeping. Misdreavus can also Lure in toxic which Shroomish loves for obvious reasons! The evs maximise Speed and Spiecal attack to hit hard and fast while Life Orb gives it some nice spiecal attack.​


    [​IMG]
    Aqua (Tirtouga) (M) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 84 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Aqua Tail
    - Stone Edge
    - Aqua Jet


    And finally we have the MVP! Aqua the Tirtouga is a SMASHING poke if you get my pun ;) ok What Tirtouga does is when the opponent is weakened and there Tirtouga checks are taken out Tirtouga sets up a Shell Smash and starts plowing through teams. His Splash plate helps boost the power of his water moves making Aqua Tail the move of choice. Aqua Tail is used over Waterfall for the power it does making him able to KO majority of pokes after stealth rock damage. Stone edge is just for Coverage as only a few pokes wall Tirtougas Stabs. Aqua jet is the final move as it helps him agianst faster pokes like Drilbur in Sand and Sucker Punch users. after a Smash Tirtouga reaches 36 atk and 22 speed trolling 21 speed pokemons like Voltorb and Diglett, while 36 attack cant be stopped! Given how each team mate helps aid Tirtouga wether it be spreading status, taking out counters, spinning away rocks to keep Sturdy intact, or setting up my own entry hazards Aqua realises this makes his own sacrifice for the team smashing his shell to win the game ;)

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