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"T" Stands For Trouble | Peaked #29

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Reymedy, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    "T" Stands For Trouble






    Hi everybody !


    [​IMG]
    I'm there once again to present you my brand new RMT, the second one !
    (you can find the first one here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4441194.. è_é)

    I realised that I learned a lot by submitting the first team to the community. I improved my vision on the game through the advices of the raters, and I thank them again for their participation to my first team !

    But I'm here to talk about the new one !


    [youtube]shmtI4syAHo[/youtube]
    (them noobies try to copy his swag, they fail)

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    The theme is around "T stands for trouble" song, from my favourite singer Marvin Gaye.
    I found this theme to fit my team.. because damn it is cool and... well... you know...
    No, seriously, because my pokemons are badass (BUT KELDEO), and the "pattern" of the song fits perfectly.
    See as the song starts slowly... imagine a funky guy walking timidly [​IMG].. then after some time he stops giving a fuck at anything and shines of true coolness (around min 1 I believe) just like this [​IMG].
    You don't know where I'm getting at? Well i'm gonna start slowly putting hazards with my timid pokemon, then I'll roll over people with my badass pokemons... (okay I admit, I just wanted to put this song).
    HERE COME THE TROUBLEMAKERZ!​






    The context/Peak :

    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    I'm MistyMint :p
    I wanted to get the reqs to vote for this annoying bug, thus I decided to ladder more than I usually do. I made a total of three accounts, and I always managed to have a win ratio of ~80%
    However, it seems like it's not enough for now (there are games where you lose glicko² by winning, it gives me a furious desire to bang REAL HARD my head on the keyboard)..
    Finally I managed to have the reqs with THIS team (entirely, yes I'm underlining it because I've been disapointed by some pseudo-peak people shout from the rooftops about), this was really not so hard. I peaked #29 in the process, but to be honest in the end it was just a rush to lower my deviation so I lost some couple of stupid matches. I could have done much better, and I'll try to increase this later.
    Anyway, first I played with a classic rain, then with a classic sand.. and then I decided to try these HO teams featuring a Deoxys-D !

    So basically I copied this team http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472620, and I owe alot to this RMT (by this I mean the author AND the contributors).

    But through the games I decided to adapt this team so it can fit my playstyle better. I don't consider myself as a great team builder yet (I'm only playing since October) so I find it logical to rely on classic teams to build my own one, I hope I wont be blamed for that.

    I did well with this team, as well as when I was playing with the “classic” teams, so I am somehow proud of this, proud enough to publish it !​



    The context *BIS* :

    Show Hide
    This team also allowed me to get the reqs for the following suspect, about Tornadus-T and Keldeo. I hadn't much time because my Internet has been down for a long time. So I decided to pick a team I was comfortable with, which would make the games fast.
    Basically I decided to take my past team, and adapt it a little.
    To be honest I had some issues with the Genesect replacement, but I found a good new pokemon to take his slot, a pokemon that I would have considered at the first thought.
    After 80 games, with a 74-11 final result, and on the top of this, I was playing games sometimes 3 by 3. But once my internet shut down and I lost 3 games at once. It was like 75 points that I lost this time :x.
    But I made it, with this very team !

    [​IMG]



    Team Building :


    Show Hide
    I started with that (yes only 5 pokemons, I changed so much the 6th that I wont go through explaining this) :
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Then I decided that Dragonite wasn’t the sweeper I wanted, I switched him for a Terrakion I was more confortable with.
    Along with this decision, Magnezone wasn’t so worthy anymore.
    So I changed him for a pseudo-trapper that could get the other dragons, kill the genies, trap the ghost/psychic that are annoying to Gengar (especially Espeon/Xatu or Starmie) : Weavile !

    Weavile does this job better than any other pokemon. While there are other pursuiters, none of them are as fast as Weavile and benefit from a stab.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG]


    Now, I changed my Starmie to a pure sweeper with Life Orb and then with Scarf, but it was not satisfying me, I wanted moar powar..
    I decided to take Keldeo with me (even if this pony is ugly as fuck).
    And after since it’s the suspect and because another resistance to Psychic was sweet to have, I adopted a Genesect.

    However, now the suspect is over, Genesect is banned, and I was happy to contribute to his penalty.
    Scizor, Genesect's twin, will be the new member. Even if they have nothing in common, I pretty much needed the Steel typing, and there isn't a lot of Steel sweeper, Lucario was really too frail.

    Finally, I decided to get rid of Scizor, he really lacked some coverage. I decided to pick a unic version of Breloom instead.

    This is now the Final Team :


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG]





    The Movesets






    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]





    (What a cewl Black Glasses transition.. Trouble men's privilege)





    He's Shy, but he's tough aswell !
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]

    SHY GUY
    252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    (Timid Nature +Spe, -Atk)
    [​IMG] Stealth Rock
    [​IMG] Taunt
    [​IMG] Spikes
    [​IMG] Magic Guard




    Description :
    Show Hide

    This pokemon sure has A LOT of troubles, and I'm not making his life easier.
    He starts a game, and takes hits like a punching bag...​


    This is the claaaassic Deoxys-D set, I think it’s pretty self explanatory.
    I opted for Magic Guard to not be doomed by faster taunters/prankster.
    I gave him a Tanga Berry to tank some round 1 U-Turn and the +4Def is to give a +SpA to Genesect since usually people lead with their Genesect when it’s a scarf.
    Yes I know it can put me in a dangerous situation, but I never met someone who dared start with his Rock Polish and set up straight. Anyway, for this matter Gengar is here to revenge kill, and the Tanga Berry allows me to take a Bug Buzz.
    So I start with SR and one layer of Spikes, a Genesect down, a Deoxys-D down, and a Gengar ready to trade his life for another pokemon. Not that bad.


    I really wanted to make a HO team with Deoxys-D because you rarely get a bad start if you play decently. Most of the time I get at least two layers of entry hazards and prevent my enemy from laying a single one.
    Deoxys-D lures the magic bouncers so well, Weavile takes care of them and usually, I can start the game 6v5 quite fast.

    I try to not always lead with him, and to not always let him die when he could do better after. His resistance to Psychic and Fighting is indeed really good for the rest of the team, and he can have another chance to shine later in the game. Because people know what you will do with your Deoxys-D, it’s surprisingly easy to anticipate their action and grab an early advantage.

    To sum up, he’s the first step, he’s the pokemon who trades his life to create a convenient configuration for my future sweepers. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand we thank him for that!

    Changed his Tanga Berry for Rocky Helmet ! Useful against Multiscale Dragonite, Focus Sash Terrak, and to get some extra damage, I need that often !







    When it comes to coolness, no one can compete with this guy
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    BADASS SINCE GEN1
    12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe
    (Timid Nature +Spe, -Atk)
    [​IMG] Shadow Ball
    [​IMG] Hidden Power [Fire]
    [​IMG] Focus Blast
    [​IMG] Destiny Bond




    Description :
    Show Hide
    Oh... This is THE set that I discovered in the RMT I mentioned. This set is seriously a masterpiece. Full credits to Kidogo for that !

    While the combination of Focus Sash and Substitute can seem totally retarded, it provides in fact Gengar with everything he needs. With this odd set, he can be useful in every situation. But Kidogo explains it better than me !

    You can revenge kill stuff like Genesect if they try to set-up fast in the game (your enemy won’t find a room to set-up later in theory). Obviously you can usually kill any spinner, bar Starmie, but the star is supposed to be killed by Weavile.

    With the other spinners, here is how it goes: I keep using substitute while they break it, thinking I’m totally dumb, and before the last one (because else it’s obvious) I Destiny Bond. No one ever predicted it this way, they are just so afraid of dealing with a Split Pain Gengar being a substitute, that they will never let you set-up a substitute.

    Focus Sash and HP [Fire] also help you to deal with Scizor, who comes always on you because they think you can’t touch him hard enough.
    Many people think Gengar is a horrible pokemon, who hits not hard, is frail, spin block poorly. This is true, but it won’t remains true if you can adapt your build to the situation, and if you can use your Gengar in a way your enemy won’t predict.
    One thing for sure, with this set, he never let me down, I just have to choose who I need to kill and he usually do the job. Things like Defensive Jirachi under rain that can wall me forever are easier to deal with thanks to Gengar who can come in a Body Slam and set-up a substitute/trade Gengar for Jirachi.
    It is just needed to use Gengar at its full potential, to know since the team viewer, what will be its role. This way you rarely fail at using the tricky ghost.


    * I now changed Substitute for Focus Blast following the advices of Undisputed !





    Once you go Dark, you never come back (I know it doesn't really rhyme)
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    TROUBLEMAKER!
    252 Atk / 32 SpD / 224 Spe
    (Jolly Nature + Spe, -SpA)
    [​IMG] Ice Shard
    [​IMG] Night Slash
    [​IMG] Low Kick
    [​IMG] Pursuit




    Description :
    Show Hide
    Watch how they run away from a Shadow Ball, coming from an astonishing 50 base SpA, what would happen if I use this 120 base Atk.​


    The third member of the “core”. He can come on a Psychic/Dark/Ghost attack that my team attracts and threaten the attacker. I needed a Pursuiter for the Magic Bouncers, Starmie, the Lati@s and stuff like that killing Keldeo/Terrakion/Gengar.

    He also says “hello” to the genies, because these things hit seriously too damn hard, and their speed is not too low either, so they have the potential to destroy a lot of teams.

    After Tiffanyy comment, I gave a shot to Night Slash>Ice Punch, it was okay, so... Thank you for this idea !
    Low Kick is cool to kill Terrakion, Tyranitar, Heatran, Kyurem etc. before they kill you.

    All in all, the coverage these moves offer is almost perfect. The speed that Weavile enjoys is really high; it allows me to threaten a large part of the metagame. He’s the perfect cleaner, and remains an underrated pokemon that performs really well at killing dragons, genies, trapping. I think it’s a really valuable niche for loads of teams.​





    I'm not gonna deny it, this one is not cool.. or maybe..
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    UGLY PONY
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    [​IMG] Hydro Pump
    [​IMG] Surf
    [​IMG] Secret Sword
    [​IMG] Hidden Power [Ice]




    Description :
    Show Hide
    I totally HATE the graphics of the new pokemons.
    This pony is so ugly, so ridiculous... but so strong. I miss the old pokemons, they had more personality. Compare this crap to Rapidash [​IMG]!
    I seriously want to kill this big noosed pony. But whatever…

    I had the shiny star Starmie, now I got the fat pony. He hits harder, Hydro Pump and Secret Sword are also nice but… hell, how to fill these two last slots. I’m wondering if I should change Icy Wind and Hidden Power [Ghost] for Surf and Hidden Power [Ice]. I’m really not using Hidden Power [Ghost] a lot. But Weavile has issues trapping Jellicent if he gets burned so…

    He’s a pretty cool scarfer, especially when I meet a Rain team. They are usually just doomed by the Hydro Pump spamming. With the SR up, the pony can kill a large part of opposing Rain team team.

    I don’t have much to say about the pony… Being able to hit on both side of the Defense is just amazing and a little overpowered. I needed a resistance to Bullet Punch that’s why I switched Starmie for another water pokemon. I don’t know many Scarfers that resist SR, got “mixed” attack, resist Bullet Punch, and annoy Rain teams as much as he does.

    *Thanks DragonUser and Undisputed for their feedback on the set !





    He also got a big nose, but he wears it with class !
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    SWAGON SINCE GEN1
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    [​IMG] Dragon Dance
    [​IMG] Outrage
    [​IMG] Earthquake
    [​IMG] Extreme Speed


    Description :
    Show Hide
    I blew so much money at the casino for this guy, he HAD to be cool.

    Even if this pokemon is not as cool as Gengar, I must admit he's not far from it. Damn ! [​IMG] !
    Another GEN1 Pokemon, I'm so happy ^.^

    Following DragonUser advices, I tried the first Dragon pokemon of the game. I must say that at first I was skeptical.
    But after some testing I realised that Terrakion was a little too "overkill" in this team. Most of the time, it's true he sweeps. But what he sweeps could be swept by Weavile for instance.
    However, Dragonite could come in tough situations and totally save my day !
    When I still have Multiscale, and if that Scarf Keldeo who is totally ruining my team is stuck on something else that HP Ice, I can set two DD and end the game most of the time. This is so... orgasmic... to keep pressing Outrage (well it's not like you can press anything else when you started the rampage... but yes it's still GREAT).
    His resistances are great. Terrakion was increasing my weakness to stuff like Bullet Punch and Mach Punch. Dragonite takes water attacks, grass moves, fighting combo and boost to prepare his rampage.

    Another thing I realised, my Deoxys-D was really good at preventing my opponent from setting SR. This helps Dragonite a lot since it's not rare to be able to keep Multiscale up.

    Moreover, when people revenge kill my Dragonite with I don't know.. A scarfer with an Ice move. I can send my Genesect and get a totally free Rock Polish.
    He also offers me another security net against RP Genesect if Multiscale is up (93% to take an IceBeam).

    A great change, there is no regret.
    I swaped later Fire Punch for Earthquake, to kill stuff like Jirachi under Rain, Tentacruel, Heatran etc.


    *Thanks DragonUser for this great idea !


    Here is the Terrakion I used in the past :
    Show Hide

    Overdose of steroids incoming.
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    IM ALMOST CEWL
    4 HP / 248 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
    [​IMG] Close Combat
    [​IMG] Stone Edge
    [​IMG] Substitute
    [​IMG] Sword Dance




    Description :
    Another Sacred Swordsman trololol. I don’t know who draw him (them) by the way. He almost made a decent job on this one though...

    This is the same set I ran with my past RMT, since I’m comfortable with it, I believe Terrakion rapes a lot of teams and goes well with the rest of the team so far.

    Here again I don’t have much to say about him, I needed someone to hit hard and he does. Classic stuff.
    This set is amazing in the sense that if you get a free turn you can basically adapt your Terrakion to the situation.
    If you need speed, keep using substitute, and if you already outspeed everybody or just want extra power right now, use Sword Dance.

    There are only few pokemon that can both prevent Terrakion and Genesect from setting up, so usually I can easily find a room for one of them.
    You probably all know how this set works, so I’m not gonna waste more of your time explaining obvious things.
    I don’t see which sweeper could replace Terrakion. He’s a real sex machine.
    *Special joke for my few fans*


    *Thanks GengarNemesis for his feedback on the EVs spread !



    This one isn't the coolest ever, to be honest, he's a shroom, but he does KUNG-FU !
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    KUNG-FU SHROOM
    Technician
    252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    [​IMG] Spore
    [​IMG] Mach Punch
    [​IMG] Bullet Seed
    [​IMG] Rock Tomb


    Description :
    Show Hide
    This guy got no arms, and he still punchs like a true champion.[/B].

    Each time I watch this pokemon, and his role on the team I'm like "how the hell could I explain why he is here, I don't even know myself". I'm kidding obviously, but in fact, I must say that this Breloom does not come from theorycrafting around the team AT ALL.
    I just wanted to try it, and so I did. It did work so fine I was amazed myself to say the truth.
    The point is, his coverage is just so good, his Mach Punch is also what the team needs. And overall he's one of the few physical sweepers able to take down bulky water, if not the only one in OU right now.
    Spore gives so much tempo to the team, it's just insane. I don't even need to worry for the slower spinners for instance, I just Spore them. The coverage of Mach Punch is just simply better than Bullet Punch and.. yes there is this last I need to talk you about :

    ROCK TOMB ?

    What the fuck is this right ? This move is no gimmick, and this set is absolutly NO JOKE.
    I didn't want the SD version, I just find is not optimised for the team. I mean, I have enough issues with ScarfTios and all, no need to be condemned to attack with Bullet Seed and Mach Punch only. Moreover Breloom would be a big set-up for Dragonite. I just can't afford this, I can't play around with my frail sweepers, I need to make sure the pokemon against me will get revenged 100%
    The other sweet thing about Rock Tomb is .. TORNADUS-T, yes the next Uber. The idea is pretty simple. You put hazards with deoxys-D as the opposite offense Rain kills you with the Specs Toed. Then you move to Breloom and Spore whatever is incoming. If he switched straight to Tornadus-T, well you can guess that it's a Sleep Talk one already and go to Dragonite for instance. If it's not the case, you can Rock Tomb. My point being, there is not much in a Rain Team that resists Grass. Tornadus-T, Thundurus-T, Ferrothorn it is, you can all rape them (and Jirachi also, well you need to weaken him a little for the Fighting Gem boosted Mach Punch).

    This set is just what I was looking for. Why not Life Orb ? well for instance Breloom barely lives HiddenPower Ice from Scarf Keldeo, you better have him full life, because those 10% will kill you else. In sand, you'll also hate Life Orb recoil from both Weavile and Breloom.
    I don't see why Rock Tomb isn't more used, if not for the accuracy. It does also hit neutraly Lati@s, Amoongus, Celebi etc. this can save the game with a HO, no joke !




    Here is the Scizor I used in the past :
    Show Hide

    The return of the metallic bug, being cool is an art of living for this guy.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    GENEZOR
    252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 SpD
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
    [​IMG] Bug Bite
    [​IMG] Bullet Punch
    [​IMG] Roost
    [​IMG] Sword Dance


    Description :
    Why would you use your Metal Coat to get Steelix [​IMG]... when you can have THIS FREAKING BUG.

    Yey, this pokemon is cool, he has to be here in fact ! I remember how hard it was to catch a Scyther in GSC [​IMG]. But he made me win my first Bug-Catching contest. Of course to get him you have to find a friend... Thankfully I'm not so bad at the Friend-Catching too.

    Hands down, the coolest pokemon in GEN2, fuck you Tyranitar

    So, why did he replace Genesect after the ban ?
    Basically I needed a Steel pokemon, an offensive Steel pokemon.
    I wanted a resistance to Ice and to Dragon, and well it's pretty hard to play in BW without any Steel pokemon. With his typing, he can come on the Scarfed Ice/Dragon moves attracted by the rampaging Dragonite.

    He doesn't need so much speed since he got a strong priority move, and with SD he can break walls quite well.
    Genesect was rolling over offensive teams, Scizor does ok against them, but helps me also a lot against more Stallish teams.

    I didn't chose the CB basically because it doesn't have the same wall breaking power, and I orentied this team to act like a chain of sweepers, not like a Volt-Turning team. I U-Turn and what? I let one of my frail sweeper eat a move ? no thanks :\

    Moreover, people don't really anticipate this set, it's really easy to set-up. I'm always a little disapointed by the coverage, but well, he can't have everything (else he would be with his brother in Uber huehue).

    Evs allow me to kill Tornadus-T at +2 with Bullet Punch after SRock Damages. I'm also able to take a Hurricane from Tornadus-T if my Scizor is full Health.
    The Lum Berry is a really cool item, thanks White symphoni on this point !



    Here is the Genesect I used in the past :
    Show Hide

    Too cool for OU ?
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] @ [​IMG]
    IM ALMOST GONE
    24 HP / 248 SpA / 4 SDef / 232 Spe
    Modest Nature (+SpA, -Atk)
    [​IMG] Rock Polish
    [​IMG] Flamethrower
    [​IMG] Giga Drain
    [​IMG] Ice Beam




    Description :

    Genesect looks like some kind of power ranger/transformer… oh back in the day…

    This pokemon also has some troubles right now "huehue" with all the hate he's taking, this team won't soften it "huehue"².

    Here is the infamous set, from the pokemon that many players (including me ^.^) want to see away from OU.
    Every team must have a way to deal with this guy, but it’s far from being always easy.

    Giga Drain help a lot to mitigate the Life Orb recoil and against fat water pokemon/stuff like Terrakion. The others moves are here for coverage. It’s funny to see that the “flaw” he had was his Speed, but after Rock Polish, he can’t even be beaten at the Speed war by a Scarfed Jolteon >.<
    It’s not always easy to land the perfect set-up, since you need the +SpA and the Rock Polish free turn, but when you do, your enemy better has a dedicated counter.

    To me, his typing is the issue (the icing on the cake), it’s definitely too easy for him to set-up thanks to this near perfect typing. I bet if his typing was different, maybe it wouldn’t have been so strong. Maybe with a typing weak to at least one priority…

    His resistance to Psychic helps a lot along with my two “Sacred Swordsmen”, and well… Let’s use Genesect before telling him “Farewell”.

    *Thanks DragonUser for his EVs spread !

    *Anyway he fits almost anywhere >.<



    Now that you know what's the deal..
    As I said, I've been doing fine with this team. I'm pretty confident with the team composition in itself. I'm more worried about some sets like Keldeo's one. I don't really like to rely on a 80% accuracy stab, but I feel bad dropping a coverage move for Surf.


    Here is for the possible match-up. I stole it ALL from PenguinX post on the CCAT thread.. I hope it's okay and thanks for that ! I honnestly learned alot from you especially !


    Match-up list :


    Show Hide
    Sun Offense:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    This seems to be a good match-up, Xatu needs to be lured and trapped by Weavile and everthing will be fine. It's up to me to "outplay" the enemy here. One thing for sure, usually it depends on if I can lay SR and manage to not let the enemy spin them. A lot of Sun teams run Forretress or Donphan. These two spinners can do absolutly nothing to Gengar. The issue will be the Venusaur. Before I had Starmie, now it's far harder to deal with this sweeper. If my Gengar sash is still up I can trade my Gengar for crucial damages and finish it with Weavile.
    If my Gengar lost his sash, and if Venusaur had a free set-up turn, I am in troubles. But HO usually don't have plenty of ways to deal with this pokemon :\
    Weavile does ~70% with Ice Shard on Venusaur, with some switching to play with the HP Fire and the SR/Spikes damage, it is stil highly manageable if I play it decently enough.
    Now, since I got Dragonite, this match-up is even better for me. I have a security net given his resistances and his boosted Fire Punch. With Lum Berry I can kill Venusaur no matter what happens (I must care of the HP Ice variant, but with Multiscale I can take it, anyway all I need is some LO recoil damage to let Weavile end the job)



    Rain Offense:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Rain is a tough thing. Keldeo rolls over them all, only opposing scarf Keldeo can be though, it's usually really easy for my Deoxys-D to lay entry hazards since they try to start Genesect then switch to Politoed while I'm putting my SR/Spikes.
    It was not easy here to find a room for Terrakion, Dragonite got more chances to set-up and get some kills. Keldeo carries the team on his shoulders most of the time along with Dragonite. I need to scout for the Politoed set, since it's the weakest link, if he's choice or defensive, it gives me some opportunities to play with. Moreover Weavile lighten Keldeo role by being able to land some easy revenge kill on the genies/dragons.
    I need to do a good trade with my Gengar since he won't do much damages under the Rain.
    I'm more worried about the semi-stall Rain to be honest since it's really depending on Gengar ability to trade his life with annoying pokemons (like Jirachi >.<) after blocking the spinner.
    Now with Scizor, I got some issues to hit Bulky Waters, but Bullet Punch after a SD will hit pretty hard.
    Buuuuuuuuuut, I changed him for Breloom, this match up is ALLRIGHT now !


    Sand Offense 1:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    It's one of the match-up I prefer, because I played this type of teams alot, I have usually a good feeling at predicting them. They don't have much to contain Deoxys-D ability to lay hazards. Moreover they have issues taking the combination of Fighting/Ice moves from Weavile.
    Keldeo crushs them quite hard also, Genesect has some possibilities to set up and can end the game fast this way supported by hazards. Now Scizor lose a lot of coverage in comparison of Genesect, but can hit crucial targets like Stoutland easily with no set-up.

    Sand Offense 2:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Same goes as above, even better since Tyranitar is really easy to play with. They usually bring him to Deoxys-D and after the kill I just have to send Weavile . Weavile goes rampage mode along with Keldeo there.
    Excepted if I'm outplayed badly, I should be able to get it.


    DragMag:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I didn't meet alot of them... but I really wish I had. Weavile is the worst thing they could meet, he even kills Magnezone with Low Kick (I must scout to see if it's the scarfed version though). SR usually deals a nice chunk of damage to them. I usually laugh at them trying to set-up, knowing that I'll just have to revenge them with Weavile. Genesect can take a +1 Outrage from Dragonite, and set-up. The priorities will be very useful, but it's all about Weavile and Scarf Keldeo here, the other mates are only here to secure their way !
    My own Dragonite can end the game if he manages to set-up.
    Not really a match-up I'm afraid of.

    Heavy Offense:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    It's up to our Deoxys-D, mine got Magic Coat so usually I'm fine. My focus sash Gengar helps me alot here to kill the opposing Gengar in a 1v1. I'm fairly confident in my sweepers. This match-up can go either depending on the enemy team, but Weavile is a nice asset to the team given his speed and his priority.
    Scizor helps here, the priorities will be crucial, and a bulky Scizor is always hard to kill.
    Breloom now, is easier to kill, but the priorities hit stronger and he can't be walled as easily. I usually win those games from my experience.

    Baton Pass:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I lead Weavile, I spam Ice Shard.. I could also try to taunt with Deoxys-D but they usually get White Herb on Ninjask so..
    I also got Extreme Speed, so Dragonite can try to boost on the Protect and hit after, I must beware of this kind of playing though.. A good player can Substitute instead of Protect on the DD and get the upper hand.
    It's not really a match-up I bother mind. I'm not saying it's not strong, it is, but it's not something I should over-adapt my team to.
    Scizor Bullet Punch is a new strong asset now against them. Same goes for Breloom.​








    Defensive Threat List :

    Show Hide

    [​IMG] Abomasnow : - SubSeed : Gengar HP Fire/Breloom Mach Punch/Keldeo Secret Sword/Weavile Low Kick
    [​IMG] Amoonguss : - Physically Defensive : Gengar HP Fire / Dragonite set-up / Breloom Spore before he does
    [​IMG]Blissey : Scizor/Keldeo Secret Sword/ Weavile / Dragonite / Breloom
    [​IMG] Bronzong : Breloom Spore Mach Punch / Dragonite Set-up / Gengar
    [​IMG] Celebi : Dragonite set-up / Gengar Shadow Ball HP Fire / Weavile trap
    [​IMG] Chansey : Breloom / Keldeo Secret Sword / Weavile / Dragonite
    [​IMG] Cresselia : Breloom Spore / Weavile
    [​IMG] Dragonite : Dragonite / Weavile / Keldeo HP Ice / Breloom Rock Tomb
    [​IMG] Empoleon : Gengar Focus Blast / Keldeo Secret Sword / Weavile Low Kick / Breloom
    [​IMG] Espeon : Gengar Shadow Ball / Dragonite / Weavile
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn : Breloom / Gengar HP Fire Focus Blast / Dragonite set-up if not Leech Seed, I usually scout with Breloom to not lose Multiscale so easily / Keldeo Secret Sword / Weavile Low Kick
    [​IMG] Forretress : Gengar HP Fire / Dragonite set-up / Keldeo HPump / Breloom Spore this dude
    [​IMG]Gastrodon : Breloom / Dragonite Set-up Outrage / Keldeo Secret Sword 2HKO SDef versions.
    [​IMG] Gliscor : Breloom / Keldeo HP Ice HPump / Weavile Ice Shard
    [​IMG] Gyarados : Nothing is SE, he is easily killed by non SE moves and SR though.
    [​IMG] Heatran : Gengar Focus Blast / Dragonite set-up and EQ , Weavile Low Kick (120 Base Power against Heatran)/ Keldeo HPump Secret Sword / Breloom Mach Punch
    [​IMG]Hippowdon : Breloom / Dragonite is untouched if no Ice Fang / Keldeo HPump / Weavile Ice Shard (I miss Ice Punch here).
    [​IMG] Jellicent : Breloom / Weavile / Dragonite Set-Up / Gengar Shadow Ball
    [​IMG] Jirachi : Breloom Boosted Mach Punch if weakened/ Dragonite Set-Up EQ / Night Slash from Weavile does also a ton. The issue being the Body Slam spamming, you need Gengar if he's not dead to open a sure way for a sweeper.
    [​IMG] Kyurem-Bor not to B : Breloom Mach Punch / Gengar Focus Blast / Dragonite Outrage / Keldeo Secret Sword / Weavile Low Kick
    [​IMG] Landorus-T or not to T : Keldeo HPump HP Ice / Weavile Ice Shard
    [​IMG] Latias : Dragonite Outrage (if Multiscale is up) / Gengar Shadow Ball (Sash up) / Weavile
    [​IMG] Mew : Dragonite set-up / Gengar Shadow Ball / Weavile Night Slash Pursuit (need to scout his set, and it's ok, I got Magic Coat for the lead version)
    [​IMG] Ninetales : Dragonite Set-Up / Keldeo (it's not a big threat given how Dragonite set-up on him and the SR damages, but he can be a little annoying). He also takes a ton from my physical attacks.
    [​IMG] Politoed : Dragonite set-up / Breloom / Keldeo is pretty safe against him (same as above, a little annoying but he can't do too much)
    [​IMG] Porygon2 : Breloom Spore and tries to kill / Keldeo Secret Sword (he's annoying to say the least, but beside staying here he can't do too much, care about Trick Room)
    [​IMG] Quagsire : Breloom, Breloom, keep him alive of it's gonna be harder.
    [​IMG] Rotom-H : Dragonite Set-Up / Keldeo HPump
    [​IMG] Rotom-W : Dragonite Set-Up / Keldeo Secret Sword if no TWave / Breloom
    [​IMG] Sableye : Keldeo HPump / Gengar (funny because he always tries to taunt me here)
    [​IMG] Skarmory : Gengar HP Fire / Dragonite Fire Punch / Keldeo HPump
    [​IMG] Starmie : Gengar Shadow Ball / Weavile / Breloom
    [​IMG] Tangrowth : Gengar HP Fire / Dragonite Set-Up / Keldeo HP Ice
    [​IMG]Tentacruel : Destiny Bond, Gengar needs to lower him enough to force him to run away once I die(with Hazards still up he won't be able to go back). For instance after Gengar death (if DBond fails, that happened once), I can switch to Dragonite and force him to switch). He makes me wonder, maybe I should use EQ>Fire Punch (helps with Heatran too). I put him in Orange, but Destiny Bond is for him, it's up to me to play it well.
    Now I got Breloom for this dude ! And EQ on Dragonite !
    [​IMG]Tyranitar : Breloom / Gengar Focus Blast / Keldeo Secret Sword HPump/ Weavile Low Kick
    [​IMG]Vaporeon : Breloom / Dragonite Set-Up / Keldeo is safe and can Secret Sword
    [​IMG]Xatu : Dragonite Set-Up / Gengar Shadow Ball / Weavile
    [​IMG]Wobbuffet : Breloom Spore this guy and kills him / Dragonite DD and attacks when he Encore / Weavile Night Slash / Gengar can play around with Shadow Ball / DBond when Miror Coat.
    [​IMG] Whimsicott : Priorities / Dragonite set-up and Outrage / Gengar HP Fire / Weavile





    I hope this team will be used by some people, and I hope they will enjoy playing it at least as much as I enjoyed playing with the RMT in Smogon.



    Considered changes :

    The section to keep tabs on what people suggest to the team.

    - Changing Keldeo move set : DONE *Thanks to DragonUser and Undisputed
    - Optimize items/EVs (any pro tips would be good to hear o.o) : MOSTLY DONE
    - Trying DD Dragonite > Terrakion as suggested by DragonUser ! DONE
    - Trying CB Tyranitar > Weavile as suggested by Undisputed ! DENIED
    - Trying to fit Focus Blast on Gengar as suggested by Undisputed ! ACCEPTED
    - Jellicent > Gengar as suggested by Ganj4lf DENIED (did not fit the team's dynamic as well as Gengar)
    - Changing Scizor to a more offensive version as suggested by GengarsNemesis, RaikouLover : DENIED
    - Night Slash > Ice Punch as suggested by Tiffanyy : ACCEPTED
    - Changing Deoxys-D item as suggested by SilentStorm : DONE
    - Lucario > Scizor as suggested by Dwayne : DENIED FOR NOW (I think it would need a little shift of the team, but I don't know where)
    - Sableye > Gengar as suggested by Letiez : DENIED
    - Scarf Scizor as suggested by Leftiez : DENIED
    - Lum Berry on Scizor as suggested by White Symphoni : ACCEPTED
    - Go back to my old Keldeo's set as suggested by Haineskid712 : DENIED


    Replays :​


    Show Hide


    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4562337 *Against HAIL by MJB (missclik by me turn 9 >.<)

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4562703 *Against a Sand Offense by NIGGAZ IN PARIS (terrible play on the Starmie VS Stoutland part, I realised I had wrong EVs so I did almost throw the game after with Genesect)

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4602897 *Against a HO/Deoxys-D/Gengar by Genescroto (a team pretty similar to what is suggested to me since it has Tyranitar>Weavile and Latias>Terrakion)

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4603519 *Against a funny team by McLuvving -LOL- (He had a decent rating with a kinda gimmick team, he did some strange plays, I didnt realise the -Spe on Keldeo in the end :<)

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4761675 *Against alkdjf, Dragonite and Weavile getting the job done.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4761989 *Against krapperz, a sun team where Gengar does his job, Dragonite goes rampage and Weavile is cleaning

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4762169 *HERE IS THE GAME YOU "NEED" TO SEE ! Against a classic rain team by Quintessential, a really good game where each of my pokemons pulls their weight, he totally outplayed my Gengar though (and these scalds >.<)

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent4768962 *Against OJB, a really tough fight where I can safely say that Gengar won the game.​

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent5234391 *Against Mini Me, the first replay where you can see Scizor, setting up on a Gliscor like np ;)

    With Breloom :

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7665197 *Against Done Already ?, a really close game, where from a situation that seems really complicated, my team can find a reliable path to the win. A good fight.

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oucurrent7665910 *Against Metro37 using a classic offense Sand, I get my Deoxys-D tricked in the start which is always annoying.





    But for now, no moar trouble for you mister rater/viewer,

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]


    Team, last glance :



    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]



    Oh no dude, I don't forget you, my devoted musician ! You know who you are ;)

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]





    *Importable, keep the nicks if you please ;)*

    Show Hide
    SHY GUY (Deoxys-Defense) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Magic Coat
    - Taunt
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes

    BADASS SINCE GEN1 (Gengar) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Focus Blast
    - Destiny Bond

    UGLY PONY (Keldeo) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Hydro Pump
    - Secret Sword
    - Surf

    I GOT NO ARMS (Breloom) @ Fighting Gem
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Spore
    - Mach Punch
    - Bullet Seed
    - Rock Tomb

    TROUBLEMAKER! (Weavile) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 32 SDef / 224 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Night Slash
    - Ice Shard
    - Low Kick
    - Pursuit

    SWAGON SINCE GEN1 (Dragonite) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Dragon Dance
    - Outrage
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake

  2. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
    is an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Pyramid Kingis a Past WCoP Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
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    Hey there,

    This is a pretty cool offensive team, but I do see ways that it can be improved. First of all I would recommend changing Keldeo's moveset to Hydro Pump / Surf / Hidden Power [Ice] / Secret Sword. This may seem like a somewhat minor change, but it can really help Keldeo do its job better. Hydro Pump is used when the extra power is needed, but is a pretty awful move to spam. For this reason, Surf would be your goto STAB, especially early game. Hidden Power Ice is also stronger than Icy Wind vs dragons, and the lack of HP Ghost shouldn't be a huge issue as you have a Pursuiter. An effective optimization for Genesect's moveset would be 24 HP / 248 SAtk / 4 SDef / 232 Spd. This gives Genesect a LO number, while still outspeeding relevant threats. The 4 SP Def EVs prevent other Genesects from getting a Sp Attk boost vs you, which can be helpful in some situations.

    Ok so now onto your team as a whole. Like you mentioned Sun looks very dangerous to play against, particularly Venusaur. While you do have a few safety nets, a well played Venusaur can be very troublesome to face. To help with this I would recommend Dragon Dance Dragonite > Terrakion. Dragonite is an often forgotten threat in this metagame and can help a lot with your weakness to Rain/Sun. Dragonite still has a lot of the wallbreaking potential that Terrakion has, but has the added bonus of being a very good check to Venusaur. Anyways, hope I helped gl.

    set (open)

    [​IMG]
    Dragonite (M) @ Lum Berry Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Outrage
    - Fire Punch
    - Dragon Dance

  3. undisputed

    undisputed
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Frontier Lackeyis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,116
    Hey!

    Solid hyper offense team. There are a couple changes you can make that I think would make a big difference.

    First, Weavile isn't very good. Even though it has good coverage moves, it's not powerful enough to KO everything it needs to. To keep that team slot roughly the same, I'd suggest Choice Band Tyranitar. Adamant with 100 Speed EVs would be my recommendation. Fast enough to outspeed relevant threats like Defensive Politoed, Skarmory, and Jellicent. It can pursuit Starmie for you since that is a pain for Deo-d Offense teams. Additionally, it will give you a weapon against weather teams. As long as you don't get greedy and let Dugtrio trap you, Pursuiting Ninetales should win every game against sun teams. You can also kill Xatu which sometimes shows up on Sun teams. Rain teams are obviously a little harder, but limit your switches and look for the opportune moment to get Tyranitar into Politoed.

    Use the EV spread dragonuser recommended for Genesect. It is the best one out there.

    Hidden Power Ghost on Keldeo is not worth it in my experience. I'd rather see you use HP Ice and Surf. Hydro Pump is notoriously unreliable, and I'd be doing you a disservice if I allowed you to leave without Surf.

    Finally, on Gengar, definitely fit Focus Blast on there somewhere. It's so valuable for hitting Tyranitar, Terrakion, and things that resist Shadow Ball. Destiny Bond is a cool move. I've experimented with Sub Leftovers Destiny Bond and had some success. Tentacruel thinks it will get a KO, but you can take it with you. Another alternative that I've had good success with is Taunt. Great at stopping opposing Deoxys-D teams, and you never know when you might need to stop Rock Polish Landorus.

    Good luck man!
  4. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2011
    Messages:
    130
    Ok, first off on your terrakion set the EV's are off for sub-salac. You should be runnning 4 Hp/252 Atk/252 Spd and 30 defense IV's. This allows you to get the salac boost in 3 subs and at 25% rather than at 1%. That's all I really got lol, I really should have a better rate since HO is my favorite playstyle but oh well, other than that nice team and sweet cores!! luvdisc'd

    Edit: Going to give this team a whirl on PS see if I come up with some more suggestions.
  5. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,504
    Thanks everybody for all your lucid feedbacks !
    I'm gonna reply to each other one by one to make it at least as clear as your comments were :p


    @DragonUser :
    Show Hide


    Of course you helped !

    - For the Keldeo's moveset, I guess it was just a matter of time before someone convince me to change it. I was willing to have an external opinion. I'm just gonna listen to your opinion and change it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this point.

    - The Genesect spreads seems optimal, same as above. I follow your advice without any doubt, thanks again.

    - For the Dragonite. This point gives me some worries. I can't deny how much this Dragonite will be valuable against Sun Teams. But Terrakion was a real beast overall.
    Since the Dragonite I tried (Team Building) was a CB, I'm gonna try yours (nice sprite by the way). It probably will be a good asset against Rain teams aswell, and I believe Dragonite has a good chance of surviving a boosted IceBeam from RP Gensect... this can come handy quite often... I'm afraid this might urge me to get a spinner... I need to try this pokemon make up my mind, thank you for this idea !



    @Undisputed :
    Show Hide


    Thanks ;)

    - About Tyranitar > Weavile. I was pretty sure this would have been proposed to me sooner or later and I didn't want to face this dilemma. Tyranitar is indeed a little more powerful (+14 base Atk), and is FAR more bulky so it should be less delicate to play around the trapping. However his speed is was bothered me when I chosed the pursuiter.
    I know how strong is the Keldeo/Tyranitar duo. I'll give it a try, along with the Dragonite replacement (since Dragonite can't really kill a bulky Volcarona like Terrakion could, but Tyranitar could do the same job while Weavile couldn't so...).
    I'm not gonna talk about the ability to switch the weather, since it's obviously strong in the current metagam. But I do lose my priority to deal with the Genies/Dragons.
    I have no idea what I should choose. I'll try it, same as for Dragonite. Thanks.

    - I'm more than persuaded that I'll use this spread now ^.^

    - Same goes for Keldeo, I'm happy to hear accurate and detailed opinions on this point, thank you.

    - If I leave Weavile, I'll definitely consider this point. I'm thinking about Focus Blast > Substitute. About Taunt, I must admit I never had the idea to use it (in this Gen at least). I'm not sure this could fit here (or maybe if I drop Magic Coat on Deoxys-D), Gengar slots seem overloaded and I don't see myself giving up one of the moves I'm using. I'm gonna try Focus Blast > Substitute. It seems good to me, thank for your ideas !



    @GengarsNemisis
    Show Hide



    Oh I'm totally sorry for this point I look ridiculous :p
    In fact I'm using the spread that I saw in "The Art Of Peer Pressure" team on Terrakion. I'm gonna fix this point fast because this is indeed an important point, thank you for noticing that and for your feedback. I hope you will enjoy playing this team and I'm impatient about your future opinion after trying it ;) !




    * I included most of the changes mentionned above in the "considered changes", some of them went straight in the team !
    * I added some replays that I forgot to include yesterday, there are some with Starmie>Keldeo.
    * I'll edit the Importable later when I'll have access to Showdown (wy no showdown at work :'< ) : FIXED
  6. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,504
    Consider it as a bump.

    I did the tests for all the great suggestions you gave me and here are my conclusions :

    - Keldeo moveset is fixed, and it's now more stable.
    - Genesect's spread is perfect.
    - I fixed Terrakion's spread.

    - I'm now using Focus Blast>Substitute on Gengar are it was definitely a wise idea.

    For the other changes :

    - I will not change Weavile for Tyranitar. I gain just a little of power, and lose alot of speed and of adaptability. Weavile does already all that Tyranitar can offer me in trapping.
    Moreover, Tyranitar just doesn't work along with Focus Sash Gengar. Often I trap someone, then put Gengar and die miserably after the Sash activates because of the Sand Storm.
    It also broke Dragonite's Multiscale several times during my tests.
    The lack of priority hurts, Weavile is far from being as bad as you seemed to assume, he does a better job here in my opinion than Tyranitar. He can come in Gengar, and kill it by outspeeding the Gengar, same goes for Starmie. Tyranitar won't do it so easily.
    If my Gengar set was different, maybe Tyranitar could be great, but here he was just a burden most of the time. Sorry Tyranitar :\


    - About Dragonite > Terrakion. I seriously have no idea if this is better or not, I'll keep testing it. Dragonite is slow though, Terrakion can grab more speed with the Salac, and with two moves he's more threatening than Dragonite with three. Sure Outrage is strong, but Steels are evrywhere and most of the type I boosted my Dragonite and let him die breaking one wall. I feel like Terrakion was less easily handable for my opponent.
    But I liked Dragonite also because he snowballs really hard after some boosts. I need more tests, I'm balancing.


    If possible, I'd like to hear some other opinions.
    Thank you again those who posted, and those who are gonna post :D


    EDIT : Added some replays with Dragonite : There is one I want future viewers/raters to see !
    EDIT* : I'm finding Dragonite more and more attractive...
    EDIT** : @Youngjake93 : No way I give up Hidden Power [Fire], I see what you're trying to say, but if I lose my Sash on Gengar in such a situation I'm just stupid and I played bad. I got Magic Coat and Taunt, my Sash wont be broken so easily, at least not if I take care of it. A Flash Fire boost? to Heatran? like who cares, I dent him with Focus Blast, and then revenge kill him easily. On Chandelure? same deal I kill him with Gengar, if he's scarfed then I bet he's stuck on Shadow Ball and this is free set-up (anyway if my sash is up I just kill him, scarfed or not).
    Here Gengar is not meant to sweep, but to save my entry hazards and lure usual counters. I'm really not attracted by all the options you listed, Hidden Power [Fire] is the move that made me play Gengar. I don't see after all the games I played, how I could have done without it.
    But thank you for the feedback, you should try it, I'm sure you'll be impressed youself ^^
    EDIT*** : Sitting at 1900 ACRE 2k glicko and 80 deviation, imma try to get these reqs #77 ladder MistyMint (I'm still playing with Dragonite, I'm getting more and more confidence with it). I only played 25 games since I dont have much time but I think I got a decent shot there.
  7. youngjake93

    youngjake93

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,549
    I LOVE Focus Sash Gengar, but putting HP Fire on it is a horrible idea. You lose in speed to Lati@s, Espeon and Froslass. You still lose to Scizor if your Sash isn't intact. It doesn't help against anything other than Scizor except possibly Venusaur. You have to give up a whole moveslot. Plus there is the off-chance that you could accidentally give a Flash Fire boost away.
    Thunder or Sludge Bomb would be a better spot in that slot. Thunder obliterates things like Politoed, Gyarados, Vaporeon, Skarmory, and all sorts of other things that would normally give you an unfavorable match-up. Thunderbolt can be used for more consistency of course, but you mainly want the move to counter rain. Sludge Bomb does 12.5% more damage to neutral opponents and has an amazing 30% chance to poison that makes a huge difference. 12.5% chopped off of their HP can make a huge difference between 2hkos and 3hkos.
    If for some reason, you don't like those options, then Taunt/Icy Wind have good synergy with Destiny Bond. Protect, Clear Smog/Haze, heck even Trick/Thief would all work with a Focus Sash set. Or you could even put Substitute back on if you really want to.
  8. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    784
    So here I am. The first thing that attracted my attention upon seeing your team is the weakness to Scizor. Terrakion and Weavile just lose to it, and Gengar will, too, if Sash is broken. Deoxys-D has Tanga Berry, sure, bit it can't do jack anyway, and if Scizor U-Turns to a Spinner that can hurt Gengar somehow (Tentacruel, for example) you're in a very bad position. Keldeo and Genesect are both without recovery, and will be worn down even to resisted U-Turns, or Superpowers if the opponent is good enough to predict correctly. Also, 4 out of 6 of your pokemons don't enjoy Mach Punches, too, so I'd say you have quite a problem with priority attacks.

    Water attacks seem problematic, too. Scarf Keldeo can spam Hydro Pumps in rain and the only thing you can do is use your own Keldeo to stop that rampaging pony (Dragonite is 2HKO'd after Rocks), and even with that you need to rely on a speed tie since even the pony is 2HKO'd.

    So, I know that this may sound weird, but Jellicent solves all of these problems suddently. I know, that Gengar set is sexy and I even like it a lot, but it relies entirely on surprise factor to do its job, and if the opponent manages to lay some SR or set up Sandstorm before you can surprise kill its Starmie or whatever, you're in a quite big problem. Jellicent, on the other hand, is incredibly bulky on the special side, and can work as a defensive pivot, spinblocker that is hardly beaten by any spinners (Starmie needs LO and Thunder hitting twice to 2HKO). Pursuiters can't switch in to remove it since they will take WoW on the switch, and since CB Scizor's Pursuit isn't even a 2HKO, they will be worn down and eventually beaten with Scald. Other than that, Jellicent can take Bullet Punches for ages, is immune to Mach Punch (although it loses to Breloom and Conkeldurr with Payback, but Lum DDNite can conveniently handle both), is almost completely immune to Bullet Punch Lucario, that is gaining popularity to beat Kerrakion, and is the ultimate stop to Keldeo, since it's immune to its STABs, and takes 48% max from a SE Specs Hidden Power (meaning you can just switch out after the first one and take advantage of it). While it may seem weird to use such a defensive pokemon in an offensive team, it covers so many weaknesses that surely deserves a mention. It could work or not, but I'd give it a try regardless.

    Jellicent (open)
    [​IMG]
    Jellicent @ Leftovers | Water Absorb
    Calm | 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD
    - Scald
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Ball / Ice Beam
    - Recover

    Please use a Male version of it since the Female sprite is so ugly ç_ç


    For the rest of your team, previous raters had covered pretty much it has to be said I guess, so...props for using Weavile and good luck! Hope my rate helped somewhat.
  9. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    @Ganj4lf :

    - About Jellicent > Gengar. This is what I didnt really want to hear to be honest. It's hard for me to answer to that. All your points make sense, don't get me wrong, this is a well though change. Moreover you pointed the Bullet Punch Weakness that oddly, nobody else talked about.
    However I'm well aware of that, and it seems weird, but Gengar is my weapon against these Bullet Punch. With Dragonite now in the team (yes it's unfair in fact for you to rate, I'm sorry for this point), and Terrakion out, I have another answer to Scizor.
    So basically if there is Tentacruel and Scizor, I let my Gengar be killed by Tentacruel as I Destiny Bond, OR I killed both of them if Scizor came first to Bullet.
    If he didn't come I just kill Tentacruel and I handle later Scizor. If he kills Keldeo with Superpower it's fine for me, as I can set-up with Dragonite or Genesect after. Most of the time, they never Superpower because they are afraid of that. By the way I did put a replay in which I fight a Tentacruel and a Lucario under rain, and I even failed to kill Tentacruel with Gengar (but was able to put enough pressure so he doesn't spin).

    BUT, Jellicent patchs a alot of weakness and is a great partner of Weavile. I'll try it, but I'm afraid it doesn't fit the idea I had of how I wanted to play this team. This is the sole reason why I think I probably won't make this change.
    I prefer play high risk high reward with Gengar, than break the dynamic of the team with Jellicent. Even if this forces me to play carefully. I was aware of this point when I built the team.

    So thank you for the rate, to tell you the truth, for the Defense of the Titan, I posted a team with both Jellicent and Weavile already. So I'm really not lying when I say that I agree it's good. But Gengar, while sometime less reliable, is the key of many games. Yes if I lose the surprise factor, it's another story, but I like it this way.
    I even met people who knew the RMT, I still managed to win. Well you can know it has Destiny Bond, sometimes people spot it, but I can play with the fear of the Destiny Bond aswell.

    I can guess you took time to think about an improvement given the change you propose me. And the answer I can give you isn't perfect.
    For now I'll stick to Gengar, mainly because I think I can get the reqs with this team, and because I'm really used to Gengar.
    I will put it in the considered changes, mainly to offer your change to the people who don't like this Gengar.
    I'll still try it, it may not change the dynamic of the team as much as I thought.


    ///


    I want to say that I'll change Terrakion for Dragonite. It is definitely a GREAT change. I must thank DragonUser for that, really :)
    I did some ladder tonight (around 7 games), and I did nothing but win, I'm now at more than 2k glicko, so I just need to lower my deviation for now.

    I keep learning about this team. I keep learning about how Weavile is in fact an insane pokemon. Killing stuff like Breloom with only Ice shard is just incredibly useful.

    So here is the proof for my ladder, I'll keep trying to increase it to show how strong this team can be, given what I do with it as a beginner in the game.
    [​IMG]


    EDIT : It goes pretty fast, it's been like 20games that I only win. I'm #29 right now.
    EDIT : I got the reqs for OU current now... job has been done, and this team deserves a lil more love imo :<
  10. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    /!\ Awkward double post !

    Since it's soon the end of the Suspect for Genesect, I'm pretty sad to see that this team was so unpopular.
    It has been proved that this team could shine, and I don't even consider myself close from being a good battler yet.

    So yes, bumping with the "peak", just to attract people. And if the "peak" can also prove that I'm not using these pokemons just because I like them, but because they fulfil some specific roles, it would be cool.

    By the way I tried Jellicent, it is good with Weavile for sure. But it slows down the tempo too much. In another team it would have been ok, but here, I want to keep my enemy under pressure.
    However since Jellicent is a great partner of Weavile, I encourage people to play this core in another team, probably in a more Stallish one (here I lose my main security net for Genesect, and this is rough :\)


    This is the last "attempt to bump". I'll probably update it after the Genesect ban (if it does occur) obviously, but it would need some more knowledge on the future possible metagame.
  11. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    /!\ Genesect Ban !

    As predicted, as desired, Genesect is gone.
    So I had to find a replacement and here it is.

    That's the occasion to BUMP.

    Replaced Genesect for Scizor, it was a pretty straight forward change, I builded the team on each other weakness, I needed a Steel pokemon. Anyway, everything is in the need description.

    Let's hope this time, the team will get more love, before dying once and for all.

    That's what I did in like ~20 games, I'll try to do another peek later :
    Show Hide
    [​IMG]
  12. gengarsnemisis

    gengarsnemisis

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    Hmm I'm not sure I like the bulky rain scizor on this team, and i feel roost is kind of not neeeded on HO. How about something more like this?
    (badass sprite)
    [​IMG]@[​IMG]
    252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    -Bug Bite
    -Bullet Punch
    -Brick Break
    -Swords Dance

    I think you should give this scizor set a go, its a much more offensive variant of what you have. I noticed you complained about his coverage, that's where brick break comes in, hitting steels and heatrans hard. And why don't we give scizors metal coat back to him? The 20% bullet punch boost while retaining some bulk is pretty welcome. Of course you can sub in life orb if your not getting some important kills. The jolly nature is neccessary for beating specially defensive heatran(Unfortunately doesn't outspeed offensive hetran). Overall give this guy a try! Ill test him out too!
  13. BLINGAS ♥

    BLINGAS ♥

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    Hey just a small rate since i suck at these things but, you have a pretty big problem with jellicent if Dnite dies (even then if it switches in it risks a burn). Gengar won't be doing much to spdef versions, especially without Life Orb.

    I suggest using Night Slash > Ice Punch on weavile, since pursuit won't be doing much to it, and both moves generally do the same things.
  14. The Silent Storm

    The Silent Storm

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    Hey there.
    It's very nice to see Weavile used, ludvisc'd.
    So, Jellicent is perhaps a bit problematic for your team, you require prediction with Weavile in order to kill him, some type of stall team may also give you problems.
    The first thing I want to suggest you is to remove Tanga Berry on Deo, now that genesect is banned the item is pretty much useless, you may want to try Rocky Helmet or Red Card in order to mess up with ''u-turn sheaningans'' with Xatu.
    Then I would go with Adamant on Dragonite, this way you can 2hko opposing Skarmory 100% of time with Fire Punch after a Dragon Dance.
    Alas, something that can help you against Jellicent and Stall teams is Rotom-w over Keldeo
    Rotom-w can help you keeping momentum with Volt Switch, and Trick is a great move in order to make useless an important member of a defensive core, as a bonus Rotom-w is capable of spamming strong Hydro Pumps in the rain and tanking Bullet punch with ease just as keldeo does.
    hope it helped, good luck!
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.
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    which ladder did you get #27?
  16. Dwayne

    Dwayne

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    Hi Remedy,
    This team took a hit with the ban of Genesect causing you to loose one of your main set up sweepers. While Scizor does a darn good job at filling genesect's place what you really need is a set up sweeper who alone can wreck weakened teams and is fast enough to do so. Keeping that in mind I couldn't help but notice that Agility Lucario would be a option to replace Genesect and could possibly do a better job that Scizor. With Lucario you get your steel type with an ice and dragon resist and a much better set up sweeper than Scizor in my opinion. On the downside though you loose priority in BP so the choice is yours. I'm not a so called rater so thats all i have for you.Here's the set that i suggest

    Agility Lucario:

    [​IMG]
    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Ability: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Punch
    - Crunch
    - Agility

    Hope i helped.
  17. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Hi, I'm so happy to see all these new opinions, it's really cool !

    @GengarsNemesis :
    Show Hide

    Hi pal,

    I tried a little this set, but it didn't work that well.
    I'll explain why simply.
    You focused your set on Heatran, but you know before, I had Genesect ;)
    So Heatran isn't really something coming out of the blue for this team, I always had to deal with it.
    You set is cool because he beats some SDef version, however I lose so much bulk (being able to tank Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane is... huge).
    So I'll keep testing it, but I doubt this will be as good as the bulky version. I feel like this Scizor is outclassed by Lucario ! Don't you think so?
    Thank you for all your support by the way.
    Pretty nasty sprite :o !

    @Tiffanyy :
    Show Hide


    I'll try it, it's a tough choice, I'll make another account and test it to see if sometimes I'm missing the loss of Ice Punch or not.
    Thank you.

    @The Silent Storm :
    Show Hide


    Hi, for Tanga Berry I'll try everything you suggested. However I want to say that Tanga is still REALLY useful because many people traded Gene RP/Scarf for a Scizor, and these Scizor come on me T1, so it's really not only for Genesect.
    The Adamant Nature, at first I was like "what but, I got it already" and I realised that in fact in the importable the Dragonite's Nature was Jolly (whereas in the description it is Adamant). It was a mistake that I'll fix !
    For Rotom-W, the issue is that if I got bulky I lose too much power, and if I go offensive, I'll lose crucial 1V1 since Rotom-W is too slow.
    But I'll try it since I'm interested in a Stab Electric attack. But I lose the mixed power of Secret Sword and HPump.
    Thanks, and for sure it helped !

    @Shurtugal :
    Show Hide


    I peaked when I was getting the reqs, so it was before Genesect's ban in the OUcurrent ladder.
    I didn't play with this version of the team on the suspect to get the reqs because I had no time given what happened with the Smogon Tournament.
    I'll put the picture, I always forget to do so since I'm using different computers etc.


    @Dwayne :
    Show Hide


    Hi, yup Lucario is pretty damn tempting !
    To be honest I ran many tests (even before the ban). I tried stuff like Victini Lucario Jirachi etc.
    Lucario loses something crucial, the ability to take Outrages decently like Genesect and Scizor.
    However I tried the SD set, and not the Agility set (which is pretty interesting).
    I'll try it, thank, and of course it helped ;)
  18. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Nice team! I may want to try this myself!

    Your team's biggest issue I think looks to be Bulky Waters. I watched a few of your matches... Tentacruel seems really annoying! I don't really know what can remedy that other than switching your Keldeo for a Rotom-W, but then you do lose a Rock resist!

    Try these Scizor spreads and see which one you like best. Leftovers Scizor is just too weak.

    Scizor @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 96 Atk / 232 HP / 164 SDef / 16 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite / Superpower
    - Swords Dance
    - Roost

    Superpower is coverage. Scizor always wants Life Orb. He isn't affected by Sandstorm and you want a free 30% boost to Bullet Punch for revenge killing purposes.

    Scizor @ Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 152 HP / 104 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower
    - Bug Bite / Pursuit
    - Swords Dance

    Offensive Scizor. HP is a Life Orb Number. The speed outspeeds 0 Speed Heatran if you get backed into a corner late in the match and have no choice. Pursuit should be considered because you can potentially drop Weavile (though not as effective against Xatu). If you were to drop Weavile, you could replace him with Rotom-W, who will help you against Bulky Waters. This is the Rotom-W set I use:

    Rotom-Wash @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 132 Spd / 124 SAtk
    Modest Nature
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hydro Pump
    - Hidden Power [Fire] / Thunder Wave

    T-Wave is good for Lati@, who are a common switch. Hidden Power Fire hurts Abomasnow, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Scizor, Breloom, etc.
  19. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

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    Hi bro'!
    It is an original team and effective on the whole, correct Build team but there is some flaw in the teambuilder, I understand not why you put Gengar Focus sash, you have laid the Destiny Bond move but the spinners in OU are Starmie, Tentacruel, Forre3 this set will be used has nothing against them, especially as it is an offense its' necessary finish the opponent at least quickly by playing this set you do that contradict the strategy of the team, I would advise you to sableye as gengar is not very bulky overall and will be clear of the field very quickly, sableye it can fit easily and has the Recover move + special attack Prankster to attack first when it is attacked by status then with Night shade it can tapper and WoW for the Sweepers that need to stand and then following the well it will be very boring and it will a very competitive pressure for you! Sableye does have any weakness so will usually get on any it sweep, the only Pokémon that can be annoying to him is Starmie LO Hydropump or Starmie Hydropump/Surf under Rain, where it can be full def spec as you possess not Rotom for the kill.

    Show Hide
    Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
    Stroke: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpeD
    Calm Nature (+ SDef) - Atk
    -Night Shade
    -Recover
    Will-O-Wisp
    -Taunt

    Then I noticed that you put Scizor SD however normally the aim is to put pressure with the Sr + Spikes while preventing the spinn, here you leave the 3 spinners place without worries pushing in the switch and making it become useless! Especially it will leave other Pokémon stand as Skarmory/Nite/Tran. It will hurt at the end but will not come before, it's a bit as if you began to 5 Pokemon because it will inevitably disadvantage the team! I you Council therefore to Scizor scarf, he can come on Starmie, and returning to then prevent the spinns pass, accompanied by of EH's a great pressure will mount on the opposing team while keeping the EH's field by pivoting with Sableye!


    Show Hide
    Scizor (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Stroke: Technician
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+ Spd, - SAtk)
    -U - turn
    -Iron Head
    -Superpower
    -Bullet Punch


    I put Bullet Punch instead of Night Slash because there are Weavile that trapp with Pursuit and that without this move Terrakion will stand and will become so quite annoying, there at least you earn a good coverage.

    Good Luck.

    ~ Leftiez
  20. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Hi RaikouLover and Leftiez (pretty tricky comment bro :D ).


    @RaikouLower :
    Show Hide


    These Scizor sets are really interesting, I'll try them both even if Life Orb (yes I know it helps to take some kills) is a little annoying.
    Basically I tried to fit Superpower somewhere for Heatran... and then I thought "Why do I even bother?".
    I mean, before I had Genesect ! it's like, even worse, so I was able to beat Heatran before and I'll still be able to. Simply because Scizor (like Genesect) is here supposed to come in the end, and Heatran comes earlier and I usually set Dragonite on it, kill it with Low Kick from Weavile, Focus Blast on Gengar or Destiny Bond, or by Keldeo.

    I tried Rotom-W, to be honest it didn't like it on Keldeo at all. While it can seem cool to have a Electric move, I lose so much power (with Secret Sword and the SpA), so much Speed, and I even lose bulkyness (neutral to SR, low HP).
    I didn't like it at all, Weavile with Night Slash (I decided to take this change) can deal with Jellicent, Scizor 2HKO the SpD version (I think) at +2 with Bug Bite, Gengar kills it and Dragonite set up freely on it. It is a defensive threat obviously, but no need to be overprepared for it and sacrifice so much power.

    However thank you for the rate, I'll give a try to these Scizor set as I'm deeply pondering on how I'll play him, these suggestions fuel my tests. I'm currently trying an offensive version with Bug Gem (lol I never saw that anywhere xD), and it is pretty cool in fact ;D. I'll try a Steel Gem, but as I spam Bullet Punch a little more I don't know if it works. For now I'm not convinced that any of these Scizor does better that the set I have... I need tests :\

    @Leftiez :
    Show Hide


    Thank you Leftiez ;)

    It was a little hard to read sometimes (hehehe), but at least I was able to understand all the suggestions.
    Sableye on Gengar is... well to be honest I don't like it at all, so instead of trying this, I'll rather try to convince you.

    You talk about Forretress, I 0HKO it with Gengar, that's not an issue.
    You talk about Tentacruel, it's an issue, but Gengar can lower it pretty hard with Shadow Ball (if DBond fails, I can trap/Set-up and force him to leave) and kill it with Destiny Bond.
    For Starmie, it's a little more delicate, but it's maybe the easiest. I go to Gengar :
    - If he Psychic, I survive with Sash and I'm at 1 HP, then I switch to Weavile (they never HPump a 1Hp Gengar and the offensive version is rare) and kill it with Pursuit as Weavile is faster. Sometimes, if I feel like I can, I just sac a pokemon (like Deoxys-D if possible), to bring Weavile and kill it.
    - If he doesn't attack and Spin, I survive the next attack and kill him thanks to Sash.
    Moreover most of the time, Starmie comes on Deoxys-D so I can play with it (there is a replay where I do), untill I'm sure he will not attack. Basically I let him spin as I keep setting Hazards until the moment when I switch by surprise to Gengar/Weavile.

    Moreover, Gengar put a big pressure on the enemy and Sableye change makes me weaker to a lot of defensive threats that have been mentionned before.


    About Scizor, I know that you did it to patch Starmie weakness but really, it's no big deal. Starmie is really easily controlled by my team at the moment.
    The Scarf lower too much my tempo, and U-Turn is too tricky for this team (I break Sash, Multiscale etc by switching) and my Pokemons are frail and don't like take hazard damages freely. I really prefer a version able to set-up on someone else's weakness than a Scarf one.


    But thanks anyway, I see that you put a lot of efforts here.
    I'd say, try this Gengar, for real, he can seem totally gimmick, but he works so great. While he's not always easy to master (sometimes you have to sacrifice him for some crucial turns/damages) he can win games on its own and definitely, he always has a way to block spin. This team is all about cost/advantage and I like it this way.
  21. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    This is an excellent HO team and I really like the use of Weavile and Focus Sash Genger.So props for that.I feel this team doesn't really need much change.So I suggest a minor change on Scizor of switching Lefties for Lum Berry.

    From my experience with Bulky SD Scizor,I found Lum Berry way more useful than lefties.Lum Berry lets you escape the Scald burn from Bulky waters and lets you deal with them quite comfortably.There were plenty of times things like Bulky Toed,Tentacruel and Jellicent switched in on my Scizor to stop it's sweep and almost all the time Scizor managed to beat them thanks to Lum berry,often deciding the result of the match.It also lets you catch a Breloom by surprise once it knows you're defensive and decides to spore and beat Defensive Rotom-W variants with WoW .You can also fake CB sometimes and net a surprise kill.
  22. Leftiez

    Leftiez *Stars*

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    Show Hide



    Indeed but you say that you can switch on weavile, you seem to forget than weavil don't OHKO Starmie steps and therefore it will be kill in the next round putting you a bit shit because you have no pokemon to outspeed then in addition you don't OHKO pas Forretress and so it can place a gyroball and end or place the Sr's / Spikes but if you want to play it I can not prevent you and then to Scizor you're certainly right, you want to take free damage but will need to make a choice between letting the spinn spinners as they want or make the scoots by putting pressure on the opponent stating that you have a very good synergy allowing you to come on any attack without having a big impact so I think that on this point there you have false after if the team works well why change? You do not change a winning team.

    GG and Good luck!

    ~Leftiez
  23. Haineskid712

    Haineskid712

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    Really nice team! Only suggestion is changing Hidden Power Ice, to ghost and switching Surf or Pump to icy wind. So you get the same coverage, but aren't completely walled by Jellicent (:
  24. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    @White Symphoni :
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    I tried this change, and it worked pretty well ! I take it, thank you !


    @Leftiez :
    Show Hide


    When I don't kill Starmie (the bulky versions) I leave them with something like 5-10%. This said, I can switch to Dragonite and Extreme Speed, the Hazards are still up. If he spins on the first turn when I Pursuit, I can still put Hazards later again, since they usually go Starmie early on Deoxys-D as I switch to one of my answers.
    For Forretress, Gengar is my go to go counter, he won't do enough damages, and I kill him. Fine, if he GyroBall on the switch then switch out I put myself in a tought situation but that's not so big an issue since they usually don't do that (afraid on the sub/painsplit etc), and since I still have Dragonite/Keldeo to annoy him (plus Scizor set up on him quite easily).
    Thank you anyway ;p


    @Haineskid712 :
    Show Hide


    I'm wondering on this point, as you may have see, this was the moveset I used in the past. I'll keep tabs on this possibility in the future, thank you !



    /////////////////////////////////////////////////////


    I'm also pondering on another change.
    This would be a Dark Gem for Weavile and Earthquake for Dragonite over Fire Punch.
    With the Dark Gem I don't need anymore Night Slash. With Ice Punch back (and since Weavile is so fast) I wouldn't need Ice Shard so much anymore aswell, so the loss of Life Orb wouldn't hurt since I'd use Ice Punch along.
    The only drawback is the loss of power of Low Sweep, BUT I still KO easily any Tyranitar, KO Terrakio after SR and Spikes damages (this can be annoying but I have Scizor so..), KO Lucario after Spikes and LO damage... I deal something like 65% to Bulky Heatran... but now Dragonite Set-up on him easily with EQ.
    I also lose some power against Mach Punch users that I used to KO straigh. Like Breloom, I only do a little more than 60% now. This being said, with Lum Berry on Scizor now too, Breloom is a pretty good set-up fodder for me (Dragonite, and Gengar revenges him easily).

    On the other hand, the loss of Fire Punch is annoying to hit stuff like Skarmory, Bronzong, that I never really see anyway. Also, it's not a deadweight move in the Rain (and I got no way to change the weather so..) and the Power is higher.

    I want some opinions on this point ;)
  25. dragonuser

    dragonuser Today, tomorrow, and always with a frozen heart
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    Just want to post saying that I would strongly advise against dropping Ice Shard on Weavile. It gives you a solid way to revenge Dragon-Types that managed to setup and helps a lot vs stuff like +2 Landorus or Thundurus-T. Its general utility is part of what makes Weavile so valuable.

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