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Taillow (Analysis)*

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Namso, Nov 14, 2009.

  1. Namso

    Namso
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    Taillow's done.

    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/taillow

    Status: COMPLETE! (needs proofreading)
    ____________________________________________________________

    [Overview]

    <p>Being the fastest user of the Guts ability, Taillow is considered one of the most devastating sweepers in LC, only taking one turn for it to move from an average attacker to a destructive powerhouse. Its insanely strong STAB Facade and Brave Bird give it the ability to obliterate a huge portion of the metagame, not to mention that even the most bulkiest of LC Pokemon are 2HKOed or OHKOed with a bit of entry hazard support. However, Taillow has notable disadvantages. Its Stealth Rock weakness, solid counters such as Bronzor and Aron, and vulnerability to priority moves hinder its ability to pull off a successful sweep. On top of this, Taillow tends to die fast through the residual damage from Stealth Rock, poison, and recoil it takes from Brave Bird. Despite these shortcomings, with the right team support and when used correctly, Taillow will still be an impressive late-game sweeper with its high offensive prowess.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Guts Sweeper
    move 1: Facade
    move 2: Brave Bird / Pluck
    move 3: Quick Attack
    move 4: U-turn / Protect
    item: Toxic Orb
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Taillow may have a mediocre Attack stat of 15, but after Guts is activated, this is not the case. Once Toxic Orb activates, Taillow's Attack stat shoots up to a threatening stat of 22, which, when paired with its high 19 Speed stat, turns Taillow into an extremely dangerous sweeping force. Unprepared teams will definitely have a hard time combating this fearsome bird, as its phenomenally powerful Facade can tear through those that don't outright resist it.</p>

    <p>Taillow's moveset is very straightforward. Facade is the primary attacking option for sweeping, as it boasts an insane Base Power of 140 thanks to Taillow's poison status. Brave Bird's 120 Base Power is mostly used to destroy Ghost-types, which is important as they pack an immunity to Facade. The only disadvantage Brave Bird has is that Facade is always going to be the stronger attack in most circumstances, due to its higher Base Power. Brave Bird's recoil will also pile up on the poison damage Taillow takes, leaving it with not much health left over. A great alternative to Brave Bird is Pluck. Even though its Base Power is considerably lower, it can prove to be very helpful in many situations. The biggest advantage Pluck has over Brave Bird is it can steal Berry items that the opponent's Pokemon are wielding, meaning it can consume an Oran Berry from Munchlax or receive a Speed boost from Totodile's Salac Berry. Pluck also has no recoil effect, unlike Brave Bird, so if you have a way to eliminate Ghost-types, than Pluck is the superior secondary attacking option. Quick Attack is an excellent priority move to have, as it can help Taillow stop opposing priority Pokemon from hurting Taillow, such as Sucker Punch Houndour or Vacuum Wave Croagunk. The last moveslot is open to U-turn or Protect. U-turn helps Taillow scout and flee from enemies that it can't hurt as much and still do reasonable damage at the same time, while Protect is very useful in allowing Taillow to activate its Toxic Orb without taking any damage. In most cases, U-turn is the better way to go, as it's not difficult to switch Taillow into a move like Earthquake from Gligar or Shadow Ball from Gastly, or even just using Taillow to revenge kill a weakened enemy, to activate its Toxic Orb without being harmed.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>To see how powerful Facade is, below are several damage calculations against some of the bulkiest of threats.</p>

    <ul class="damage_calculation">
    <li>Facade vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Adamant Munchlax: 91% - 100% </li>
    <li>Facade vs. 220 HP / 148 Def Sassy Bronzor: 36% - 48% </li>
    <li>Facade vs. 236 HP / 236 Def Impish Gligar: 62% - 73% </li>
    <li>Facade vs. 212 HP / 132 Def Impish Hippopotas: 73% - 92% </li>
    <li>Facade vs. 236 HP / 132 Def Relaxed Wynaut: 83% - 97% </li>
    </ul>

    <p>As you can see with the above calculations, Facade is capable of 2HKOing most of the bulkiest tanks and walls, meaning Pokemon that are defensively weaker than these will have to watch out.</p>

    <p>As mentioned previously, if you are capable of disposing of Ghost-types, Taillow wouldn't have to worry about using Brave Bird, as its side-effect is rather harmful. With that in mind, Houndour and Stunky are excellent teammates to use, as they are the best Pursuiters in the LC metagame. They both have access to Sucker Punch and Pursuit, which can easily remove Ghost-types like Drifloon and Duskull from getting in Taillow's way. Another problem Taillow encounters is the ever present Stealth Rock, which scrapes off 25% of Taillow's health every time it switches in. This is extremely brutal due to the fact that Taillow is also reducing more of its HP from Toxic Orb, so it won't be surviving for a long period of time. Staryu is a great offensive Rapid Spinner to remove Stealth Rock from your field, who also resists Taillow's Ice-type weakness; however, it packs an Electric-type weakness just like Taillow. Besides removing entry hazards from your field, Taillow enjoys entry hazards on your opponent's field, as it can potentially turn many of its 2HKOs into solid OHKOs. For example, if we use the calculations shown above, Munchlax, Hippopotas, and Wynaut will fall under an OHKO if Stealth Rock and Spikes were in play. Entry hazards will give Taillow a much easier time at sweeping and becomes less fearful of Pokemon surviving its attacks. Bronzor is a superb Stealth Rock supporter because of its excellent overall bulk, and it's resistant to Rock-type attacks fired at Taillow, while Omanyte is arguably the most effective Spikes supporter, thanks to its great Defense and decent typing, though it adds an additional Electric weakness like Staryu.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb Sweeper
    move 1: Return
    move 2: Brave Bird / Pluck
    move 3: Hidden Power Ground
    move 4: Quick Attack / U-turn
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Naive
    evs: 236 Atk / 36 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Taillow is one of those Pokemon that is unable to greatly damage its common counters, such as Bronzor, Onix, Shieldon, and Aron, as they are all resistant to both of Taillow's STAB attacks. However, this set attempts to turn the tables. With the use of Life Orb and the surprising Hidden Power Ground, Taillow can catch most of its counters off-guard, which can easily mess up your opponent's plan at stopping Taillow's sweep.</p>

    <p>Return is Taillow's primary STAB attack, hitting for a great amount of damage to those unresistant. The second moveslot is offered to Brave Bird or Pluck. Both of these moves have their pros and cons, so it's up to personal preference when choosing which one to use. Brave Bird is an extremely dangerous STAB attack, hitting many Pokemon that reside in Little Cup very hard. The downfall to this is the fact that Taillow's HP will be going down rapidly, since the recoil Brave Bird and Life Orb have is brutal, not to mention Taillow's Stealth Rock weakness. On the other hand, Pluck is significantly weaker than Brave Bird, but it does have the opportunity to steal Berry items from the opposing Pokemon. This can be very beneficial to Taillow when it's up against Oran Berry holders, as it can rejuvenate nearly half of its health that was lost. Hidden Power Ground is the crux of this set. With Taillow's common counters being Pokemon like Onix, Aron, Geodude, Magnemite, and Shieldon, Hidden Power Ground is capable of dealing massive amounts of damage to them, OHKOing Aron, Shieldon, and Magnemite, while 2HKOing Geodude and Onix. However, there are some other special attacks Taillow can choose from, depending on what you want to hit harder, such as Hidden Power Grass and Heat Wave. The last moveslot is given to Quick Attack and U-turn. Quick Attack serves as a handy priority attack to knock out weakened threats and hit most other priority users first because of Taillow's high Speed, while U-turn is a reliable move to switch Taillow out of a Pokemon that it can't hurt, such as Bronzor, while still doing a decent amount of damage at the same time.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Taillow's Stealth Rock weakness really hinders and limits its ability to sweep. It also gives Taillow less chances to abuse its Life Orb, since its reducing its HP quickly with the recoil and Stealth Rock damage. Therefore, it's strongly recommended to remove this entry hazard to make Taillow's job much easier. Anorith is a great Rapid Spinner to look into, as it boasts high Speed and Attack stats that help it Rapid Spin successfully. Besides worrying about removing entry hazards, it's a good idea to set up entry hazards of your own, particularly Stealth Rock and Spikes. This way, Taillow can potentially turn 2HKOs into certain OHKOs. Bronzor is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock users, thanks to its great overall defenses and excellent typing. It also packs a resistance to Rock-type attacks aimed at Taillow, which is always helpful. As for setting up Spikes, Omanyte should be put up for consideration. It has great Defense and a variety of support moves that could help your team, such as Knock Off and Toxic Spikes. Lastly, this may seem a bit hard to accomplish, but using Pokemon that attract Will-O-Wisp users can be quite helpful. The reason for this is because it gives Taillow the perfect opportunity to switch into Will-O-Wisp, which would make its attacks insanely strong, as it would be boosted by Life Orb and Guts. Any pure physical attackers can attract Will-O-Wisp users, such as Mankey, Gligar, and Elekid to name a few.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>Stealth Rock is a very common hazard in the Little Cup metagame, which really hinders Taillow's ability to switch in multiple times and abuse its Toxic Orb. Using a Rapid Spinner to avoid this problem is recommended, such as Staryu and Anorith. Both of these Pokemon are generally fast, reaching max Speeds of 19 and 18, respectively, and pack great power so no offensive momentum is lost. Besides removing entry hazards from your opponent, setting up some of your own will help Taillow score more OHKOs than usual. Stealth Rock and Spikes are what you should be looking for, and Bronzor and Omanyte are excellent at doing just that. Bronzor's excellent overall bulk and typing give it many opportunities to set up Stealth Rock, and Omanyte's high Defense and access to various other support moves make it a reliable Spikes user.</p>

    <p>There are many other problems Taillow encounters when it comes to sweeping. With Taillow's below average defenses, priority users will give Taillow a huge amount of trouble, including Carvanha, Croagunk, and Meowth. Carvanha's Aqua Jet, Croagunk's Fake Out and Vacuum Wave, and Meowth's Fake Out all do serious damage to Taillow, so it's recommended to use Pokemon that can help stop these threats from stopping Taillow's sweep. Croagunk is a great Pokemon to deal with Carvanha, absorbing Aqua Jet for extra HP, thanks to Dry Skin, and retaliating with a super effective STAB Vacuum Wave. Gligar's great defenses allows it to switch into Fake Out and Vacuum Wave with relative ease and strike Croagunk back with a powerful Earthquake. Aron can switch into Meowth with impunity, setting up a free Rock Polish boost.</p>

    <p>Bulky Rock-, Ground-, and Steel-types are troublesome for Taillow, especially for the Guts set, as most of them generally resist all of Taillow's moves. They are the most common way to stop a Taillow sweep, so disposing of those type of Pokemon is strongly suggested. Magnemite is capable of trapping Steel Pokemon, like Aron and Shieldon, and finishing them off with Hidden Power Ground. Gligar can switch into many of these Pokemon without fearing of an OHKO, thanks to its great Defense, and proceed to finish them off with Earthquake or Aqua Tail. Diglett is also quite effective at trapping Aron, Sheildon, and any other Rock-type without Sucker Punch.</p>

    [Optional Changes]

    <p>Taillow's limiting movepool doesn't really offer it any other notable moves it can use, but there are a few that can be useful. Heat Wave may seem like a gimmicky option, but it can be helpful against Steel-types, particularly Bronzor. With a Life Orb and only 36 SpA EVs, Heat Wave can deal around 50% damage to the standard Bronzor, which is pretty reasonable since Bronzor laughs at nearly every other move Taillow uses. Counter in tandem with Focus Sash can be used to great effect as well, since Taillow's frail defenses will guarantee that Counter will KO the opposing Pokemon once hit by a physical attack. Because Taillow generally poses as a big threat, it may end up forcing several switches, which is why Pursuit can be used to good effect since it helps hurt Pokemon that attempt to switch out, as well as hitting Ghost-types super effectively. With a combination of Focus Sash, Endeavor, and Quick Attack, Taillow can have a chance to bring down at least one Pokemon from the opposing team all the time; but, Taillow would have to be used with a low Speed stat otherwise it will be difficult to pull off because Taillow needs to be attacked first in order for Endeavor to work properly.</p>

    <p>Taillow can make use of Choice Band or Choice Scarf, since it has the moves to use them effectively. The main problem about Choiced Taillow is the fact that Doduo does this job better. Doduo packs much higher Attack than Taillow, assuming Taillow does not receive a Guts boost, and still reaches a high enough Speed stat to outpace a lot of threats. The only thing that differentiates Taillow from Doduo is that it has access to U-turn, which is beneficial on any Choice set.</p>

    <p>Even though Hidden Power Ground is the recommended Hidden Power type to use on the Life Orb set, Taillow has several other attacks that are useful. Hidden Power Fighting hits everything Hidden Power Ground does, except it is capable of hurting Lileep and hitting Bronzor neutrally, but fails to OHKO Magnemite. Hidden Power Water hits Onix, Geodude, and Rhyhorn for 4x the damage, but loses power against Aron and Shieldon, as well as doing very little to Kabuto and Omanyte. Hidden Power Grass destroys Onix, Geodude, Rhyhorn, Omanyte, and Kabuto, but it fails to get past Aron, Shieldon, and Magnemite. Finally, Heat Wave is useful for nailing both Bronzor and Magnemite but loses coverage against Rock-types. All of these can be used instead of Hidden Power Ground, so it's really up to what your team needs.</p>

    <p>For non-attacking moves, Taillow can use an Agility to set to make it one of the fastest Little Cup sweepers in the game. Roost, although difficult to use because of Taillow's pathetic defenses, can be useful as well, healing up to 50% of Taillow's health. It's especially helpful since Taillow is taking repeated damage from Stealth Rock, Life Orb, or status, so Roost can help keep it healthy. Finally, a SubLiechi set can make Taillow a threatening offensive force, as it won't be taking any recoil damage from the likes of Life Orb or status, and it won't have to be locked into one attack from a Choiced item.</p>

    [Counters]

    <p>Rock- and Steel-types are probably the best counters to Taillow, as they pack a resistance to both of Taillow's STAB attacks and moves that hit it super effectively. Common examples of these Pokemon are Aron, Geodude, Bronzor, and Magnemite. Aron is capable of setting up Rock Polish with impunity, Geodude can set up Substitute and fire off powerful Stone Edges, Bronzor has the opportunity to set up Stealth Rock, and Magnemite can set up Substitute or Magnet Rise. However, these Pokemon must watch out for Hidden Power Ground (excluding Bronzor due to Levitate), as they will be OHKOed.</p>

    <p>Besides using tanks or walls, priority and Choice Scarf users are great for revenge-killing Taillow. Since it has such pitiful defensive stats, priority moves will deal a great amount of damage. Fake Out Meowth and Vacuum Wave Croagunk are just some of the most common priority users in LC, all of which boast great Attack. It should be noted that Taillow with Quick Attack can be quite harmful, since it can potentially make Fake Out not flinch and Sucker Punch never hit. As far as Choice Scarfers go, Gligar, Machop, and Porygon are all excellent Pokemon to use. Gligar packs excellent physical bulk and power, Machop has access to the dangerous DynamicPunch, and Porygon gains a free Download boost, unless Taillow is running a Naive nature.</p>

    <p>The easiest way to make Taillow less threatening is to simply set up Stealth Rock early-game and have a Ghost-type to block Rapid Spin. Gligar and Bronzor are capable of setting up Stealth Rock very well, while Duskull and Drifloon are excellent Pokemon to use to stop Rapid Spin from working.</p>
  2. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    I think Pursuit should be moved to OO, even on the Guts set it always fails to KO non switching Missy (Guts/LO: 45.45% - 63.64%) or even Gastly (Guts: 70% - 90% LO: 50% - 70%) putting you at a horrible risk if they chose not to switch, and risk the speed tie/sacrifice. Brave Bird will always 1KO both ghosts and provide a large threat for anything else switching in, rather than giving them a free switch to whatever they like as Pursuit does. You don't often care about catching a low HP Pokemon switching out very much compared to blasting their switch with a 120/140 power STAB move.

    Both of the other options are pretty important, QA gives you a decent chance against priority users to which Taill is quite vulnerable, and U-turn is always fun for scouting on something with specific (and trappable) counters like Taillow.

    Choice Items and HP Grass/Fight may be worth at least OO mentions.

    I think its worth talking about how the first set can forgo Protect as most opponents will expect it and switch or use a setup move on Taillow's first turn in, but that it is risky to do so.

    Stunky seems like generally better pursuiter to me, being able to actually switch into and beat ghost types with HP Fight somewhat reliably. Much better at trapping the Ghosts than Houndour anyway.
  3. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    First set:

    Looks good so far; well done.
  4. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    I think Protect should be slashed with something, it is not completely necessary. Its easy enough to switch Taillow in consdering the abudance of Gligars EQ and Missy's Shadow Ball. I run Facade BB U Turn QA to considerable success

    Speaking of which, Facade should be the first move since it is the crux of the set

    I cant really say much apart from that, except that LO doesnt seem that viable :/
  5. diinbong

    diinbong *it's in you to give*
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    imo U-turn and Protect should be interchangeable and Quick Attack should be a given.

    Facade
    Brave Bird
    Quick Attack
    Protect / U-turn
  6. Namso

    Namso
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    Thanks for the comments guys, and I'll fix up the Guts set. I'll probably change it to what diinbong has suggested.
  7. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Honestly can't see why LO is even viable. Tailow isn't bulky in the least, and that extra 1 HP it loses from LO isn't enough to merit the drop from +50% power to +30% power, PLUS the loss of STAB Facade, which is what makes it so bloody frightening in the first place. On top of that, Toxic Orb STILL does less damage over 2 turns than Life Orb, while also providing more power and a significantly better STAB.

    Take out the LO set, it's definitely not viable.

    EDIT: Stick it with HP Ground in Other Options if you really want, but I can't see it being worth much more than lolgimmick status.
  8. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    I think it's viable enough, too be honest. Taillow makes a great Aron lure, and taking it out is a huge benefit for many teams. The Guts set doesn't have the luxury of OHKOing Aron, so that's why Life Orb would require it's own set and shouldn't just be slashed onto the guts set. Also, it's not like status is "non-existent" in Little Cup. WoW Missy is everywhere. Its immediate power is also helpful.

    I'd say it's worth keeping.
  9. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Fully supporting keeping the LO set, it does not have quite the raw sweeping power of Guts, but it makes up for it by being able to blow away some of the Guts set's best counters:

    LO HP Ground 1KOs:
    Aron (127.27% - 163.64%, non LO has a small chance to fail to KO)
    Magnemite (105.26% - 147.37%)

    Both of these resist or 4x resist its STAB moves, U-turn and Pursuit. Standard Aron takes lol damage from the anything the Guts set can do, even Facade does only 18.18% - 27.27%...

    2KOs:
    Non Oran Omanyte (50% - 70%)
    Kabuto (73.68% - 94.74%, so possible 1KO with SR)
    Onix (70% - 90%, probable 1KO if it switches in on another attack)
    Geodude (80% - 100%, probable 1KO if it switches in on another attack, possible with SR)
    Rhyhorn (66.67% - 83.33%)
    Larvitar (66.67% - 85.71%)
    Cranidos (69.57% - 86.96%)
    Sheildon (80% - 100%)

    All of the above resist both STAB moves, all are very good checks, and most are perfectly usible counters to Guts. LO deals with them all.

    Not always 2KOed (only counting sets that have >20% use):
    Max HP Oran Omanyte takes (43.48% - 60.87%), always a 3KO with Oran. Possible 2KO if low damage then high. About 55% of Oma run this.
    Max HP Oran Rhyhorn takes (59.26% - 74.07%), always a 3KO with Oran. Small chance to 2KO if Oran activates, fair chance to 2KO if low damage does not activate it then high KOs. About 34% of Rhyhorn run this.


    So, the LO set 1KOes two of the normal set's best counters and 2KOs all the rest bar the odd HP investing+Oran Oma and Rhyhorn, and Bronzor. Easily worth a set and far, far from a "lolgimmick".
  10. Namso

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    I don't plan on removing Life Orb Taillow, it's an excellent set that can potentially destroy its counters. The calculations that eric provided shows how useful Hidden Power Ground is, so I'm not removing it.

    Also, there is going to be a Choiced Taillow set coming soon. I'm not putting it in OO, unless someone objects to it having its own set.
  11. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Choice Band Taillow is definitely not a great option imo, but Choice Scarf is decent because it can switch into a missy's WoW and sweep with +1 Atk / Speed late game. As much as I hate Choiced Normal-types....
  12. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Choice is borderline OO IMO, it can work.. but overall Doduo does Scarf better and for CB, why not use Guts? Same power boost, no horrible move lock.

    Have you looked into other Hidden Powers? Grass blasts the Rock/Grounds and Rock/Waters away, but has trouble with /Steels. Water kills Rock/Grounds and hurts /Steels, but has trouble with /Waters. Fight if pretty similar to Ground, but only hits Magnemite 2x SE and does more to Lileep. Most of these are probably only OO worthy, but imo worth a quick test.
  13. Namso

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    Ok, I spoke with Bloo a bit, and he'll only do a Choice Scarf Taillow set. I'll throw Choice Band into OO.

    As for the different Hidden Powers, I mentioned each of what you suggest eric in the Other Options, as well as informing the reader about the Hidden Powers in the Life Orb set.

    EDIT: After chatting in #littlecup, I will be inputting Choiced Taillow in OO, since it is outclassed by Doduo.
  14. Black Buddha

    Black Buddha

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    Why would anyone use a Scarf Taillow? Its attack stat is mediocre without the Guts boost, and Doduo arguably does that better due to its higher attack and slightly higher defenses, while having the same effective speed
  15. Namso

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    Taillow is now completely done.

    Grammar checks and whatnot appreciated.
  16. Dubulous

    Dubulous I look just like Buddy Holly.
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    This needs to be updated with the new format. Taillow is one of the better Pokemon in LC, and I'd like to see it on-site soon! When it's updated, I'll do a full grammar/prose check on it.
  17. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Mentor

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    Bold = Change, add
    Red = Delete, consider deleting
  18. Banryu

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    Actually, I don't see why Facade and Brave Bird are both needed on the same set. :0 They hit most of the same things not-very-effectively, so the only significant difference is the SE things Brave Bird hits VS the extra 20 BP on Facade. :\ I don't think you really need both, but I do think that Protect is pretty much essential for scouting priority and activating Guts. I also think Pursuit be in the main set for its ability to KO Gastly and whatnot.... and it also makes Taillow a great Duskull check (kinda? there's still Ice Beam to worry about I guess).

    - Protect
    - Brave Bird / Facade
    - Quick Attack
    - U-Turn / Pursuit

    ^ This seems like the best move lineup to me. (Or, alternatively, Brave Bird can be slashed with Pursuit, since either can be used for hitting Ghosts. Honestly, Brave Bird is starting to seem less and less useful to me, especially since Taillow's health is already deteriorating from Flame Orb.)

    Also, Heat Wave should maybe be slashed next to HP Ground on the Life Orb set, as HP Ground doesn't do squat to Bronzor, who still walls it anyway. That way it has the option of beating Aron OR Bronzor (and hit Aron neutrally at least).
  19. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Facade can hit electric types a lot harder than any other move, and is a noticably stronger generally. It also lacks recoil (poison damage+BB recoil hurts). Going with just Facade lets ghosts slaughter you (Pursuit is not going to do enough to a non switching duskull or floon), and misses out on all SE hits. I could just about imagine it may be worth mentioning, but losing one of your main STAB moves seems kinda crazy even if they do have similar coverage.
  20. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Protect should be the slashed move. Slashing it with U-turn makes the most sense because without Facade you're going to get destroyed by things where the 210 BP of Facade is needed and the 180 BP of Brave Bird doesn't cut it. For example, Gligar:

    Facade vs Gligar: 82.6% - 104.3%. Almost assured OHKO with Stealth Rock.
    Brave Bird vs Gligar: 69.6% - 91.3%. Almost assured failure to OHKO with Stealth Rock.

    In addition to this, Brave Bird packs a horrible recoil for something that's weak to Stealth Rock and has a timed life with Toxic Orb.

    While Facade is generally Taillow's most important attack, Brave Bird is still needed to hit Ghost-types.

    I think it should be kept as it is with U-turn and Protect slashed. Protect should only be used if you're leading anyway.
  21. Banryu

    Banryu

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    ...okay... points taken.

    But there's still this:
    I still think Heat Wave is worth a mention for letting Taillow not be walled by Bronzor, but then there's the problem of being walled by Rock-types, I just realized.... :0 Hmm, maybe not.
  22. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    I don't have calcs, but I doubt an unboosted Heat Wave would do enough to stop Bronzor being a fairly good counter (it'd still get at least one hit off, enough to put you low enough to die from recoil/poison fast). HP Ground hits 4x SE against a Pokemon with low special defensiveness, heat wave is hitting one of the most bulky LC 'mons 2x SE though a probable Oran Berry.
  23. Namso

    Namso
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    Oof, an analysis back in November. I'll fully update this as soon as I can tomorrow, as I have no school.

    As much as I appreciate your suggestion Banryu, I probably won't be going with it. As eric and Heysup stated above, Taillow does need Brave Bird solely for the Ghost-types that attempt to block Facade, the most important attack on this set. I don't want it to be an optional move whatsoever. Protect is not at all a necessity on the set either. It's not difficult to switch Taillow in on an Earthquake or Shadow Ball or just using it to revenge kill something that's about to die so the Toxic Orb activates.

    Also, I don't want to slash Heat Wave because it doesn't actually 2HKO Bronzor through Oran Berry, which basically means Taillow still loses to Gyro Ball/Psychic. Hidden Power Ground is far superior to destroy Aron and Shieldon and to put the hurt in Kabuto, Omantye, and Onix, among others.
  24. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    Heat Wave actually does 40% - 56% to Bronzor which has a decent chance to actually 2HKO it with damage rolls.

    I definitely think this should be mentioned in OO (which needs to be renamed as Optional Changes) over the other Hidden Power types, but it shouldn't be a main option over HP Ground.

    It could even be set comments material.
  25. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    Problem is, if Bronzor switches into a Facade or Brave Bird (most likely), Oran will activate on the first Heat Wave and you miss the 2KO which lets Bronzor get up a screen/hit you down to low HP for recoil to finish you in a few turns. Probably worth a mention, better to do something to Bronzor than nothing, but not slash worthy I think.

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