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Talonflame Discussion

Discussion in 'VGC' started by Tobes, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. Tobes

    Tobes Woo-hoo, woo-hoo, woo-hoo-hoo!
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    [​IMG]

    Fire / Flying
    78 / 81 / 71 / 74 / 69 / 126
    Ability: Flame Body / Gale Wings

    Notable Moves:
    Brave Bird
    Flare Blitz
    Quick Guard
    Tailwind
    Taunt
    Will-O-Wisp

    Talonflame's claim to fame is its signature ability, Gale Wings. This ability gives all of its Flying-type moves (not just attacks) priority +1. This might seem excessive given Talonflame's absurdly high base Speed, but one should never underestimate powerful priority. Talonflame's preferred attack is obviously Brave Bird. Unfortunately its other attacking options are a bit limited, forcing it to rely on another recoil move to provide its other STAB move. Flare Blitz is still a very strong move in its own right, though, as there is an abundance of Pokemon weak to it who happen to resist Brave Bird.

    As far as support moves go Quick Guard is absurdly good, and will generally be the reason you might choose to invest in Talonflame's Speed rather than its HP. The ability to outspeed and consequently shut down pretty much every Fake Out / Prankster user is impressive, and the move itself is just extremely good in general. Ironically, in Talonflame mirrors Quick Guard can be used to protect your Talonflame from the other's Brave Bird. Tailwind is another exceptional support move, and is also affected by Gale Wings. Giving heavy hitters such as Mega-Kangaskhan doubled Speed can be devastating. Will-O-Wisp is a less team-focused option though, as its burn is troublesome for a number of Pokemon Talonflame generally struggles against, such as Tyranitar and Garchomp. Will-O-Wisp is another reason to invest in Talonflame's Speed; if you're running it you should at least invest enough to outspeed Jolly Garchomp.

    Talonflame's single biggest enemy is easily Rotom-W. It resists both of Talonflame's STABs, and both of its STABs are super effective against it. Will-O-Wisp doesn't even bother Rotom-W that much; it's just a nuisance at best. Rock Slide is also something Talonflame can't handle at all, which makes Garchomp and Tyranitar serious problems, even if they are vulnerable to Will-O-Wisp (Garchomp less-so though since it can easily run Lum Berry or have its evasion augmented by Sand Veil).

    As far as teammates go, Talonflame is not very demanding. It just needs to have partners who can handle things like Rotom-W, Garchomp, etc., Its complements a lot of Pokemon due to its excellent neutral coverage and support moves, and it can even be used on Trick Room teams thanks to its priority. Quick Guarding to protect a Trick Room user from Fake Out is also excellent.

    Example Set:

    Talonflame @ Lum Berry / Sitrus Berry
    Gale Wings
    Adamant 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    - Brave Bird
    - Flare Blitz
    - Tailwind / Will-O-Wisp / Taunt
    - Quick Guard / Protect

    Talonflame's moveset is more or less set in stone (although there are other set possibilities such as Sash / Acrobatics or Choice Band), so I imagine the biggest point of contentions would be EV spreads and item choice. Which do you all prefer, and why?
  2. Sprocket

    Sprocket P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n

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    The set that pretty much everyone needs to be able to survive is the Choice Band set. Adamant 252 Atk Choice Band Brave Bird/Flare Blitz hits like a truck, and makes life for fighting/grass types a living hell. I very much often see Talonflame as a pseudo-suicide lead:

    Talonflame @ Choice Band
    4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Speed
    Adamant nature
    Ability: Gale Wings
    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -Tailwind
    -U-Turn
  3. Mr. Blinky

    Mr. Blinky

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    I have been running

    Talonflame @ Sharp Beak
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Protect
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flare Blitz
    - Brave Bird

    My gameplan never tends to focus around Talonflame, I usually keep in around to clean up certain threats and annoying grass types. I have found that Talonflame is always threatening enough to draw enemy attention, so protect really creates lots of free turns. Sharp Beak is for Brave Bird power without the recoil from life orb, and I really don't use Flare Blitz much anyways. The EVs outspeed jolly Garchomp, which is necessary because I usually need to get a burn on them, along with Kangas, Mawiles, and other strong Sucker Punch users.
  4. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke slow
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    Mr.Blinky's set is pretty much what I've been using so far (I mean really most sets are BB, Flare Blitz, Protect and some other fourth move). The boost from the Sky Plate / Sharp Beak is pretty rad. The only thing I have differently on mine is that I opt for Tailwind since I have a Rotom-W on my team already for burns and it's just so easy to set up when the situation arises with this thing. I also run a slightly lower speed investment of 68 which lets me get the jump on Adamant Kanga primarily and then Garchomp just in case some situation arise where I need to use Flare Blitz on something before Garchomp kills me (and for a bit of speed creep on other Talonflame users aiming to just outrun adamant Kanga).

    It feels weird giving my Pokemon x1.2 boosting items with the gens gone. The age of Carracosta @ Hard Stone is upon us.
    Sprocket likes this.
  5. Mr.E

    Mr.E im the best
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    Honestly, I don't even like Flare Blitz that much on it right now. The biggest threats to Talonflame, T-Tar and Rotom-W/H, resist both its STAB moves anyway. I actually like WoW + Roost, which actually lets it half-assed stall a lot of random shit and wastes more time for its partner to sneakily do its thing. It's more bulky than one might expect since it gets to invest in HP without losing much of its "speed."
  6. MissingNoL

    MissingNoL

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    The Charti Berry, with the prevalance of Rock Slide, may be a somewhat useful item, but looking at the calculations makes me feel queasy;
    252 Atk Garchomp Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 112-134 (73.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Garchomp Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 124-146 (81 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 126-150 (82.3 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Garchomps at +1 (from a Swords Dance with an Intimidate drop) will always OHKO a Charti Berry Talonflame. Tyranitar will always OHKO unless it is hit with an Intimidate or a similar deduction, hence it's single calculation. Running an HP investment of 68 will not change any OHKOs to 2HKOs.

    I have tried such a set for a Tailwind team, and in my experience, it creates more problems than it should;
    Yoga Flame (Talonflame) @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Quick Guard / Will-O-Wisp
    - Tailwind
    - Protect
    The idea behind this set was to support my teammates with a guarenteed Tailwind and be able to retaliate with a boosted Acrobatics afterwards. Quick Guard is to prevent any priority moves (looking at you, Fake Out) from breaking its Sash; however, if you're feeling up to it, you can replace Quick Guard with Will-O-Wisp and just use Protect in liue of Quick Guard.
    In practice, it falters. Tailwind lasts for only four turns, and a KO'd Talonflame providing a free switch-in for a Tailwind abooser is always better than keeping your Talonflame that can't take full advantage of the Tailwind (you can always just choose to use Tailwind when at your sash, but then what's the point of Acrobatics?). Along with that, this set cannot do any significant damage until the opponent brings it down to it's sash; with the prevalance of Rock Sliders, this may seem easy, but there are quite a few instances where Talonflame will survive a hit without breaking its sash. Using Will-O-Wisp will reduce the further reduce the amount of chances your sash will break, seemingly being counterproductive. If anything, a Sitrus and even a Liechi Berry set will be much more reliable;
    Yoga Flame (Talonflame) @ Sitrus Berry / Liechi Berry
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 188 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Tailwind / Quick Guard
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Protect
    Use a Sitrus Berry if you want to support for a while longer or a Liechi Berry if you want to nuke stuff with Acrobatics. Since the fear of a broken sash is nonexistent, you don't need to run Quick Guard. Note that since there is no sash to break you can invest into your HP a little. The speed investment allows it to outspeed Jolly Garchomps and friends, so you might as well just Will-O-Wisp them.

    EDIT: Guess who just now realized that I forgot to click the Doubles button. The same goes to you, Sprocket: 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 109-130 (71.2 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2014
    Rukatsu likes this.
  7. Sprocket

    Sprocket P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n

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    MissingNoL Life Orb Jolly Garchomp is a strong chance OHKO a 0 HP /4 Def Charti Talonflame. So for that reason I would be leery of running Charti Berry (esp since its a virtual guarantee to OHKO after a priority Brave Bird or a fast Flare Blitz).

    252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 146-174 (95.4 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
  8. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
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    What's the point in running hp with charti berry to barely survive rock slides when your main attacking moves put you in range to being ko'd by them anyway?

    I like to use uturn to wittle down rotoms to ensure that something like kanga's frustration is guaranteed to knock it out. it has pretty good synergy with amoongus as well. if i have amoongus / talon , i can switch out amoongus to get hp from regenerator and uturn out into a healthier amoongus to take a hit.
    Eeyore likes this.
  9. MissingNoL

    MissingNoL

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    Oh, I forgot that Garchomps even run Life Orbs in VGC 2014; I've given mine pretty much anything but a Life Orb.
    I really didn't think through the Charti Berry idea in my post; I was so used to the Sash / Acrobatics set that it didn't even occur to me that it's main attacks cut its HP into the KO zone. I just saw the calculations without Life Orb and recoil and threw it away.
    As for the Liechi Berry, I had this happen to me today;
    +1 252+ Atk Talonflame Helping Hand Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 322-381 (77.7 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    I can't tell if it's a good or a bad thing, and the reason this is such a specific calculation is because this is what cost me two matches.
    Someone also told me that you can just use Substitute three times to reach your Liechi Berry and function as a protect of sorts at the same time, since you're likely to move first with your Sub.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2013
  10. admiral_mason

    admiral_mason

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    I think using up a HH twice to two-shot a Mega Kanga isn't worth it, much better moves can be used against it
  11. NinjaSyao

    NinjaSyao

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    YoloFlame (Talonflame) @ Sky Plate

    EV's: 252Atk, 172 Spd, 84 HP

    - Quick Guard
    - Brave Bird
    - Flare Blitz
    - Protect

    I like this set a lot, but it really depends on your team what to use on the bird. Quick Guard is an amazing tool for doubles, especially now that you can spam it every turn and that it stops Prankster moves!

    The EV spread ensures you being faster then +Speed Mega Kangaskhan, only losing out to Thunderus, Mienshao and Weavile I believe when it comes to Fake Out/Priority users, so I can safely burn it with Charizard X or Gardevoir. Even Sucker Punch becomes useless in Talonflame's presence, something my other Pokes really enjoy as my team is not the bulkiest of teams.
    It also helps Mega Lucario (yeah, I run 2 Mega's, I pick the one best suited to deal with the opponent and Lucario can function nicely without Mega if necessary) deal with Talonflame who otherwise at the very least would severely damage him with Brave Bird. It also helps Meowstic get the SafeSwag combo going or Thunder Wave something without being interrupted or helps Greninja fight priority users without having to rely on something like Water Shuriken.

    I've never seen anyone run a Quick Guard Talonflame on Wifi and honestly I don't get why... it's amazing!

    Btw... since I already use Life Orb on Greninja, what are the other items Talonflame could make good use of with this set?
  12. MissingNoL

    MissingNoL

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    Thundurus is banned in VGC, but that's a very nice EV spread for Quick Guard regardless.
    Talonflame was really popular when X and Y came out, so many bred their Talonflames with the basic set before knowing that Quick Guard was possible. Your opponents most likely did not want to rebreed their Talonflames for use in VGC and just went without it. Not needing it is a likely answer as well, though.
    That Talonflame might be able to enjoy a Sitrus Berry with that extra bulk from your spread. You probably wouldn't want a Choice Item seeing as how you have two support moves.
  13. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

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    Well, it really depends on the team it is on. For a full out attacker, Choice Band/Life Orb is probably the way to go. Overall though Im not a fan of Talonflame and the fact that it has a 4x weakness to Rock Slide is what will keep me from using it. It will most likely be a very common mon this season.
  14. NinjaSyao

    NinjaSyao

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    Ah yes, I keep forgetting that rated/VGC has banned certain ones since I play free battle mostly (more variety in teams and strategies). That only leaves Weavile and Mienshao who both are weak to one of his STAB's so no problem there. I already use Sitrus Berry, Life Orb and Leftovers on the others so those are no-go and I don't touch the Band items. I like being able to to switch moves ^^

    That would leave something like Wacan Berry or Charti Berry, though it probably won't live through a Rock attack anyway. Shell Bell could give some healing and Talonflame has no problem dealing over 50% damage with Brave Bird or I could troll with Rocky Helmet. I've got a feeling that when it comes to Talonflame it's best to keep things simple in terms of items...
  15. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    Charti Berry is fine, but only if you pair Talonflame with an Intimidate user - then Tyranitar and Life Orb Garchomp will miss out on OHKOes. Without Intimidate, it's not worth using it.

    Never use Shell Bell - it's just not a viable item. You'd always be better off with Sitrus Berry for healing.
  16. admiral_mason

    admiral_mason

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    Well you gotta remember most of Talonflames attacks cause mass recoil
  17. Rukatsu

    Rukatsu

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    I tried this set with Sash instead.
    Watch how it worked :D
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/vgc2014-140471236

    But mine has 252 atk 252 spe... 188 is enough to outspeed M-Kangashkhan's fake out with quick guard?
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  18. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    Ik there are reasons that people run Acrobatics on Talonflame, but imo (you have the right to disagree with me on this) if you are using Acrobatics on Talonflame you are doing something wrong (unless Flying Gem gets released before a future VGC event, but atm it isn't happening) as you are giving up a valuable item slot to gimmicky items like Liechi Berry and Focus Sash or even foregoing an item all together for the sake of using the move. Imo, I'd rather run Brave Bird with either a boosting item or even freaking Charti Berry. Hell, I've made sets with that and 84 speed (quick guards max speed Jolly Kangaskhan's Fake Out before/on the turn that it Mega Evolves) so that I can take Rock Slides and gain an extra turn to support the team with Quick Guard or Tailwind. Honestly though, the best item for un-banded sets is Sky Plate IMO as the recoil gets really heavy with Life Orb.
    That can be done with only 172 EVs for max-speed Jolly if I remember correctly.

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