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Pokémon Talonflame

Discussion in 'OverUsed' started by TaBuu, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] / [​IMG]
    Talonflame | #663
    [Smogon OU Analysis | Serebii | Bulbapedia]​
    Overview - **I knew this thing was gonna be amazing**
    ########
    Don't judge a book by its cover.
    Talonflame looked pretty disappointing ever since it was revealed back in 2013. 4x weakness to Stealth Rock was the most glaring flaw that popped out for any competitive player. To make things worse, Talonflame's only 100+ stat was its Speed. Otherwise, Talonflame was the living epitome of below average. Talonflame was just starting to look like every other Bird Starter out there.
    However, Talonflame had one attribute that, surprisingly, didn't shock players as much as when people started to realize how OP it was. Gale Wings. The ability to provide +1 priority to any Flying Move in its arsenal immediately made it a relevant threat. Priority STAB Brave Bird is now one of the most effective revenge-killing tools in its arsenal, resisted only by Steel, Rock and Electric Type Pokemon. In addition, STAB Flare Blitz provides near perfect coverage for Talonflame resisted only by Rotom-Wash, Rotom-Heat, Heatran and Tyranitar.
    Talonflame is one of the few offensive Pokemon who have the liberty to run an Attack boosting nature due to its ridiculously high base Speed and ability in Gale Wing.
    Talonflame fits right into this Generation perfectly, revenge killing offensive threats with one hit and sweeping late-game with priority Brave Bird if presented the chance. One just make sure to play conservatively with Talonflame early-game and to provide anti-hazard support. Doing so will reward the player immensely as a fully healthy Talonflame is definitely a potent Pokemon, late-game.

    Moveset - **credits to alexwolf !**
    ########
    Choice Band
    ########
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Tailwind / Will-O-Wisp
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Choice Band
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Show Hide

    Moves
    ========
    • Brave Bird gets priority, making Talonflame one of the best revenge killers and late-game cleaners in OU
    • Flare Blitz covers Steel- and most Electric-types that resist Brave Bird
    • U-turn damages Talonflame's checks and keeps momentum
    • Tailwind should be used as a last ditch effort against Pokemon that you can't revenge kill with Brave Bird, such as Mega DD Ttar, Mega Aero, Autotomize Aegislash, and Thundurus.
    • WoW permanently cripples physically based checks to Talonflame, such as Tyranitar and Hippowdon

    Set Details
    ========
    • Max Speed to speed tie opposing Talonflame and outprioritize Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack with Brave Bird
    • Jolly + enough Speed to outrun Mega Lucario and Flare Blitz it, as Brave Bird can't KO it if it's healthy. Outspeeding Thundurus is nice too, to KO it with Flare Blitz before it KOs back
    • Sharp Beak + Roost can be used if you don't like being locked into one move. Priority Roost is always great too.

    ########
    Swords Dance
    ########
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Flare Blitz
    move 4: Roost
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Sharp Beak / Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Show Hide

    Moves
    ========
    • Swords Dance makes Talonflame a great sweeper
    • Brave Bird does work after a boost and gets priority
    • Flare Blitz covers some of the stuff that BB can't
    • Roost allows Talonflame to play as an all out attacker in early-game, and act as a good check to Pokemon that it can easily switch into, such as Scizor, Stone Edge-less Landorus-T, and Volcarona. Finally, it somewhat mitigates the SR weakness and makes setting up easier

    Set Details
    ========
    • Max Speed to speed tie opposing Talonflame and outprioritize Mega Pinsir's Quick Attack with Brave Bird
    • Sharp Beak is the best option, but Life Orb gets some significant OHKOes at +2 (more on this on the write-up)
    • Jolly + enough Speed for Mega Lucario and Thundurus
    • Taunt for phazers (Hippo and SpD Heatran) and hazard users (Deo-D)

    ########
    Bulk Up
    ########
    name: Bulk Up
    move 1: Bulk Up
    move 2: Brave Bird
    move 3: Roost
    move 4: Taunt / Substitute
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful
    evs: 248 HP / 184 SpD / 76 Spe

    Show Hide
    Moves
    ========
    • Bulk Up makes Talonflame really difficult to take down and gives it the power to sweep through teams
    • Brave Bird stings after a few boosts, and outruns almost everything
    • Roost allows you to live long enough to be a threat
    • Taunt prevents phazing, hazards, and status from Pokemon such as Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, and Heatran
    • Sub helps stall out Stone Edge users such as Tyranitar and Landorus-T, and also helps stall out Rotom-W's Hydro Pump. It also helps against revenge killers.
    • Staraptor

    Set Details
    ========
    • Enough Speed to outrun positive base 90s (Deo-D, Rotom-W, and Excadrill), rest in special bulk
    • WoW can be used to cripple the physically oriented switch-ins such as Ttar and Hippowdon, but the other moves on the 4th slot are better suited for a sweeping role
    • Flare Blitz can be used on the last slot for a way to deal immeditely with threatening Steel-types, such as Lucario and Excadrill, but it leaves Talonflame very prone to its usual checks and counters
    Personal Opinion
    ########
    Easily one of Generation VI's most interesting additions to the OU metagame, Talonflame will be staying in OU for the foreseeable future. Gale Wing is simply too good of an ability and provides Talonflame with certain liberties other offensive Pokemon cannot afford.
    How should Talonflame be played? Who are its best partners? Discuss!
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
  2. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons I love this music. Isn't it too dreamy?
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    Will-O-Wisp is pretty good for the 4th moveslot too. One issue I'm having with your description is that you say Talonflame is a sweeper. However, he's much more of a late-game cleaner, because his attack isn't good enough to outright sweep unless everything's had quite a bit of prior damage, even with a Swords Dance boost under his belt. Still, I'm curious where this guy will end up and how he will perform.
  3. scotti

    scotti

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    Wow nice analysis. I also been running talonflame and i think it can be ou this gen. I also have a few sets i have been using mostly this one which is one.


    Talonflame @ Life Orb / Leftovers
    Ability: Flame Body
    EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Flare Blitz
    - Brave Bird
    - Swords Dance
    - Roost / Steel Wing / Agility

    This is a set i have been using. I most notably been using Agility and Roost over steel wing, but i have found some use for it. Agility and SD make up a Double Dance set comebine with leftovers, it can be a very deadly set. You can also run roost with life orb if you just want more power overall and can survive slightly longer. The EV's spread allows you to outspeed base 120's though, i put the rest of the evs in hp though you can also use the spread you have. Instead of Acrobatics and Flying Gem i just go with Brave Bird because you can use other items instead of flying gem.

    Talonflame @ Leftovers
    Ability: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 Spd / 36 SpDef
    Jolly Nature
    - Roost
    - U-turn
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Brave Bird / Tailwind

    This last one is more of a support i used which is somewhat underwhelming but works some times also. With Flame Body and Will-O-Wisp and Talonflames you cripple most physical attacker before they can attack you and comebine this set with Roost and U-Turn Talonflame can be pretty hard to take down, though you would have to comebine this set with a rapid spinner, so sr don't screw you over. Overall this set might be more UU or RU material, but i find it to be mentionable.

    This is pretty much what i have been using, and i think the first set could use some mentioning, or atleast talk about brave bird in the set, because i find it to be better than Acrobatics in some cases. These are pretty much sets i think you might need to add to the analysis overall though i think the second one might not be need, though the first 1 should as it pretty much the one you talk about accept for brave bird and agility onto the set.
  4. azureleaf17

    azureleaf17

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    Though Talonflame has really good power with a SD and two of the best physical STABs in the game, its poor defenses, typing (along with Stealth Rock weakness), and reliance on recoil moves hurt it a lot. It's not going to find much of an opportunity to switch in even on a weakened Pokemon, because its defenses are so bad and its offense is average at best to begin with. It seems to be a worse Staraptor, with slightly better Speed and a better STAB traded for a worse defensive typing and a lack of immediate offensive power... both are nukes if used correctly, but a nuke shouldn't have to set up.

    That being said, priority Brave Bird or Acrobatics seems fun. As well as priority recovery in Roost, but going first with it is usually much more of a bane to a Pokemon with such bad defenses and typing.
    PokeDoll and TaBuu like this.
  5. Kejmur

    Kejmur

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    I still would say Talonflame is Pokemon which easily will impact metagame much stronger then Staraptor, because he actually has GREAT double STAB combination, while Staraptor only good STAB on Brave Bird (Staraptor misses ALOT STAB on Close Combat and many Steels like Skarmory, Jirachi, Metagross which aren't Fighting weak wall it to no end and Normal is really meh typing offensively, ALSO walled by defensive Rock and Steel types). Flare Blitz obliterates most of bulky Flying resists (for example those three have no snowball chance to survive STAB Flare Blitz and for Tyranitar which may try to wall Talonflame, you may run Steel Wing). Also Staraptor doesn't learn Swords Dance, it's much slower and he wishes to have such an incredible priority like Talonflame has. The only advantage Staraptor has is that he deals much easier with Tyranitar (and Talon can still beat TTar with Steel Wing, so it's not that big of advantage) and better bulk, but Staraptor isn't tank/wall in the first place, so this increased bulk doesn't help that much. And honestly I wouldn't compare those two in the first place, as Staraptor is more of Hit And Run (and SR weakness doesn't help here) or Wallbreaking Pokemon, which is supposed to hit deal as much damage as possible early/mid game to allow others teammates to finish, while Talonflame looks like a great revenge killer or late game cleaner. I would say totally different Pokemon.

    I would also say that Talonflame is interesting addition. His Flying priority alone is really anti-metagame tool (MegaLucario, MegaGengar, Terrakion, Keldeo, Volcarona, etc.), which are all scary future metagame sweepers, can be easily revenge killed by this Flying priority. BTW what kind of special movepool Talonflame has ? Because he may invest lots of EVs in both Attack and Special attack and be mostly used as a Revenge Killer/Baiter which holds many sweepers at bay (STAB Oveheat with some little additional EVs should hurt even coming from such SpA). Although his 4x SR weakness sucks badly, it is workable (look at Volcarona) and with Greninja sounding like an awesome Rapid Spinner, which beats so far ALL ghost spin blockers with combination of Hydro Pump and/or Dark Pulse keeping rocks off should be much easier. And you may still run Magic Bounce users like Xatu, Espeon or MegaAbsol to keep SR out of the field with good predictions. It's also frail and he needs Swords Dance to gain good power, but I think his revenge kill potential is incredible with priority on those Flying STAB attacks and so far he sounds like one of the best late game cleaners. He may end up OU, as his advantages IMO overrule disadvantages. Fun and neat Pokemon IMO ;).
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Talonflame doesn't need all that Speed. I think the best spread for the SD set is this: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe with Adamant. Enough Speed to outrun the faster Pokemon that you will need Flare Blitz for (252+ Speed Jirachi) and rest goes to bulk to help with Flare Blitz recoil, as you have priority in Acrobatics anyway.

    Also, remove Flame Body from the proposed set as Talonflame without Gale Wings is useless in OU.

    Oh and Flame Charge, which has been boosted to 60 BP in 6th gen, could be a decent alternative to Flare Blitz if you find the recoil + SR damage to be too much, although you would need to weaken Steel-types beforehand.
  7. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Adamant should definitely be the preferred nature in this case. You still outspeed Latios, Latias, Gengar, etc. but you also get to use an attack comparable to Starmie's Timid Special Attack (I believe it's around 280-something with Adamant). The things you outspeed with a Jolly Nature get pummeled by a +2 priority Brave Bird regardless of your speed. Things like Starmie, Alakazam, Weavile, Dugtrio, and even Jolteon all take quite a bit from Brave Bird, so the Jolly nature it pretty much useless.

    EDIT: Ninja'd by alexwolf
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  8. TheBurgerKing99

    TheBurgerKing99

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    You may want to write up a choice band set that would work more as a revenge killer than a sweeper, otherwise this post is amazing and I am glad you beat me to writing it, as I was planning on doing.
  9. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
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    with such frail defenses I'm leaning more towards a Flying Gem+Acrobatics set rather than BB, leaving Flare Blitz as my only recoil move increasing my longevity, though Base 80 seems pretty tame w/o an LO boost.
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  10. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Definition of a kamikaze pokemon it seems. Perfect speed and ability to abuse great offensive STAB attacks with high BP. Acrobatics seems bar-none the thing to prioritize. Such high speed does allow it to put a little more into it's attack stats. It's move pool is so limited though. Outside of being brittle, its main downside will be predictability.
  11. TooMuchSugar

    TooMuchSugar

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    If you can keep stealth rocks down, CB would be an amazing revenge killer. If rocks are up, though, it's useless.
  12. Pen Ink

    Pen Ink

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    Talonflame + Greninja + Grass type is looking like a delicious core to me.

    CB set sounds really great, but I'm sure Swords Dance is going to be very viable with that base 130 Speed and two fantastic stab move.
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  13. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Talonflame + Greninja + MegaVenusaur perhaps?
  14. Pen Ink

    Pen Ink

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    I was actually thinking CB Talonflame + Greninja + Rotom-C to form a nice VoltTurn core with Rapid Spin and Spikes mixed in. MegaVenusaur doesn't sound half bad though to pivot out of Water types into Venu.
  15. Lovelace

    Lovelace

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    I've been using choice band and I've been underwhelmed by the lack of power and self destruction due to hazards and recoil. I think offensive life orb might be more useful for an Arcanine style come in and do as much damage before dying kinda thing. Swords dance also looks promising. All in all this guy doesn't really seem to be on par with a lot of the other new threats but he's pretty stylish so I'll probably use it a lot.
  16. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    It isn't as tough as other threats to handle - it's definitely UU or lower. But as it stands, SD and priority Brave Bird is... quite a thing. Sure, it's frail, but just about nothing in lower tiers can revenge kill it, meaning after an SD and assuming LO is the item it can blast its way through a team to either clean it up or set up a sweep/other cleaner.
  17. chad1996

    chad1996

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    The swords dance set is pretty good, but I think it would have a hard time setting up with its 4x SR weakness and general lack of bulk. Personally, I think a banded one with gale wind and brave bird would be a great set. It could function as a late game sweeper through great speed and access to a 120bp stab attack. The recoil could wear it down quickly, so you might want to opt for a flying gem and acrobatics for the same purpose. This is similar to the swords dance set, but I just don't see it being able to set up on anything. I think it would be better off running a coverage move instead of swords dance.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    You shouldn't be using Choice Band on a 4x weak Stealth Rock Pokemon with poor bulk. Switching in and out isn't this guy's strong point, Talonflame should aim to do as much damage as possible when it comes in, so if you want a strong revenge killer just use Flying Gem Acrobatics. Yeah, it loses power after its Flying Gem has been consumed, but still 110 STAB BP is the strongest priority attack in OU (not counting items), and is enough to OHKO any offensive Pokemon weak to it, while also having the best neutral coverage out of all the other priority attacks. Basically, as long as Talonflame is alive, you can pick off any sweeper that has 50% or less HP and doesn't resist Steel (so, anything except from Thundurus-T and Jirachi).

    Also, don't use Brave Bird guys, especially not with Life Orb. Is it not enough to you that Talonflame has a 4x SR weakness, is frail and difficult to bring in, has low HP, and already has a suicidal STAB? Come on, apply some common logic.
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  19. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    But going by the logic that you need to switch in and smash the opponent quickly, with a single strong stroke, Priority Brave Bird is stronger than Acrobatics at base when items aren't factored in. In OU, Talonflame's purpose seems to be pop in, smash stuff, and die while hopefully taking something with it.
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Flying Gem Acrobatics > LO Brave Bird. KOing something and staying alive is better than KOing something and dying in the process (for example, you OHKO specially defensive Hippowdon with both moves, but with Brave Bird you die in the process if SR is up). Not to mention that even 1% Talonflame would be useful with Acrobatics, as it could revenge kill multiple Pokemon if SR is not on the field, while with Brave Bird it only gets one chance, and if the opponent switches out as you attempt to revenge kill his sweeper you died for nothing.
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  21. Mattman324

    Mattman324

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    Only the opening Acrobatics is better, and if you're running something other than Life Orb (I don't know, a Lum Berry maybe?), then you get two Brave Birds out - probably the same number of Acrobatics you're going to get off. Though I think Acro is still stronger over two...

    The point remains that Talonflame won't be that amazing in OU aside from niche roles.
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  22. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed HOMERUN, CABRONES
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    Personally I would just add one EV in Speed so Talonflame can outrun max Speed neutral-natured MegaLucario at worst; iirc it sits at 115 Spe and should use an Adamant nature, and that extra Speed is just in case TalonFlame is stuck using either an Acrobatics that has already expended Flying Gem or the more hard-hitting and super effective Flare Blitz.

    That aside, I think this mon is pretty cool! What I would use is just an attacking set with Swords Dance as an optional rather than required move; Swords Dance can be used for stall, but otherwise I find it hard to find opportunities to use it. Instead, I'd rather use Tailwind, which, if I'm hopefully right, gets priority thanks to Gale Wing and can be used to help out your other teammates in desperate situations. It's a REALLY good last-resort move, especially when paired with Pokemon such as Choice Band Kyurem-B (once those Fairies are out) and Mega-Medicham.

    My flavor:

    name: Attacker
    move 1: Acrobatics / Brave Bird
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Tailwind
    move 4: Roost / U-turn / Swords Dance
    item: Flying Gem / Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    ability: Gale Wing
    evs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spe

    Great revenge killer for monstrous Pokemon such as Blaziken, Mega Medicham, Mega Gengar, and Dragon Dance / Quiver Dance Pokemon on a rampage. Plays a utility role thanks to Tailwind, and can come in either Acrobatics + Flying Gem, or Life Orb + Brave Bird. I'm a Staraptor player, so I'm biased when it comes to the latter combination. Hidden Power Ice and Fire Blast can be used with LO if it has trouble against Gliscor or Skarmory, though obviously they're weak otherwise.
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  23. Vryheid

    Vryheid fudge jelly

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    Being able to switch into and force out extremely common Blaziken/Volcarona sets seems like reason enough to use this for me. Talonflame's typing and speed make this Pokemon extremely difficult to revenge kill, as it's fast as hell and most Pokemon with priority like Scizor and Conkeldurr all get demolished by the proper coverage move. Personally, U-turn is my favorite option for the fourth slot because it does an excellent job keeping momentum and I don't see how Talonflame is going to get a chance to heal much HP with Roost with those mediocre defenses.
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  24. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    U-Turn is a little risky sometimes due to the fact that Talonflame might not get another chance to switch in (Stealth Rock).
    However it's still very viable.
    Brave Bird with Life Orb provides much stronger and consistent damage while Flying Gem Acrobatics avoids recoil and it's intial hit can literally crush anything.
  25. Shadow-XIII

    Shadow-XIII

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    A priority in Roost is what I find the most interesting. I think a good set would revolve around spreading burns with will-o-wisp, roosting, u-turns and acrobatics to take down weakened pokemon could work, despite talonflame's generally weak bulk. Unfortunately, Stealth rock will always be a pain for Talonflame.

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