You can't say that gems were as popular as, say Leftovers or Life orb. Perhaps it's because I only play 6 vs 6 singles, but any gem other than a flying gem for Acrobatics was nitch at best. It made the Acrobatics strategy good, but it was never over powered imho. I'll drop this though simply because we are starting to stray off topic.
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
- Start date
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Arcanine could be an interesting check. Intimidates on the switch and can threaten to outspeed with extreme speed. It's not exactly a great option, but arcanine does pack a punch and if for some reason you wanted a fire type on your team other than volcarona, charizard X, talonflame, or heatran...
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Nature: Adamant
Trait: Gale Wings
252 HP / 92 Atk / 164 Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Bulk Up
To whoever had this set, just know that I love you. I swapped your attack and HP evs, which is probably the wrong decision to make but I'm rolling with it... extra HP lets me hang in there once I've set up for an absurdly long time.
Rarely if ever do I see people speak in showdown matches; every time I've used bulk up, I always get a comment. Usually along the lines of, "Oh, ****."
It's just an entirely different set than what they're prepared for, seems to be; they're used to Talonflame Choice Band max attack gogogo I guess? I don't know. But the bulk up/defensive investment allows you to weather through a hand full of attackers that I normally wouldn't have been able to, namely surviving priority moves. I'm not the best player, 1600 is pretty run of the mill, especially atm, but I'd say this set is the MVP of my team and it's extremely resilient to revenging. That's why I like it :) It doesn't have the immediate brutal impact of the flying gem/band sets, but it isn't checked by the same things, either.
Nature: Adamant
Trait: Gale Wings
252 HP / 92 Atk / 164 Speed
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Bulk Up
To whoever had this set, just know that I love you. I swapped your attack and HP evs, which is probably the wrong decision to make but I'm rolling with it... extra HP lets me hang in there once I've set up for an absurdly long time.
Rarely if ever do I see people speak in showdown matches; every time I've used bulk up, I always get a comment. Usually along the lines of, "Oh, ****."
It's just an entirely different set than what they're prepared for, seems to be; they're used to Talonflame Choice Band max attack gogogo I guess? I don't know. But the bulk up/defensive investment allows you to weather through a hand full of attackers that I normally wouldn't have been able to, namely surviving priority moves. I'm not the best player, 1600 is pretty run of the mill, especially atm, but I'd say this set is the MVP of my team and it's extremely resilient to revenging. That's why I like it :) It doesn't have the immediate brutal impact of the flying gem/band sets, but it isn't checked by the same things, either.
As someone who uses brave bird/flare blitz with roost, is leftovers necessary or should I go with something else like (gasp) a life orb?
Most folks are using swords dance on their sets because it secures certain KO's, and generally your Talonflame should not try and stay in long term. Trying to be bulky while constantly using recoil moves is a bit contradictory. Besides, it has a 4x to rock and a weakness to water, not to mention that it will fall to any special attack.
Bulk Up seems like it would only allow you to tank through teams in very situational circumstances. Even after a Bulk Up or two, a strong Stone Edge will still wreck it, and it doesn't do anything to help with special attacks. I'm not sure I'm sold on Swords Dance sets yet either--unless Talonflame OHKO's everything, which it probably can't even after a Swords Dance, it will die from one hit and recoil. Choice Band seems like it's definitely the strongest way to use this falcon.
If it is going to force a switch, then why not Swords dance? It might help you kill their counter and I do not think Talonflame needs four attacking moves.
Posted this question on the Old Mon Discussion thread, but it might have been missed, since the thread moves so fast there:
How well does Rotom-W take Brave Birds and Flare Blitz from Talonflame without any investment in Hp or Defense? My main thoughts are where to put Rotom EVs, and nature. I have run into many different Rotom-W sets, some more apt defensively, while others are more offensive with either Choice Scarf/ Specs, Life Orb, and even Leftovers.
Was just wondering if anyone here has tried Rotom-W enough to comment on what set is working best for them,not just for Talonflame, but for overall use.
How well does Rotom-W take Brave Birds and Flare Blitz from Talonflame without any investment in Hp or Defense? My main thoughts are where to put Rotom EVs, and nature. I have run into many different Rotom-W sets, some more apt defensively, while others are more offensive with either Choice Scarf/ Specs, Life Orb, and even Leftovers.
Was just wondering if anyone here has tried Rotom-W enough to comment on what set is working best for them,
From personal experience, yes, Swords Dance does destroy quite a few Pokemon. The damage is so surprising you feel bad for using it! It may not be the set you want to use, there are other viable sets, but it's REALLY good. One Swords Dance at the right time when your opponent is in a vulnerable place can just seal everything. That goes for many Pokemon but it's especially true for Talonflame.
Personally, I run 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd Talonflame. Swords Dance / Roost / Brave Bird / Flare Blitz @ Gale Wings or Life Orb. It works wonders. This is genuinely an amazing Pokemon in every tier, heck run it in Ubers just to fuck over Blazken when it gets sent there!
Some of the best counters are indeed Heatran and Rotom-W. However, even they have to be careful if any damage has been done to them.
Personally, I run 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd Talonflame. Swords Dance / Roost / Brave Bird / Flare Blitz @ Gale Wings or Life Orb. It works wonders. This is genuinely an amazing Pokemon in every tier, heck run it in Ubers just to fuck over Blazken when it gets sent there!
Some of the best counters are indeed Heatran and Rotom-W. However, even they have to be careful if any damage has been done to them.
^It's a matter of finding opportunity, against Pokemon such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Ninetales, Celebi, etc. granted, status is dangerous and these Pokemon aren't exactly super common, the fact is that Talon doesn't have a whole lot of other better options. It's got no other coverage moves really (Steel Wing, lol), and U-turn isn't an ideal pick on a Swords Dance sweeper anyway. If the other options aren't amazing either (U-turn does like 30% to Tyranitar MAX... and it does like 80%+ to you with Pursuit...), then Roost becomes a lot more appealing for those rare times it is useful.
Otherwise... Will-o-Wisp, Substitute, and maybe Tailwind are the only other moves worth considering. Toxic is there too I guess if you REALLY hate Rotom-W and Ampharos.
Otherwise... Will-o-Wisp, Substitute, and maybe Tailwind are the only other moves worth considering. Toxic is there too I guess if you REALLY hate Rotom-W and Ampharos.
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If you can survive killing your first victim and their counter, roost becomes viable as they start throwing stuff like shadow sneak and other neutral moves at you, which you can survive and might be able to recharge for another brave bird. Otherwise it'll turn into a suicide bomber.
I mean, it is situational. But it's really good in some situations. For example, Talonflame walls the shit out of none other than the previous king of OU, Scizor. It can easily use Roost and Swords Dance to set up on it and KO whenever it wants. There are many situations like this where Pokemon can't really actually do much to Talonflame. Gliscor, Stall mons that rely on Will-O-Wisp, etc. I know it seems like you'd never get a chance to Roost but you really do.
I will say Tailwind is also really good on Talonflame especially if you run slow mons like Azumarill or Mega Mawile, it can really surprise and fuck over your opponent and it's pretty easy to sacrifice Talonflame while using it. It's hard to fit on pretty much all of his sets though. Sux.
Also, a friend told me that Roost actually doesn't remove the Flying type anymore. I know this was refuted here but he's pretty sure it doesn't anymore. This would be way better for Talonflame as it allows it to wall Scizor even better and stop taking random Earthquakes. :/
Due to this helpful thread I took out the useless Steel Wing and put in U-Turn. FAR more useful.
I've been using this set and found it working out pretty well.
Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Gale Wings
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
30 IV HP
Acrobatics
Flare Blitz
Swords Dance
Substitute
Pretty simple, switch in on something you can scare out, set up a sub, and SD as they break the sub, then sub again to activate your berry for the health and to power up Acrobatics. The HP EV is removed to cause Sitrus Berry to activate after just two Subs.
I tried Liechi for awhile, but I've found that the extra health from Sitrus can come in handy to essentially reset the clock and add a turn or two before Flare Blitz recoil kills you. FBlitz can also be used to get you into Sitrus/Acrobatics range, if necessary.
The speed is massive overkill, I know, but I hate losing to other Talonflames.
Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Gale Wings
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
30 IV HP
Acrobatics
Flare Blitz
Swords Dance
Substitute
Pretty simple, switch in on something you can scare out, set up a sub, and SD as they break the sub, then sub again to activate your berry for the health and to power up Acrobatics. The HP EV is removed to cause Sitrus Berry to activate after just two Subs.
I tried Liechi for awhile, but I've found that the extra health from Sitrus can come in handy to essentially reset the clock and add a turn or two before Flare Blitz recoil kills you. FBlitz can also be used to get you into Sitrus/Acrobatics range, if necessary.
The speed is massive overkill, I know, but I hate losing to other Talonflames.
So I tried the damage calculator for the first time, because I wanted to know how well Rotom-W could take hits without any investment in Defense. Please let me know if there's an error in my calcs:
252+ Atk Life Orb Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 96-113 (39.66 - 46.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Leftovers Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 74-87 (30.57 - 35.95%) -- 50.78% chance to 3HKO
(Swords Danced) 252+ Atk Leftovers Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 148-174 (61.15 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Swords Danced) 252+ Atk Life Orb Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (79.33 - 93.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Anyway, the Swords Dance varients render non bulky Rotom-W switches unreliable because it will 2HKO you with Brave Bird, and that's not even factoring Stealth Rock into account. These are all Adamant Talonflame too, so the Jolly might be a little easier to deal with.
Can someone please confirm these calcs? I feel like something is off <.<
252+ Atk Life Orb Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 96-113 (39.66 - 46.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Leftovers Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 74-87 (30.57 - 35.95%) -- 50.78% chance to 3HKO
(Swords Danced) 252+ Atk Leftovers Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 148-174 (61.15 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Swords Danced) 252+ Atk Life Orb Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 192-226 (79.33 - 93.38%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Anyway, the Swords Dance varients render non bulky Rotom-W switches unreliable because it will 2HKO you with Brave Bird, and that's not even factoring Stealth Rock into account. These are all Adamant Talonflame too, so the Jolly might be a little easier to deal with.
Can someone please confirm these calcs? I feel like something is off <.<
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What is off is that every uses physically defensive rotom now because of talonflame.
Talonflame is just nasty and probably the most dangerous pokemon this gen. I used it as a counter to offensive teams. Priority Brave Bird is just too strong and unlike Aegislash, Talonflame is nearly impossible to check.
Talonflame @ LO
Ability: Gale Wings
252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 Speed
Adamant Nature (+Attack , - Sp. Attack)
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz
- Roost
U-turn works very well with trappers and set up pokemons as Talonflame checks nearly all share the same typing
Talonflame @ LO
Ability: Gale Wings
252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 Speed
Adamant Nature (+Attack , - Sp. Attack)
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Flare Blitz
- Roost
U-turn works very well with trappers and set up pokemons as Talonflame checks nearly all share the same typing
impossible to check? Most rock types can survive his stab moves and return SE damage to him. Heatran pretty much stops him in his tracks (unreleased, but what ever). Rotom-W exists to beat this guy. Also extreme speed beats his priority, which is in the hands of a lot of powerful pokemon such as Zygarde (a very underrated threat), Lucario (often replaced by bullet punch, but not always), Dragonite (ALWAYS a threat, at least when pokebank comes out), Deoxys (Normal form looks like it'll be OU this gen) and Arcanine (UU, but he might get some usage as he's not completely unviable this gen). And lets not forget his major reliance on rapid spin/defog coverage. You can avoid a lot of these with U-turn, but I think calling this guy impossible to check is asking for trouble.
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You do realize Aegislash has 150 base dual offenses, while Talonflame is outright countered by every good dual resist out there, right?
It is true that Talonflame can be very troublesome for offense, but even offense can pack a good check for it. Tyranitar, Barbaracle, Rotom-W, Heatran, and also physically bulky mons (that aren't weak to its attacks) for Talonflames that cannot boost. Talonflame also gets worn down extremely easily, between its recoil-inducing attacks and Stealth Rock ensuring it cannot hop in and out of battle so easily. Defog is a thing, but forcing them to go for it to support Talonflame can buy you a turn to do some work and can outright prevent Defog with proper offensive pressure. Not to mention few things grant Talonflame easy switch-ins, much less setup, but Talonflame is indeed very dangerous as it can keep your frailer sweepers in check. Really though, one solid switch-in to Talonflame is all you need to keep the bird in check (as well as SR).
Not to mention, Aegislash is a lot more versatile in move-sets than we have seen of Talonflame's so far. Aegislash can go all physical, all special, or mixed - whereas we always see Talonflame with more or less the same move-set, varying only between a more defensive set with Bulk Up/Roost, or all out offense with Swords Dance, Life Orb, or Leftovers. With all of this being said, it's easier for us to guess what Talonflame is going to do as opposed to Aegislash's variety of options.
If my calcs were correct at all, this is further testament that even 'counters' to Talonflame will take a heavy beating if they're not invested in some bulk. The fact that Rotom-W can potentially be 2HKO'd by merely switching into Talonflame only proves how powerful priority Brave Bird can be. And if Talonflame has Swords Danced at all, even the bulkiest Rotom-W is under great strain.
I haven't even run calcs for Tyranitar yet, but I imagine bulky Tyranitar may fare a little better than Rotom-W, though he won't like U-Turn, especially if it's at +2.
If my calcs were correct at all, this is further testament that even 'counters' to Talonflame will take a heavy beating if they're not invested in some bulk. The fact that Rotom-W can potentially be 2HKO'd by merely switching into Talonflame only proves how powerful priority Brave Bird can be. And if Talonflame has Swords Danced at all, even the bulkiest Rotom-W is under great strain.
I haven't even run calcs for Tyranitar yet, but I imagine bulky Tyranitar may fare a little better than Rotom-W, though he won't like U-Turn, especially if it's at +2.
Fair enough, but my point still remains that Tyranitar won't like U-Turn. Regardless, I still think he has less to fear than Rotom-W (cause Tyranitar is pretty damn bulky, resists both of Talonflame's stabs) and can send Stone Edges right back to the bird. With Stealth Rock on the field, Crunch would be just fine too.
I have actually ran into someone with U-Turn and Swords Dance. Even though it seems contradictory, it's not like Talonflame has a great number of moves to choose from other than Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, Roost, and U-Turn. Also, Choice Banded U-Turn can still be put into perspective.
Oh and for the record...
Non-invested Tyranitar
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 164-195 (48.09 - 57.18%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 188-222 (55.13 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hp-invested Tyranitar
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 164-195 (40.59 - 48.26%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 188-222 (46.53 - 54.95%) -- 64.84% chance to 2HKO
This is just for regular Tyranitar, not Mega.
I have actually ran into someone with U-Turn and Swords Dance. Even though it seems contradictory, it's not like Talonflame has a great number of moves to choose from other than Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Bulk Up, Swords Dance, Roost, and U-Turn. Also, Choice Banded U-Turn can still be put into perspective.
Oh and for the record...
Non-invested Tyranitar
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 164-195 (48.09 - 57.18%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 188-222 (55.13 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Hp-invested Tyranitar
252+ Atk Life Orb (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 164-195 (40.59 - 48.26%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band (custom) U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4- Def Tyranitar: 188-222 (46.53 - 54.95%) -- 64.84% chance to 2HKO
This is just for regular Tyranitar, not Mega.
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