Since Talonflame doesn't suffer from 4MSS, I think is a good option to run Overheat with him. I still wonder why I haven't see it.
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Pokémon Talonflame
- Thread starter TaBuu
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Because overheat is a Sp attack isn't it? If so thats why.
It's an special attack, yeah, but it still has 130 Base Power backing it up. Since Talonflame doesn't care about the stats drop, this can see some kind of use on none-Swords Dance variants that are walled by mons like Gliscor or Avalugg.
Overheat has its uses, but then it's competing for moveslots like Roost, U-Turn, WoW, etc. I do think it's a valid choice, however, considering Talonflame has piss poor defenses anyway and doesn't mind running a -Def/SpD nature, and would love to OHKO the likes of Physically Defensive Ferrothorn without taking Iron Barbs/Rocky Helmet damage.
Why use it tho when Flareblitz does the same amount(I believe) and has the attack to back it up, and since Talonflame has more attack, a physical move with the same BP as a special attack will do alot more.
I think it's a lesser option. You'd have to invest in order for it to do anything, which takes away either from need hp, attack, or speed evs. Also, Talonflame's special attack is not that great, so it still won't provide much of an oomph.
What are some good counters to this guy? Priority brave bird eats all my pokes! Would Moltres do a job on it?
Rotom-W is an extremely good counter. Resists both its STABs, and can threaten with Hydro Pump or WoW if Talonflame decides to switch/U-Turn.
Edit: Alternatively, Rotom-H. Resists both STABS, doesn't give a crap about WoW, and resists U-Turn. However, the best it can threaten with is Volt Switch/Thunderbolt.
Rotoms need heavy defensive investment to actually take hits from a +2 Talonflame. Also have fun trying to use WoW on Talonflame.
A great counter is Tyranitar. While it is a bit weak to U-Turn, only a +2 U-Turn would have a chance to OHKO him (you don't even need Defense investment, 252/0 works well), and a Talonflame that uses Swords Dance and U-Turn has no moveslots for Roost. Tyranitar is even more useful because it can check Mega Gengar, which is a nice to be able to do, and is just an amazing Pokemon overall.
Barbaracle is also a Talonflame check. While it needs defensive investment to avoid being 2HKOed by Brave Bird, it does resist Talonflame's dual STAB. Although Barbaracle is more of a Shell Smash sweeper.
Ancientpower Heatran also counters him...though using Ancientpower to beat one mon may be a bit extreme.
Mega snorlax, two words, stealth rocks
Tyrantrum also makes a good work at countering Talonflame. While it doesn't scare away WoW variants, any other dies to it.
I meant that if you predict a switch, you can WoW the switchin if Talonflame decides to gtfo.
The Rotom forms may not be the best counter to +2 Talonflame, but still think that they're a good switchin to a fresh Talonflame, not one that's already set up. Physically defensive Rotom-W can switchin while Talonflame SDs, and can threaten back with Hydro Pump. It might lose a lot of HP int the process, but its worth it to deal with Talonflame. Tyranitar is similar in the sense that it could take a ton of damage from U-Turn but it will threaten to OHKO it. Plus, Rotom-W and Rotom-H are both quite good for any other purpose, just like Tyranitar.
0+ Atk Stealth Rock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 207-207 (50.00 - 50.00%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
those sure are some calcs
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Yes... but by that measure, ANY Rock-type is a good counter to Talonflame. Golem, Gigalith, Kabutops, Barbaracle, the list goes on. The trouble is keeping your Rock-type counters intact for the entire match, because Rock is a notoriously poor defensive type aside from checking Talonflame. All of these Pokemon are also suckers for WoWs or U-Turns out to a special attacker. Talonflame is predictable, but the problem is that even when you know what's coming it's hard to deal with.
And by the way, Rotom-W is an excellent Talonflame check, and physically defensive Rotom is the everywhere for that exact reason:
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Rotom-W: 130-153 (42.76 - 50.32%)
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 174-204 (43.06 - 50.49%) - for comparison.
This just illustrates my point that you not only need a solid check, but you MUST keep that check in good health. Tyranitar, Tyrantrum, Golem, and Gigalith do double-duty as excellent SR users, which is often the best Talonflame check of all!
Just one thing to note; while most rock types only resist firex2, Tyrantrum resists is x4, so that gives him a lot more of survavility, hehe.
Shroomisaur
Smogon's fantastical fun-guy.
Yes, Kabutops and Barbaracle do as well... but that's not important since 90% of the time Talonflame will just click Brave Bird, and if they do predict your switch you'll just eat a WoW or U-turn.
Rotom just checks so many things in this meta, which is why he is everywhere. Heat would probably be more popular if it weren't for the SR weakness, which really reduces his ability to check things like Talonflame (as those calcs show).
As for Sharp Beak, yes it's a great option over Life Orb since as I said, Brave Bird will be your go-to attack. I prefer it because Talonflame's number 1 counter is passive damage and Life Orb only makes things worse! LO does offer slightly more power and boosts your other moves as well, so it's up to you.
Ugh, SR always ruining things. Sucks to be Heat I guess.
Ya, that's what I thought, guess it's worth a try. You get Sharp Beak in the main story, or do you have to get it off of something(with Thief)? Sharp Beak can also make it look like you're Banded(well, Jolly Banded).
The Sky Plate does the same thing as Sharp Beak...and it's easier to get in-game too. It doesn't really matter which one you use though (Bulbapedia doesn't say where you get the Sharp Beak in XY...so...).
Also, since no one is running Jolly Banded, and Brave Bird hits for such low damage on bulkier mons that you'll probably be using Swords Dance a lot.
Counter: Switches in on any move and then kills or forces a switch.
Check: Comes in after a pokemon died to revenge kill, or, is able to switch in on some but not all possible moves.
NOTE: These pokemon are counters when Talonflame has just switched in. If Talonflame is already at +2 or +4 or +6 then you can't necessarily switch to these. You need to switch immediately and don't give it a single free turn.
Heatran, especially physically defensive heatran, is probably the best counter. But some Talonflames use Roost, so you probably need to carry Earth Power or Hidden Power Rock or Ancient Power or Roar to actually beat it. Use the opportunity to set up stealth rock, then use the move of choice to kill it or roar it out.
Tyranitar, comes in and causes sandstorm, which will tell you if it is using leftovers or not. Has many options to kill talonflame, including stone miss, thunderbolt, and dark STABs. Susceptible to u-turn.
Hippowdon with maximum hp and defense takes 65 - 76.66% from a +2 Gem Acrobatics, or, 35.71 - 42.14% from two CB Brave Birds. Needs stone miss to get the kill though.
Rhyperior, Golem, Gliscor, Donphan, Regirock, eviolite Rhydon, and Gigalith function similarly. Some of them have the 100% accurate Smack Down to use, or the more rewarding Head Smash.
Slowbro at near maximum defenses takes 31.47 - 37.05% from CB u-turn, or, 39.84 - 47.2% from CB Brave bird, or, 73.09 - 86.04% from +2 Gem Acrobatics.
Gyarados, maximum defensive bulk gyarados with intimidate and leftovers. Switches in and intimidates talonflame, who may have possibly used Swords Dance. +1 Flying Gem Acrobatics does 68.02 - 80.2%, but waterfall kills it in return. Two -1 CB Brave Birds does 32.99 - 39.08% x2. Leftovers are important to avoid SR.
Salamence, (maximum defensive bulk with leftovers) functions just like gyarados, it even has the same base HP and almost exactly the same base defense. Survives +1 Gem Acrobatics and ohkos back.
Landorus-T is similar. Slightly lower base HP but slightly higher base Def. Crucially is only neutral to SR, meaning it does not need leftovers
Mandibuzz: maximum defense bulky takes 70.21 - 82.97% from +2 flying gem acrobatics and ohkos back with Foul Play
Umbreon would take 73.09 - 86.04% from +2 gem acrobatics and ohko back with Foul Play
Rotom-W or Rotom-H, if you invest in some defences then you can handle anything it does to you and ohko back with hydro pump or thunderbolt or possibly voltswitch.
Aggron, with maximum hp and defense, takes 31.68 - 37.79% from CB Flareblitz or 54.65 - 65.11% from +2 LO Flare Blitz
Kabutops switches in to anything and ohkos
Omastar, Carracosta, Relicanth, and Barbacle do the same.
Ampharos at maximum defenses takes 52.6 - 61.97% from CB Flare Blitz when it switches in, followed by like 25% after it megaevolves and ohkos with STAB
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I've been running a choice band set with adament nature and max attack evs and max speed evd. I use brave bird flare blitz u turn and a random 4th move. It works great as a scout and revenge killer with priority brave bird. Really needs spin support though
No need to run steel wing. It's way too inaccurate and weak and for what? More coverage against rock types? Even a super effective hit is 140 BP and stab brave bird is 180.
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