1. Welcome to Smogon! Check out the Smogon Starters Hangout for everything you need to know about starting out in the community. Don't forget to introduce yourself in the Introduction and Hangout Thread, too!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Talonflame

Discussion in 'Doubles' started by Joim, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. Joim

    Joim Navigate the pitfalls, cross the great divide!
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris an Administratoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,752
    Talonflame #663
    [​IMG]
    Type: [​IMG][​IMG]
    Base Stats: 78 hp / 81 atk / 71 def / 74 spa / 69 spd / 126 spe
    Ability: Flame Body / Gale Wings (H)

    • Flame Body has a 30% chance of Burning the opponent if the user is hit with a move that makes contact.
    • Gale Wings provides a +1 priority to all of the user's Flying-Type moves.
    Movepool: (currently being researched)

    • Brave Bird
    • Flare Blitz
    • Tackle
    • Growl
    • Quick Attack
    • Peck
    • Agility
    • Flail
    • Ember
    • Roost
    • Razor Wind
    • Natural Gift
    • Flame Charge
    • Acrobatics
    • Me First
    • Tailwind
    • Steel Wing
    • Protect
    • Return
    • Rest
    • Thief
    • Will-O-Wisp
    • Swords Dance
    • Sleep Talk
    • U-Turn
    Notable Moves:
    The obvious powerful STABs are Flare Blitz, Brave Bird and Acrobatics. Steel Wing provides coverage.

    Potential Moveset:

    Name: "Screw you Ludicolo"
    Item: Flying Gem (once released) | Charti Berry | Life Orb
    Ability: Gale Wings
    Nature: Adamant
    EV Spread: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Moveset:
    Acrobatics / Brave Bird
    Flare Blitz
    Roost
    Tailwind / Steel Wing

    Priority Acrobatics or Brave Bird. There, I said it. Wait, wait for it: with priority Roost and priority Tailwind. This Pokémon with terrible stats does not seem so bad now, huh? But the ability to OHKO Ludicolo even if it gets Baton Passed +6 speed in rain and remain untouched is not all. This fire bird will be troublesome for both opposing Tailwind teams and Trick Room teams, since the speed won't really matter - only other priority, weaker moves will go before him, such as slow TR Scizor with Bullet Punch, which will deal to Talonflame pathetic damage.

    While Stealth Rock will be its demise on singles, we all know Stealth Rock is seen much less in Doubles. With the addition of Spider Web we might see a lot of defog and rapid spin around, even, which all helps Talonflame. Hitmontop will be an excellent teammate, providing spread move protection with Wide Guard and getting rid of nasty Tyranitar, who can end Talonflame in a matter of seconds, unless you pack Steel Wing and hope to KO ttar with it.

    Discuss: Does priority Brave Bird provide a place in Doubles for a Pokémon with stats so bad? May he become a priority Tailwind setter for Tailwind teams?
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2013
  2. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    4,081
    as someone who both wrote talonflame's analysis and has been using him since the first day of gen vi, I feel like i should probably comment on this thread!

    first, your talonflame stats don't match the current ones of the research thread, which are 78/81/71/74/69/126 (weird rite).

    more importantly, that talonflame set is a very bad idea. Steel Wing only hits two Pokemon in this meta harder than STAB, and those are TTar and Rhyperior, both of which just laugh at it and then rock slide you ded. You didn't list Taunt anywhere, which is a real puzzle, since without Thund, Talonflame has a great secondary role as a TR beater between taunt and priority. Charti Berry sounds good on paper, but Talonflame is so weak it really needs the extra power, and anyways 252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Charti Berry (custom): 272-324 (91.27 - 108.72%) -- 50% chance to OHKO. Brave Bird should obviously be slashed in front of Acro until FGem is released, and since pokebank can't transfer items, god knows how long that'll take. Lastly, no mention of protect? Roost instead? Tyranitar's Rock Slide has a 50% chance to OHKO a pure-fire Talonflame, but you don't even need to go that far to negate roost healing: 0 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 127-151 (42.61 - 50.67%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO will do it with sand damage. With all that considered, a much better talonflame set would be:

    Talonflame @ LO / Flying Gem (once announced)
    Adamant
    Gale Wings
    252 spe 252 atk 4 hp
    - flare blitz
    - brave bird / Acro (once flying gem)
    - protect / tailwind
    - protect / taunt

    As for Talonflame in the meta—I have only played with it against a couple users, and never against it, but my biggest impression was: easy to play around. Talonflame has only single-target moves and some hard counters, and the ease of my opponents to give it only one target and then Protect made it only marginally useful in most matches. It could still KO things, but what I'm trying to say is don't put it on your team to patch a weakness because it'll be KOed before its target is ever available.

    (Also re: sticky web, ive actually never seen it and don't think I will often bc its users are just so shit, and so many pokemon in Doubles float—the only two mons on my team affected, for example, are aegislash and scrafty. Thinking sr will remain top hazard this gen)
    Pocket likes this.
  3. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    As someone who's used talonflame quite a bit, I'm going to have to say, it's stats aren't too impressive, but i really like prio brave bird. Its priority is quite strong, and it's actually a little bulky. Decent fire check and can even threaten TR due to its really strong prio STAB. Here's the set I used:

    Talonflame @ Life Orb
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Flare Blitz
    - Tailwind
    - Will-O-Wisp
    Ignore the will-o-wisp, idrc what i run in that slot, but it can be occasionally useful for aegislash. As pwn said, taunt is a good move on it. However, Talonflame is quite easily cockblocked by any remotely defensive Pokemon, and with Pokebank giving us Heatran and Cress, it's basically GG for it. Still, prio bb and tailwind imo are pretty great for reasons i mentioned. ^_^
  4. lucariojr

    lucariojr it's nothing to sneasel at
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,593
    ive been using/running into a lot of talonflame on GBU lately. i put it on my team because i was slightly weak to scizor (and i wanted to use it), but generally, i've found its best use to be checking more general threats. like, it can't really threaten anything specific, it just covers a bunch of faster threats like QD volcarona, scarfed mons, noivern, etc. and by 'cover' i mean that i need to be super careful about them protecting, and i need to have a little damage on them to OHKO them, which is usually supplied by sandstorm damage or a partner excadrill/FO user. another thing i like about talonflame is how it acts as a safety net against said faster threats; as long as i have talonflame in the back, i can confidently ignore that threat for a while whilst it wastes turns protecting (if i'm up against someone smart and they know how threatening that mon is to me) until i can bring in talonflame safely to KO it. it's that kind of aspect i like about this sort of pokemon-- it gives you a sort of idea of how you want the endgame to turn out, allowing you to adjust your plays accordingly. so in short i guess, keep your talonflames in the back and don't waste it on earlygame.
    ofrocks, Skore, Joim and 2 others like this.
  5. TGL-00

    TGL-00

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2013
    Messages:
    7
    I definitely agree that Talonflame is best saved for the mid- and late-game. I've been using Sitrus Berry over LO just to mitigate the recoil damage it takes from Brave Bird and Flare Blitz and give it a tiny bit more longevity. It's not the most powerful mon offensively but it has just enough attack to make use of BB to finish off already weakened threats and can use Tailwind/Taunt when it's on its way out to support the rest of the team. It's rarely a dead weight, regardless of the opponents strategy (sand teams being the most threatening for it, as mentioned in the OP) - priority lets it bypass TR and Chlorophyll (arguably Swift Swim abusers too, though it's not something I'd like to risk) whilst fire STAB also hits steel types hard, including Aegislash who only 3HKOs with an unboosted Shadow Sneak. Having not played the pokebank meta I can't say how well it's going to perform come December, but imo its role providing priority and clean-up against weakened threats should see it remain quite viable as long as Thundurus is out of the way. Rotom-W is one of the few things that can really ruin its day at the moment since most other water types still don't like taking a priority BB.

    I've found Klefki makes a great team-mate for Talonflame - safeguard and screens help keep it around for longer, whilst resisting fire attacks and being immune to ground attacks give Talonflame a good opportunity to switch in safely.
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2013
  6. sarysa

    sarysa

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    So a Talonflame debate ended up derailing another thread...maybe we could kick up the discussion here?

    We were discussing Wide Guard's mechanics changes, which are shared with Quick Guard which is supposedly a Talonflame counter these days. (still unconfirmed, though I hope to test it out tonight in rating doubles)

    Then I brought up the problem of a Hitmontop and Talonflame duo. Assume Talonflame is wearing a Choice Band. Assume Hitmontop has Fake Out, Feint, Wide Guard, and Close Combat. If you have an obvious counter like an electric/steel duo or an Intimidate mon, Talonflame will just switch out and come back at a more favorable time. It's most likely that Talonflame won't be brought in right away because your smart opponent saw these in the preview.

    This Talonflame can one-shot almost anything that's weak to flying, even defensively built Hariyama and Mega Abomasnow. (not sure about Conkeldurr) Hitmontop can Fake Out threats or Feint through a Quick Guard, ensuring Talonflame gets that first devastating blow. Even if you take it out, it will often be with casualties of your own. Losing your fight-type with Wide Guard early on could be nasty if your opponent follows it up with multi-target moves.

    So how, short of having an impractical party of all stall defenders and elec/rock/steel attackers, how does one get rid of this thing with minimal losses?

    Others' quotes...

    My reply to this about the opponent switching out (or from the outset, saving for later) saving Talonflame until these threats are eliminated. This one mon also restricts the makeup of your team so that it -must- include something Talonflame-proof, so that alone makes it a credible threat. I also mentioned the popularity of Trace Gardevoir and the risk involved using Intimidate and then getting her switched in on you.

    I've seen Talonflame in a Trick Room team. It still strikes with +1 priority, only it strikes after Klefki/Meowstic's status torments in a Trick Room.
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2013
  7. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,637
    I've been using Talonflame in Trick Room, I know this :\ my point is that using Trick Room can control its actions and make it more predictable since its huge Speed no longer helps it for other moves. Talonflame really doesn't like Trick Room because suddenly the targets of everything besides Brave Bird are getting to move first, and if it wants to KO that Ferrothorn it has to endure chip damage from spread attacks and even direct hits.
  8. sarysa

    sarysa

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Even if I were to switch to a trick room team...gah, you can't neuter it with Will-O-Wisp, you can roll the dice with Thunder Wave or sleep moves but the RNG will often hate you. Not to mention smart players will just switch it out when Fake Out is a concern.

    Maybe you don't band yours but no matter what I do this fucking overpowered piece of shit (I'm glad people cuss in this forum, because I am PISSED) has taken me to my sanity limits. You can't play grass, fight, or bug types unless they have E/R/S coverage, and even then it has to have damn good defense. WTF were they thinking, giving a typed 120 damage move (180 with band) guaranteed priority? This has absolutely ruined doubles. The counters are too few and too predictable. Quick Guard is a half-assed counter which often only delays the inevitable. There aren't any real tanks (except legendaries) who can learn it either, and a lot of them are R/S which needs to be able to ATTACK the freaking bird. Your type coverage is going to be abysmal just to counter this one bird. Switching will always work against you because your cover move users or your stronger defenders will get nuked trying to switch in because most everything gets 1-2HKO'd by this thing...and it'll usually have a buddy who can cover its weaknesses. (fight is strong vs. two, neutral vs. the other)

    Every day, more and more people use it and I've just had enough. I don't know how to beat this thing with a smart opponent except to get my own max speed banded bird and hope I win the speed roll.

    But honestly, this fuck-up makes me just not want to play doubles anymore. It's not like GF will add it to the ban list, even though within a week from now everyone's going to have it in their party for the same reason the US and Russia have over 10k nukes each.

    That said, although it's more easily checkable in singles, this thing really needs to be in Ubers as far as doubles are concerned. I know the sticky says "don't discuss tiering" but gah, I need to rant, damnit!
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  9. lucariojr

    lucariojr it's nothing to sneasel at
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,593
    Or you could just use thund ttar or rotom w which can fit on any team really or stop using gimmick teams that cant handle the simplest and most straightforward of strategies because the only way ive ever had problems w bird is when my opp outplays me or when i was using a shitty hailroom team i slapped together just to scope the metagame. In both cases i didnt deserve to win. In all other cases i have at least one pokemon on my team to handle stuff like talonflame, as every team should.

    If you have trouble with talonflame (this goes for pretty much everything in doubles) then the problem is on your end. Stop declaring stuff broken when it clearly isnt. I would make a longer post about this but im on my phone though im sure other people will be happy to point out how not broken talonflame and how you need to suck it up.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  10. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,637
    I'm on it lucariojr

    The fact that a lot of us agree that Trevenant is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now should be going pretty far against your post.

    Talonflame is also probably the Pokemon that hates Protect more than any other. Its calling card is its priority Brave Bird, but its bulk is so low that if it gets blocked by Protect (a very good move in Doubles in case you didn't realize) it is going to die very quickly and very painfully. If it's using Choice Band, great, it's doing a shitload of damage! It's still a single target attacker with the bulk of a wet paper bag and now it's locked into a single move. If it's using Life Orb, it dies too quickly. If it's using some other item, it doesn't have enough power. If the opponent doesn't have something really frail and/or weak to Flying on the field it can't do its job properly, and if that Pokemon it kills isn't even the biggest threat to your team then you'll be stuck with a 50% Talonflame.

    For what it's worth, Cresselia, Landorus-T, and Heatran are all decent checks that haven't been released yet, and we still have some nice checks in Rotom-W, defensive Gyarados, Mega Ampharos, and any Rock-type that isn't Carbink. Also Stealth Rock - good last gen for genies and Volcarona, good this gen for Talonflame and Volcarona.
    Chenkovsky and Pwnemon like this.
  11. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    Rotom-W fucking cockblocks Talonflame, as does Rhyperior and TTar, but Rotom can hit it and OHKO it with any STAB it wants.

    Please quit calling things broken. Not even the mons banned from OU are broken here (Shaymin S, Deoxys, Darkrai, Blaziken, Excadrill, Lando-I) so I really fucking doubt a 4x Rock weak mon is going to be.
    ofrocks likes this.
  12. sarysa

    sarysa

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    I gave up on gimmick teams long ago, heh. I have Protect and a fairly wide type coverage, though yes I'll admit my team lacks STAB defensive coverage against the bird. That said, here are some of the experiences I've had with battles that contribute to my frustration:
    - Quick Guard with Meowstic, bird uses U-Turn instead. Meowstic one-shot. Bye bye counter to Brave Bird.
    - Fragile speedster hit with Brave Bird, had sash, max attack IVs/EVs/nature (80 base), non-STAB Rock Slide retaliation, the bird survived. WTF? Are people putting defense/HP on the bird now? (oh yeah, speed doesn't matter! so why not?) Same fragile speedster almost always one-shots Charizard (+Y) with Rock Slide from full health.
    - As mentioned earlier, someone combined taunt with the bird then switched to Storm Drain ability. Pretty much gave up on my water-type counter after that. (who gets one-shot by a banded bird sometimes)

    And you guys keep mentioning Rotom and Rhyperior and whatnot, but neither of them can keep it from switching. Rhyperior has a gaping 4x weakness and is a joke against non-STAB grass and water (when have I ever not one-shot this thing?), though Mega Aggron looks pretty decent once that special hole is plugged. So I guess we have to all carry it to counter the bird?

    I guess what really frustates me about broken bird is how it just takes from what was the game's charm. Before you could be successful with a pretty wide variety of mons and combinations, but giving one god-powers of priority over all others with limited checks and counters have locked you into having MULTIPLE of said checks and counters -- if you don't, it'll just switch in later and destroy you. Anything weak vs. Flying that was before bulky and tankish is worthless now (grass particularly, since no one uses pure bug and fight types have some minor counters) even in a Trick Room. What's worse is it uses such a juvenile "strategy" that it can't be considered skillful when it's used. There is no +1 priority Jolteon or something faster to counter it. It's the only one so you must either use it or have multiple of a limited pool of viable counters. (a lot of them have 4x weaknesses that Talonflame's buddy can probably one-shot, so they're not the greatest idea) This one mon has limited the scope of what mons you can use versus Gen V, and that's why I think the bird has ruined the game.

    I know I seem like a ranting idiot, but really, intensely think about it. You may have crafted a team that was Talonflame-proof from the get go, but now try crafting another one. Limit it to non-Uber mons, mons we all currently have access to, and mons you're not already using. Don't forget about defensive and offensive type coverage. Also remember that it can switch out and come back later. Plus your team needs to be competent against those few non-Talonflame teams that still exist. Feel that yet? You will. It's an aneurysm. :P

    And therein lies the problem with the bird. In generations past, you'd have no problem crafting tons of teams to counter [insert non-Uber here]. But now this bird has top-priority (no pun intended) and wide-reaching influence over how you craft your team. Greater influence than any other non-Uber mon to date.

    I have Protect on my more fragile mons, but it's just not that useful in doubles unless Protect-mon's buddy can guaranteed OHKO. Thunder Wave is rolling the dice, Poison is a joke against a suicide attacker, and other status fucks will only prompt a switch. At best you're only delaying the inevitable unless you can OHKO.

    And like the problem with Meowstic's Quick Guard that I mentioned, obvious threats like Mega Aggron, Rotom, and Rhyperior are switch bait, which means both sides have wasted a turn with Protect/Switch, but your opponent knows who isn't protected. You don't know who's going to be switched in.

    In case you've never had the Talonflame experience, do 10 battles on PSS first. I'm sure at least 7 include Talonflame and at least half of those will know how to keep the bird safe. To know how I feel, don't include the bird with your team. Good luck.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  13. Speedholes

    Speedholes

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2013
    Messages:
    57
    And you shouldn't have any troubles crafting teams to counter Talonflame either. People have been mentioning counters like Rotom-W, TTar and Rhyperior so I won't go over those. Talonflame gets checked by a ton of stuff in Doubles. Bulky attackers like Garchomp and Gyarados don't really care about Talonflame. Intimidate wrecks its offenses. Quick Guard blocks its priority Brave Bird (not sure if this implemented on PS! yet). It's weak to several spread moves, while the fact that it has none of its own means that it can be played around with good use of Protect. Not to mention that fact that it's still trying to hit things with a base 81 attack stat - even with 120 BP STABs, most things won't mind a neutral hit. It's harder to make a good team that doesn't at least carry multiple checks to Talonflame.

    Alot of what makes fighting this thing potentially stressful is not just the priority BB, but also its support options. I never know if they are predicting my switch and getting ready to burn my TTar with WoW, or Taunt my set-up mon, or screw me with a priority Tailwind before going down.
  14. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,890
    Ok, this argument is flawed imo. Talonflame is frail and doesn't hit /that/ hard, so its main draw is simply that it has a powerful priority attack. Don't get me wrong, this makes it a good Pokemon, but it's not broken. It is still frail and has many common weaknesses, and it only uses Single target attacks, so if you predict what it will try and hit with Protect, you likely won't have problems w/ KOing it with your other Pokemon. Further aiding this is the fact that both of Talonflame's STABs are recoil moves, so combining that with Life Orb means that Talonflame will be killing itself, making it easier to wear down. There are other mons in the tier such as Tyranitar and Gyarados that can handle it, as well as some Megas like Mega Ampharos and Mega Manectric, so it's not as though there are no answers to it. You don't even need to pack one of these to check Talonflame necessarily. You could use Stealth Rock to effectively force it to stay in once its come in, which is pretty great for keeping it in check. Not even sure where your point about past generations is coming from, as there were many Pokemon that you weren't always able to outright counter last gen. For the most part you would check them through teambuilding and good playing, and Talonflame is just another mon you have to do this for.

    Also not too important I guess but Jolteon does check Talonflame, outspeeds it so it will use Thunderbolt before it can Flare Blitz and Jolteon will have no trouble taking a Brave Bird due to the Flying resist.

    edit: I agree w/ Speedholes about its support moves being a challenge, I've had times where I've ben waiting o KOw/ TTar and then been burned by WoW or times i was waiting to set up Trick Room and then got hit by a Taunt. That's just somethin you gotta scout for and try to play around, I still wouldn't say it broken, but yeah those support moves are p. great.
  15. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,717
  16. Mizuhime

    Mizuhime the echoes of silence
    is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Doubles Queen

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    1,317
    Talonflame is beaten by basic team building and any player who knows what they're doing. Yes it does have Priority flying-type moves, does it hit hard nopeeeeeee. It's a Pokemon you should be prepared for when building. Even I, the queen of gimmicks, hasn't had a problem with it, my suggestion is to look over your team, or even pm me to look it over for you, it's by no mean broken, in fact, I would go as far as saying it sucks.

    Edit: by no means am I saying you don't know what you're doing it, i'm saying it's a new Pokemon and a lot of people are still new to this meta, and don't know what to use yet
  17. sarysa

    sarysa

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    From actual experience (albeit with PSS limitations) Choice Band is the most devastating tool for this thing. Do your calculations with max atk (remember, speed is less important) plus Choice Band, because this is what the worst Talonflames are using.

    Talonflame is bulkier than people give credit. If it can take an 80+maxed out everything non-STAB Rock Slide after dealing a Brave Bird, well you're just fucked if you don't have a very hard-hitting STAB option. If it were more like a Dugtrio defense-wise, then it would be more in check. But in actuality it has middle of the road defenses, and there's really nothing stopping a Brave Bird spammer from adding to these.

    Not frail. See above.

    I -do- save my apparently worthless counter. I'll get a more useful one sooner or later (bye bye Kangaskhan, I must get a Mega Aggron apparently) but I see a skilled player completely mindfucking me with this one. There's a good chance I'll need to switch on the same turn TF does, but if I do and they don't, switch-in could be destroyed. But if I stay around my counter may get excessively weakened by its buddy. The motions on this one hurt my brain.

    A testament to the overwhelming power of this no-setup-required sweeper, your counter dies, you may as well forfeit.

    My team has been pretty balanced on the PSS. Most of my losses have been to late-game blunders or the bird. Unfortunately with counters like Quick Guard and Fake Out being too obvious to a mildly seasoned opponent, I'm going to have to just play ball and add the hard counters of Rotom (probably microwave), and Mega Aggron. Is it going to weaken me versus some other teams? Absofrigginlutely. But the bird is so popular it's priority 1 now.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  18. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    4,081
    more like your counter dies, you bring in two pokemon that can each ohko or cripple talonflame (not hard, you should have six of them) and it can only hit one

    the team i've been running in non-bank dubs recently has been Talonflame/Trevenant/Excadrill/Greninja/Gardevoir/Klefki, which is basically six pokemon OHKOed by Talonflame, and it was STILL only a mid-tier threat. If you're having as much trouble with bird as you claim to be, you should probably look at your team synergy a little harder.
  19. Punchshroom

    Punchshroom para is worse than sleep
    is a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    2,717
    So you have troubles with Pokemon with insane power, can take a hit (doubtful what with the recoil and weakness to spread moves not named EQ), can act before you, and don't care much for status. Mega-Absol and TR Reuniclus anyone? Or something like Lum Berry Quiver Dance Volcarona partnered with Hitmontop (scary combo really)?

    The thing about Talonflame is, it has the tendency to threaten any one Pokemon on your team, but that's just it. It's one Pokemon at a time. It may take a KO on your Pokemon, but it can then get KOed right back. I don't get why Talonflame is such a big deal to you when a majority of other sweepers can fulfill the same criteria and be much more dangerous due to access to either spread moves, support moves, setup moves, or simply have more bulk to take hits better (You've probably been fighting Max HP Talonflames, but with Brave Birds they can weaken themselves into KO range).
  20. sarysa

    sarysa

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    What separates Talonflame from those is it can partner with just about anything and be just as devastating. Obviously a good starting partner is a Hitmontop or Meowstic (since it naturally outspeeds the Hitmontop) but strategies with Talonflame are more base from then on. It shifts to "anything that covers the counters I saw in the preview" which is a short list and easily included in the team. (Why are people glossing over this fact? I'll admit I don't know fully what entails a Smogon doubles match, I'm more focused on general-purpose balance concerns)

    Also, I've won against that Hitmontop/Volcarona team in Gen VI with subterfuge. (no one ever suspects the Inner Focus Kadabra. in fact he's indispensible when you see Hitmontop in the preview.)

    With a smartly made Talonflame's survivability (don't gloss over this), one at a time is all that's necessary. Without multiple hard counters this has become like Gen V's ice addiction only now, your mons need to have some E/R/S move each.

    Am I the only one here who thinks Talonflame alone has an overly huge influence on team building?
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  21. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon is a more intuitive player
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    4,081
  22. BlankZero

    BlankZero

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2012
    Messages:
    1,839
    Scarf Rotom-W's Volt Switch kills it. Next argument?
  23. sarysa

    sarysa

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Predicted this before refresh.

    May time validate my concerns. :P In any case it booted two of my members.

    Despite this being me versus the world, this discussion actually cleared my head somewhat and gave me some ideas, so thanks. I'll never stop crying nerf/ban but it was beneficial regardless. ;)

    next-day edit: I guess my reaction speaks to the differences between Smogon Doubles and PSS Rating Doubles. Being limited to 4 mons in PSS (but not Smogon) makes Talonflame more of a threat/imbalance. Also, having to sideline mons you spend 4-8 hours each building sucks. :P
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2013
    BlankZero, cxinlee and Audiosurfer like this.
  24. Darkflagrance

    Darkflagrance

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2007
    Messages:
    793
    ^I'll agree with the above. PSS is very strict and you cannot make mistakes, but on Smogon with my six mons grinding through the enemy team, I can say where there's a Talonflame there's a way.

    Also, testing Quick Guard is going nicely. Right now priority users are going totally unchecked so no one expects, and Quick Guard screws over megakang, scizor, aegis, prankster(?), etc while my CharY heat waves the immobilized enemy team to death. I just wish I could use it on consecutive turns on Showdown like I can on wifi. :\
  25. KingWein

    KingWein

    Joined:
    May 25, 2011
    Messages:
    20
    I had a WiFi opponent use a no item Acrobatics Talonflame. I was soundly defeated.
    BlankZero likes this.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)