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Talonflame

Discussion in 'Doubles' started by Joim, Oct 29, 2013.

  1. ofrocks

    ofrocks

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    i've been testing some builds of talonflame... Acrobatics sounded viable for a not so strong still effective stab attack (and since his movepool isn't large on variety) acrobatics can have it spot. When going for a speedy talonflame and abusing on flame body ability (which isn't being the most used here as i see) i can use flame charge for a speed boost ... Roost is a must have since it gives talonflame that little bit more life it needs and its great if you can predict a switch or a not super effective dmg move. His biggest counters being pokemon that you can easily cover, talonflame is getting his place on my team.
    From the builds i tried the one i'm using the most is :
    Flame Body Talonflame Life orb
    252 spe / 252 atk / 4 hp
    flame charge / roost / brave bird * / will o wisp **

    * i've made some tests with acrobatics instead of brave bird. It is not as effective as the first option but makes talonflame resist a bit more. Other viable options were flare blitz and tailwind. Flare blitz being prefered because it's 10% burn chance which combined with flame body ability gives us a 40% burn chance on attack.

    ** will o wisp is a move to break phys. attackers. I find it pretty usefull in this moveset considering i'm going for burn attempts and crippling opponents, although i don't usually run it together with flare blitz because it takes all the flying possibilities away.

    This talonflame build basically works as a fast burner in double battles with somewhat a flying move coverage. Since hitting him physically still adds a 30% burn possibility 1/3 of the times (what i think is pretty much since my devotion to RNG gods has been confirmed) even if he dies he has a good possibility of crippling the attacker. I've been running this talonflame as a slightly more bulky (because of roost) flying version of drought ninetales. Ofc i lose the boost from sunlight and that makes talonflame a much weaker user of this set but still it can work around and has proved to work when side by side with a earthquake abuser or a good wall)
  2. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
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    why would you ever use flame body over gale wings

    besides the fact that flame body makes eggs hatch faster ingame
    cxinlee, youngjake93 and BlankZero like this.
  3. ofrocks

    ofrocks

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    the reason i'm using it is that in double battles i'm working with a more supportive team and letting my teammate use a more offensive set. so talonflame w/ flame body and speed evs is working great as a will o wisper/burner with some coverage. Flame body gives me 30% chance of burn on any attack i try (or phy atk i get), mostly i've been able to hit first and with flame charge boost i get to outspeed everything that is not setting speed up in 2 or 3 attacks. In addition to these reasons, my talon set basically has only one flying move (which is roost) so i wouldn't be using gale wings at it's best. Roost won't need the ability priorities if i can perform 2~3 flame charges before roosting and the other attacks are fire type.
  4. Deoxymoron

    Deoxymoron

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    The only reason Talonflame isn't horribly outclassed is because of Gale Wings. Prankster Tailwind, Roost and Brave Bird make it great, but without those it's just really subpar. Flame Charge is ridiculous- its speed is the only stat that doesn't need help, there's no reason to sacrifice good attacking prowess to get more of it, especially when it can get +1 PRIORITY BRAVE BIRD. If you really want a good WoW user in doubles, try Rotom-W or Rotom-H. it's got good bulk, good SpA and good momentum thanks to Volt Switch. And Flame Body doesn't do crap if Talonflame dies to basically any super-effective hit, including spread moves like Rock Slide, Discharge and Surf.

    Basically, run Gale Wings or don't bother running Talonflame.
    youngjake93 and ofrocks like this.
  5. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Choice Band Adamant or go home. It is by far the best set overall, and it's only outclassed by LO when facing PerishTrap teams.
    Robert Alfons and youngjake93 like this.
  6. Monte Cristo

    Monte Cristo Shots fired

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    Blank pls, have you heard of this thing called "prankstertailwindlastminutefuckyou:]"?
    mattj likes this.
  7. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Why run Tailwind when you can run Trick Room? And I prefer a last minute fuck you with Priority Banded BB.
    Pen Ink likes this.
  8. Laga

    Laga We will never hear about the truly perfect crime.
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    These are the most relevant (some Pokebank) mons i could think of where calcs turn from 2HKOs to OHKOs / 3HKOs to 2HKOs when using Adamant Choice Band over Jolly Life Orb.

    OHKOs
    Charizard(Mega-Y)
    Latios
    Gengar-Mega
    Greninja

    2HKOs
    Landorus-T (after Intimidate)
    Thundurus(-T)
    Togekiss (with relevant investment in def - 252 / 100 or something)
    Gyarados (after Intimidate)

    I'm gonna have to agree with Blank. CB Adamant is the most threatening set, even though it hates Protect so much.
    BlankZero likes this.
  9. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The Lord's Favorite
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    I like how you can actually lead with Talonflame in combination with Hitmontop and wreck the faces of sooo many ladder kiddies. CB Adamant BB is not something that KOs Cresselia or anything (far from it), but considering how frail many Pokemon are, you can easily use this combo to take out 2 or 3 Pokemon on the opposing team when played correctly before Talonflame dies (there are sooo many people on the ladder who mindlessly click Rock Slide and then get cockblocked by Hitmontop's Wide Guard). If I think I can afford, I just lead with these two, it's an awesome combo.

    That being said, I do realize that great players who know how to abuse Protect can outplay this combo, which is why I only lead with them when I'm sure that it's gonna nab me at least 1.5 kill before burd goes down.

    And yeah, Brave Bird is all it needs when it runs CB. Flare Blitz is pretty nifty when you're using Sun (like me) as it hits really really really hard, and U-Turn can be a fun move to use when you lead with it against a combo that doesn't care about Brave Bird, but that priority BB just gets so much done against offensive threats. I tend to use the 4th moveslot for Tailwind, really, just in case I think that'd be more beneficial when up against something that doesn't mind burd.

    tl;dr burd is cool.
    BlankZero and Pocket like this.
  10. A Critical Hit

    A Critical Hit

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    Who runs Flame Body outside of breeding and making a mistake on the Showdown Team builder? Gale Wings is by far the superior ability as it gives you +1 priority on useful flying moves like Tailwind, Brave Bird, Acrobatics, and Roost. Talonflame is better off burning physical attackers with Wisp rather than taking hits and hoping to burn something Flame Body.

    I am wondering if it is worth putting HP EVs from Spd would help him be more bulkier since Talonflame is already naturally fast and has Gale Wings.
  11. Laga

    Laga We will never hear about the truly perfect crime.
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    Honestly guys, can we stop saying Gale Wings helps use Roost? Roost is terrible on burd, no discussion is even needed for that.

    Gale Wings is only really good because of priority Brave Bird (and maybe Tailwind). If I had the choice of using Roost or Tailwind, Tailwind would almost always be more beneficial, because every single poke does like 60% damage to it...
    Pwnemon and BlankZero like this.
  12. BLOOD TOTEM

    BLOOD TOTEM Heaven's Lost Property
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    In all honesty I'd run Tailwind on Banded Burd anyway, it's coverage options are hardly revolutionary.
    BB / U-turn / Blitz / Tailwind seems like the strongest set to me. If Talonflame is coming in on something it can't hit late game I'd rather have Tailwind available to support my teammates for that final push, it's not like Steel Wing is gonna be helping much.
  13. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Talonflame @ Choice Band
    Trait: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP (or enough speed to outrun base 100's outside priority)
    Adamant Nature
    -Brave Bird
    -U-Turn
    -Flare Blitz
    -Sleep Talk / Tailwind

    252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 360-426 (112.5 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Klefki: 283-338 (88.4 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

    That's a super important Calc right there folks.

  14. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon judges silently
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    I'd like to meet the klefki player that doesn't set reflect or switch against bird. So i can get some more ladder points, of course

    Edit: also return isnt a bad choice for banded bird to hit rotom a bit harder than fblitz for no recoil
    BlankZero likes this.
  15. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    Return us good, but I kinda like Steel Wing more for those pesky Rock types that aren't TTar (weak to Uturn).

    I really feel Talonflame is one of the best mons to come out of Gen6 so far, at least in Doubles. It can honestly be slapped on almost any team and fit as offensive Glue, kind of how Scizor could in Gen5, but with better STAB priority, and better support at the cost of bulk and typing, but with an escape mechanism.

    One set I'd like to theorymon to you all is the following

    Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Atk / enough speed to hit 334 / rest HP
    Jolly Nature
    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -Protect
    -Tailwind

    Here's your Tailwind setter folks. With a Jolly nature behind its 126 base speed, it only needs a few Speed EVs to hit 334, which outspeeds Jolly Garchomp by a single point. While this isn't especially optimal, given MegaChomp is slower, it goes to show that Talonflame has a lot of play with its Speed options. You could theoretically just run enough speed to catch X Pokemon with Flare Blitz and dump the rest in HP to give yourself some bulk. By giving it a Jolly Nature over Adamant, you're actually decreasing how many Speed EVs you need to hit your targets, and increasing how much added bulk you get.

    Another thought here is for running Adamant should the need arise that you can just use Talonflame's uninvested speed and just go for straight bulk/power with Priority and use Tailwind to outspeed everything with ease.

    Thoughts about this type of Talonflame? Bulky Tailwind is not an easy niche to fill in this meta, but Talonflame can actually fill it with quickness unmatched by any other Tailwind setter + Priority ok the move itself. It even outspeeds Whimsicott, the former holder of this title. You could even run enough speed to outrun 116 base for it to dodge Taunt, or just 111's to dodge Thundy-I (TWave still sucks though).

    I'll stop here.
  16. Sacaen

    Sacaen

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    You should only run 334 speed if you are carrying will-o-wisp to burn Jolly Garchomp, you're not going to be flare blitzing a Garchomp so you don't need to hit his number without WoW.

    Thunderus-Therian requires 332 speed since you would be flare blitzing it.

    Thunderus-I requires 354 speed, which is unfortunately just outside of talonflame's reach with an adamant nature. It is the only reason you should ever really use a jolly nature, if outspeeding it is so important. Talonflame really wants all the power it can get.

    Base 108s aren't all that important to go for as they're all fighting types.


    Blitz/BB/Roost/WoW with leftovers is actually very good and has great sustainability. It's no skarmory, but it can help it stay alive longer. Roosting on predicted switches can keep it alive for a very long time. WoW also cripples a huge handful of talonflames checks such as tyranitar, landorus-t, and gliscor (pre toxic orb). Even things like rotom and hippowdon don't like the passive damage. The priority status on roost isn't as important as say, sableye's priority recover, but to say roost is terrible is a flat out bs. Jolly garchomp's outrage can only manage 41-48% damage to 72 hp ev talonflame after it has been burned, which means talonflame can stall it out, and obviously alot of physical attackers weaker than garchomp can have trouble breaking through talonflames fast burns and roosts.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  17. Darkmalice

    Darkmalice Like a facepalm, but better
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    I actually prefer Aerial Ace for the last moveslot on the Choice Band set. The main reason CB works is because you're spamming Brave Bird for powerful priority (which as already said by many people is the best set, as that what's Talonflame is born to do). Aerial Ace works because it still gets the priority but no recoil. Useful for finishing off a Pokemon when you're on low enough HP with which you would faint with Brave Bird recoil. Mind you, I rarely use it, but I still find it more useful than Steel Wing and Return, which I never find myself using at all. Who would you use Steel Wing against? I rather use my STABs against Ice- and Fairy-types, and the only common Rock-type, Ttar, I rather U-turn out. And to be fair, I'd U-turn out against pretty much any Rock-type except for Aerodactyl, who outspeeds you so I rather use Brave Bird or even Aerial Ace over Steel Wing. Carbink would the only exception, which I have never seen in Doubles. Return is only useful against Electric-types with resistance to Fire-types like Rotom and M-Ampharos (I rather U-turn out once again, and Return only does a little more damage than Brave Bird) or in scenarios when you don't want recoil, which makes it like a stronger Aerial Ace without the priority.

    Aerial Ace also works better if you decide to shift Speed EVs into HP for added bulk, as priority becomes even more useful.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
    Pocket likes this.
  18. Audiosurfer

    Audiosurfer have one on me
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    I haven't recalced any of these but I'd just like to point out that using Jolly on the Life Orb set makes these calcs a lot less useful considering that no one actualy uses Jolly Talonflame anyways. Adamant is used whether you're using a Choice Band or a Life Orb, so I question whether these are all from using CB > Life Orb as opposed to the fact hat you have an Adamant Nature as opposed to a Jolly one.
    BlankZero likes this.
  19. Laga

    Laga We will never hear about the truly perfect crime.
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    Charizard, Latios, and MegaGar are all not OHKOed by Adamant LO tho, not sure about the 2HKOs, but i think greninja still is OHKOd by Adamant LO.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Charizard: 251-296 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 246-290 (81.7 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gengar: 246-290 (94.2 - 111.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (not safe)
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  20. fireblade16

    fireblade16

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    My main use for talonflame is different then from most of you from what it looks like.

    Talonflame@ Life Orb
    Jolly (+Spe/ -SpA) / Adamant (+Atk/ -SpA)
    252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 4 HP

    Brave Bird
    Flare Blitz
    Quick Guard
    U-Turn/Roost/Tailwind/ Will-o-Wisp


    QUICK GUARD. HOW I LOVE THEEEE

    Talonflame is the fastest quick guarder in the game. Hands down. No longer am I plagued by the Thunderus lead, or any prankster user. I can block an enemy talonflame looking to BB one of my pokes out of the game before it kills the partner.
    The 4th move just depends on the team. U-Turn will always be my first go to. The bonus to it is it allows you to throw it back in to the party after the prankster lead is down to get your responce out (like togekiss with follow me if you know.Lati@s is making an appearance, or your weather inducer) leaving your wonderfull Talonflame to it's best position, the revenge/cleanup.
    I've also played with WoW and roost. A both great utilities to soften up what would normally wall, or to keep Talonflame good to go at late game. Tailwindn is meh for this set, however it is good mid game to ensure a easier victory.
    But quick guard is getting the most use so far.
  21. Laga

    Laga We will never hear about the truly perfect crime.
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    Quick Guard has +3 Priority dude. It doesn't matter how fast the mon is, but creative idea nonetheless :)

    I don't think Talonflame is that good of a Quick Guard user, since it is not really weak to priority itself, and therefore cannot lure the opponent into going for a priority move. This is a different case with something like Terrakion, who can bait a Scizor BP, Thundurus T-Wave, or Talonflame BB.
  22. fireblade16

    fireblade16

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    Talonflame doesn't have to be weak to priority. This Isn't singles lol. If you are running a lead that is prone to suffer taunt, or playing against statuses. Quick Guard is a great option against those common factors that yousee on showdown, and online when the bank opens. But just because talon isn't a target for priority does not make him a bad quickguard
    The factor of him being fast allows him to respond faster. After thunderous fails to taunt dusclops, you can U-Turn off of it faster than he can hit talon with thunder.
  23. BlankZero

    BlankZero

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    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 149-177 (39 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 274-324 (75.6 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 214-253 (57.2 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    There's the other calcs. Choice Band is seriously one of the best, if not the best item for Talonflame, and far better to use than LO unless you actually need Utility moves on it (Protect/QG/Tailwind/Roost).

    LOL @ Telling Laga this isn't singles.
    fireblade16 likes this.
  24. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast Deer Lord
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    I've found that LO Talonflame is pretty useful for an emergency Taunt, actually. It prevents other stuff from using Protect, stops certain TR 'mons, and cockblocks those dumbass defensive booster Clefable and Slurpuff sets...
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  25. BlankZero

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    Well now that the Metagame is pretty set as far as Non Bank goes, and we know YoloFlame has a great attacking presence, maybe we should explore its utility presence too? It's super fast with Priority Flying moves, but it's kinda frail without investment. What can it do besides hit things and die?

    Here's a set I've been toying with.

    Talonflame @ Sitrus Berry
    Trait: Gale Wings
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 132 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    -Brave Bird
    -Flare Blitz
    -Will-o-Wisp
    -Protect

    For this set, I aimed to outspeed Base 111's and below and burn them (Tornadus used to give me troubles), while still retaining power and gaining a bit of bulk. After the burn, Talonflame can live MegaKhan's +0 Double Edge with Sitrus Berry, as well as most Rock Slides , although ScarfTar can give it problems though if it goes +Spe.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013

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