1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

VGC Talonflame

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by gamer boy, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    [​IMG]
    ♪ Remember my name ♪

    Skeleton (open)
    Overview
    ########
    This generation's starter-bird is different to all the others in that it is Fire-/Flying-type rather than Normal-/Flying-type. It is also the only competitive one (barring Staraptor) due to its amazing ability: Gale Wings which gives prioroty to all Flying-type moves including non-damaging ones. This turns it into an offensive monster and a premier supporter in the VGCs, and something all teams must prepare for.

    [Pros]
    • Gale wings is absolutely amazing turning it into an offensive monster or an amazing supporter
    • Fire/Flying is good offensive typing only dealt with by rock-types and Rotom-Wash
    • Access to the best offensive prioroty in the game and amazing defensive prioroty
    [Cons]
    • Tiny movepool
    • Mediocre stats
    • 4x rock weakness, as well as weakness to common Water- and Electric-type attacks


    Offensive Support
    ########
    name: Standard
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Tailwind / Quick Guard
    move 4: Protect / Quick Guard
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Life Orb / Sky Plate
    evs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
    nature: Adamant Nature

    Moves
    ========
    • Brave Bird is the main attack, given prioroty by Gale Wings making it a scary thing to face if you don't resist it
    • Flare Blitz has near-perfect coverage with Brave Bird only resisted by Rock-types and Rotom-Wash as well as providing a solid secondary STAB
    • Tailwind is an amazing support option doubling your teams speed for the next few turns which can be the difference between dealing damage and fainting immediately when not in trick room
    • Quick Guard protects your side of the feild from prioroty moves, but a misprediction could be costly if you're not careful as it is a precious turn wasted.
    • Protect lets you scout at the cost of a protecting your teammate from possible Fake Outs among other moves.

    Set Details
    ========
    • The EVs maximize Talonflame's power while enable Talonflame to outpace max speed, jolly Mega Kangaskhan to prevent it using Sucker Punch on you when you use Brave Bird, and to always quick guard against its Fake Outs. The remaining EVs are placed into bulk to let you take a neutral hit or two as more speed is not required on a supportive set due to Gale Wings.
    • Life Orb boosts the power of all of Talonflames attacks further, enabling Talonflame to gain a guaranteed 2HKO on 244 HP, bold Coba Berry Ludicolo, and so does the Sky Plate: giving Talonflame a little more survivability. However it significantly weakens Talonflame's Flare Blitz, and it's Brave Bird isn't quite as powerful.
    • You could run max speed to outpace every Fake Out-user (barring max-speed-positive-nature Raichu who you speed-tie with and max-speed-positive-nature Weavile who beats Talonflame outright) and Quick Guard against them. However, the given EVs enable Talonflame to block Kangaskhan's Fake Out on the turn it mega-evolves, which is the most common user of the move.
    • There is no reason to run any nature aside from Adamant on Talonflame as it doesn't need a Jolly Nature due to Gale Wings and there is no point boosting Talonflame's defenses any further due to Talonflame's relative frailty.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • This set likes to be around early-game and support it's team with Tailwind and Quick Guard, but still be there later in the match to deal a finishing blow before it goes down with its powerful prioroty.

    Team Options
    ========
    • Scizor deals with the Rock-types that are the bane of Talonflame's existance
    • Amoongus deals with Rotom-Wash by walling it and dealing heavy damage with a STAB Giga Drain, while helping supporting it's team with Spore and Rage Powder and being a decent check/counter to Trick Room - something that Tailwind teams dispise
    • Rotom Wash and Tyranitar deal with opposing Talonflame well with STAB attacks while walling it to no end.
    • Charizard can mega evolve and summon the sun to make Talonflame's Flare Blitz even more terrifying, as well as canceling opposing Tyranitar's Sandstorm.
    • Rotom-Heat deals with rare Aerodactyl and opposing Talonflame, although it must be wary of Rock Slides from the former.
    • Garchomp and Talonflame make a terrifying offensive core with Garchomp having perfect neutral coverage in this metagame with it's dual STABs and access to Rock Slide to get rediculous amounts of damage on Mega Charizard Y and opposing Talonflame that lack Charti Berry, while Talonflame has the best prioroty in the game in the form of Brave Bird, as well as hitting Scizor, Grass-types, Fighting-types, and the uncommon Vivillon harder with its STAB moves.

    Choice Band
    ########
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: U-Turn
    move 4: Tailwind / Me First / Aerial Ace
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Choice Band
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    nature: Adamant Nature

    Moves
    ========
    • Brave Bird gets prioroty with Talonflame's ability and is completely monsterous with the Choice Band boost.
    • Flare Blitz is the coverage move of choice, powering through the Steel-types that resist Brave Bird
    • U-Turn deals with Tyranitar, and switches Talonflame out which is helpful as you don't tend to want to be locked into Bug-type move, as well as luring a Rock Slide into your Rock-type resistance, or just something that you know can take it.
    • The last moveslot is very variable as Talonflame doesn't really have anything else it wants to be locked into. This means that there are drawbacks to all of the moves listed.
    • Me First will almost always steal the opponent's move and launch it back at them with 1.5x the power. However, if the opponent uses a non-damaging move, Me First will fail, which is something to bare in mind when using the move.
    • Arial Ace provides a recoil-free STAB prioroty move for dealing with weakened opponents. However it is a weak move and you generally don't want to be locked into it so make sure you know the opponent wont switch before you use it
    Set Details
    ========
    • The EVs are there deliberately to outpace opposing Talonflame while maximising Talonflame's attack power.
    • Adamant boosts your power to it's highest potential. Furthermore, there is no reason to run Jolly as the main move you will be using is Brave Bird anyway which has its prioroty boosted by Gale Wings.
    • Choice Band is obligatory on a Choice Band set, as well as turning Talonflame into a prioroty abusing nuke that you must be very wary of.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    • I have 3 words for you: Brave Bird Everything!.
    • However, you must know when you should maybe not lock yourself into Brave Bird, as some teams are very resistant to the move, and you should instead U-Turn out or support your team with your fourth slot. Or just Flare Blitz Everything, although the lack of prioroty could be a deterrent from this strategy, but you're still a nuke when you use it.

    Team Options
    ========
    • Rotom-Wash, Heat and Mow formes can deal with opposing Talonflame (Wash and Heat) or Rotom-Wash and Tyranitar (Mow)
    • Fake Out is a big help as it can stall pokemon who are going to Rock Slide and give Talonflame the time to either a: 2HKO them or b: U-Turn out.
    • Quick Guard protects you from other Talonflame, and Wide Guard helps against Rock Slides.
    • Scizor and Talonflame make an amazing physical core and combination as Talonflame deals with the Steel-types that wall Scizor while Scizor takes down the Rock-types that wall Talonflame. However, you must be aware of Rotom-Wash and Heat who wall this combo and bring...
    • Amoongus and Tyranitar and/or Garchomp. The former deals with Rotom-Wash with it's STAB Giga Drain while the latter two deal with Rotom-Heat using Rock Slide.
    • Haxorus can deal with Rotom formes aside from the uncommon Mow forme and the nigh-unseen Fan forme using by breaking the mold and using Earthquake.

    Other Options
    ########
    • Talonflame has a near-naked offensive movepool, but it does have decent supporting movepool as well as a few other offensive options options.
    • By far the most viable of these is the range of options that could go onto the standard set including Will-O-Wisp, Taunt and Roost as they all have very valuable purposes.
    • Overheat and a mild nature could be run on the standard set in the place of Flare Blitz utilising an EV spread of 172 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 Sp catching many players off guard. However, this forces the Life Orb onto Talonflame which many players find unattractive due to the high levels of recoil on Brave Bird. Furthermore, if a pokemon has prepared to take Mega Charizard Y's Heat Wave, it will often do less damage than Flare Blitz.
    • On the subject of Overheat, Talonflame has a range of special moves it can run which could warrent a fully special set, but the majority of them are laughably weak.
    • Talonflame could use Acrobatics in case its item has been used up or knocked off - most notably on the standard set. However, this is a little unreliable to be recommended, and without the boost it is ironically weaker than Aerial Ace.
    • Charti Berry with an EV spread of 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe can be used on the standard set, enabling Talonflame to survive all rock slides including max attack adamant Mega Tyranitar's Rock Slide (252+ Atk Mega Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 138-164 (66.3 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage) and outpace Mega Kangaskhan on the turn it mega evolves and block its Fake Out with Quick Guard. However, Talonflame's reliance on recoil moves mean that it is not recommended. Wacan Berry can be used in the same vain as Charti Berry, but is once again not recommended.
    • Natural Gift could be used on the All Out Offense with Liechi Berry, Salac Berry or Charti Berry to give Talonflame a base 100 Grass-type move (Liechi Berry), base 100 Fighting-type move (Salac Berry) or a base 80 Rock-type move (Charti Berry - Damn you for not existing in Pokemon X and Pokemon Y Micle Berry!). The former can be useful if Talonflame doesn't use Natural Gift, the latter can help Talonflame take a Rock-type move before Natural Gift is used, and the Salac speeds up Talonflame's other moves when you don't use Natural Gift. However, Natural Gift can only be used once, and the former barely 2HKOs Rotom-Wash, and doesn't ever if it is holding Sitrus Berry, the latter's only use is to OHKO Talonflame that lack Charti Berry and Mega Charizard Y which, while they are both very big threats, are both dealt with reasonably well with Brave Bird anyway, and the Salac Berry only really hits Tyranitar. Furthermore, you have teammates to deal with said pokemon for Talonflame anyway.
    • Finally, Talonflame has access to Swords Dance and Bulk Up which could go on the standard set, but setting up is risky in doubles and, as such, isn't recommended.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    *Electric-types*
    • Rotom Wash and Rotom Heat is as close as you can get to a counter to Talonflame as they resist both of it's dual STABs and takes little from it's coverage options, while still being able to retaliate with STAB, super effective Thunderbolt.
    • Mega Manectric can Intimidate Talonflame, lowering its already middling attack stat, as well as OHKO it with STAB Volt Switch or Thunderbolt. It must be wary of Flare Blitz or predicted U-Turn on the turn it mega evolves.
    • Mega Ampharos can brush off everything Talonflame has to throw at it, although its Mold Breaker doesn't negate that brilliant Gale Wings.
    *Rock-types*
    • Tyranitar is also a good counter as it resists Talonflame's dual STABs and can threaten with a STAB, 4x super effective Rock Slide in return, however it must be wary of a possible U-Turn.
    • Rhydon and Rhyperior completely wall everything Talonflame has to hit them with and threaten back with Rock Slide. They are, however, suseptible to being worn down and have a series of crippling 4x weaknesses to Talonflame's common teammate, Rotom-Wash.
    • Aerodactyl gives Talonflame a run for its money in the roll of Tailwind-er and can KO Talonflame back with Rock Slide. However, you must play your cards well or face a Me First-boosted Rock Slide against Choice Band varients
    *Water-types*
    • Slowbro and Rotom-Wash can tank Talonflame's hits and threaten with a STAB, super effective Scald or Surf, although the former must be cautious of U-Turn.
    • Azumarill can take one Brave Bird and OHKO back with Waterfall or 2HKO with Aqua Jet, but it doesn't enjoy taking the hit and is weak to Talonflame's usual friend Rotom.
    • Gyarados can Intimidate Talonflame and OHKO with Waterfall, but, like Azumarill, it is weak to Talonflame's common teammate Rotom.
    *The Rest*
    • Quick Guard messes with Gale Wings, which is an issue for Talonflame and the only drawback of its otherwise amazing ability when you end up facing it.
    • Intimidating pokemon (pun intended) can weaken Talonflame's Brave Birds, Flare Blitzes and U-Turns.
    • Pokemon that usually carry Rock Slide for coverage and can take a Brave Bird or two, such as Garchomp and Salamence, can deal with Talonflame with relative ease, but must be wary of the Charti Berry.


    Overview
    ########

    On paper, Talonflame looks like yet another mediocre Pokemon, similar the rest of its friends found in the early routes. However, Talonflame has a saving grace in the form of Gale Wings, which turns it into a premier Pokemon with its ability to destroy opposing Pokemon with powerful priority Brave Birds and benefit the team with its plethora of support options. However, the skies aren't completely clear for Talonflame, as it is weak to the common Water-, Electric-, and Rock-type moves that plague the metagame, has rather mediocre stats to back up its amazing ability, and has a movepool that is nothing to write home about, therefore limiting its options. However, don't let these shortcomings put you off from using Talonflame, as it is by far one of the most potent attackers and effective supporters in the metagame.


    Offensive Support
    ########
    name: Offensive Support
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: Tailwind / Quick Guard
    move 4: Protect / Quick Guard
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Life Orb / Sky Plate
    evs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========

    Gale Wings is incredibly useful, as it grants Talonflame priority Tailwind and the most powerful priority move in the game in the form of Brave Bird. Brave Bird is Talonflame's main attack due to the priority it gains from Gale Wings, ripping through Pokemon such as Amoonguss. Talonflame's secondary STAB move, Flare Blitz, complements Brave Bird fairly well; the two moves form a potent combination resisted only by the Rock-type and a few other dual typings. Tailwind is a priority move that boosts the Speed of the entire team for a few turns. Protect is a staple in Doubles for its ability to scout the opponent's moves and protect the user from damage, especially important considering the ability to double target. Quick Guard can be used in the place of Tailwind or Protect as the utility it provides is incredibly handy on Talonflame. Quick Guard blocks Fake Out from the likes of Mega Kangaskhan, can give your teammate a free turn to move, and has been buffed in that it no longer fails when used in succession.

    Set Details
    ========

    The given EVs enable Talonflame to hit with as much power as possible as well as outpace max Speed Mega Kangaskhan. As a result, Talonflame can block Mega Kangaskhan's Fake Out with Quick Guard and utilize Brave Bird to nullify Sucker Punch. Talonflame can run max Speed to outpace every Fake Out user in the metagame excluding max Speed Raichu, which Speed ties with it, and max Speed Weavile, which outpaces it anyway. This also enables Talonflame to outpace most opposing Talonflame, which can be a valuable asset. However, maximum Speed investment is unadvised as Raichu and Weavile are too uncommon, and Talonflame can mess with opposing Talonflame with Quick Guard. The item of choice depends on what you want Talonflame to do: it can hold a Sky Plate for a little more survivability at the cost of power, or a Life Orb for the extra power, enabling a guaranteed 2HKO on 244 HP Bold Coba Berry Ludicolo with Brave Bird at the cost of survivability. An Adamant nature is run as there is no reason to run a Jolly nature, as Talonflame will use Brave Bird, Tailwind, Quick Guard and Protect most of the time.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Bring Talonflame in early-game to support the team with Tailwind and Quick Guard. Make your move accordingly based around the lead match-up, using Quick Guard turn one when against a lead Kangaskhan, setting up Tailwind when you feel it is needed, such as when facing a particularly fast team, and using Brave Bird or Flare Blitz to deal with opposing threats such as Ludicolo and Scizor. As you can imagine, mirror match-ups consist of many mind games, so make sure to play conservatively in these situations, predicting your opponent's move and using your 45 seconds well. Misprediction might get Talonflame KOed, for example, by Garchomp's Rock Slide when it uses Brave Bird and the opponent uses Quick Guard.

    Team Options
    ========

    Steel-types such as Scizor and Aegislash have good synergy with Talonflame and can deal with the Rock-types that resist Talonflame's attacks. Rotom-W and Rotom-H can deal with opposing Talonflame as well as deal Mega Charizard Y, and the latter can take advantage of the sun that Mega Charizard Y summons. Rock-types such as Tyranitar and Aerodactyl can also deal with opposing Talonflame, and the former can also deal with Rotom-H. Amoonguss walls Rotom-W and threatens it with a STAB Giga Drain. Mega Charizard Y can summon sun, boosting the power of Talonflame's Flare Blitz and compensating its slight lack of power when it holds a Sky Plate. Talonflame and Garchomp create a terrifying offensive core with excellent offensive synergy; Talonflame covers Fairy-types and Ferrothorn while Garchomp covers Talonflame and Rotom-H.


    Choice Band
    ########
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Brave Bird
    move 2: Flare Blitz
    move 3: U-Turn
    move 4: Tailwind / Me First / Aerial Ace
    ability: Gale Wings
    item: Choice Band
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    nature: Adamant

    Moves
    ========

    Brave Bird is the move that Talonflame will generally be using most of the time due to its STAB boost and Gale Wings. Flare Blitz is mainly a backup move for when locking Talonflame into Brave Bird isn't optimal, and deals with Pokemon such as Scizor and Aegislash better than Brave Bird does. U-turn is useful on this set as it allows Talonflame to escape from a bad situation, and is Talonflame's best move for Tyranitar. The last moveslot is mainly filler, but there are a few options to consider. Tailwind serves the same purpose as on the standard set, and can help bluff an non-Choice set. However, Talonflame is basically forced to switch out on the following turn after using Tailwind, so it will soon be clear that Talonflame is Choice-locked. Before setting up Tailwind, Me First helps Talonflame against Pokemon such as Aerodactyl, stealing Rock Slide and OHKOing them. However, the move is a little situational. Aerial Ace can also be used in the fourth moveslot as a recoil-free way of dealing with weakened opponents, but is very weak and forces Talonflame to switch out after using it.

    Set Details
    ========

    The EVs are to outpace opposing Talonflame and maximize its firepower. An Adamant nature and Choice Band augment Talonflame's offensive capabilities, turning it into a nuke that can spam Brave Bird with little worry. A Jolly nature is worthless, as Talonflame is mostly going to spam Brave Bird.

    Usage Tips
    ========

    Brave Bird is most often the best move to use, though it should not be used recklessly. Write down the opposing team and refer to it whenever you are making decisions, as you will often find situations mid-game where Brave Bird is not the best move to use. Switch strategically to ensure that the Pokemon you are switching in takes as little damage as possible. An example includes luring a Rock Slide with Talonflame and switching into Garchomp to take the hit, allowing Talonflame to come in later and lock itself into the appropriate move. General decisions include using U-turn when Tyranitar is on the opponent's side of the field, using Flare Blitz when Aegislash or Scizor is a threat to your team, and using Talonflame's filler move when you deem it to be appropriate.

    Team Options
    ========

    Rotom-W and Rotom-H can deal with opposing Talonflame, and the latter can deal with Mega Charizard Y very well. Rotom-M, on the other hand, is a great Pokemon to deal with opposing Rotom-W and Tyranitar. Tyranitar can deal with Rotom-H, Talonflame, and Mega Charizard Y well, though it must be wary of Talonflame's U-turn and Mega Charizard Y's Solar Beam. Fake Out users such as Mega Kangaskhan can prevent Rock Slides and enable Talonflame to U-turn out safely and bring in a Pokemon with a better match-up against the opponent's Pokemon. Fake Out users can also give Talonflame a turn to set up with Tailwind or utilize another move. The combination of Scizor and Talonflame is effective, as Scizor can deal with the Rock-types that wall Talonflame and Talonflame can deal with Aegislash, which can cause problems for Scizor that lack Thief. However, Scizor is walled by Rotom-W and Rotom-H, and must be wary of the former's Will-O-Wisp and the latter's Overheat. Garchomp also makes an excellent partner, as it can defeat Rotom-H, though it must be wary of Will-O-Wisp. Amoonguss is capable of dealing with Rotom-W and Tyranitar as well as supporting Talonflame with Spore and Rage Powder. However, it must be wary of Crunch and Rock Slide from Tyranitar. Lastly, Mold Breaker Haxorus can 2HKO 252 HP / 44 Def Rotom-W and always OHKO Rotom-H with Earthquake.


    Other Options
    ########

    Though it doesn't have the best offensive movepool, Talonflame has a very good supportive movepool and a few other offensive options to consider. Talonflame has a wide range of support moves that can go on the standard set, the most notable of which are Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Roost. However, these are generally outclassed by the options that are currently in the set. Overheat can be used on the standard set with a Mild nature and an EV spread of 172 Atk / 252 SpA / 84 Spe however, such a set packs a weaker Brave Bird and forces Talonflame to run Life Orb, which may be unattractive due to the recoil it induces. On the subject of Overheat, Talonflame has a range of special moves that it can use, such as Hidden Power - most notably Flying - Fire Blast, Flamethrower, and Solar Beam. Acrobatics can be used over Aerial Ace on the Choice Band set in case Talonflame is on the receiving end of a Knock Off. However, Knock Off is too uncommon to recommend preparing for, and Aerial Ace is stronger when Talonflame holds an item.

    A Charti Berry or Wacan Berry can be used with an EV spread of 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe to guarantee that Talonflame can survive Brave Tyranitar's Rock Slide, even after Sandstorm damage, or Modest Rotom-H's Thunderbolt. Natural Gift can be used to give Talonflame a better way to deal with Rotom-W and Tyranitar in tandem with Liechi Berry and Salac Berry, respectively. While the former item could have utility if not used up by Natural Gift, the latter is mostly unnecessary, as the Speed boost is irrelevant to most moves bar Flare Blitz. Furthermore, Natural Gift can only be used once without access to Recycle or Harvest, two things that Talonflame lacks, so it isn't recommended. Lastly, Talonflame has access to Swords Dance and Bulk Up to boost its stats, but Talonflame isn't going to be around for long enough to utilize these moves well.


    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Electric-types**: Rotom-W and Rotom-H are Talonflame's worst enemies, as it cannot do much damage to either of them with its STAB moves. Mega Manectric can deal with Talonflame well due to Intimidate, though it must be wary of a sun-boosted Flare Blitz. Mega Ampharos can tank Talonflame's moves better than Mega Manectric can, but doesn't have access to Intimidate.

    **Rock-types**: Tyranitar resists both of Talonflame's STAB attacks, although it must be wary of Talonflame's U-turn, as it will 2HKO 92 HP / 124 Def Tyranitar 5.1% of the time. Furthermore, Tyranitar is vulnerable to double-targeting and could be KOed that turn. Rhydon and Rhyperior completely wall Talonflame, but they must be wary of one of Talonflame's usual teammates: Rotom-W. Aerodactyl gives Talonflame competition as a Tailwind user and can OHKO it with its STAB Rock Slide. However, like Rhyperior, Aerodactyl must be wary of Rotom-W.

    **Water-types**: Slowbro and Rotom-W can tank both of Talonflame's STAB attacks and retaliate with STAB Scald and Hydro Pump, respectively. However, the former must be wary of Talonflame's U-turn. Azumarill is capable of tanking Talonflame's Brave Bird and OHKOing back with STAB Waterfall or Aqua Jet, though the latter requires some prior damage. However, it must be wary of Rotom-W, which can OHKO with Thunderbolt. Gyarados is similar to Azumarill, though it trades Aqua Jet for Intimidate, making it an even better way to deal with Talonflame.

    **Quick Guard**: Quick Guard users such as Mienshao and opposing Talonflame play mind games with Talonflame, as they are capable of wasting its turn with Quick Guard and allowing a teammate to cripple or KO it.

    **Intimidate**: Pokemon with Intimidate, such as Scrafty and Salamence, can weaken Talonflame and force it to switch out.

    **Rock-type Moves**: Pokemon such as Garchomp and Salamence often carry Rock Slide for coverage. They can often take a hit and OHKO Talonflame in return.
    Last edited: May 3, 2014
  2. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    883
    This is just a quick glance and if I remember something else I will add it. Personally, I do not see a reason to have the second set. It is practically the same thing and the Standard set has really everything that Talonflame can do.
  3. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    the second set is capable of dealing with more threats than the first, however it supports the team less which is why it is lower down. if more people feel it is unneeded, i will take it down.
  4. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
  5. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,507
    Howdy gamer boy, these are my concerns so far. If you can edit your analysis to implement the changes I'm asking for, I'll give you your first QC check. Feel free to discuss any changes you disagree with.

    I don't see the point of using Charti berry to barely survive a rock slide when using any of your attacks will KO talonflame immediately after. I think Charti Berry's mention should be removed altogether. As for what speed to run with the Charti Berry gone, I'd recommend either 172 Speed so Mega Kangaskhan can never hit you with Sucker Punch when using Brave Bird or 84 so that you successfully block Kangaskhan's fake out on the turn in mega evolves with Quick Guard.

    On the subject of Quick Guard, I've found it really, really valuable when using Talonflame and I'd like to see it slashed on the 3rd slot as well, though I'd like protect to move up to the primary option in the final slot.

    Also your two sets look remarkably similar, I would condense them into one single set.

    I'm not completely sold on using Natural Gift with Talonflame and listing it outside of Other Options since forgoing your item for coverage and number of partners could provide seems a little underwhelming. Though I can see the surprise value, I'm not sure if it's worth the opportunity cost. I would also say that Roost deserves some mention as does Will-o-wisp for that final slot.

    For you teammate information, I'd remove that tr mention about Slowbro, Trevenant, etc, at Talonflame doesn't really care much about TR when it has priority Brave Bird. Also, I would mention Garchomp and Mamoswine as good partners, as they form great attacking cores and can break through a lot of what talonflame has trouble with, sans Rotom-W.

    I would like to see the addition of a Max Attack, Max Speed adamant Choice Band set since it's proven to be effective at winter regionals.

    Add Rotom-H to the list of counters alongside Rotom-W. Quick Guard users should also get a mention for how badly they mess with Brave Bird. Also mention Intimidate users, particularly Gyarados, can be troublesome with Talonflame even if he can deal with them 1v1 just because they can get the attack reduction and head out immediately.
  6. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    OK. I will implement the changes, as well as some that I have just seen on nuggetbridge and decided to add to the analysis (I can't belive I forgot Rotom-Heat!). These are the things I would like to keep discussing:
    • Natural Gift is Talonflame's best way of dealing with Rotom-Wash as they don't tend to run max HP/Def, bold nature in doubles due to the more player-controlled atmosphere of doubles Furthermore, as Talonflame won't be using Natural Gift every match, it will often be able to take advantage of the boost provided by the Liechi Berry to get that extra bit of damage on the opponent. However, I feel that Salac Berry should be moved to other options, so I will do that.
    • I've been running Charti Berry Talonflame and it is barely 2HKOd by normal Garchomp and Mega Garchomp outside of sand, and even in the sand it is still taking no more than around 90% damage.
    • The Trick Room users I mentioned have good synergy with Talonflame anyway, and the problem with Trick Room is that Talonflame is forced to use Brave Bird in it which is a big issue.
    I will start writing this up after breakfast, and I will post again when I finish the write-up.
  7. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,507
    Okay, great to hear. About some of the stuff you wanted to talk about more:
    • I still don't really like the sound of Leichi Berry outside of other options. Talonflame does have a nice support movepool and it seems like a crying shame to trade away an item that's more useful in most situations and a support move slot to do heavy damage once to Rotom-W. An Adamant max attack Talonflame is only doing 55%-65% with it on a Max HP Rotom-W and, while I agree Rotom-W is much less physically bulky than in singles, it still very commonly has at least Max HP if not a little more defense to guarentee living things like Mega Mawhile's Play Rough. Taking on Rotom-W is something I think Talonflame should leave to its partners; let Talonflame do its job to its best potential and a partner do theirs.
    • I ran some calcs with some of the more common Rock Slide Users (Tyranitar, Garchomp, Salamence) and I can see where it has use since you're only 2HKOed by weak rock slides, but I think it should be the final slash if it's receiving mention on the set. Charti Berry doesn't really help much at all versus Tyranitar and STAB Rock Slide users as they can usually do enough to the point where any attack you make will KO youself (and in Tyranitar's case, sand can still net an OHKO; 252+ Atk Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Charti Berry Talonflame: 140-168 (82.8 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage). Be sure to sell the item as a tool for surviving weaker Rock Slides with enough HP to fire off a few more attacks.
    • I don't really see what's such a big issue being forced to use Brave Bird, as that's a big focus of what you'll be doing most of the time. Sure, Talonflame enjoys going first with its Flare Blitzes as well, but it's not a Pokemon I would consider hindered by Trick Room to give specific team mates mention for the sake of them being able to reverse it. I think Trevenant can still garner a mention here, but I'm not too keen on letting Slowbro and Chandelure getting specific mentions considering Rotom-w and Tyranitar are big enemies of both.
  8. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    i see. OK. I will implement those too. I was called away so I haven't hade the chance to implement the others yet, so I will be starting now.
    Edit: do you think that Wacan berry deserves a mention to let it take Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Heat's Thunderbolts?
    Edit 2: I'm going to keep the all out offense and standard sets seperate due to a: the lack of U-turn on the offensive set with Charti Berry, and b: the different EV spreads for the 2 sets.
    Edit 3: I have changed up the EV spread on the standard set to enable Talonflame to take Tyranitar's Rock Slide and not die to the sandstorm chip damage.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  9. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    K. I've made changes. Awaiting response.
  10. Laurel

    Laurel Never Too Late
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,191
    I really think in the 2nd set the only slashes in the 4th slot should be Sleep Talk then Tailwind. I don't see any of the other moves having any use whatsoever. Also, I think the 3rd set "All Out Offense" should be SD. I think the sets should go, Standard, CB, then SD. Finally, in the set details you never explain what the EVs are for.
  11. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    I personally don't see swords dance being very useful on a pokemon like Talonflame in doubles, which is why I have put it in other options. Also, if you read the standard and offensive set, you would see that I have stated the purpose of the EVs on each of the sets, and on the Choice Band set I am doing what TheMantyke has told me to do. Sleep Talk has a random opposing target making it unreliable. Furthermore it doesn't give you prioroty on Brave Bird, which is the main reason to use Talonflame over Staraptor or any other Flying-type that is legal in the VGCs.
  12. Professor Birch

    Professor Birch

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    883
    I feel that you have way to many slashes. Im not sure what other people are saying but you should try to condense.
  13. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,835
    Acrobatics is something sometime useful to have on the Choice Band set, just when you can clear the opp's team but you can't take the recoil of Brave Bird which would kill you. Maybe slash it?
  14. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,507
    Okay, more feed back:

    • Emphasize what the 84 Speed on Talonflame does; IE allows you to quick guard any Kangaskhan's fake out and be able to outspeed any Mega Kanga's Sucker Punch on the turn it goes Mega.
    • Again I don't see the point of the now third set since it's remarkably similar to the second. I'd like to see it removed and some of the options specific to that set (like Mild + Overheat) moved to other options
    • You're pretty slash heavy on the first set. I would like to see the final slot reduced to Protect / Quick Guard
    • Same slash heavy problem on the Choice Band set. I would leave the last few slots as Me First / Aerial Ace / Acrobatics, then emphasize in the moves section that the last slot is mainly filler and that any number of support options can be used for a one off use / to bluff a non-choice set.
    What? lol Remove the bolded part please.
    • Mention Garchomp in your team options, they make a really nasty offensive core
    • Also give Mega Kangaskhan a shout out since it can give Talonflame some leeway to atttack / set up Tailwind
    • The reason Steel Wing is not used is because of it's horrible damage output, even against what it hits super effectively. Touch on that as the main reason and not accuracy.
    • You have Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Swagger, Sunny Day, Taunt, Roost and Double Team listed as support options Talonflame can try. Remove all of those but Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Roost, but don't speak of them as an option to discard. They're all quite useful.
    • You keep mentioning Talonflame has a tiny movepool. Specify it has a tiny offensive movepool; it's supportive movepool is pretty darn good.
  15. Biosci

    Biosci !
    is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a VGC3 Winner

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,470
    Just a good note also for using Quick Guard Talonflame. Using max Speed actually saved me a few times on battle spot against Perish Trap teams with Raichu thanks to Talonflame getting the speed tie against Raichu's Fake Out t1 with Quick Guard(I didn't even know it was a speed tie until the Raichu outsped me later and tbolted my Talonflame lol). REALLY situational use, but having max speed should at least be mentioned in any set that has Quick Guard slashed.

    Also threads in the VGC forum only need 2 QC checks. Add TheMantyke's changes and I'll give it a look at and approve it maybe.
  16. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    Raichu is pretty much nonexistant due to the existence of Manectric who has more offensive presense before it mega evolves while still having access to Lightningrod until it does so, and when it mega evolves it gets the oh-so-powerful-in-doubles Intimidate.

    I see. OK. I'll implement the changes. However, I don't see the point of Arial Ace on the choice band set as Arial Ace is always laughably weak. However, I do agree that Acrobatics has utility in cleaning up, as well as helping in the rare event of Talonflame having its Choiice Band removed.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014
  17. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    OK. Changes made.
  18. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,507
    It sees some limited usage since it has a few things going for it like Lightning Rod and Fake Out with a great speed tier. I agree with Biosci that max speed with Quick Guard deserves a quick mention among the set comments that maximum speed investment can help you in blocking all Fake Outs up to Raichus which speed ties.

    Again, this last slot is filler and isn't too huge a decision. Having your item removed is pretty rare considering you're using a Choice Band and Knock Off is pretty rare, so in the also rare but more common situation where you'd need to attack an opponent with a priority flying-type attack without taking recoil damage, Aerial Ace would be the better option for the roughly 9% increase in power.
  19. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    OK. I'll slash Aerial Ace with Acrobatics and Me First. I'll also make a quick mention to Raichu in set comments, but I'll mention that it isn't very common so preparing for it isn't recommended.
  20. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,507
    Don't make the comment so much about Raichu as beating nearly other fake out user with Quick Guard with max speed and Adamant sans the tie with Raichu and losing to Weavile.
  21. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    OK. I've made the changes.
  22. TheMantyke

    TheMantyke DISRESPECT YOUR SUPERIORS
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus
    VGC Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2007
    Messages:
    5,507
    Please remove mention of Acrobatics from the first set and then:

    QC 1/2
  23. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    OK. Thanks for the check! Bring on numero dos (number two)
  24. lucariojr

    lucariojr goodra will hunting
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,471
    id actually like to see tailwind>acrobatics in the cb set's slashes, preferably as the main slash. it's arguably the most useful thing you can do with that last slot and can help you bluff a non-choice set while you're relying on the incredibly off chance that your item is gonna get knocked off with acrobatics. otherwise, it's hitting for 55 base power, which is outdamaged by aerial ace of all things. sure you have to switch out afterwards, but that might be for the best to take advantage of tailwind.
  25. gamer boy

    gamer boy

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2013
    Messages:
    889
    I'll put it in for now, but if I see a consensus that I take it out or change the slash ordering I will do as they say.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)