1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Tangela Discussion

Discussion in 'BW NU' started by AyoGabos, May 8, 2012.

  1. AyoGabos

    AyoGabos

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    50
    [​IMG]

    Tangela
    Traits: Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard / Regenerator
    65 / 55 / 115 / 100 / 40 / 60

    In a tier dominated by sheer offensive power, defensive and stall oriented teams are yet to find their true niche. Certain Pokemon, however, have established themselves as defensive tanks capable of disrupting even the most potent of attackers; a prime example of this is Tangela. With its base 115 defense and access to the Regenerator ability, Tangela can wall most of the physical threats in the NU metagame, especially after Eviolite boosts its max EV’d, beneficial-natured Defense to 540!

    The following set is the most prominent defensive set employed by Tangela:

    [​IMG]
    Tangela (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
    Bold Nature (+ Def, - Atk)
    -Sleep Powder
    -Giga Drain
    -Leech Seed
    -Hidden Power Ice

    Tangela and its moveset are downright specialized for disrupting physical attackers. As mentioned above, with Defense reaching 540 with max investment and beneficial nature after Eviolite, Tangela can wall almost any physical attack. Sleep Powder provides a vital sleep-inducing move to annoy opponents beyond belief, while the combination of Leech Seed and Giga Drain ensure health recovery for the already sturdy Tangela. Hidden Power-Ice is essential for damaging Grass types who can completely wall Tangela with their resistance to Giga Drain and immunity to Leech Seed.

    We all know the strength Tangela possesses, yet there are a number of discussion points that arise when talking about Tangela;

    -While being very capable defensively, Tangela suffers from a weak Special Defense stat; what Pokemon compliment Tangela on teams, forming strong cores? Quagsire and Cryogonal come to mind, but teams are beginning to find ways to counter this. Are there any other Pokemon that work well alongside Tangela? With the Regenerator ability, Tangela is allowed to switch-in-and-out with ease, so a defensive compliment is very useful.

    -Does Tangela have any other roles besides being a defensive wall? With access to a 100 base Special Attack stat, could Tangela find a niche as a specially-oriented attacker?

    -Will Tangela see an increased presence in the NU metagame as the prime sleep-inducer now that Jynx is banned?

    -What Pokemon effectively counter Tangela? Magmortar obviously comes to mind, yet with Quagsire as a teammate Magmortar is easily stopped. Are there any Pokemon that can handle both effectively?

    -Which Hidden Power-type best fits Tangela? Ice counters Flying, Grass, and Dragon, while Rock counters Bug, Flying, and Fire.

    Calcs:
    Show Hide

    vs 252 CB Sawk [Close Combat]: 136-162 (40%-48%)
    vs 252 Toxic Orb-Guts Swellow [Brave Bird]: 212-252 (63%-75%)
    vs 252 CB Absol [Sucker Punch]: 94-112 (28%-33%)
    vs 252 CB Emboar [Flare Blitz]: 324-384 (97%-114%)
    vs 252 CB Floatzel [Ice Punch]: 102-122 (30%-36%)
    vs 252 Toxic Orb Ursaring [Facade]: 214-253 (64%-75%)
  2. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    882
    Tangela is definitely going to be on the rise this suspect round, because the loss of Jynx has removed both its competition in Sleep spreading and its most threatening check. I wonder whether a specially defensive set would be of any use as a sort of mixed tank, or whether this is just outclassed by something like Amoonguss. With 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm, it has defensive stats of 334 / 399 / 294, while an Amoonguss with the same level of special bulk gets 432 / 229 / 227, and thus has significantly worse physical defense. At this stage, Amoonguss's movepool and Fighting-resistance are pretty much the only things that would make it better.

    Oh, also, Tangela isn't Grass / Poison, and even if it was, it wouldn't 4x resist Fighting. For laughs, Adamant CB Sawk Close Combat does 10.17 - 11.97% to a Tangela that 4x resists the move. :D
  3. AyoGabos

    AyoGabos

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    50
    Hahahha yeah that's totally my fault; I caught that immediately after I posted this!
  4. Full2Half

    Full2Half

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    195
    All around pretty nice thread. I personally think tangela is a great pokemon, but also can be stopped easily if there is improper teaming behind it. Of course magmortar says hi to any set without HP rock, but magmortar says hi to several things. A good check i would think would be seviper. (commence theorymonning...)

    Seviper @life orb
    modest/timid
    Shed Skin
    252 spA 252 Spe 4 hp
    sludge wave, giga drain, flamethrower, dark pulse


    This set can provide a check to both members of the tangelquag core. Also with access to shed skin, meaning he wont mind sleep as much as some other things would. Heck, one could even run earthquake over dark pulse and make it 52 atk, 200 spA mixed, so as to break flareon, one of tangela's best partners. (this is theorymonning, but it seems perfectly viable, at least to me)
  5. ChaoticaMortis

    ChaoticaMortis

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2011
    Messages:
    518
    Responses in bold.
  6. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Smogon IRC SOPis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
    Mentor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,696
    Choice Specs Tangela looks interesting. Unfortunately, it's very reliant on Eviolite to tank many hits and it's, for the most part, inferior to Specs Exeggutor. Still an interesting idea.

    Specially defensive Tangela sounds like an interesting alternative. I'd use it over a physically defensive spread if special attackers start to become more popular. As of now, however, running all Defense EV's on Tangela is much more efficient.

    I've always wondered what Tangela would be like without Regenerator. It still has that amazing Defense stat, but it has no recovery other than Synthesis/Leech Seed which it has to waste a slot for. Tangela would probably still be good, but wouldn't be as prominent as it is now. Another thing I've also wondered is what NU would be like without Tangela... Tangela walls a lot of common physical attackers; without it, I could see Pokemon such as Tauros, Kanghaskan, and Torterra becoming a lot more popular.
  7. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    882
    0 Def Tangela has a Defense stat of 399.
    252 Def Tangela has a Defense stat of 493, a 23.5% increase.
    252+ Def Tangela has a Defense stat of 540, a 35.3% increase.

    0 SpD Tangela has a Special Defense stat of 174.
    252 SpD Tangela has a Special Defense stat of 268, a 54.0% increase.
    252+ SpD Tangela has a Special Defense stat of 294, a 69.0% increase.

    So investing in Tangela's Special bulk makes much more of a difference than investing in its physical bulk despite the high points increase of the former. Unless that's not what you meant.
  8. Django

    Django
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,818
    I think what DTC meant was the current metagame doesn't really suit a specially defensive Tangela. Its best niche is being able to take on powerful physical threats like Sawk, which it struggles to do without Defense investment. Also, I don't really like its typing for a Sp. Def spread, as there doesn't appear to be anything notable it can beat. It still shouldn't be going anywhere near Magmortar, and is not going to like taking Ice Beams from Cryogonal, Ludicolo, Samurott etc. Scanning the usage stats I really don't see anything that a specially defensive spread would accomplish, and there is a lot more the physical one can do.
  9. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2010
    Messages:
    1,644
    Although Tangela is arguably the sturdiest physical wall available in NU, there are some Pokemon that it just cannot handle (Choice Band Sawk, Emboar, Swellow). This is mainly because it lacks a recovery move, and relies on its three other means of healing (Regenerator, Leech Seed, and Giga Drain). Tangela needs to be used on a defensive core, or more specifically, teamed up with Pokemon that can cover its weaknesses, which makes the best use of its ability.

    I've seen a few different Tangela sets that have been pretty effective. A while ago I tried a set with some special Defense investment, which let it shrug off weaker special attacks. It was... alright, I guess. I don't remember it being all that useful.

    I battled a guy with a Knock Off Tangela yesterday. My god it was a bloody nightmare. Two or three of my Pokemon could have taken it out, but couldn't switch in safely because they'd run the risk of being left itemless.

    One set that's worked really well for me is ProSeed. Running Protect in place of Hidden Power makes Tangela much more difficult to deal with. It can now wear down its checks by using Leech Seed on the switch, then using Protect to stall for an extra turn of damage and healing. This is extremely effective against offensive teams that have no way of healing the damage, and works well on Swellow, Magmortar, anything that is susceptible to residual damage. Protect can also be used to scout the foe's move, and can save Tangela from a surprise Ice Beam, for example.
  10. Amarillo

    Amarillo
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2010
    Messages:
    749
    I always felt that Regenerator is Tangela's biggest strength, but also its greatest weakness. Tangela gives a lot of Spiking opportunities, as in the top spiker Garbodor and top offensive spinblocker Haunter both stuff it pretty badly. With some hazards up, you might as well say that Tangela is not recovering much HP at all--even with just SR and a single layer, it's taking 25% and recovering 33%, a recovery of 8%--it's not much more than lefties recovery. If you have a banded normal-type or some other hard-hitter, it's never recovering ever again, and you can clean up with just about any physical attacker that Tangela was supposed to wall.

    Oh, and 252 hp non-eviolite tangela gets 2hkoed by just about every physical attacker, including tauros and scarf sawk. If you're getting only 1 attack off, you might as well use the more powerful Exeggutor or something. (despite the drop in usage, it's still good!)
  11. Axa

    Axa

    Joined:
    May 14, 2010
    Messages:
    402
    How is taking 8% instead of 25% its greatest weakness? There are just about no downsides to Regenerator.

    And I'll agree that Knock Off is brilliant on Tangela. ProSeed, not so much, since a Sap Sipper will just chew you up and spit you out.
  12. November Blue

    November Blue NO YOUTUBE, I DO NOT WANT TO WATCH VIDEOS AT MAX VOLUME!!
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2010
    Messages:
    1,644
    A Sap Sipper? Some teams don't even run a Sap Sipper. ProSeed is a brilliant strat for Tangela, as it both deals additional damage to the opponent, and heals Tangela. For Stealth Rock-weak switchins such as Magmortar, this is devastating.
  13. 1996ITO

    1996ITO

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2011
    Messages:
    144
    Not wrong? 252 Atk Guts Ursaring (+Atk) Facade vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def) : 49,4% - 58,38%
    2-3 hits to KO.
  14. Django

    Django
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2009
    Messages:
    1,818
    You guys have done two different calcs, one for Guts and one for +2 Quick Feet.

    252Atk Guts burned Ursaring (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 49% - 58% (165 - 195 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 24% chance to 2HKO.

    252Atk +2 poisoned Ursaring (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Tangela (+Def): 65% - 77% (220 - 259 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
  15. Steamroll

    Steamroll resident zombie
    is a Smogon IRC AOp Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    2,342
    If guts ursaring gets a Swords Dance in, it's bye bye Tangela. But Sd Ursaring assrapes anything that tries to switch in.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)