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Tangrowth (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Benlisted, Dec 9, 2010.

  1. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    QC approval from: PK Gaming, Bloo, Bad Ass

    GP checks from: Athenodoros, Aeron Ee1


    [​IMG]

    Tangrowth Dex

    [Overview]
    <p>Though a firm UU last generation, Tangrowth received a very useful new toy with the onset of BW with Regenerator as his Dream World ability. With higher physical bulk than Forretress or Skarmory, he can readily put this newfound ability to use as an often overlooked physical tank. The advent of Drought Ninetales and Growth becoming a Swords Dance and Nasty Plot combined under the sun also makes Tangrowth a more viable Chlorophyll abuser than ever before. Although other Grass-types offer him some stiff competition due to his lackluster Speed and Special Defense, he has a drastically better physical movepool than all of them, as well as excellent abilities in Regenerator and Chlorophyll, providing him with a definite niche in the new metagame.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Physical Tank
    move 1: Sleep Powder
    move 2: Power Whip / Giga Drain
    move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Earthquake
    move 4: Leech Seed
    ability: Regenerator
    nature: Relaxed
    item: Leftovers
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Tangrowth’s physical bulk is very impressive - here reaching 404 HP and 383 Def - and this set abuses Regeneration to keep him around for as long as possible. Sleep Powder is essential to deal with a possible counter or check, and under the new mechanics, this can be a huge blow to would-be counters. Power Whip is Tangrowth’s strongest reliable STAB option, which still hits Rock-types like Tranitar hard under sandstorm. Giga Drain can, however, be useful for additional healing, or if you need to hit something hard from the special side. Earthquake hits Fire-types resistant to Grass, whereas Hidden Power Ice hits Dragons and fellow Grass-types. Leech Seed is preferred in the last slot for the extra healing and residual damage on an opponent which Tangrowth greatly appreciates.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>As an alternative STAB attack, Leaf Storm can be used due to its great power and the fact that while abusing Regeneration Tangrowth will be switching out a lot. Stun Spore, Knock Off, and Toxic are alternative support options, with Stun Spore being the most attractive due to the number of fast and powerful sweepers in the current metagame.</p>

    <p>In terms of coverage, if using only one non-STAB attack Hidden Power Ice is probably the best choice, allowing you hit the numerous OU Dragons as well as Grass-types immune to Leech Seed. It still leaves Tangrowth walled by Fire-types, but their frequent use of Air Balloon and dual typings means that Earthquake will often be worthless against them anyway, unless you can repeatedly predict their switches. Running both Hidden Power Ice and Earthquake, and dropping Leech Seed to allow for for better coverage but less healing can be viable, depending on your other Pokemons' needs. If your team can deal with Dragons without Tangrowth, Hidden Power Fire is a possibility over Ice to prevent Ferrothorn from coming in and setting up on this set easily. Focus Blast offers a way to hit Air Balloon Heatran along with being able to decimate Tyranitar, and if going physical or trying to avoid poor accuracy, Brick Break can take its place. However, Focus Blast fails to 2HKO standard Ferrothorn, Air Balloon Heatran can be dealt with by using Sleep Powder or by hitting it as it switches in, and Tyranitar takes a large hit from STAB Power Whip, making a Fighting move generally inferior to the other options.</p>

    <p>Relaxed is the nature of choice since Tangrowth's speed is awful anyway, and the only thing of note he misses out on outpacing is Conkeldurr, though 24 EVs can be moved from Defense to Speed to remedy this. When using a set attacking from only one side of the attacking spectrum, altering his nature to either Impish or Bold would of course be a better option. If not dropping his speed with Relaxed, Tangrowth’s EVs can be adjusted to allow him to outspeed 0 Speed Jellicent, Swampert and Blissey with an alternative spread of 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 Spe. Doing this is possible with Relaxed but requires a total of 140 EVs in Speed, making it inadvisable. If using Hidden Power Ice, remember to counteract the IV drop with an extra 4 EVs.<p>

    [SET]
    name: Chlorophyll Sweeper
    move 1: Power Whip
    move 2: Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Earthquake / Rock Slide
    move 4: Growth / Sleep Powder
    ability: Chlorophyll
    nature: Naughty
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    <p>Although not the fastest Chlorophyll abuser, Tangrowth holds the second highest combined attacking stats of any with this ability, as well as significant bulk even without any investment. Power Whip is present as obligatory STAB, being the prime choice here due to its power, and due to the hard hit on Tyranitar, who always gives sun teams issues. Hidden Power Fire is a great choice in sun, netting you OHKOs on most Grass-types even without a Growth. Earthquake gives powerful coverage on most Fire-types, but Rock Slide can be used instead, still hitting Fire-types hard and Heatran neutrally, but allowing for a super effective hit on the Dragon / Flying-types, all of whom would wall this set otherwise. Growth is preferred on a sun sweeper set, as it boosts both attacking stats two stages when used in sunlight, though Sleep Powder is still viable.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    <p>The EV spread given allows you to just hit the Speed benchmark of 396 in sun when accounting for the 30 Spe IV for Hidden Power Fire. However, switching to a Naive nature will allow you to reach a perhaps more beneficial mark instead, beating, notably, Choice Scarf Heatran and +1 Speed Gyarados. 240 Speed is the required investment to beat these threats with Naive and Hidden Power Fire, letting you add a little more to Special Attack. Even with his speed maximised, Tangrowth still cannot outpace a lot of Choice Scarfers, meaning that their elimination is necessary for him to perform a sweep. A faster Chlorophyll abuser can be used for this role, leaving Tangrowth to clean up with Growth, with good options being Sawsbuck, Venusaur, or Shiftry. Your own fast Choice Scarf user can also do this well, and Dragon-types fare particularly well in sun due to the boost their Fire attacks receive. Naturally, Wobbuffet also does this job extremely well.</p>

    [Other Options]
    <p>Stun Spore and Knock Off are viable on any defensive set, crippling faster switch-ins or threats and removing Leftovers recovery, respectively. Toxic is less desirable due to Tangrowth’s other moves being of rarer distribution and thus more useful to most teams, but is still usable. Sleep Powder is the main reason for these moves being less viable, as its ability to remove one Pokemon from the match almost entirely is often more useful. Amnesia is the final support option that can be utilized, boosting Tangrowth's Special Defense from awful to acceptable levels. However, on a defensive set where it is of use, moveslots are sparse and other coverage or status moves will often prove far more valuable than the extra special bulk would. Synthesis may have been useful on defensive Tangrowth for added recovery, were it not for it being illegal with Regenerator. Using it with a sun-related ability is the only possible option, and is quite viable due to the boosted recovery it offers. Rest and Sleep Talk allows Tangrowth to function as a status absorber, but the lack of two moveslots and inability to control Sleep Powder's use is a huge downfall.</p>

    <p>Most viable attacking moves have been mentioned, aside from Nature Power (mimicking Earthquake in Wifi battles) to replace Earthquake wherever it is used, as it has much greater PP. Unfortunately, it is technically a status move and as such can be Taunted, making Earthquake the superior choice unless you desperately need the extra PP. Tangrowth having access to such a huge array of coverage moves makes a Choice Band set seem attractive, but his appallingly low Speed means his switch-in options are extremely limited and he can be revenge killed very easily. Similarly, a Swords Dance set is possible, but his Speed stops any use for this besides some wallbreaking, where it is outclassed.</p>

    <p>SubSeeding is a possible direction to take Tangrowth in, as with practically every other Grass-type, and given his ability to regenerate health for another Substitute upon switching out, he initially seems a prime candidate. However, his awful Speed and Special Defense let him down despite his physical bulk and 101 Substitutes, meaning Shaymin, for example, often does the job better. In general, Tangrowth sees better use as a defensive pivot, able to repeatedly and easily switch in thanks to his Regenerator ability. If you do choose to run a SubSeed set, Giga Drain is the attack of choice for added healing whilst Hidden Power Fire lets it deal with Ferrothorn - and as per the other sets Sleep Powder can deal with a single other counter, or another support option could be used.</p>

    <p>When abusing Chlorophyll in the sun, Wide Lens can be utilized if you are using several imperfect accuracy moves, but the power drop is significant unless running Growth to make up for it. SolarBeam is also viable on sun sets due to its sheer power, but the surprise factor the first time you use it will often turn against you as Tyranitar begin switching into your STAB and locking you into a charge-up turn. It also restricts Tangrowth you severely in the role of countering Tyranitar and/or Politoed, which he can otherwise perform quite well, and is often crucial on sun teams.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]
    <p>Tangrowth, while incredibly bulky on the physical side, can be dealt a lot of damage by even strong neutral attacks to his weak special side. Anything specially powerful that outspeeds and is able to take most of its attacks without concern can easily switch in and threaten to KO him, with some minor prediction necessary in order to get in safely. However, due to Regenerator, Tangrowth can easily switch out when a counter comes in to wear them down with entry hazards and other damage, while remaining at good health himself, which often means tricky prediction is required to deal with him effectively.</p>

    <p>Fellow Grass-types counter Tangrowth relatively well - Virizion earns a special mention for its resistance to Tangrowth’s STAB, immunity to Leech Seed and Special Defense high enough to shrug off super effective Hidden Powers while setting up Calm Minds. To a lesser extent, Celebi or Breloom can set up on Tangrowth too, and are able to shrug off or avoid any status Tangrowth may throw their way too with Natural Cure and Toxic Orb, respectively. Ferrothorn poses severe problems unless HP Fire is being run due to being immune to almost all the residual damage Tangrowth likes to exploit and being able to set up entry hazards against Tangrowth.</p>

    <p>Any special Fire-type can very easily eliminate Tangrowth, especially if they run Balloon to avoid Earthquake. Heatran in particular is a potent threat due to its ability to easily survive unboosted Focus Blasts, as is Chandelure for being immune to them, and both resist Grass and are immune to Fire attacks. Even worse, however, is Volcarona, who resists Grass, Ice, Fighting, and is neutral to Hidden Power Fire and Earthquake, whilst packing two STABs which can OHKO Tangrowth, and Butterfly Dance to threaten the rest of your team.</p>

    <p>Counters for the Chlorophyll set in the sun include any positive-natured Choice Scarf user with a base Speed of 85 or higher and a super effective move. Notably, a Scarfed Latios or Latias with Hidden Power Fire or Ice will counter him very well. Faster Chlorophyll users with Hidden Power Fire or Ice serve excellently as well, as long as they can get in safely. Politoed and Tyranitar often carry Ice Beam or Flamethrower, respectively, and if able to switch into Tangrowth can take away his Speed boost. Both have higher base Speed than Tangrowth, and can safely OHKO if they manage to switch in, but only if running enough Speed EVs to avoid a possibly Naive Tangrowth from OHKOing the valuable weather setters first.</p>
  2. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Bump due to major update to Skeleton. Because I'm a noob, I'd appreciate being told how to make text hyperlinks and where I can find a moving sprite to add to the post...

    Anyway, all comments are appreciated, but in particular on the first set, which I'm not too sure of. Counters help would be nice too, I was going to write it now but I have to be at work in 8 hours and probably should sleep.
  3. zdrup15

    zdrup15
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    For the animated sprites I usually go here:http://www.arkeis.com/animatedsprites.html but they don't have Tangrowth...

    You can hiperlink by selecting the text, clicking in the world sprite (search it on the same line as the bold sprite) and pasting the ling there.

    I haven't used Tangrowth so this is all the help I can give you...
  4. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    [​IMG]

    Nice analysis.
  5. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    Might want to mention that Synthesis isn't legal with Regeneration anyway.

    Sludge Bomb might merit an OO mention. It's better against other grasses than any HP, but loses you coverage elsewhere.

    Bind is an option (and is up to 85% accuracy in BW), particularly on the subseeding set. I keep meaning to run LS/Sub/SleepP/Wrap with Evo Stone Tangela, to trap Pokemon who want to stay in for Just One More Turn against Leech Seed to put up support moves or whatever.

    Birijion looms large in its counters with defenses and typing to laugh off anything Tangrowth can do and setting up in its face. Mebukijika is similar but Focus Blast can ruin its day.
  6. tomtom5858

    tomtom5858

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    For a Sun-sweeper, TTar is a counter, provided he doesn't switch in on Power Whip. Therefore, Nattorei is a perfect lure for is, as Tangrowth would almost never use PWhip on something with such huge bulk, as well as a 4x resistance to it. TTar resists HP Fire, removes the sun, and can hit back hard with Crunch, Stone Edge, or Pursuit.

    For any of the other sets, Drought Ninetales, or for that matter, any specially based Fire-type attackers, are easy counters.


    Nice job.
  7. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    This is incorrect.

    Firstly, Tangrowth runs one of two moves to cover Nattorei: HP Fire (which TTar can shrug off) and Focus Blast (which it obviously can't). There's also the outside possibility of Earthquake, since it hits Natto for neutral damage. No matter what, Tangrowth certainly runs Power Whip, which OHKOs 252 HP/0 Def TTar.

    Secondly, Tangrowth is a physical wall. Even with no investment in Tangrowth's defenses, CBTar needs two Stone Edges to KO it. Something like Boah's Flamethrower/Ice Beam OHKOs Tangrowth, however.

    Thirdly, sun sweeper Tangrowth is still likely faster than Tyranitar, even in a sandstorm. Tangrowth's base speed is only 11 less, so with 252 speed it will handily outrun non-speed-invested TTars.

    So to counter sunsweeper Tangrowth you'll need a fast, special-attacking Tyranitar and you need to hope that they throw HP Fire at your Nattorei instead of Focus Blast. That's not exactly a hard counter.

    As for TTar versus non-sweeper Tangrowths (which I suspect will be the bulk of them), it beats them the same way it does Skarmory. Random Fire Blasts and Ice Beams ruin Tangrowth's day and a sub still defeats its recovery, but TTar will need a CB and a STAB move to accomplish anything on the physical side. Power Whip is a sure 2HKO.
  8. ParaChomp

    ParaChomp

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    That's why we have Focus Blast and Brick Break, my friend.
  9. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    EDIT: OP updated with changes below.

    Thanks for the kind words and help guys. Will edit in the changes below and add counters shortly. Still a bit hazy on how to make a hyperlink not saying the actual address (facepalm), so anyone clearing up my embarassment there would be nice lol. In terms of other help, anyone who could try out the first set at a reasonably high level and see which moveslot slashes are appropriate or not would be much appreciated, given my lack of skill with stallish teams. Also comments on the length are welcome, as I feel that the last sections in particular may be a bit too detailed.

    Edit: Aha, figured out your post zdrup and managed to link properly XD, thanks!

    Aha, thanks for catching that Synthesis error. Sludge Bomb I'm somewhat dubious about adding even in OO, however, as it's power isn't significantly more than a HP, and being able to damage Nattorei really is crucial given its incredibly high current usage. If I have time I'll see if it gets you any significant KOs on say Celebi or something, but unless that's the case I'll probably leave it out.

    Bind is an excellent suggestion, however, and I'll add it in the AO for the subseed set, with Block as an alternative since it's permanent. I'll mention both your suggestions in the counters section, thanks. I'm also trying to find a place to throw in your TTar beating statistics...

    As MIB says, TTar is a pretty shaky counter unless he's very fast and has a Fire move, but I'm going to put both him and Politoed into counters as with high speed/scarves both can ruin his day. Heatran especially is going to get a special mention lol, but I probably would've forgotten about Tales, so thanks.
  10. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Just gonna bump this to see if anyone has any suggestions - personally I can't see anything to add - and hopefully get some Q/C feedback.
  11. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Is there any reason to use Earthquake over Nature Power? Nature Power transforms into Earthquake but has 16 more PP.
  12. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    I assume primarily because EQ cannot be Taunted (correct me if I'm wrong on that). I'll put it in other options at the very least due to the extra PP, however.
  13. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Good point. I assumed that Nature Power was classified as an attacking move but upon further inspection it is actually "Other".
  14. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Okay, edited in the correct romanised names and mentioned NP. QC input is appreciated :).
  15. The 1 and Only Lady Gaga

    The 1 and Only Lady Gaga

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    Just a nitpick, you mentioned Rock Slide being able to hit Lati@s for neutral damage in the sweeper set, but a resisted Power Whip does more than a neutral Rock Slide to them anyway (90 vs 75).
  16. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Aha, thanks for the catch there, edited into the OP and updated the new tag things. Ready for QC checks imo, if any team members see this.
  17. iDunno

    iDunno

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    The nature should be relaxed on the Defensive set since it utilizes both Special and Physical moves.
  18. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Fair point, I think I edited the moves and forgot to do the same with the nature. Would you advise shifting Impish and Bold to the Additional comments where Relaxed currently is instead (since if using only physical or special moves they are obviously preferable) or keeping them slashed in?
  19. iDunno

    iDunno

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    Nah don't bother keeping either. Tangrowth's speed sucks balls as it is. The only thing you really miss outspeeding is Roobushin, but that can just be remedied by moving 24 evs from Defense/HP into speed. Just mention in additional comments that Impish/bold can be used if you aren't using both Special and Physical attacks and in that case the 24 evs can be moved.

    EDIT: Move the Evs from Defense. It retains more bulk on both sides that way.

    EDIT 2: I just realized that when using HP Ice you need 28 speed evs to outrun Roob due to the loss of a speed IV.

    edit 3 @forte: thats not what it says on the po simulator
  20. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Okay thanks, edited in that change. I've left the advice about outspeeding some other things with 84 Spe on a neutral nature since it can be useful, my concern is if that's getting slightly too specialised for the standard set, however.
  21. Forte.EXE

    Forte.EXE

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    Um, you don't lose a Speed IV with Hidden Power [Ice]. Maybe you meant Hidden Power [Fire]?
  22. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    HP Ice has a variety of different spreads, lowering either Spe alone, Atk+Def, or HP+Def, so not lowering your Speed with it is entirely possible but since you'd lose an extra stat point overall, you may as well run the -Spe one and invest 4 more EVs. Edited in.
  23. Dark_Pokemon

    Dark_Pokemon

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    Another reason to mention Nature power is that it may not trigger anticipation. I realize this is remarkably irrelevent most of the time, and I haven't tested it. Still, if there is ONE person out there using Toxicroak with anticipation who thinks you won't hit it supereffective they'll be in for a surprise. I can't test this as I don't have the game for a while. By the way, good analysis. I am curious what pokemon would use a turn to taunt a Tangrowth but then again I'm new to the mechanics of this generation.

    If this is too nitpicky then sorry. I figured it deserved mention somewhere, if for no other reason than to make people aware of it.
  24. Tacket

    Tacket

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    Use Sun sweep. Use growth for speed, attack, and sp. attack boost, and then watch your arse for fire moves. Putting them to sleep is not neccesary. Instead try Power Whip and SolarBeam.
  25. A Man In Black

    A Man In Black

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    That's terrible advice, you don't need two grass moves and you certainly don't need Solarbeam. There's also already a (better) sun sweeper set in the analysis.

    Since physical Toxicroak can't get past Tangrowth anyway, it's coverage for Anticipation NP Toxicroak, which is so mind-bogglingly rare that I don't think it's a serious issue.

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