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Tangrowth (Specially Defensive)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by bugmaniacbob, Jun 21, 2010.

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  1. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    Hello C&C, sorry for the long hiatus. My exams should be finished by the end of the week, so I felt that it was time to start contributing more again. I was planning to simply add this set into my Tangrowth analysis here, but then QC came along and I thought it would be more appropriate, as a new set, to have it approved first. I'm not exactly certain of all the different aspects of QC yet (particularly these newfangled skeleton sets) so if I'm doing anything wrong, please point it out.

    If this set is approved, I would like to request that this thread be closed so that I may add it directly to my Tangrowth analysis (see above), without having two threads open at once.

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    [​IMG](Heysup)[​IMG] (FlareBlitz)

    [​IMG]
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/tangrowth
    ------------------------

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Power Whip / Leaf Storm
    move 2: Earthquake / Hidden Power Ice
    move 3: Sleep Powder
    move 4: Synthesis
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Careful / Calm
    ability: Chlorophyll
    evs: 136 HP / 120 Atk / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Tangrowth is often looked down upon for his miserable base 50 Special Defense stat, which ordinarily makes him extraordinarily weak to special attacks of all descriptions. To attempt to make Tangrowth make use of this stat would seem, therefore, useless; however, by investing heavily in the special side, Tangrowth can use his resistances and improved defensive capabilities to decent effect, while relying on his immense physical Defense stat to make him a reasonable mixed wall, which is formidable even when uninvested. However, it should be noted that by running this spread, Tangrowth loses the ability to beat extremely strong physical attackers such as Rhyperior and Swords Dance Feraligatr, so be aware of this if you wish to run this Tangrowth set.</p>

    <p>Once again, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Synthesis are good support options that help augment Tangrowth’s role as a wall. Sleep Powder is usually the best option, but if you prefer repeated status or already have a sleep inducer on your team, Stun Spore is worth a look. Leech Seed is also an option if you prefer that method of support. Tangrowth again has to make a serious decision with regard to offensive moves. Power Whip accomplishes the most out of Tangrowth’s STAB options, but its comparatively low accuracy can be a turn-off. Leaf Storm is again an option, but it has a number of faults that can make it a worse option. Not only do you only get one shot with it, which is bad especially on a Tangrowth such as this, which relies a great deal on firepower, but it is also not guaranteed to OHKO specially defensive foes such as Mismagius and Alakazam, whom this Tangrowth should be able to deal with. Most importantly, however, is the fact that you cannot beat Milotic, who is one of the main targets for this set, as after one use, Milotic can easily heal itself with Recover and leave Tangrowth looking useless. It does, however, have the helpful ability to OHKO Slowbro with the 120 EVs in Special Attack. Again, Hidden Power Ice and Earthquake are your coverage options – it is usually best to choose the option that works off the same stat as your STAB option, to avoid splitting EVs.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs are tailored to provide Tangrowth with the maximum capacity for taking attacks on both ends, and thus the Special Defense stat is maximised, which is a great boost to Tangrowth’s ability to take special attacks, which is particularly helpful against bulky Water-types, as Tangrowth is no longer 2HKOed by Ice Beam. It also means that Tangrowth can now survive Timid Mismagius’s Nasty Plot boosted Shadow Ball even with Stealth Rock, and the same rings true for Choice Specs Alakazam’s Psychic. The Attack EVs allow Tangrowth to 2HKO Slowbro and Milotic, and to OHKO Mismagius and Alakazam, with Power Whip after Stealth Rock. The leftover EVs are placed in HP. If you would like, you can run 252 HP / 252 SpD in order to maximise hit-taking ability, but this compromises your ability to hit back, making you lose a big advantage over similar Venusaur. If you decide to run all special attacks, move the offensive EVs to Special Attack and run a Calm nature, and likewise with a mixed set you should run a Sassy nature. With a mixed set, it is advisable that you invest the entirety of your offensive EVs in the same stat as your Grass-type STAB, since the EVs are needed to gain the KOs listed above, whereas Hidden Power Ice, for example, requires no investment to 2HKO Leafeon and OHKO Altaria with Stealth Rock for the most part.</p>

    <p>Although Tangrowth’s ability on the special side is improved, he still can’t deal with a powerful super effective STAB attack, especially from the special side. Hence, Moltres, Blaziken, Houndoom, specially inclined Venusaur and Nidoking, and Weezing all remain problems. To counter the large Fire-type weakness, Milotic or another bulky Water-type is a must, however Milotic is preferable mainly because it can reinforce the special side. Registeel can go along to create a powerful defensive core, and it can also deal with various problem Pokemon such as Scyther, Swellow and Venusaur as well. Nidoking and Toxicroak remain troublesome; However, Toxicroak loses if it lacks a Poison STAB, and your Tangrowth has Earthquake. Milotic can also switch into some Nidoking variants if need be. The combination of Milotic and Registeel should also be enough to beat most Altaria, though be careful with the Rest-Talk set, as they may struggle if Milotic does not have investment in Special Attack.</p>

    <p>As this Tangrowth is more offensive than the standard variant, and in particular relies on its offensive inclination as a chief reason for use over Venusaur, it seems reasonable that, while being of use on stall teams, this Tangrowth can be of good use on bulky offense teams as well, and here your partners should be somewhat different. Bulky Drapion can be helpful as a reasonable switch into Toxicroak, as well as helping to deal with special Venusaur (whom Tangrowth will have the most trouble with), and can act as a semi-reliable check to a number of Tangrowth’s foes - with heavy defensive investment, he can act as a check to most Scyther and Swellow. Not only that, but he also helps to absorb Toxic Spikes, a serious threat to Tangrowth’s effectiveness. Arcanine can be useful along with Milotic to complete the Fire/Water/Grass core – specifically helping to deal with Grass-types such as Venusaur and Sceptile, as well as Weezing. Intimidate is also useful to hold down physical attackers that can beat Tangrowth, such as Scyther.</p>

    <p>As previously mentioned, this Tangrowth loses the ability to defeat certain foes, such as Adamant Rhyperior, who can OHKO with Megahorn + Entry Hazards. Again, Milotic should be helpful here to OHKO with Surf if Tangrowth is too weak to stop it. Leafeon, too, can be a problem with Swords Dance boosted X-Scissor, so a Fire- or Poison-type, such as the aforementioned Arcanine or Drapion, can be helpful to neutralise this threat. More powerful Water-types such as Swords Dance Kabutops and Feraligatr also become problematic, although the combination of Tangrowth and your Water-type should cover this as well for the most part.</p>

    Old Skeleton (open)

    Why this set deserves to be on-site:

    • Allows Tangrowth to take on bulky Water-types to a much greater extent (Standard bulky Milotic and Slowbro cannot 2HKO with Ice Beam, etc.)
    • More Attack EVs than standard to facilitate OHKOs on frailer stuff such as Mismagius and Alakazam, while also giving the ability to 2HKO Slowbro with Power Whip and Stealth Rock more often.
    • Special Defence EVs bolster Tangrowth’s capacity to take special attacks by a considerable degree. Significant EV investment allows Tangrowth to survive +2 Mismagius Shadow Ball and Specs Alakazam Signal Beam even with Stealth Rock, and with the given Attack EVs can OHKO both back with Power Whip and Stealth Rock.
    • Advantages over similar Venusaur: Massive natural physical Defence, meaning that it can take physical assaults from stuff like Azumarill, Feraligatr, Absol, and generally function as a reasonable physical wall while gaining the ability to take resisted special attacks pretty well (though be warned that it loses the ability to take on more powerful stuff with super effective moves, like Rhyperior, as a result). It also has higher Atk and SAtk than Venusaur, so packs a greater offensive threat than defensive Venusaur. As far as typing is concerned, a resistance to Ground and neutrality to Psychic against resistance to Fighting, Dual STAB, and neutrality to Poison and Bug.
    Additional Comments:

    • Attack EVs facilitate notable OHKOs and 2HKOs. Full Special Defence and Careful nature is necessary to make Tangrowth competent on the special side – leftover EVs thrown into HP.
    • Power Whip/Earthquake is usually the most useful offensive combination for reasons given in the other sets (in essence, Power Whip is its most powerful STAB move, Earthquake its most powerful complement, notably hitting Fire, Steel, and Poison for good damage). Rock Slide is an alternative for hitting Fire, Flying, and Bug-types, as well as getting the super effective hit on Altaria. However, when testing this set I found Earthquake to be far more reliable, as Rock Slide’s power and accuracy issues cannot be avoided easily. Being set-up bait for Registeel and Venusaur was pretty poor as well, since Rock Slide can’t 3HKO 4 HP Venusaur with the given EVs where Earthquake usually can, not to mention that it actually fails to 2HKO standard Altaria with Leftovers and Stealth Rock. It’s nice for hitting Moltres or Scyther on the switch or after a Sleep Powder once in a while, but aside from that I prefer Earthquake. Still an option however.
    • Special options (ie. Leaf Storm + Hidden Power Ice) given by Quality Control for the other sets work here as well, I guess. I just don’t really like them for various reasons, they certainly do their job but I’ve always preferred the physical options, mainly for large, consistent power output. Plus, Leaf Storm needs much heavier investment to OHKO Alakazam, Mismagius, and Milotic. Notably, however, Hidden Power Ice can be invaluable for utility against Sceptile and Venusaur. When using special options, shift offensive EVs to the special side and run a Calm nature, naturally.
    • If you're running mixed, go with a Sassy nature. As for EVs, If running Power Whip/HP Ice, you should probably stick witht the same EVs, as HP Ice always 2HKOes 0/0 Leafeon and 252/0 Altaria uninvested, but won't really do anything whatsoever for Venusaur, even with mass investment. Power Whip needs this investment to maintain important OHKOes, as explained above.
    • I would add an option for a more simple spread of 252HP/4Atk/252SpD; it gives you more special survivability overall in theory, and allows you to survive hits much more comfortably (ie. more HP to spare), but I generally found the extra offensive power provided by the spread above to be more useful. The difference is generally minor, and both are useful in their own situations, but I felt I should hear QC's opinion first.
    • Sleep Powder and Synthesis for team support and survivability respectively. Leech Seed is an option over either to combine team support and recovery, and can help the rest of your team to deal with switch-ins such as Moltres.
    • Leftovers a given. Ability doesn’t really make a difference.
    • Other Options: Stun Spore is an option over Sleep Powder if your team already has a sleep-user (though this is perhaps unlikely as the only other really 'reliable' sleep-users in UU are other Grass-types, who you don't really want to be using alongside Tangrowth).
    Teammates and Counters:

    • Still can’t deal with a powerful super effective STAB attack, especially from the special side. Hence, Moltres, Blaziken, Houndoom, specially inclined Venusaur and Nidoking, and Weezing all remain problems.
    • To counter the large Fire-type weakness, Milotic or another bulky Water-type is a must, however Milotic is preferable mainly because it can reinforce the special side. Registeel can go along with them to create a powerful defensive core, and it can also deal with various problem Pokemon such as Scyther, Swellow and Venusaur as well. Nidoking and Toxicroak remain troublesome – Tangrowth may need backup to deal with Nidoking, but usually beats most variants lacking Sludge Bomb. Similarly, Toxicroak loses if it lacks a Poison STAB, and your Tangrowth has Earthquake. Milotic can also switch into some Nidoking variants if need be. The combination of Milotic and Registeel should also be enough to beat most Altaria, though be careful with the Rest-Talk set, as they may struggle if Milotic does not have investment in SpA.
    • Bulky Drapion can be helpful as a reasonable switch into Toxicroak, as well as helping to deal with special Venusaur (whom Tangrowth will have the most trouble with), and can act as a semi-reliable check to a number of Tangrowth’s foes, depending on how it is EV’d (ie. With heavy physical Defence investment, can act as a check to most Scyther and Swellow).
    • A defensive Fire-type such as Arcanine can be useful along with Milotic to complete the Fire/Water/Grass core – specifically helping to deal with Grass-types such as Venusaur and Sceptile, as well as Weezing. Intimidate is also useful to hold down physical attackers that can beat Tangrowth, such as Scyther.
    • Tangrowth loses the ability to defeat certain foes, such as most Rhyperior, who can OHKO with Megahorn + Entry Hazards. Your bulky Water-type should be helpful here. Leafeon can be a problem with SD + X-Scissor, so a Fire- or Poison-type can be helpful to neutralise this threat. More powerful Water-types such as SD Kabutops and SD Feraligatr also become problematic, although the combination of Tangrowth and your Water-type should cover this as well for the most part.


    -------------------------------

    Post-critique changes: (none so far)
  2. cim

    cim happiness is such hard work
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    Is Leech Seed an option over Synthesis?
  3. FlareBlitz

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    I think you should mention and emphasize that people really can't be using this to wall things that they would with the standard Tangrowth. Rock Polish Rhyperior ohkos you with Megahorn some of the time with just Stealth Rock down, with the kill guaranteed if there's spikes, some residual damage, or if it's Adamant. SD Leafeon 2hkos you with +2 Return, Feraligatr ohkos you with +1 Ice Punch, etc. I'm mentioning all this because I don't want people to think "hey it's like a tangrowth but now with special defense" like they do with Slowbro v Slowking sometimes (can't count the number of Slowking I've ohko'd with CB Rhyperior's Earthquake).

    Besides that, I agree with Chris is me that Leech Seed should get a mention, although possibly not over Synthesis; reliable recovery is too important. Maybe over Sleep Powder? For teams that already have sleep or other status going on (like burn).
  4. bugmaniacbob

    bugmaniacbob Floats like a Butterfree, stings like a Metapod
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    All changes duly noted and mentioned, many thanks. However, I didn't think that Leech Seed was really worth a slash, as I have almost always found both Sleep Powder and Synthesis to be irreplaceable, however it should be mentioned in set/additional comments.

    Anything else?
  5. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Changes are good. I'll get on testing this, but I'm terrible at stall or stallish balance, which seems like the best kind of team for this, so I encourage other people to test it as well.
  6. Heysup

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    [​IMG]

    Looks good. I like how I don't have to use two Pokemon to cover Milotic, Azumarill, Feraligatr, and Torterra.

    You may want to slash in HP Ice, though, while I think Power Whip should stay. HP Ice helps with Leafeon and others.

    EDIT: It is mentioned Stellar.
  7. Stellar

    Stellar
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    I would definitely mention using Sassy with Leaf Storm in place of Power Whip. Being able to hit hard and function even when burned is pretty cool (this of course would also require an EV change). Seconding HP Ice as well.
  8. ToF

    ToF
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    I don't like this set at all. For one thing, you lose out on the ability to counter things like LO SD Feraligatr; you're sacrificing countering more dangerous offensive threats for covering something like Milotic. Come on, that makes like zero sense. I've tested something like this, although with considerably less special defensive EV's, and I hated it so much that I had to go back to almost max/max.
  9. Heysup

    Heysup Monsters are dangerous and kings are dying like flies.
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    It should be noted that I actually tested this with offense (bulky offense). I think it's far more effective since tanks are needed for Pokemon such as Milotic as opposed to random Pokemon like SD LO Feraligatr which are beaten by other Pokemon.
  10. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    The entire idea behind this Tangrowth is that you should not expect it to counter hard-hitting physical attackers anymore; that's why I had bmb emphasize that in his writeup. If you run into an SD Feraligatr just switch Haze Milotic or Weezing or defensive Rotom or something into it. The advantage of being able to reliably switch into Milotic and Slowbro and being able to tank some hard special hits could be worth it to some people if they already have the physical spectrum covered and need a specially-oriented grass type that can still deal with Torterra and Azumarill and doesn't have a lol base 80 ATK stat.
  11. franky

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    Leaf Storm should probably claim the first option over Power Whip. You are switching into Milotic and Slowbro -- both take a sizable chunk from Leaf Storm and Slowbro has a high chance of dying (89.8% - 105.6%). I really don't see the point of having the EV spread like that. I think you should capitalize on maximising its Special bulk by going 252/252 tbh. Tangrowth hits considerably hard anyways even with minimal investment.
  12. cim

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    With Leaf Storm, all your opponent has to do is switch to a Grass resist to absorb it once and then Milotic or Slowbro can just come in on Tangrowth and take it. I don't see why this kind of Tangrowth would only be attacking once.
  13. bugmaniacbob

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    @ Franky: Pretty much what CIM said. I really don't like being rendered utterly useless offensively after having used one move, especially with something like Tangrowth, who is supposed to be sticking around. I also prefer Power Whip because you can OHKO special sweepers such as Mismagius with it where they survive Leaf Storm.

    Not to mention that Milotic almost always beats you if you have Leaf Storm. You need Stealth Rock down and a hell of a lot of luck to OHKO Milotic, and if you don't, Milotic is faster and can just use Recover. You now can't really do anything to stop Milotic just Recovering off damage as you hit it with less and less powerful Leaf Storms. Also, what calc were you using for Slowbro vs. LeafStorm? I did the same calc on Smogon and got 111.2% - 131%.

    As for the EVs, I agree that 252/252 is a worthwhile option, but I prefer the offensive EVs as it allows Tangrowth to OHKO/2HKO more stuff (Alakazam, Mismagius, Slowbro spring to mind). 252/252 is already mentioned in Additional Comments. It's all really a matter of preference.
  14. FlareBlitz

    FlareBlitz This was never a story that would have a happy end
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    Changes look good.

    KOFFING!

    [​IMG]
  15. bugmaniacbob

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    From the QC Documentation Thread:

    Does this mean that this is approved now, or do I need another stamp thing?
  16. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon maybe I just misunderstood
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    This is now approved. Moving.
  17. bugmaniacbob

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    Now that this set is officially approved, I am locking this thread so that I can add this set directly to my Tangrowth analysis here. All grammar checks there are appreciated.

    If a moderator sees this, please move this thread to the Locked/Outdated Analyses subforum to stop it cluttering the UU subforum. Thank you.
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