1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

DPP OU Team Antimatter (Joint RMT)

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Kevin Garrett, Oct 12, 2008.

  1. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,296
    Team Antimatter

    Overview:
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Intro:
    This team was originally created to counter a majority of the Shaymin users in the early stages of the Platinum metagame. Ironically, it utilizes Shaymin to accomplish its goal. Limitless and I have used this team with success on Shoddy Battle, attaining a rating of 1650 and 1660, respectively. This post basically retires the team due to its predictability on the ladder. Since the initial intention was to surprise people, it would be better to make an entirely new team.

    Game Plan:
    The effectiveness of this team was its element of surprise. In the dawn of the Platinum metagame, lead Scarf Heatrans and Shaymin were quickly knocked out by Shaymin. Other common leads have trouble with Scarf Shaymin, bar Tyranitar and Bronzong. Each Pokemon has their own role in taking out or setting up on specific Pokemon. Their typing forms a vast network of resistance that can handle almost every offensive threat. The role of each Pokemon is explained in the team work section.

    In Depth:
    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-S @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
    Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Description: Scarf Shaymin has unparalleled speed. Since this variation can't overwhelm its counters, it is used as an anti-lead and late-game sweeper. Aside from Air Slash, which can occasionally chain flinches, it isn’t meant to be staying power (more like a trump card). Seed Flare 2HKOs Zapdos with Stealth Rock in play, providing a special defense drop is applied. Earth Power is mainly for fooling Heatran and Hidden Power Fire takes care of Scizor, Skarmory, ect.

    EVs: This is a standard EV spread. There is enough speed to outspeed Timid Scarf Gengar and Deoxys. It has max speed to tie other Scarf Shaymin.

    Team Work: Shaymin takes care of many common leads, such as Gengar, Deoxys, Heatran, Machamp, Yanmega, Salamence, ect. Despite having a lack of versatility, it functions well in the late-game atmosphere. Shaymin can rip through weakened teams to close the game safely. Along with Heatran, the duo work well by covering each other’s weaknesses and resetting their attacks.

    [​IMG]
    Mamoswine (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Snow Cloak
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge
    - Ice Shard
    - Earthquake

    Description: Mamoswine’s main function is to set up Stealth Rock. After that, its role varies based on the situation of the match. Stone Edge is useful damage to get on Rotom or Zapdos. Ice Shard tames Salamence and other threats like Shaymin. Earthquake works great against Adamant Lucario, non-Scarfed Heatran, and Tyranitar.

    EVs: The EVs are standard once again. Jolly nature allows me to outspeed Adamant Lucario and defensive Zapdos.

    Team Work: Stealth Rock is a vital part of helping my sweepers clean up late-game. Along with Heatran, it covers Zapdos that threaten Shaymin. The Electric-type resistance is huge for absorbing Thunderbolt, Discharge, and Thunder Wave. Without immunity to those moves, it’s difficult to fend off Blissey, Cresselia, Rotom, and others. Mamoswine is also useful for revenge kills against things a variety of different Pokemon. He is usually a safe switch against Salamence and comes in to give Dugtrio, Tyranitar, and Shaymin problems.

    [​IMG]
    Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 24 Atk/232 Spd/252 SAtk
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Close Combat
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Fire Blast
    - Grass Knot

    Description: Infernape is the wall breaker on this team. Many teams find themselves in a pickle confronting this guy after their Pokemon have been weakened. Close Combat covers Blissey and does a significant amount of damage to many neutral Pokemon. Hidden Power Ice takes care of Gliscor and Salamence without a Scarf or DD. Fire Blast is usually the attack of choice since it does a number on Zapdos, Rotom, and Skarmory. If Cresselia has seen anything more than 1 SR, then it can’t typically switch in on an Infernape’s Fire Blast. Grass Knot offers important Water- and Ground-type coverage to an extent. Its main use is against Swampert and weakened Hippowdon and Milotic.

    EVs: Infernape gets just enough speed EVs to outspeed everything in or below the 105 base stat range. Max special attack and the rest of the EVs are thrown into attack. Pretty standard.

    Team Work: Infernape tends to be the star of the show, especially against defensive teams. Teams without an effective counter tend to switch around to weaken Infernape with Life Orb recoil. Infernape does his job mid-game to clear a path for Shaymin or Heatran.
  2. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Battling 101 Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,081
    [​IMG]
    Zapdos @ Leftovers
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP/220 Def/36 Spd
    Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Thunderbolt
    - Heat Wave
    - Roost
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Description: Zapdos really got a major boost from all of the Platinum updates with the addition of Heat Wave. Hidden Power Grass is for the obvious Swampert, which my team does not like in stall wars. This spot used to be held by Scizor, however with so many Heatrans present, it kind of was a nuisance.

    EV's: The EV’s are fairly standard for the Calm variant. I wanted a more defensive approach to fill in all the loose gaps that were inhibiting our team. I can’t really say much about the EV’s, why reinvent the wheel.

    Team Work: Zapdos brings a unique sense of role play when it comes to its team work. It makes sure that certain pokemon don’t get free set ups for a sweep. Many times Zapdos saves my ass against many Lucarios, Scizors, etc. With many of them running rampant in this metagame, Zapdos seemed like a staple. Heatran before, used to be my only lines of defense against opposing Scizors. I quickly changed this after many of the Scizors Superpowered right off the bat.


    [​IMG]
    Heatran (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Spd/252 SAtk/4 HP
    Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Earth Power
    - Explosion

    Description: Like for most teams Heatran gives speed and resistances all in one. Fire Blast is for Stab and the occasional Flash Fire bonus. Hidden Power Ice for the obvious Dragons and for any time that I don’t feel like risking a accuracy hax miss from Fire Blast. Explosion is for last case scenarios.

    EV's: Once again, I went very standard when it came to the EV’s. I went with max speed due to the fact that I want to out speed all other Heatrans. Max Special Attack was an easy choice also since I don’t really want to invest too much in Explosion when my main primary attacks will be Special.

    Team Work: Heatran also provides protection against the ever so popular Scizor and somewhat protection against Lucario. While being able to withstand Ice Shards from countless counters to Skymin, he is a pokemon that I rely on a great deal of the time for revenge killing and stuff of the sort.


    [​IMG]
    Kingdra (M) @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sniper
    EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Substitute
    - Waterfall
    - Outrage

    Description: I must thank all of you who don’t use Substitute on Kingdra. For I get off so many Subs. when people try to status Kingdra whether it be for burn, sleep, or paralysis. It also shields me from the ever so popular Ghosts trying to use Trick on Kingdra when I am setting up. Dragon Dance, Waterfall, and Outrage are self explanatory.

    EV's: I probably could have put a little bit of EV’s into HP, but I just felt that I needed the extra speed to speed tie Scarf Heracross. While Speed is important, Attack is just as harmful on the offensive end. For after a Dragon Dance, Outrage can deal a whole load of damage.

    Team Work: Kingdra is really the meat of the team. I use it to soften up my opponents team so that the rest of my sweepers can well… sweep. If I don’t get Kingdra to at least sweep 2-6 pokemon, I have a much harder time winning the game. Obviously prediction and timing is key for Kingdra to sweep effectively. As I said before, Substitute is really what makes this set work.



    Threat List:

    Tyranitar: Mamoswine, Infernape, and Skymin can pretty well take care of Life Orb versions. Dragon Dance versions are a little more tricky. However, most carry Life Orb, so Skymin can just come in and use Seed Flare when Tyranitar is at low enough health.
    Gyarados: At first, Kingdra is the counter, afterwards I just revenge kill it.
    Infernape: Infernape is normally just revenge killed by Heatran, Skymin, or countered to a degree by Zapdos.
    Azelf: Heatran covers everything this thing can do. Otherwise, it is revenge killed.
    Rhyperior: Constant 2x and 4x Attacks wear this guy down easily.
    Electivire: Pretty much revenge killed. Ape does a job on him too.
    Salamence: Mamoswine does a number on him. Otherwise revenge killed.
    Togekiss: Zapdos counters Togekiss quite effectively. Mamoswine is also useful depending on the variant of Togekiss.
    Gengar: Heatran and Zapdos take Gengar down. Revenge killed also.
    Raikou: Mamoswine normally takes Raikou out. However I haven’t dealed with any as of late.
    Lucario: Zapdos can handle Lucario barring Ice Punch. Otherwise revenge killed by Heatran.
    Starmie: Zapdos for the most part. Revenge killed also.
    Weavile:Heatran and smart switching really takes Weavile down.
    Dugtrio: Smart switching is key.
    Alakazam: Zapdos and revenge killing.
    Porygon-Z: Heatran + revenge killing.
    Medicham:Depending on the set, mostly revenge killing.
    Staraptor: Mamoswine and mostly revenge killing.
    Slowbro: Kingdra sets up on Slowbro quite well.
    Machamp: Skymin, and plenty of hits.
    Jolteon: Mamoswine for the most part.
    Aerodactyl: Most are leads, so I just Seed Flare first turn while they taunt or SR. Then I kill next turn.
    Snorlax: Any physical attacks really.
    Zapdos: Smart switching between Mamoswine and Heatran.
    Blissey: Kingdra can set up on Blissey.
    Suicune: Kingdra can set up on Suicune.
    Sceptile: Zapdos I suppose. I haven’t had to deal with one yet.
    Breloom: Smart switching and revenge killing.
    Slaking: Smart switching.
    Tangrowth: Infernape and Skymin do a number on him.
    Ninjask: Mamoswine really denies all attempts at a pass.
    Metagross: Agility Gross can be a problem, but Kingdra for those types. Revenge kill otherwise.
    Heatran: Major set up fodder for Kingdra.
    Celebi: Infernape and set up fodder for Kingdra.
    Jirachi: Heatran, Ape, Mamo, Kingdra, Skymin, and Zapdos. Not really a problem…
    Deoxys-S: Revenge killed with either Skymin or Mamoswine. Smart switching if I have to.
    Skymin: Revenge killed.
    Main Rotom Forms: Heatran, Infernape, and Kingdra all in conjunction do a fair job.

    Conclusion:
    After weeks of abusing this team, we have finally come to a broken road. Our prized anti-metagame team was finally coming to a halter. For you see, through these few weeks, we have acknowledged the fact that anti-metagame teams actually do work. However, only until the metagame shifts back. As with Husk's offensive team, most of the counters that we have listed are revenge killed. Most of you know that offensive teams rely soley with resistances and the users ability to effectively use the team. I urge all of you to try out this team, though not as effective as before, to see as Husk said, how offensive teams can still be effective.
  3. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2006
    Messages:
    2,430
    Yeah, this really is an anti-metagame team, or used to be. Now every team I see looks identical to this one, before you even posted this.

    Your threat list is a little off in the amount of pokemon you say Kingdra can set up on. I use the same set, with more HP EVs and Kingdra has an awfully tough time setting up on Blissey and Celebi, as you will only get 1 dance because Grass Knot and Seismic Toss always break your subs, and then it becomes on a guessing game on when to sub so you don't get T-Waved. In terms of weaknesses, you have most things covered. I just absolutely hate Scarfheatran because of how brutally easy it is to wall the shit out of it and set up shit on it.
  4. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Battling 101 Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,081
    When I set up on Blissey for the most part, they Thunder Wave when I Sub. After that, I Dragon Dance. Normally a guessing game after wards. 2 OHKO on Blissey with Outrage.

    On to the case of Celebi. Kevin agrees with you, however I still find ways to set up on it. Once again for the most part, they Leech seed or Thunder Wave when I Sub. Following that I Dragon Dance when they GK or Psychic or w/e. I then do a guessing game with Sub/Outrage. Basically it is a 2 OHKO most of the time.

    Kevin and I have been using this team since the maybe 2nd day the Platinum updates came out. We have caught a lot of copiers. However we are glad that in a sense we set the trend to many people.
  5. gorm

    gorm
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    1,191
    air slashing deoe leads must be fun ... i just want to ask about zapdos' evs/nature, i'm just gonna assume it's supposed to be bold. if you actually want the stats you have, 124 def evs and 84 sdef evs or something give you the same + a couple.

    i like this in that it has most threats covered despite being an offensive team. you have checks to most stuff save gyara for whom you have to rely on a skymin revenge kill post dd

    honestly i love maxing sub kingdra's hp ust to live through random unstab ice beams.
  6. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,296
    It's definitely harder to set up on Celebi because Grass Knot does a significant amount of damage. You also need to use Outrage to be able to 2HKO it, which guarantees that you'll end up confused after they Recover. The best thing you can do in a 1v1 against Celebi is DD up until you can only live one more Grass Knot and spring an Outrage on it for 75%+. However, that's a lousy scenerio because Kingdra is needed to sweep at least one or two Pokemon.

    Blissey is a little bit easier to deal with because Seismic Toss and Thunder Wave are the worst things you're looking at. Waterfall can 2HKO, so you can sit their all day while they try to recover with Softboil or Wish/Protect. The only thing needed to beat Blissey is to play around Thunder Wave. That's why I see it as being easier. I'm not sure what Limitless has in mind for being able to take down Celebi, but I see it as a waste (considering we have Infernape, Heatran, Zapdos, Shaymin).

    Air Slashing Deo is fun. On average, the best they can get out of it is one move, which they normally waste on Light Screen (only to get flinched for the rest of its health). If anyone is ever in a scenerio with Deoxys like this, I suggest you Stealth Rock. That's your best chance to get it up unless. Of course, sometimes they get nothing or I miss and they get to use two moves. Going back to Shaymin flinching being fun, it is always funny to see the opponent's response (since they always have one). Usually it is a complaint or an insult, but the joke is really on them since it isn't really hax when the odds are in your favor. It would be funny if people started complaining when Hypnosis hit. It is virtually the same thing, except factoring in a miss with Air Slash.

    Gyarados can be a problem, depending upon the scenerio. If I've tallied up all the Gyarados I've encountered with this team, I'd say more than half have be Taunting BulkyDos. This is much easier to handle. DD LO Gyarados can be challenging. BulkyDos will always end up eating an Outrage from Kingdra, which will guarantee that nothing more than one Pokemon will be knocked out. Sometimes, Kingdra can even finish it off. DD LO Gyarados requires Shaymin to pull off a bit of magic. Of course, when Stealth Rock is up before Gyarados comes in, it makes this a lot easier to cope with.

    Your suggestion for Kingdra sounds interesting. I can foresee that some times I would love having the extra HP and other times I would wish I had more attack. With this spread, it can take an Ice Beam from the standard Cresselia and be able to maintain the sub. However, the same can't be said for Vaporeon. That does about 29% damage.
  7. Vincent_Valentine_4

    Vincent_Valentine_4

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2008
    Messages:
    32
    Yeah I almost want to try throwing max hp evs in and also watch for sub calm mind cune that can beat Kingdra I had it happen to me once but I could have possibly ohkoed it but my Kingdra was confused and hit itself but cune isn't used to much lately so it could be dealt with. Also a really defensive team could probably do a number if played right.
  8. Articanus

    Articanus

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Messages:
    1,032
    Normally I'd go on and on about your cresselia weakness and how I would use SubSeed Skymin over yours, but then I see that this is a retired team that was purposely made to counter the original Platinum metagame so I won't count against you really, since the plethora of Scizor have killed its overall usage.

    In general, this is a good example of quickly adapting to the metagame, which is why you probably had such huge success with it.
  9. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 12 Championis a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,296
    Indeed, this team began with Scizor over Zapdos. But as Heatran usage exponentially rose, Zapdos seemed to be more relevant. The first version team we came up with had Shaymin as a SubSeeder, but it never met its full potential in that team. We also tried playing around with swaping Shaymin out for Scizor since it became obvious that Shaymin was scarfed.
  10. Pride

    Pride

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    Messages:
    295
    Just posting to say I enjoyed a lot of success with this when you gave it to me a month ago. I did make a few changes to the team, some of which have been mentioned by other members here. I maxed out Kingdra's hp, reduced the speed to 246, and went with Swift Swim over Sniper... that was after a massive rape from a Rain Dance team.. The extra bulk was a welcomed addition. I ended up dropping Mamoswine for Zapdos and gave Scizor Superpower for overzealous Heatran switches. I always thought Mamo was the weakest member to this team but I did notice that losing Mamo did cause thunder wave to be a problem and I did lose SR but I felt the changes were an improvement... I guess just the effect of changing members. The lack of a good electric immunity has been impossible to replace since the banning of Garchomp... Excellent job on this team.
  11. Limitless

    Limitless Success is the best revenge.
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
    Battling 101 Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,081
    I'll agree with you to a degree. I will admit that sometimes I have trouble with Cressilia, but if I play smart against it, I normally don't have a problem with it. That being said, Calm Mind Cressilia can be issues without Heatran blowing up on it. However, even that doesn't deal a whole load of damage to it. My best bet is to not let it set up. That could be said for any pokemon though.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)